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themetropoliskid
05-02-2014, 10:56 PM
Green Goblin https://marvel.com/universe/Green_Goblin

Vs.
Cap. America https://marvel.com/universe/Captain_America_(Steve_Rogers)

They fight deep in an underground bunker. Cap is the only thing stopping Oregon from being destroyed. Can Cap get it done?

Guy1
05-02-2014, 10:57 PM
Goblin tears Cap in half.

Matt the Manly
05-02-2014, 11:00 PM
Green Goblin https://marvel.com/universe/Green_Goblin

Vs.
Cap. America https://marvel.com/universe/Captain_America_(Steve_Rogers)

They fight deep in an underground bunker. Cap is the only thing stopping Oregon from being destroyed. Can Cap get it done?

Why do you think Cap stands a chance here?

Guy1
05-02-2014, 11:07 PM
Why do you think Cap stands a chance here?

He does have a cool shield. :p

Hazard
05-02-2014, 11:15 PM
Green Goblin is a guy that legitimately trades hits with Spider-Man.

When Spider-Man is really out to kill the guy.

He's much stronger and tougher than Cap.

Primetime Harder
05-02-2014, 11:54 PM
Goblin 8/10. Cap is freaky-skilled enough with that shield to land a decapitation shot against a moving target, but against the Goblin it would be more dumb luck than skill.

Matt the Manly
05-03-2014, 12:10 AM
Goblin 8/10. Cap is freaky-skilled enough with that shield to land a decapitation shot against a moving target, but against the Goblin it would be more dumb luck than skill.
Would you give Cap an 8/10 against Spiderman too then?

Primetime Harder
05-03-2014, 12:14 AM
Would you give Cap an 8/10 against Spiderman too then?

I should correct that to 9/10. It may be dumb luck, but it's not unthinkably impossible; it isn't like he's going up against Gladiator or Wonder Woman.

The Watcher
05-03-2014, 12:17 AM
MCU Cap vs Raimi Goblin would be a closer fight. Goblin would still be stronger but the difference might be smaller and MCU Cap has a hell of a damage soak. That plus Cap's greater skill and the fact that the fight takes place in an underground bunker, eliminating Goblin's flight advantage (unless it has high ceilings) and constraining his use of area attacks (cause he might not be able to get out of blast range) could give Cap the chance to get a win. It would take a long fight though where Cap would have wear down Norman with repeated hits with his shield while avoiding any attempts for Goblin to get him in a grapple.

Matt the Manly
05-03-2014, 12:19 AM
I should correct that to 9/10. It may be dumb luck, but it's not unthinkably impossible; it isn't like he's going up against Gladiator or Wonder Woman.

Er yes it is, relatively.


Pete moves faster than DD can track him. DD (and other bullet timers) have been mod ruled to blitz Cap/Batman etc

Goblin is generally given Peter Parker level stats

Also "dumb luck" is not a factor on rumbles

Basically Spiderman outspeeds a guy who is mod ruled to blitz Cap

Ergo this is a non fight

And thats without even getting to the strength/ durabilty issues

Cujo
05-03-2014, 12:20 AM
Green Goblin hits Cap with his Glider, even if he was a high damage soak, a half ton of metal hitting you at sixty is going to mess you up.

Then he snaps Cap's neck while he's fumbling around on the ground bleeding to death.

Ite
05-03-2014, 12:22 AM
Er yes it is, relatively.


Pete moves faster than DD can track him. DD (and other bullet timers) have been mod ruled to blitz Cap/Batman etc

Goblin is generally given Peter Parker level stats

Also "dumb luck" is not a factor on rumbles

Basically Spiderman outspeeds a guy who is mod ruled to blitz Cap

Ergo this is a non fight

And thats without even getting to the strength/ durabilty issues

There are new mod rulings already?

Matt the Manly
05-03-2014, 12:30 AM
There are new mod rulings already?
no im talking about the old ones

Guy1
05-03-2014, 12:35 AM
MCU Cap vs Raimi Goblin would be a closer fight. Goblin would still be stronger but the difference might be smaller.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ3J8xIl9yE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlgQriclUSw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfSz0bQzZuM
Sorry man, but MCU Cap is nowhere near as strong as Dafoe Goblin.

Matt the Manly
05-03-2014, 12:39 AM
besides a mod ruling was never made on DDs speed i believe . it was just accepted

and the only mod ruling im referring to is the "bullet timers blitz peak humans " one. something im sure will carry over to nuRumbles

Otherwise we are going to have endless debates on how Captain America beats Cassandra Cain with a "lucky blow" and all that

Alternatively i could start posting scans of Cass treating Bruce like a joke, post impressive numbers about the speed of a bullet and all that, but honestly its just too cumbersome and its much easier typing "a ruling was made" and be done with it

Primetime Harder
05-03-2014, 12:46 AM
Didn't mean to cause a mini-ruckus; I'm just rusty on my rumbles protocol. I'll get my Khazan legs back soon enough. Plus I've been writing a superhero novel recently, and I suppose I'm just thinking too much in terms of story.

The Watcher
05-03-2014, 01:09 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ3J8xIl9yE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlgQriclUSw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfSz0bQzZuM
Sorry man, but MCU Cap is nowhere near as strong as Dafoe Goblin.

Well, Raimi Spiderman is definitely stronger than MCU Cap. Doesn't necessarily mean the Goblin is his equal. A weaker man can hurt a stronger one with a punch. It's been a while since I've seen the movie. Anyone remember the Goblin grappling with Spidey or doing anything else that would give a good gauge of his strength?

Cujo
05-03-2014, 01:16 AM
Well, Raimi Spiderman is definitely stronger than MCU Cap. Doesn't necessarily mean the Goblin is his equal. A weaker man can hurt a stronger one with a punch. It's been a while since I've seen the movie. Anyone remember the Goblin grappling with Spidey or doing anything else that would give a good gauge of his strength?

The guys holding up a cable car full of people with one hand with no visible strain.

What more proof do you need?

The Watcher
05-03-2014, 01:31 AM
The guys holding up a cable car full of people with one hand with no visible strain.

What more proof do you need?

He's holding it with his hand? I couldn't see that. For some reason the video is pretty dark on my monitor. I couldn't make out that detail. I could barely make out the Goblin at all. Thought the cable was attached to something else.

Well, in that case, movie Goblin is clearly Spidey-Strong.

Clark Prince
05-03-2014, 03:29 AM
When did DD lose track of Spider-man? How does DD lose track of someone given his senses? Also, DD can react to bullets pretty easily. So if Spider-man can really move too fast for him to follow to the point even his super-sense doesn't know what is going, Spider-man is like quicksilver or something.

Also, I wouldn't be so sure Goblin is as fast as Spider-man. Does he have any non spider-man related fights to judge?

If Goblin isn't any faster, in the right location where hiding is possible, Cap could get in a sneak attack shield throw to the neck.

heretic
05-03-2014, 05:42 AM
Green Goblin https://marvel.com/universe/Green_Goblin

Vs.
Cap. America https://marvel.com/universe/Captain_America_(Steve_Rogers)

They fight deep in an underground bunker. Cap is the only thing stopping Oregon from being destroyed. Can Cap get it done?
Alone? No. Normie is strong enough to tear him apart and too fast for Steve's usual 'dance around and chip away with shield' solution to that problem to work.

And this is without factoring in the Goblin's gear.

Shellhead
05-03-2014, 07:43 AM
Goblin is generally given Peter Parker level stats

Just out of curiosity, are there any Green Goblin speed feats independent of his fights with Spider-man? Have we seen him blitz anybody? Dodge any bullets? Anything? Because if we don't have those kind of verifiable speedfeats, why does Green Goblin get a free pass that isn't granted here to some other Spider-foes? Is Molten Man now a bullet-timer because he has punched Spider-man on past occasions? Kingpin is quick, but is he a bullet-timer? How about Luke Cage, who has repeatedly hit both Green Goblin and Spider-man in the past?

The Drunkard Kid
05-03-2014, 08:17 AM
If they don't start out in the same room, Cap might be able to lure Norman into a trap, especially if there's sufficient ordinance in the bunker to collapse it, especially if GG is near the explosion since vague speed-level aside, dude doesn't have a Spider Sense.

OTOH, Normie is already carrying a lot of explosives, is far more ruthless in non-Khazan settings, and can be a sneaky jerk.

Captain Morgan
05-03-2014, 09:32 AM
Just pointing out, I don't know that we spot Norman Spider-Man level reflexes. Actual speed feats for him might be nice.

Hazard
05-03-2014, 09:55 AM
A 30 second Google search gives me nothing for speed.

Durability and strength should be up there though; so it's not really much trouble for this Rumble.

Captain Morgan
05-03-2014, 09:59 AM
A 30 second Google search gives me nothing for speed.

Durability and strength should be up there though; so it's not really much trouble for this Rumble.

Indeed, and Norman has gear as well. Just want to point out that not every Spider-Man villain actually has reflexes to keep up with him sans PIS. Some do, mind.

Matt the Manly
05-03-2014, 12:30 PM
There was a ruling in the old Rumbles about Green Goblins speed though I dont remember if it was for or against

In any case , By stats I also meant "strength and durability on a Spiderman level". So speed doesn't really affect this particular matchup

Captain Morgan
05-03-2014, 12:41 PM
Honestly though, we might not want to treat Cap's stats as a given. While I've always been in the "Cap has stats comparable to Batman" camp, the old rulings are gone and the dude does have some pretty impressive performances in recent years. What do you guys think?

Matt the Manly
05-03-2014, 12:47 PM
Strictly within the context of this thread, I don't think Caps stats are comparable to spider Man. At all. So he loses to a a guy like Green Goblin

Matt the Manly
05-03-2014, 12:53 PM
Nor do I believe Cap should be classified as anything other than peak human given his feats over decades and Marvel's own insistence on presenting him as a guy enhanced to "the peak of human potential"

MidTierHero
05-03-2014, 01:42 PM
Hahaha this "peak of human potential" line is just a phrase, like calling Namor "the first mutant" (he isn't.) Cap has been dping low-end superhuman from the get-go, and especially in the last decade.

Captain Morgan
05-03-2014, 01:57 PM
Nor do I believe Cap should be classified as anything other than peak human given his feats over decades and Marvel's own insistence on presenting him as a guy enhanced to "the peak of human potential"


I'm inclined to agree. But this IS the chance for people to try and establish otherwise if they are interested, and while I agree with Cap's classic placement I can at least see where the other side is coming from on it. Since I am going to try and argue about a ruling I disagreed with, it seems only fair to extend that courtesy to others.

MorphyVSFischer
05-03-2014, 02:20 PM
Hahaha this "peak of human potential" line is just a phrase, like calling Namor "the first mutant" (he isn't.) Cap has been dping low-end superhuman from the get-go, and especially in the last decade.

Examples? Keep in mind even if you have a feat of him say bullet timing the character is still weighted against the characters 70 year history, just because some are recent doesn't mean we can toss the old examples to the contrary.

The Chou Lives
05-03-2014, 03:08 PM
As mentioned, GG would murder Steve.

Pendaran
05-03-2014, 08:36 PM
Hahaha this "peak of human potential" line is just a phrase, like calling Namor "the first mutant" (he isn't.) Cap has been dping low-end superhuman from the get-go, and especially in the last decade.

There are notes within the last several years of the super soldier serum, in comics, Captain America comics no less, as a thing that takes you to the peak of human potential. Cap despite "doing low end superhuman from the get go" had a flat out entire plot arc from the 70s and then referred to again in the 90s where that version of him was brought out of time, where he was given explicit superstrength as a contrast set up to normally not having it. In fact, there was even another plotline involving that sort of thing in Cap's silver age doings.


Honestly though, we might not want to treat Cap's stats as a given. While I've always been in the "Cap has stats comparable to Batman" camp, the old rulings are gone and the dude does have some pretty impressive performances in recent years. What do you guys think?

That some showings from an entire career where he's explicitly presented in concept and context as not beyond peak human and instead its definition any number of times, to the point of being called out by name as not having things like superstrength don't make all that go away, and man, this really is going to be all this stuff gone through again..

Can't wait for the Thor speed debate to come back. The old rulings are gone after all.

Jonathan
05-03-2014, 09:44 PM
Regardless of the speed issue, Goblin should be too strong for him. But then so should a lot of the characters he's beaten.

Anyways, could someone tell me how to get an avatar up, I'm having trouble with it for some reason.

MidTierHero
05-03-2014, 10:04 PM
So Cap is billed as being the "peak of human potential", but has been performing feats of strength, durability and speed equivalent to that of a low-end superhuman for years.

Matt the Manly
05-03-2014, 10:29 PM
Hahaha this "peak of human potential" line is just a phrase, like calling Namor "the first mutant" (he isn't.)
Its not a factually incorrect phrase as in the case of Namor, it is a character concept wherein Marvel have specifically defined captain America's level as that of a guy at the peak of human potential, as in comic book peak human potential, which is quite impressive in terms of normal, regular humans and what they can do

Captain America's level and that of people with similar feats has been identified by Marvel themselves as peak human and not something explicitly metahuman , unlike for example DCs Deathstroke who is directly referred to as an enhanced metahuman (albeit a low level ons)and has the required feats to back up the same

Out of curiousity, if Cap is a "super human", what is Spiderman? A super-duper Human?

Reed Richards? Super-duper,duper Human?



Cap has been dping low-end superhuman from the get-go, and especially in the last decade.
Batman in the last decade alone tagged two different Flashes, punched out bullets from the air, one shotted Deathstroke, treated Shiva like something of a joke, sliced Doomsday clones who were sending Superman flying with their punches, into pieces with an axe, redirected a blitzing Captain Marvel, kicked hard enough to make Darkseid bleed etc etc

I am glad , we are using only the last decade of feats / other characters jobbing to establish a characters level, nevermind the said characters have been around for at least 5 decades or so , performing at a more or less consistent level

Pendaran
05-03-2014, 11:03 PM
So Cap is billed as being the "peak of human potential", but has been performing feats of strength, durability and speed equivalent to that of a low-end superhuman for years.

Can you reconcile why he's been given whole story arcs of superstrength power ups to contrast him as regularly not having them with this statement? This doesn't otherwise seem to reply to what I had pointed out.

King of Asgard
05-04-2014, 05:48 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ3J8xIl9yE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlgQriclUSw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfSz0bQzZuM
Sorry man, but MCU Cap is nowhere near as strong as Dafoe Goblin.

I call bull.

MidTierHero
05-04-2014, 07:14 AM
So your argument is:

-since there are superpowered people more powerful than Cap, Cap can't be considered superhuman, despite him doing superhuman things?

-since Cap has gotten power ups in the past, that means his baseline can't be that of someone superhuman?

-since a couple of characters have said Cap isn't superhuman in the narrative, that should outweigh the fact that he does superhuman things, or the fact that other characters have said he does superhuman things?

Sorry, can't agree with any of those. Sounds like you're pretty entrenched. Just remember there is a huge range of what is considered "superhuman" in comics. Cap is on the low end, but he's above someone like Batman (who still does things real world people can't do.)

In the end terms like "peak human" and "superhuman" are just labels, and can't be used to dismis out of hand what Cap consistently does.

The Drunkard Kid
05-04-2014, 07:28 AM
Cap is considered peak comic book human, and this is confirmed by other humans with no powers at all (Kingpin, for instance), or at least no notably stat-altering powers (Wolverine, Daredevil), are able to hang with or surpass his showings.

Holacik
05-04-2014, 07:36 AM
So your argument is:

-since there are superpowered people more powerful than Cap, Cap can't be considered superhuman, despite him doing superhuman things?

-since Cap has gotten power ups in the past, that means his baseline can't be that of someone superhuman?

-since a couple of characters have said Cap isn't superhuman in the narrative, that should outweigh the fact that he does superhuman things, or the fact that other characters have said he does superhuman things?

Sorry, can't agree with any of those. Sounds like you're pretty entrenched. Just remember there is a huge range of what is considered "superhuman" in comics. Cap is on the low end, but he's above someone like Batman (who still does things real world people can't do.)

In the end terms like "peak human" and "superhuman" are just labels, and can't be used to dismis out of hand what Cap consistently does.

So what you need to do is to post scans of an unenhanced Cap consistently preforming strength feats that put him in super-human status.

Matt the Manly
05-04-2014, 07:47 AM
So your argument is:

-since there are superpowered people more powerful than Cap, Cap can't be considered superhuman, despite him doing superhuman things?

-since Cap has gotten power ups in the past, that means his baseline can't be that of someone superhuman?

-since a couple of characters have said Cap isn't superhuman in the narrative, that should outweigh the fact that he does superhuman things, or the fact that other characters have said he does superhuman things?

Sorry, can't agree with any of those. Sounds like you're pretty entrenched. Just remember there is a huge range of what is considered "superhuman" in comics. Cap is on the low end, but he's above someone like Batman (who still does things real world people can't do.)

In the end terms like "peak human" and "superhuman" are just labels, and can't be used to dismis out of hand what Cap consistently does.

Please post scans of Cap doing superhuman stuff "consistently"

Lets start with speed. Scans of Cap dodging bullets after they are fired? Start from 1941

Or ok from 1964

Then we move on to strength

Captain Morgan
05-04-2014, 09:23 AM
Can't wait for the Thor speed debate to come back. The old rulings are gone after all.

I am sort of figuring the Thor speed debate will come back, to be honest. Especially if we get a bunch of new posters for the new age. I'm figuring getting some of these issues settled early is probably a good thing, personally. And I figured you would be able to handle the ensuing Cap argument.

big_adventure
05-04-2014, 10:29 AM
Just pointing out, I don't know that we spot Norman Spider-Man level reflexes. Actual speed feats for him might be nice.

We actually do not - there was a mod ruling on it, in fact.

Guy1
05-04-2014, 11:04 AM
I call bull.

Go ahead then. Post vids of MCU Cap being as strong as Dafoe Goblin.

Siriel
05-04-2014, 11:34 AM
Moderator

Okay, so regarding the Peak Human vs Bullet Timer thing.

I didn't bother carrying it over because I figured it would be obvious, but apparently there's at least some level of argument on it.

So: peak human (as used on this forum) is not bullet timing. A bullet timer is above someone with peak human stats (in speed, at least), enough to blitz.

In fact I'll go bring over mod rulings similar to this one, since those at least have no reason to not be kept.


Regarding Captain America being above peak human: The last time this was discussed (at tiresome length) some years ago, there was no consistent evidence for this.
If he has received some power-up since, let's say 2005 to be generous, that would put him on such a level, please post scans and supporting evidence.

Pendaran
05-04-2014, 01:29 PM
-since Cap has gotten power ups in the past, that means his baseline can't be that of someone superhuman?


That's exactly what that means when the entire concept of those power ups was giving him something he otherwise was noted as not having, yes.



Sorry, can't agree with any of those. Sounds like you're pretty entrenched. Just remember there is a huge range of what is considered "superhuman" in comics. Cap is on the low end, but he's above someone like Batman (who still does things real world people can't do.)


You're basically saying that despite it being to the point of being the subject of entire plot arcs that Cap has to get power ups to have explicit superstrength, that he has decades of showings supporting that, that ontop of that in comic statements to that tune continue right along, you can ignore that because of a few showings, and some statements. When the case to the contrary has both of the things you're pointing to, and extended plot runs? That's frankly a great deal more weight. And one that the ruling for was renewed on besides.

big_adventure
05-04-2014, 01:45 PM
Dafoe Goblin is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than MCU Cap. Two feats pop directly to mind:

1. Holding the cable car in one hand without significant stress. Now, it can be argued that this is SMvFLy as hell, since you'd need to be class 50-70 or something to do that (I ran the math on the old forum), but you can't argue that it didn't happen or that it wouldn't require MASSIVE strength.

2. Catching a punch from Peter and just stopping it mid-flight. He did this in their very first fight.

Daenarys Stormborn
05-04-2014, 02:26 PM
Dafoe Goblin is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than MCU Cap. Two feats pop directly to mind:

1. Holding the cable car in one hand without significant stress. Now, it can be argued that this is SMvFLy as hell, since you'd need to be class 50-70 or something to do that (I ran the math on the old forum), but you can't argue that it didn't happen or that it wouldn't require MASSIVE strength.

2. Catching a punch from Peter and just stopping it mid-flight. He did this in their very first fight.

1)I would be interesting in seeing the calculation because I don't understand how you got 50-70 class. A cable car only weights ( from what i could find) about 8 tons. Assuming all the people in it come to about 4 tons that only puts it up to 12. of course holding it 1 hand makes it better, but goblin having enhanced endurance detracts a bit from it. Still, he showed no strain. But how do you jump all the way up to class 50-70? Someone that strong could hurl giant buildings or even monsters at people. Really, 616 spider-man is still stronger than that specific GG feat with lifting or throwing euqal=/heavier stuff.

2) no qualms with 2.

Anarchist
05-04-2014, 02:38 PM
Dafoe-Gobby also had some serious high damage soak. He endured punches from a very PISSED of Tobey-Pete (the same dude who can stop a train) and had a huge wall collapse on him without being, y'know, turned into paste.

@ Topic
This would be a fight (and not a stomp) if it were Ultimate Cap, who (in contrary to 616-Cap) is a confirmed Superhuman with solid Class 10-Level strength.

Acecool
05-04-2014, 03:59 PM
Green Goblin hits Cap with his Glider, even if he was a high damage soak, a half ton of metal hitting you at sixty is going to mess you up.

Then he snaps Cap's neck while he's fumbling around on the ground bleeding to death.

While this is probably a non fight. I would think that cap could get his shield up before the glider hits him.

This would be a better fight if it was a scenario. But at 30 paces away, it should be relatively quick.

Acecool
05-04-2014, 04:04 PM
Dafoe Goblin is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than MCU Cap. Two feats pop directly to mind:

1. Holding the cable car in one hand without significant stress. Now, it can be argued that this is SMvFLy as hell, since you'd need to be class 50-70 or something to do that (I ran the math on the old forum), but you can't argue that it didn't happen or that it wouldn't require MASSIVE strength.
[snip]



The real issue I have with this feat is that gobby should have been dragged to the side by the cable car. That is conservatively about 10 tons pulled to the side with the only counter weight being Mary Jane. Goblin does not have the ability to stick to the nearest surface as an excuse.

big_adventure
05-04-2014, 10:55 PM
1)I would be interesting in seeing the calculation because I don't understand how you got 50-70 class. A cable car only weights ( from what i could find) about 8 tons. Assuming all the people in it come to about 4 tons that only puts it up to 12. of course holding it 1 hand makes it better, but goblin having enhanced endurance detracts a bit from it. Still, he showed no strain. But how do you jump all the way up to class 50-70? Someone that strong could hurl giant buildings or even monsters at people. Really, 616 spider-man is still stronger than that specific GG feat with lifting or throwing euqal=/heavier stuff.


That particular cable car (roosevelt island tramway) weighs more than 10 tons empty and over 20 tons when full, the cables weighs tons by themselves, it can hold 125 people per car, and the calculations required were boosted by the the angle he held it at. It's just physics. This is why the haul cables (the cables that pull the tram) support 350,000 pounds and the support cables (the ones that hold the tram up - this is the one Gobby was holding and that Spidey then caught) support 850,000 pounds. Plus, as you note, holding it casually in one hand is still more impressive.

Anarchist
05-05-2014, 05:38 AM
Well, just like Tobey-Spidey then, with his train-feat.
I think these are 2 rare examples of Movie-Chars being stronger than their Comic-Counterparts.

FrenchGemini
05-05-2014, 06:24 AM
Well, just like Tobey-Spidey then, with his train-feat.
I think these are 2 rare examples of Movie-Chars being stronger than their Comic-Counterparts.

Yup. You have movie Cap too, who is stronger than classic 616-Cap (don't know if he has received a boost since the Marvel NOW thing), being explicitely low-level superhuman, and who thanks to his Winter Soldier feats, is given good odds against his comic counterpart, but I think that's about it.

Daenarys Stormborn
05-05-2014, 02:44 PM
Dafoe-Gobby also had some serious high damage soak. He endured punches from a very PISSED of Tobey-Pete (the same dude who can stop a train) and had a huge wall collapse on him without being, y'know, turned into paste.

@ Topic
This would be a fight (and not a stomp) if it were Ultimate Cap, who (in contrary to 616-Cap) is a confirmed Superhuman with solid Class 10-Level strength.

I think the stomp would actually go the other way if that was done. Ultimate Cap strength was indeed around 10 ( I would say even higher), but when including his smashes with the his shield he was hitting much stronger than that. For durability I'd give him way past 616 spider-man...and he had absurd healing. I remember a panel where it said he could heal bullet wounds in hours and knife wounds in minutes. Anytime he got beat-up he basically be good to go right after unless he was drugged (which, I recall later was impossible because he was immune to everything from smallpox to hiv). And all those times he got smashed by class 50-+ fighter where he needed only minimal recovery to the point he would be back in the fight seconds later or barely bothered were actually consistent...

He was a ture super soldier! I would also put Ultimate Cap as lowest possible end BT as well.

Hell, there was even a panel indicating he learned almost akin to taskmaster does combat for non combat skills.

Syrile Demonthyst
05-06-2014, 05:32 PM
Buwahahahaha... That did not take long at all...

Anyways... Why is Cap fighting Green Goblin?
Steve is a good guy... what did he do to deserve this?

Cape and Cowl
05-06-2014, 06:21 PM
While I have nothing to offer to the Cap vs Goblin fight, I'll gladly jump on board the Steve is a low end metahuman subject if its open. If you want scans I'll post em, whatever.

Pendaran
05-06-2014, 06:36 PM
While I have nothing to offer to the Cap vs Goblin fight, I'll gladly jump on board the Steve is a low end metahuman subject if its open. If you want scans I'll post em, whatever.

The note is one of them having Steve receive an explicit, named power up beyond, say, the usual, so, unless they happen to be one of those..

Cape and Cowl
05-06-2014, 06:41 PM
The note is one of them having Steve receive an explicit, named power up beyond, say, the usual, so, unless they happen to be one of those..

The note? The usual CBPH? The usual Captain America? You're not clear enough for me.

Pendaran
05-06-2014, 06:43 PM
The note? The usual CBPH? The usual Captain America? You're not clear enough for me.

The mod ruling is that unless Cap relatively recently got some explicit named power up to take him beyond the whole peak human thing, that's where the guy is. It's in the rulings thread at that.

Cape and Cowl
05-06-2014, 06:47 PM
Gotcha, same old super soldier still mod-ruled as CBPH. It looked liked for a moment there it was gonna turn into reopening the discussion.

Abishai100
11-11-2014, 02:28 AM
I'd like to make a nice conjecture about the symbolic value of this hypothetical Marvel Comics dominion themed confrontation.

Well, Captain America is the ultimate symbol of crusader outfitting.

The Green Goblin is perhaps the comic book universe's ultimate mischief-mongering terrorist, perhaps more maniacal than the Joker (DC Comics) or Brainiac (DC Comics).

Green Goblin's jet-device enables him to soar through cityscapes and hurl his pumpkin bombs. Captain America's shield is just the right defense tool to ward off these bombs, and then Cap must somehow lunge at the Green Goblin's jet so as to perhaps try to wrestle him off of it.

Such a confrontation is the right mental image to contemplate our modern age fascination with the strength mobiliization and behavior modification that makes super-villains such as the terrifying Scarecrow (DC Comics) so representative of 'anthropological bravado.'

I give the edge to Captain America, since he seems rather fit and willing and capable of wrestling away apocalyptic power from the Green Goblin.




:eek:


Children of the Corn (1984 film) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_the_Corn_(1984_film))


12863

Holacik
11-11-2014, 07:38 AM
-snip-
......What?

Surtur
11-11-2014, 09:28 AM
Well, just like Tobey-Spidey then, with his train-feat.
I think these are 2 rare examples of Movie-Chars being stronger than their Comic-Counterparts.

Is the train feat that far beyond what comic Spider-Man could do? Keeping in mind he used a whole bunch of webbing. I guess what I am asking is..if the Spider-Man movies never happened and the train feat happened in a comic, would it feel out of place?


Children of the Corn (1984 film) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_the_Corn_(1984_film))

So..where does this movie come into play?

big_adventure
11-11-2014, 09:36 AM
Is the train feat that far beyond what comic Spider-Man could do? Keeping in mind he used a whole bunch of webbing. I guess what I am asking is..if the Spider-Man movies never happened and the train feat happened in a comic, would it feel out of place?



So..where does this movie come into play?

Yeah, the train feat is way beyond what comic Spidey can do. He shoots the webbing, then holds it in his hands and stops a speeding subway train that is still powered. That's way past any version of comic Peter.

Acecool
11-11-2014, 08:27 PM
Yeah, the train feat is way beyond what comic Spidey can do. He shoots the webbing, then holds it in his hands and stops a speeding subway train that is still powered. That's way past any version of comic Peter.

I don't think it is so far out of left field. In fact when I saw that scene, I thought about time they demonstrated his comic book strength in a movie.

I am pretty sure though that comic spidey wouldn't be so stupid as to use himself as the sling in his train sling shot. He would probably just web the train about a thousand times long before it ever got close to the end of the track. Further, he might try to lift the engine part of the train off the track via webbing to arrest its momentum.

master of read
11-11-2014, 09:04 PM
I don't think it is so far out of left field. In fact when I saw that scene, I thought about time they demonstrated his comic book strength in a movie.

I am pretty sure though that comic spidey wouldn't be so stupid as to use himself as the sling in his train sling shot. He would probably just web the train about a thousand times long before it ever got close to the end of the track. Further, he might try to lift the engine part of the train off the track via webbing to arrest its momentum.

there was also that time he held up the daily bugle (or a large chunk of it) after having a rather intense fight with a crazier than normal gobby and then was able to web across town to stop reed richards from operating on aunt may.

Jonathan
11-12-2014, 01:16 PM
MCU Cap vs Raimi Goblin would be a closer fight. Goblin would still be stronger but the difference might be smaller and MCU Cap has a hell of a damage soak. That plus Cap's greater skill and the fact that the fight takes place in an underground bunker, eliminating Goblin's flight advantage (unless it has high ceilings) and constraining his use of area attacks (cause he might not be able to get out of blast range) could give Cap the chance to get a win. It would take a long fight though where Cap would have wear down Norman with repeated hits with his shield while avoiding any attempts for Goblin to get him in a grapple.

Even then I would give Goblin 7 out of 10. Remember, Goblin seemed to be even stronger than Spiderman, who was really strong for a movie version of himself. Also, Goblin's glider had a lot of really effective firepower, like those disintegration bombs. Its not impossible that Cap would win, but I think its less than likely.

Anarchist
11-12-2014, 01:35 PM
Raimi-Goblin was strong enough to blunt a punch from Tobey-Spidey with his bare hand and to casually hold a cable car.
Plus, he endured the battering of a bloodlusted Tobey-Spidey without major injuries.

MCU-Cap stands no chance.