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Awesome-X
05-02-2014, 02:03 PM
This battle is between Doctor Doom using a Cosmic Cube and Thanos with the Reality Gem. Both are from Earth-616.



Scenario 1: No prep, they start 100 feet from each other and can't start the battle until the bell rings.


Scenario 2: Both have 24 hours of prep, they cannot attack each other during this time and can only use their Items (Cosmic Cube/Reality Gem) to help them prep.



Both of them are in "character".

Surtur
05-02-2014, 05:29 PM
Well, I would think the reality gem would be pretty powerful. On the other hand I'd like to think a cosmic cube would, overall, be superior to any single infinity gem. At the same time, Thanos is granted FTL reflexes, so he will be able to activate his first. So the cube might be more potent, but if Doom is too slow to use it then..well, he is screwed I guess.

As for your second fight I'd just say Doom probably stomps then since you gave him prep. Or maybe Thanos is one of the few who could rival him. You say they can only use their items to prep, but they could use those items to essentially give themselves a lab, allowing them to work on whatever they wanted. So you really haven't limited them from anything.

So I'd say Thanos wins the first scenario, but Doom wins the second.

MidTierHero
05-02-2014, 06:01 PM
Doom wins. The Cube is more powerful.

moonknight11
05-02-2014, 06:42 PM
Well, I would think the reality gem would be pretty powerful. On the other hand I'd like to think a cosmic cube would, overall, be superior to any single infinity gem. At the same time, Thanos is granted FTL reflexes, so he will be able to activate his first. So the cube might be more potent, but if Doom is too slow to use it then..well, he is screwed I guess.

As for your second fight I'd just say Doom probably stomps then since you gave him prep. Or maybe Thanos is one of the few who could rival him. You say they can only use their items to prep, but they could use those items to essentially give themselves a lab, allowing them to work on whatever they wanted. So you really haven't limited them from anything.

So I'd say Thanos wins the first scenario, but Doom wins the second.

Last I heard, Mod rulings aren't being carried over. We got rebooted.

Guy Smiley
05-02-2014, 07:28 PM
Eh, I dunno if I'd put a Cube higher than a Gem. Probably depends on the Gem's era, as the Gems slowly got nerfed.

But back in Infinity War, something like eight Cosmic Cubes gathered together were being used to simulate having a Gauntlet. (It's arguable that they're additive while the Gems are multiplicative, needing the Reality Gem to do the heavy lifting, though.)

I'm pretty sureThanos stomps prepwise. IIRC he is one of the few guys who we've given that kind of prep-respect over Doom. His understanding of magic and tech are higher, and he's better at finding and exploiting cosmic power items, which means he can generally fabricate much better stuff with his prep time. Dude has genetically engineered a love child of himself and Galactus, who I'm not sure even has genes.

AlphaMale
05-02-2014, 07:40 PM
Well, I would think the reality gem would be pretty powerful. On the other hand I'd like to think a cosmic cube would, overall, be superior to any single infinity gem. At the same time, Thanos is granted FTL reflexes, so he will be able to activate his first. So the cube might be more potent, but if Doom is too slow to use it then..well, he is screwed I guess.

As for your second fight I'd just say Doom probably stomps then since you gave him prep. Or maybe Thanos is one of the few who could rival him. You say they can only use their items to prep, but they could use those items to essentially give themselves a lab, allowing them to work on whatever they wanted. So you really haven't limited them from anything.

So I'd say Thanos wins the first scenario, but Doom wins the second.

Agreed. If Thanos if fast enough to react to a blitzing Silver Surfer, a blitzing Fallen One, and otherwise take shots at the Runner (then in possession of the space gem), I think he gets the drop on Doom.

In terms of the prep, I will say this would be really interesting. Doom has come back from being burned alive, time dumped in the Pleistocene age and eaten by Megalodons to come back and defeat the Marquis of Death. On the other hand, Thanos has outwitted the grand master in pursuit of the final gem to the Infinity Gauntlet.

Hard for me to make a call with prep time for either of these guys as they are both masters of prep.

*flips coin*

dupersuper
05-02-2014, 10:09 PM
Last I heard, Mod rulings aren't being carried over. We got rebooted.

What a brave new world...

Alan2099
05-02-2014, 11:40 PM
If Thanos if fast enough to react to a blitzing Silver Surfer, a blitzing Fallen One, and otherwise take shots at the Runner (then in possession of the space gem), I think he gets the drop on Doom.
Scans please?

Ite
05-03-2014, 12:15 AM
Dr. Doom wins both. One cosmic cube is more powerful than the reality gem.

Primetime Harder
05-03-2014, 12:42 AM
Doom with a day of prep and a Cosmic Cube can do pretty much anything, especially considering he's got prior experience with that power. (The Cube is still made out of the remnants of the Beyonder, right?)

I can see him enlisting the help of Death by appealing to her...intense dislike of Thanos.

Ite
05-03-2014, 12:50 AM
Doom with a day of prep and a Cosmic Cube can do pretty much anything, especially considering he's got prior experience with that power. (The Cube is still made out of the remnants of the Beyonder, right?)

I can see him enlisting the help of Death by appealing to her...intense dislike of Thanos.

Yes remember at the end of Secret Wars? He was the most powerful being of all time well = to The Beyonder.

Primetime Harder
05-03-2014, 12:55 AM
Yes remember at the end of Secret Wars?

Oh, I remember Secret Wars very well. I just thought that there might have been a recent (read: last 5 years or so) retcon to the Cosmic Cube to make it more like the MCU version or something.

Ite
05-03-2014, 12:57 AM
Oh, I remember Secret Wars very well. I just thought that there might have been a recent (read: last 5 years or so) retcon to the Cosmic Cube to make it more like the MCU version or something.

There was retcons to The Beyonder but not sure about the cubes.

Guy Smiley
05-03-2014, 01:55 AM
In terms of the prep, I will say this would be really interesting. Doom has come back from being burned alive, time dumped in the Pleistocene age and eaten by Megalodons to come back and defeat the Marquis of Death.

While Doom is indeed a prep god, that particular storyline with the Marquis seems to have been pretty much completely ignored by all writers after that. It may very well be considered non-canon. I'm not sure it's considered a feat for Doom.

Primetime Harder
05-03-2014, 02:22 AM
So, it occurs to me that Doom's greatest weapon in this fight might be the Reality Gem itself. Given the wild and unpredictable nature of the gem's power without the other 5 around to stabilize it, I can see Doom doing something like tricking Thanos into overestimating his control of it, or possibly even weakening or unmaking himself.

Then again, if anyone could see such a tactic coming, it would be Thanos. There are just so many options and variables here that it's mind-boggling, which I suppose is the entire point.

Surtur
05-03-2014, 08:33 AM
Dr. Doom wins both. One cosmic cube is more powerful than the reality gem.

This doesn't explain how Doom out reacts Thanos with the reality gem, unless you're suggesting the cosmic cube has some sort of passive defense that would protect Doom from it.

wjowski
05-03-2014, 08:57 AM
If Thanos is in character doesn't that mean he automatically loses?

Captain Morgan
05-03-2014, 09:28 AM
This doesn't explain how Doom out reacts Thanos with the reality gem, unless you're suggesting the cosmic cube has some sort of passive defense that would protect Doom from it.

Thanos no longer has mod ruled FTL reflexes, yo.

AlphaMale
05-03-2014, 10:38 AM
Thanos no longer has mod ruled FTL reflexes, yo.

And I quote Siriel:

"Finally, regarding mod rulings: Many mod rulings were lost over the various purges of the previous forum and no doubt many more will be lost in this shift. As such, mod rulings will not carry over from the old forum.
Do not use this as an excuse to start silly arguments like Luke Cage being able to ignore Superman or Wally West legitimately being hit by bullets. This is a chance to debate subjects that were closed on the previous forum and that might now have new evidence. Don't waste it."

Has there been any new evidence to suggest Thanos does not have FTL reflexes? Also, as I understood the Rumbles Rules, while everything is yet to be cemented, we are to expect to debate according to the same standards.

Someone asked earlier for scans of Thanos FTL reflexes: not sure about posting scans while the forums are "sorting everything out", but the issues are Thanos Quest for the Runner, Infinity Gauntlet (3 IIRC) where he dodges a blitzing Surfer moving ludicrously beyond the speed of light and Thanos 12, where he is blitzed by the Fallen One.

Captain Morgan
05-03-2014, 10:51 AM
And I quote Siriel:

"Finally, regarding mod rulings: Many mod rulings were lost over the various purges of the previous forum and no doubt many more will be lost in this shift. As such, mod rulings will not carry over from the old forum.
Do not use this as an excuse to start silly arguments like Luke Cage being able to ignore Superman or Wally West legitimately being hit by bullets. This is a chance to debate subjects that were closed on the previous forum and that might now have new evidence. Don't waste it."

Has there been any new evidence to suggest Thanos does not have FTL reflexes? Also, as I understood the Rumbles Rules, while everything is yet to be cemented, we are to expect to debate according to the same standards.

Someone asked earlier for scans of Thanos FTL reflexes: not sure about posting scans while the forums are "sorting everything out", but the issues are Thanos Quest for the Runner, Infinity Gauntlet (3 IIRC) where he dodges a blitzing Surfer moving ludicrously beyond the speed of light and Thanos 12, where he is blitzed by the Fallen One.

Thanos got blitzed the fuck out by the Runner. That's not a feat. And the Gauntlet grab made is less than a clean feat in my opinion because it involved Thanos being amped out by the Power Gem. Everything else that seems to get brought up involves him fighting people who happen to have super speed but aren't actively demonstrating it, which is not valid evidence for any other character.

I'm not familiar with the instance with the Fallen One, so scans of that would be nifty. In general though, it's worth noting that a large chunk of the board didn't agree with that Thanos ruling, and since we have the opportunity to revisit it, I think we probably should.

EDIT: Now to be clear, if it can be demonstrated that there is no way the Power Gem could have amped Thanos's reflexes, or there is a solid speed feat for him that I have never seen, we might reach the same old status quo. We never had that happen in the previous age, but hey, it's a brand new day.

Surtur
05-03-2014, 11:03 AM
Well, I'd of said reboot a long time ago if I knew it'd get rid of the Thanos ruling. Rejoice, Thanos no longer blitzes/outreacts a damn soul. I guess then Doom wins both.

Alan2099
05-03-2014, 11:26 AM
EDIT: Now to be clear, if it can be demonstrated that there is no way the Power Gem could have amped Thanos's reflexes, or there is a solid speed feat for him that I have never seen, we might reach the same old status quo. We never had that happen in the previous age, but hey, it's a brand new day.
The only thing Thanos turned off was his cosmic awareness. He kept ever other bit of his limitless power. I don't see how anything where Thanos is using the Gauntlet should be treated as a standard feat for the guy.

As for Thanos #12 ... at one point, The Fallen one pointed at Thanos and teleported him away before Thanos could react.

Later in the book, Fallen growls at him and charges, and Thanos blasts the guy. There's no real speedfeats to be found there.

Captain Morgan
05-03-2014, 12:22 PM
The only thing Thanos turned off was his cosmic awareness. He kept ever other bit of his limitless power. I don't see how anything where Thanos is using the Gauntlet should be treated as a standard feat for the guy.

As for Thanos #12 ... at one point, The Fallen one pointed at Thanos and teleported him away before Thanos could react.

Later in the book, Fallen growls at him and charges, and Thanos blasts the guy. There's no real speedfeats to be found there.

I've seen people argue he didn't have the other gems active at all, but I think the Power Gem would still be the one which would give a guy super speed reaction times... Well, maybe time could do a slow time thing.

Anyway, Thanos has also been danced around by people with less than FTL reflexes in the past as well, like Gamora and Star Fox. He's also kicked the crap out of the Silver Surfer, but I never saw anything indicating Norrin used his speed, just like how most fights don't involve the Surfer using his massively faster reflexes.

Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh
05-03-2014, 12:59 PM
Thanos got blitzed the fuck out by the Runner. That's not a feat.

While the Runner was outpacing him with the Space Gem, Thanos was still fast enough to track and fire off shots that were in the guy's general direction. It's a feat.


And the Gauntlet grab made is less than a clean feat in my opinion because it involved Thanos being amped out by the Power Gem. Everything else that seems to get brought up involves him fighting people who happen to have super speed but aren't actively demonstrating it, which is not valid evidence for any other character.

The Power Gem, in all of its appearances, has never once been shown to amplify a user's speed. I don't understand why this is such a big deal.


I'm not familiar with the instance with the Fallen One, so scans of that would be nifty. In general though, it's worth noting that a large chunk of the board didn't agree with that Thanos ruling, and since we have the opportunity to revisit it, I think we probably should.

Well then let us. Let's bring on the feats. Will provide the Fallen One's feats when I get off of el' phone-o.


EDIT: Now to be clear, if it can be demonstrated that there is no way the Power Gem could have amped Thanos's reflexes, or there is a solid speed feat for him that I have never seen, we might reach the same old status quo. We never had that happen in the previous age, but hey, it's a brand new day.

If it can be demonstrated that the Power Gem amplifies speed and reflexes, you might have an argument against it. But you can't just assume something is, without the feats supporting it.


Well, I'd of said reboot a long time ago if I knew it'd get rid of the Thanos ruling. Rejoice, Thanos no longer blitzes/outreacts a damn soul. I guess then Doom wins both.

Neither does Superman, with that logic, unless you've got the feats to support it.


I've seen people argue he didn't have the other gems active at all, but I think the Power Gem would still be the one which would give a guy super speed reaction times... Well, maybe time could do a slow time thing.

Based on what, dare I ask.


Anyway, Thanos has also been danced around by people with less than FTL reflexes in the past as well, like Gamora and Star Fox. He's also kicked the crap out of the Silver Surfer, but I never saw anything indicating Norrin used his speed, just like how most fights don't involve the Surfer using his massively faster reflexes.

See, this is fair.

AlphaMale
05-03-2014, 01:42 PM
Thanos got blitzed the fuck out by the Runner. That's not a feat.

I'm not referring to said blitzing.

Clearly, the Runner was superior in speed to Thanos. But it is important to note, the Runner, who through no amping of his own at the time, was able to interact with Makkari, in Quasar 58. Makkari, was "stuck in fast forward", having employed the so-called "Grossgumbeekian" technique of speed. He was interacting with a guy who had achieved the "top possible speed" in the universe. So, there is that.

Additionally, for the feat in question from Thanos Quest #2, the Runner was amped on the space gem at the time. Thanos' own dialogue made it clear he was achieving "mental teleporation". I can't imagine there was anyone in the Marvel universe that was faster than that. Yet, despite all that, Thanos was able to fire off a few shots that the artwork makes clear was dogging the Runner's very steps.


And the Gauntlet grab made is less than a clean feat in my opinion because it involved Thanos being amped out by the Power Gem. Everything else that seems to get brought up involves him fighting people who happen to have super speed but aren't actively demonstrating it, which is not valid evidence for any other character.

You are aware that the power gem has nothing to do with amping a character's speed right? That would've been the space gem.


I'm not familiar with the instance with the Fallen One, so scans of that would be nifty. In general though, it's worth noting that a large chunk of the board didn't agree with that Thanos ruling, and since we have the opportunity to revisit it, I think we probably should.

Here's the funny thing about this discussion. Through all this, all you've managed to do is complain about a previous board ruling, something Siriel specifically said not to do, unless there was evidence to the contrary. Yet, here we are. So what are you suggesting Thanos' reaction speed should be, in your expert opinion? What new evidence do you have to suggest the contrary? Additionally, what feats of Doom are you relying on as definitive proof that he is faster than Thanos in terms of reaction speed?


EDIT: Now to be clear, if it can be demonstrated that there is no way the Power Gem could have amped Thanos's reflexes, or there is a solid speed feat for him that I have never seen, we might reach the same old status quo. We never had that happen in the previous age, but hey, it's a brand new day.

Even if the power gem amped Thanos' reaction time (which is dubious at best...), he was still reacting to a guy who was blitzing him at millions of times the speed of light. Maybe a better question: if the power gem amps the users speed, how much in your opinion, was Thanos' speed amped?

Captain Morgan
05-03-2014, 01:52 PM
While the Runner was outpacing him with the Space Gem, Thanos was still fast enough to track and fire off shots that were in the guy's general direction. It's a feat..

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Space Gem was revealed to not be doing anything to amp the Runner's reflexes, but merely giving him teleportation.

Yep, double checked. "The gem didn't make you faster." (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/3/39453/969685-runnerthanos8.jpg)

And no, it really isn't a valid feat by any standard we have ever applied to a character. In fact, look at the scan.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111122518/3496943-3392902984-runne.jpg

He tries to shoot the Runner while he is standing still, and the Runner casually runs circles around it. And it is mentioned that he is using "instrumentation" to track this guy anyway.



If it can be demonstrated that the Power Gem amplifies speed and reflexes, you might have an argument against it. But you can't just assume something is, without the feats supporting it.


The Power Gem is a literally infinite well of power. It's been described on various wikis and stuff as being able to simulate any super power imaginable. I don't know how much of that has been backed up by actual comics to be honest. I DO know the gem has some sort pretty exotic stuff when in the hands of someone competent. Thor used it make a hallucination in his head actually come to life and start kicking ass in the real world. Thanos might be the single most competent guy to ever wield the gem. It's a grey area for me, but it's enough to make me question the feat (if it turns out to be the one and only actual feat.)



Neither does Superman, with that logic, unless you've got the feats to support it.

Well, we HAVE those feats for Superman, and if someone actually doubts it, they can be found easily.


Based on what, dare I ask.

Well I just showed the space gem doesn't amp reaction times. The only other gem which logically could do it is the Time Gem.

Captain Morgan
05-03-2014, 02:07 PM
Alphamale (PS, was that your old handle? I don't know who anyone is anymore), I am not going to respond to your post because my reply to Cthulhu basically covered it. You are clearly wrong on few accounts though, as my previous post shows.

I do want to take the opportunity to show some of the contrasting performances.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/4/44936/1034624-thanos_vs_gamora_003.jpg

http://s160.photobucket.com/user/EndlessMike9/media/Thanos/thanosspeed.jpg.html

You could discount the above as a low showing similar to Spider-Man dodging the Silver Surfer if Thanos had multiple FTL speed feats to his name, preferably ones that didn't involve other characters toying around with him or him holding the most powerful artifact in existence. So far we have:

1) The Gauntlet grab.
2) The Runner trivially toying with Thanos and Thanos not being able to do jack about it.
3) Gamora outspeeding Thanos.
4) Eros outspeeding Thanos.

Only one of these is a feat for Thanos. Even if we ruled out the power gem amping his reflexes, it would STILL be FTL if other writers are treating Thanos as not having super speed to begin with.

So pull up some more feats, people! Thanos has plenty of appearances. Let's see some scans and see where things fall.

MorphyVSFischer
05-03-2014, 02:15 PM
Here's the funny thing about this discussion. Through all this, all you've managed to do is complain about a previous board ruling, something Siriel specifically said not to do, unless there was evidence to the contrary. Yet, here we are. So what are you suggesting Thanos' reaction speed should be, in your expert opinion? What new evidence do you have to suggest the contrary? Additionally, what feats of Doom are you relying on as definitive proof that he is faster than Thanos in terms of reaction speed?

Actaully Siriel said not to debate really obvious things like Luke Cage being stronger then Superman. The Thanos speed was possibly the most widely divided ruling on the old board and is not nearly the equivalent of the examples he gave of a silly argument.

Guy Smiley
05-03-2014, 02:55 PM
Actaully Siriel said not to debate really obvious things like Luke Cage being stronger then Superman. The Thanos speed was possibly the most widely divided ruling on the old board and is not nearly the equivalent of the examples he gave of a silly argument.

This. IIRC, the Gauntlet Grab is one of the main components of Thanos' FTL reflex speed ruling and mostly backed up by "as a Surfer villain this doesn't seem all that inconsistent with his portrayal", and as seen in this very thread, the Gauntlet Grab has generally been hotly contested as Thanos being hopped up on Infinity Juice. (I'm not one of those people, but I certainly understand the other side's reasoning.)

The post noting that the mod rulings were out the window makes it pretty clear that some of these issues can be freshly argued again, potentially resulting in a new mod ruling swinging the other way. Siriel asked us not to debate stuff that's pretty obviously silly, like Deathstroke being legitimately capable of tagging Flash or Batman being a bullet-timer.

Captain Morgan
05-03-2014, 03:11 PM
This. IIRC, the Gauntlet Grab is one of the main components of Thanos' FTL reflex speed ruling and mostly backed up by "as a Surfer villain this doesn't seem all that inconsistent with his portrayal", and as seen in this very thread, the Gauntlet Grab has generally been hotly contested as Thanos being hopped up on Infinity Juice. (I'm not one of those people, but I certainly understand the other side's reasoning.)

The post noting that the mod rulings were out the window makes it pretty clear that some of these issues can be freshly argued again, potentially resulting in a new mod ruling swinging the other way. Siriel asked us not to debate stuff that's pretty obviously silly, like Deathstroke being legitimately capable of tagging Flash or Batman being a bullet-timer.
I appreciate the back up on this gentleman. I was feeling mildly attacked, which was amusing since I was the one who actually seemed to have scans and details right. XD (Not really so much from Chtulu, but the other guy a little.)


I will point out, Guy, that the Gauntlet grab was never actually cited in the ruling. The ruling actually cites no feats.

AlphaMale
05-03-2014, 05:08 PM
Alphamale (PS, was that your old handle? I don't know who anyone is anymore), I am not going to respond to your post because my reply to Cthulhu basically covered it. You are clearly wrong on few accounts though, as my previous post shows.

I do want to take the opportunity to show some of the contrasting performances.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/4/44936/1034624-thanos_vs_gamora_003.jpg

http://s160.photobucket.com/user/EndlessMike9/media/Thanos/thanosspeed.jpg.html

You could discount the above as a low showing similar to Spider-Man dodging the Silver Surfer if Thanos had multiple FTL speed feats to his name, preferably ones that didn't involve other characters toying around with him or him holding the most powerful artifact in existence. So far we have:

1) The Gauntlet grab.
2) The Runner trivially toying with Thanos and Thanos not being able to do jack about it.
3) Gamora outspeeding Thanos.
4) Eros outspeeding Thanos.

Only one of these is a feat for Thanos. Even if we ruled out the power gem amping his reflexes, it would STILL be FTL if other writers are treating Thanos as not having super speed to begin with.

So pull up some more feats, people! Thanos has plenty of appearances. Let's see some scans and see where things fall.

I see where you are coming from and could see an argument being made for both perspectives.

However, I also seem to recall the Runner as included in a previously ruled bracket as above Wally and the Surfer in terms of reaction speed (with Zoom II and Makkari, no?). Was that ruling made because the Runner was in possession of the space gem, or without the gem? And the scans of Thanos following the Runner in a tight circle are clearly of him operating in 3 dimensional space...so it doesn't appear to me he was engaged in mental teleporting in that frame.

*shrugs*

Additionally, I haven't seen one shred of evidence that indicates Dr Doom actually has reaction speed to speak of.


Actaully Siriel said not to debate really obvious things like Luke Cage being stronger then Superman. The Thanos speed was possibly the most widely divided ruling on the old board and is not nearly the equivalent of the examples he gave of a silly argument.

I see. But didn't he in the same breath indicate that new evidence should clearly be presented that clearly contradicts? I can't imagine, if this topic was as hotly debated as some seem to be indicating, that it all hasn't been covered before.

As well, I think an argument can still be made that Thanos' reaction examples that I mentioned above are not so far outside the realm of Thanos' presentation so as to be inconsistent with it.

And to dismiss Thanos' lower showings holds no more water to me, than any other character awarded significantly ultra fast reaction speeds being dismissed "because he got tagged by whatever slow character".

Just a thought.

Captain Morgan
05-03-2014, 05:34 PM
I see where you are coming from and could see an argument being made for both perspectives.

However, I also seem to recall the Runner as included in a previously ruled bracket as above Wally and the Surfer in terms of reaction speed (with Zoom II and Makkari, no?). Was that ruling made because the Runner was in possession of the space gem, or without the gem?

The Runner is faster than Wally with or without the Space Gem.


And the scans of Thanos following the Runner in a tight circle are clearly of him operating in 3 dimensional space...so it doesn't appear to me he was engaged in mental teleporting in that frame.

You aren't looking at the scan dude. This is the sequence of events. Runner runs up to Thanos. Runner stops and talks in front of him. Thanos tries to shoot the guy. Runner effortlessly dodges and literally begins running Circles around Thanos. The Runner "disappears into the depth of the ether in the blink of an eye." Thanos picks up that he is returning, his speed doubled, through his instrumentation.

This is a non-feat. Thanos does not track the guy successfully. Thanos is a statue to the Runner. And even if he wasn't? The Runner is CLEARLY toying with the guy. We barely allow for "fighting really fast guys" to count as a feat, and that's when the fast guys are actually trying and still getting tagged. This is not that.There is really no room for debate on this.



Additionally, I haven't seen one shred of evidence that indicates Dr Doom actually has reaction speed to speak of.

I'm not arguing for Doom. Ironically though, I actually have seen better speed feats for Doom than Thanos, I think. But I don't care enough about that to look for them right now.



I see. But didn't he in the same breath indicate that new evidence should clearly be presented that clearly contradicts? I can't imagine, if this topic was as hotly debated as some seem to be indicating, that it all hasn't been covered before.

We weren't allowed to talk about this before. You don't really understand the politics behind this issue, I am afraid.


As well, I think an argument can still be made that Thanos' reaction examples that I mentioned above are not so far outside the realm of Thanos' presentation so as to be inconsistent with it.

WHAT presentation? Thanos has always been presented as a significant powerhouse. When has he been presented as a speedster? No one has provided a single example beyond the gauntlet grab. Beating up the Surfer is not a speed feat, anymore than Doomsday beating up Superman is. Surfer isn't treated as a speedster in 99% of his fights because it makes for crappy story telling.


And to dismiss Thanos' lower showings holds no more water to me, than any other character awarded significantly ultra fast reaction speeds being dismissed "because he got tagged by whatever slow character".

Just a thought.

Except you haven't demonstrated any actual higher showings. If you have evidence, show some scans. Right now all we got is the Gauntlet Grab. Which could involve him being amped, or it could just be SMvsFL, if he doesn't have a single other speed feat to his name. Or even presentation as a speedster.

Awesome-X
05-03-2014, 06:36 PM
I appreciate the back up on this gentleman. I was feeling mildly attacked, which was amusing since I was the one who actually seemed to have scans and details right. XD (Not really so much from Chtulu, but the other guy a little.)


I will point out, Guy, that the Gauntlet grab was never actually cited in the ruling. The ruling actually cites no feats.
I've never agreed with the whole "Thanos is FTL" thing as well. I've never seen any scans showing Thanos doing anything FTL under his own power, such as fighting a FTL person who is actually using their super speed.

But It seems people (on this site and others) like to give Thanos the benefit of the doubt just because he's Thanos. (not just in speed, but in other areas as well)

Surtur
05-03-2014, 06:43 PM
Neither does Superman, with that logic, unless you've got the feats to support it.

But Superman has speed feats, he didn't need a ruling for it. Since when did he not have feats to support super speed?

Also just to note on the power gem, from the way it is described it sure sounds like a capable user of it could use it for a whole lot of things. I don't know if it 100% can be used to amp speed, but it's not a thing that helps his case much when one of his feats has a huge asterisk next to it. Thanos has been around more then long enough to where he needs not so nebulous speed feats, and more then a single one at that. Let's try to take him when he's not being amped in any way by a plot device and go from there(which is what should of been done before IMO, though I'm not going to beat a dead horse there).

Alan2099
05-03-2014, 08:17 PM
Here. This is Thanos's big Speed feat.

http://i.imgur.com/NJsaoz7.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/yrSMO92.jpg

Something so vague and ill-defined that one could easily make the argument that Thanos didn't do anything at all and Surfer just missed. Thanos does look rather surprised at Surfer speeding by.


And do you really want to say that he's able to dodge a speeding Silver Surfer, but he can't dodge Captain America?

MidTierHero
05-03-2014, 08:24 PM
If you're going to give Thanos FTL speed and reflexes, you may as well give them to Captain Cold and Captain Boomerang - they have the same level of evidence.

Primetime Harder
05-03-2014, 08:27 PM
Doom's reflexes are beyond human, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the guy who can stomp Silver Surfer so hard that he chains him up and makes him wear a little dress is faster.

Pendaran
05-03-2014, 08:53 PM
Here. This is Thanos's big Speed feat.

http://i.imgur.com/NJsaoz7.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/yrSMO92.jpg

Something so vague and ill-defined that one could easily make the argument that Thanos didn't do anything at all and Surfer just missed. Thanos does look rather surprised at Surfer speeding by.


And do you really want to say that he's able to dodge a speeding Silver Surfer, but he can't dodge Captain America?

So, while I've never particularly agreed that Thanos has FTL reflexes, or anything like them, as far as the context of the actual comic even from your scans, Thanos makes pretty clear he's shocked at that he almost lost the Gauntlet to this whole chicanery of Adam Warlock's. It also doesn't really fit with anything to say that's Cap hitting Thanos faster than he can react to. Thanos is, right from your scan, not even paying attention to Cap as Cap punches him, he's not even looking at him. He doesn't care that Cap is hitting him. If you really want to go there, he even backhands him mid monologue without bothering to turn to look at him and it is Captain America who can't get out of the way. If you're wanting to go at this from a "what the scan shows" type of stance, that's then Thanos doing a no look backhand that Cap can't dodge.

A much more credible thing to note would be that Thanos has the power gem here, amping him, and thereby that anything he does has an asterisk on it, even if the gem has never reaaally amped a dude's speed, it is a generally amp all to hell, and Thanos certainly got more across the board mileage out of it than any user besides Thor and Adam Warlock when he was limiting himself to one gem at a time.

As speed feats go, this one shows just fine Thanos ducking a Surfer coming in at crazy speeds.

The problem is that this is basically the only explicit speed feat of Thanos' entire career, his general presentation of powers has never really included super reflexes, and is also under questionable circumstances of power ups.

I'd prefer if people are going to try and take shots at a thing I've myself found dodgy, they take clearer paths to doing so.

The one thing that could be said in favour of it is that compared to, you know, marquee characters (which, Thanos really isn't, for all that his fans might say otherwise. He anchored a 12 issue series barely, a couple of 6 issue miniseries had him as the main protagonist, and is otherwise the villain in other heroes' miniseries or comics, or a guest star of ambiguous morality, or sharing focus with Adam Warlock, or.... Deathstroke held a title longer. Deathstroke. Pop culture is only aware of who Thanos is because of an Avengers cameo that was originally just a comics fan pandering teaser that happened to take off), Thanos has shown up a lot less than you might think he has, and of those showings, the ones where he actually does anything at all are fractional. So there's really not a whole hell of a lot to work with, so you can only work with what's there.

Even so, at least with someone like, say, Karate Kid, he's messing around with superspeedsters from day 1 as a guy with a galaxy's worth of skill and various other things, so you can at least say "but from his very first outing" when you then point to other crap connected to him, overall presentation, the like.

Thanos initial outings? He certainly gets into a fistfight with Drax that blows up a planet that he wins, but neither of those guys involved had superspeed anything. Thanos' overall presentation? Certainly an extremely powerful guy, but speed/reflexes isn't some explicitly called out thing there.

Pendaran
05-03-2014, 09:09 PM
(not just in speed, but in other areas as well)

What other areas?

byc
05-03-2014, 09:53 PM
Last I heard, Mod rulings aren't being carried over. We got rebooted.

WHAT?!?!?!

On the other hand, I never understood Thanos' FTL reflexes. It seemed PIS or CIS that Surfer didn't blitz him.

Guy Smiley
05-03-2014, 11:38 PM
Also just to note on the power gem, from the way it is described it sure sounds like a capable user of it could use it for a whole lot of things. I don't know if it 100% can be used to amp speed, but it's not a thing that helps his case much when one of his feats has a huge asterisk next to it.

I'm almost certain it can. At the very least for speedsters. (But I wouldn't be surprised if it'd work for anyone with some form of mobility, the way it boosts the strength of pretty much anybody with working muscles.) The thing boosts strength guys to make them stronger, IIRC fuels energy blasters to be more blasty, and fuels the other Infinity Gems when brought together to work on a universal scale. It's even, as noted, got feats for fueling more esoteric stuff, like making that girl for Warrior Madness Thor. It's pretty clear the Power Gem is a power generator and amplifier.

The only reason the Gauntlet Grab is arguable, is that a) The Gem has no actual feats of amping speed, and b) it isn't explicitly stated to be amping Thanos' speed. So yeah, total asterisk. It's just hard to rule it completely out when the previous two points are thrown into the equation.

Given the paucity of other speed feats for Thanos being brought into this thread, I'd be pretty okay with Thanos being ruled non-FTL.

Anarchist
05-04-2014, 01:34 AM
If this is really the only supposed FTL-feat he has, then I'm also saying that he shouldn't be granted such reflexes.
Its not like that would make him any less powerful, he still has his uber-powerful durability and the other abilities that make him treat Flash-level speedsters like a joke.

Surtur
05-04-2014, 08:24 AM
Even if we said "the feat counts" I'd then ask what else we have to support it.

The Drunkard Kid
05-04-2014, 08:51 AM
The only other explicit speed feat I can recall for Thanos was Eros saying he was faster than Big Purple, but considering that Thanos was basically ignoring Eros' strikes while chatting with him and that that encounter ended up with him casually swatting and pinning Eros partly into a wall while literally saying, "Where is your vaunted speed now?" I'm thinking Starfox may have been underestimating his brother.

byc
05-04-2014, 08:57 AM
Even if we said "the feat counts" I'd then ask what else we have to support it.

This brings up something I've always been confused about.

Sometime the board supports the only showing of a feat, but sometimes it doesn't. That's assuming the feat is within a characters showing.

I can't recall off-hand, but one-time BT feats have been counted before for only showings.

Captain Morgan
05-04-2014, 09:16 AM
This brings up something I've always been confused about.

Sometime the board supports the only showing of a feat, but sometimes it doesn't. That's assuming the feat is within a characters showing.

I can't recall off-hand, but one-time BT feats have been counted before for only showings.

Context matters. If a character appears in one movie for example, and is presented as a super human bad ass martial artist type who deflects a bullet after it's been fired at one point... Well, it's consistent with the presentation and there weren't other showings to contradict it.

Even if there are more appearances, a single bullet time feat may just be consistent with the guy's showings. Dr. McNinja only has one actual bullet time feat I can think of, but the dude is a super human ninja who does stuff like disarm people so fast they don't see him move, punches out giants and dinosaurs, and so on.

If a guy only has one speed feat, and isn't actually presented as a speedster, and the feat is ambiguous at that... It is probably not enough.


(not just in speed, but in other areas as well)

I am pretty satisfied with where people on this board rate Thanos in every other category. Dude is scary strong and his durability is even crazier. And he has a ton of powers to round him out. The only other area where I question people is his prep. I see him placed above guys like Reed Richards every now and then, and I don't really feel like that should be the case. Thanos's big accomplishments he has over Reed largely seem to be a matter of ambition rather than relative ability. They also tend to involve cosmic artifacts and power jacking which I don't think our prep rules allow for, and from what I have seen Reed's tech feats are genuinely better than Thanos's.

Surtur
05-04-2014, 09:43 AM
This brings up something I've always been confused about.

Sometime the board supports the only showing of a feat, but sometimes it doesn't. That's assuming the feat is within a characters showing.

I can't recall off-hand, but one-time BT feats have been counted before for only showings.

I can only see a lone BT feat counting if the character doesn't really show up many times. Otherwise you'd need some supporting feats. But if you show up for two issues and bullet time in one..you are probably granted BT'ing reflexes. But if you've been around for 4 decades, even if your appearances were sporadic during that time, you are going to need more then one.

AlphaMale
05-04-2014, 04:10 PM
The Runner is faster than Wally with or without the Space Gem.

It was more a rhetorical question.



You aren't looking at the scan dude. This is the sequence of events. Runner runs up to Thanos. Runner stops and talks in front of him. Thanos tries to shoot the guy. Runner effortlessly dodges and literally begins running Circles around Thanos. The Runner "disappears into the depth of the ether in the blink of an eye." Thanos picks up that he is returning, his speed doubled, through his instrumentation.

This is a non-feat. Thanos does not track the guy successfully. Thanos is a statue to the Runner. And even if he wasn't? The Runner is CLEARLY toying with the guy. We barely allow for "fighting really fast guys" to count as a feat, and that's when the fast guys are actually trying and still getting tagged. This is not that.There is really no room for debate on this.

Fair enough.


I'm not arguing for Doom. Ironically though, I actually have seen better speed feats for Doom than Thanos, I think. But I don't care enough about that to look for them right now.

I see.

Your cause is more to right what you felt was a previous wrong. How noble.

But seeing as how one guy getting the drop on another appears to be fundamental to the conversation, feats for Doom's superior reaction speed are in order don't you think?



We weren't allowed to talk about this before. You don't really understand the politics behind this issue, I am afraid.

Hmmm. No, I'm afraid I missed said clandestine drama. If I want the war story, I'll be sure to look you up.




WHAT presentation? Thanos has always been presented as a significant powerhouse. When has he been presented as a speedster? No one has provided a single example beyond the gauntlet grab. Beating up the Surfer is not a speed feat, anymore than Doomsday beating up Superman is. Surfer isn't treated as a speedster in 99% of his fights because it makes for crappy story telling.

???

Not sure how we dipped into the realm of Surfer's reaction speed.

I'll stay on point. If we are throwing out Thanos' showing in the IG, and otherwise dismissing the other feats I threw out there, where does that leave us? Who gets the drop on who here?



Except you haven't demonstrated any actual higher showings. If you have evidence, show some scans. Right now all we got is the Gauntlet Grab. Which could involve him being amped, or it could just be SMvsFL, if he doesn't have a single other speed feat to his name. Or even presentation as a speedster.

I've introduced the name of the books, and the scans appear to have been introduced at this point and subsequently dismissed, save for the Gauntlet Grab, which you feel was SMvsFL.

What's perplexing to me, is that in your enthusiasm to shoot down anything that has been introduced as evidence of Thanos' previously awarded...ruled, excuse me....FTL reflexes you've failed to demonstrate how Doom is, how did you put it:


I actually have seen better speed feats for Doom than Thanos, I think. But I don't care enough about that to look for them right now.

How convenient.

But since that appears to be one of the fundamental conundrums of this discussion, wouldn't you say some evidence is in order? In your educated opinion, why is Doom faster than Thanos?

Captain Morgan
05-04-2014, 04:37 PM
I don't especially think Doom is a speedster. I have seen instances of his thought speed being compared to a super computer, and him reacting to energy blasts after they have been fired and stuff. It's all pretty nebulous, and it was introduced in a context where Doom HAD to win everything forever. (The Rumblers League.) But it's more actual speed feats than I have seen posted for Thanos.

Again, I don't really care what Doom's reaction times are. I'm not weighing on the actual fight here. Just Thanos's speed, so we can nip that old headache in the bud.