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View Full Version : Pre Retcon Beyonder vs Lucifer Morningstar and Michael Demiurgos



Kaid1015
05-03-2014, 05:07 PM
Bloodlusted PIS/CISless deathmatch in a neutral multiverse
Lucifer can not outsmart Beyonder
Who takes this?

The Chou Lives
05-03-2014, 05:27 PM
Well the deal with Beyonder was "He's beyond our universe!" In Marvel U, and due to it, could operate on a higher power than them.

DC is more Judeo Christian in Earth is the most important planet, Lucifer, Michael and etc. Lucifer "programs" realty, and Michael "makes" it with really potent fire power. (Which does nothing to lucifer.)

THe only one to take them on would be the new Presence/Goddess (That Lucifer himself trained, I think.)

So yeah, going to be a fight worth noting. Because the only reason Beyonder went away was being outsmart and CIS. And you removed that.

I am personally going with Beyonder due to his nature of being beyond said realty.

Just my take anyway.

zhris
05-03-2014, 05:28 PM
What would the win condition(s) be? A deathmatch where none of the participants can die might take a while....

MorphyVSFischer
05-03-2014, 05:31 PM
CIS is always on I will point out.

The Chou Lives
05-03-2014, 05:41 PM
CIS is always on I will point out.

I thought CIS was Default like Blood Lust. But like Blood lust you can turn it on and off.

Just what I always saw it as.

MorphyVSFischer
05-03-2014, 05:48 PM
I thought CIS was Default like Blood Lust. But like Blood lust you can turn it on and off.

Just what I always saw it as.

I've always heard it as being always on regardless of what thread starter says.

Surtur
05-03-2014, 07:03 PM
I would say Beyonder is more powerful, but he might not be able to actually permanently kill Lucifer and Michael.

Matt the Manly
05-03-2014, 10:43 PM
Eh Lucifer and Michael created a Multiverse. Twice

And Lucifer withstood a multiversal blast at point blank range without any damage at all

Best Beyonder did in terms of damage soak was tank a hit "that would have destroyed 1 million dimensions"

His other stuff like killing death is not so easily quantifiable

I actually think Team DC might win

big_adventure
05-04-2014, 09:36 AM
Eh Lucifer and Michael created a Multiverse. Twice

And Lucifer withstood a multiversal blast at point blank range without any damage at all

Best Beyonder did in terms of damage soak was tank a hit "that would have destroyed 1 million dimensions"

His other stuff like killing death is not so easily quantifiable

I actually think Team DC might win

The multiverses created by Mike and Lou don't seem to consist of anything like millions of dimensions, so their stuff seems less impressive.

Captain Morgan
05-04-2014, 09:56 AM
The multiverses created by Mike and Lou don't seem to consist of anything like millions of dimensions, so their stuff seems less impressive.

Actually, they did demonstrate that Lucifer's realm contained a multitude of dimensions, though I don't remember a number being stated.

Awesome-X
05-04-2014, 10:03 AM
Bloodlusted PIS/CISless deathmatch in a neutral multiverse
Lucifer can not outsmart Beyonder
Who takes this?
Lucifer & Michael are at max equal to the Living Tribunal in power (although most people usually agree the Living Tribunal is above both of them). and unless I'm mistaken, the Living Tribunal was powerless to stop Pre-Retcon Beyonder, which is why he asked Molecule Man to fight him.


So, If that Info is correct (I never read SW, so I'm just going off what I heard from other people) Beyonder should be able to get a clean win over both of them.

Matt the Manly
05-04-2014, 10:52 AM
The multiverses created by Mike and Lou don't seem to consist of anything like millions of dimensions, so their stuff seems less impressive.

The word "multiverse" has been defined in DC as a collection of infinite universes

Lucifer is a DC character, in fact the argument can be made that Lucifer shaped the original DC Multiverse given his interactions with Dream/Death/Destiny various events from the series being referred to in titles like Hellblazer, Spectre etc

In any case no other definition of multiverse other than infinite universes existed in DC at the time the comment was made

zhris
05-04-2014, 11:01 AM
Lucifer & Michael are at max equal to the Living Tribunal in power (although most people usually agree the Living Tribunal is above both of them). and unless I'm mistaken, the Living Tribunal was powerless to stop Pre-Retcon Beyonder, which is why he asked Molecule Man to fight him.


So, If that Info is correct (I never read SW, so I'm just going off what I heard from other people) Beyonder should be able to get a clean win over both of them.

Lucifer and Michael have been described as the 2nd and 3rd most powerful beings in the DCU (after The Presence). Not sure how that equates to LT or Yondy.

Anarchist
05-04-2014, 02:06 PM
Lucifer and Michael have been described as the 2nd and 3rd most powerful beings in the DCU (after The Presence). Not sure how that equates to LT or Yondy.

Well, the LT IS the second most powerful Entity in the MU (after Molecule Man and Beyonder have been nerfed).

Black Angel
05-08-2014, 10:47 AM
hmmm well since beyonder is blood lusted i give it to him. It will not be easy though since lucifer and michael can shrug off multiversal level of destruction.

T51R
05-08-2014, 05:47 PM
Question; has the Beyonder ever shrugged off anything on the scale of Creation itself? Because that's what Michael is; the vessel of the power of Creation(Durmurgios) Lucifer is The Shaper.

Which either way, requires Michael to commit suicide with explosives. Literally.

big_adventure
05-09-2014, 01:37 AM
PR Beyonder shrugged of a shot that "would have slagged a few million entire dimensions" fired by the only other dude would could have leveled such a thing (PR Molecule Man). So, yeah, no worries there.

Slade1
05-09-2014, 06:04 AM
I've always heard it as being always on regardless of what thread starter says.

No, Bloodlust and CIS can be turned off. PIS is always off.

big_adventure
05-09-2014, 07:43 AM
No, Bloodlust and CIS can be turned off. PIS is always off.

Nope, bloodlust can be turned off, but CIS is always on. Rhino is always a moron.

Slade1
05-09-2014, 08:49 AM
Nope, bloodlust can be turned off, but CIS is always on. Rhino is always a moron.

Really? I thought CIS could be turned off. My mistake then.

big_adventure
05-09-2014, 09:51 AM
Really? I thought CIS could be turned off. My mistake then.

Nah - problem is, it's such a fundamental part of the character.

I mean, you could always create a scenario that said "Rhino's body infused with Peter Parker's brain versus X"

Basically:

PIS - Off always
CIS - On, if it exists, always
Bloodlust - dealer's choice

Matt the Manly
05-10-2014, 03:24 AM
PR Beyonder shrugged of a shot that "would have slagged a few million entire dimensions" fired by the only other dude would could have leveled such a thing (PR Molecule Man). So, yeah, no worries there.

The thing is , Beyonder shrugged off a blast that "would have destroyed 1 million dimensions". The first thing here is this is only a character statement with nothing to back it up. At least when Lucifer says " I created a Multiverse", we do actually see a different dimension , outside of God's creation. And Mazikeen also notes "there is a difference in size".

Secondly , even if we assume that it was a million dimensions, million is still only a definite number. As opposed to "Multiverse" and its definition at the time of the statement being made, at various points in the story, Michael's death would wipe out all of creation being noted

And thirdly, and this is the main thing, Michael's creation wiping blast is not affected by his own condition. He is only a "vessel" for the Demuirgic Power, the infinite power of God himself. He can keep releasing creation wiping blast after creation wiping blast with Lucifer reconstituting him every time

Case in point when Michael, having just given up his power to hold together Creation, travels to Raganork on a journey that leaves Lucifer himself unconscious, then battles with Lucifer while holding back to the point of his death,and his power was STILL enough to wipe out both Gods and Lucifers creation at the same time

I mean its pretty clear to me that the only reason Michael ever lost was because he couldn't risk using his full creation wiping power.

In fact I also think that Michael resurrected himself after the multiverse creating blast, but in any case given Lucifer is here , he can just keep resurrect ing him anyway

Also the Beyonder was going all "Koff Koff" from MM s attack as opposed to Lucifer just sticking his sword in and tanking the blast like nothing


I think the Team wins

edit: It was actually several billion dimensions that the Beyonder tanked

big_adventure
05-10-2014, 04:50 AM
The thing is , Beyonder shrugged off a blast that "would have destroyed 1 million dimensions". The first thing here is this is only a character statement with nothing to back it up. At least when Lucifer says " I created a Multiverse", we do actually see a different dimension , outside of God's creation. And Mazikeen also notes "there is a difference in size".

Secondly , even if we assume that it was a million dimensions, million is still only a definite number. As opposed to "Multiverse" and its definition at the time of the statement being made, at various points in the story, Michael's death would wipe out all of creation being noted

And thirdly, and this is the main thing, Michael's creation wiping blast is not affected by his own condition. He is only a "vessel" for the Demuirgic Power, the infinite power of God himself. He can keep releasing creation wiping blast after creation wiping blast with Lucifer reconstituting him every time

Case in point when Michael, having just given up his power to hold together Creation, travels to Raganork on a journey that leaves Lucifer himself unconscious, then battles with Lucifer while holding back to the point of his death,and his power was STILL enough to wipe out both Gods and Lucifers creation at the same time

I mean its pretty clear to me that the only reason Michael ever lost was because he couldn't risk using his full creation wiping power.

In fact I also think that Michael resurrected himself after the multiverse creating blast, but in any case given Lucifer is here , he can just keep resurrect ing him anyway

Also the Beyonder was going all "Koff Koff" from MM s attack as opposed to Lucifer just sticking his sword in and tanking the blast like nothing


I think the Team wins

edit: It was actually several billion dimensions that the Beyonder tanked

Michael and Lucifer are both shown and accepted to be well less than "omnipotent" and well less than The Presence / God. PR Beyonder is explicitly stated and shown to be ABOVE the TOAA-level, and is roughly shown as omnipotent.

Another way to put this - I have never seen it argued that Lucifer could take down the LT, and the Beyonder wouldn't really notice the LT coming after him - something the LT wouldn't do, since he's peeing golden pee down his golden leg at the thought of getting anywhere near the Beyonder.

Matt the Manly
05-10-2014, 06:01 AM
Michael and Lucifer are both shown and accepted to be well less than "omnipotent" and well less than The Presence / God. PR Beyonder is explicitly stated and shown to be ABOVE the TOAA-level, and is roughly shown as omnipotent

TOAA is the writer himself as of now so I fail to see how Beyonder can be above TOAA

At the time he was introduced, he was presented as a being encompassing all that was "beyond" the multiverse.

While this makes him very powerful, it doesnt mean he is omnipotent at all.

Otherwise had he been omnipotent, MM wouldn't have been able to transport his energies like he did at the end of SW had he been truly OMNIpotent.

Similarly Lucifer was also not omnipotent given he couldn't take on the Basanos when weakened. Omnipotent would mean that it would be impossible to hurt him at all times.

they are both nigh omnipotent.

Plus it is stated on panel that Michael is "God's power"

And if we are really going into details here, Lucifer becomes one with the Void at the end of the series, the void being specifically shown as being infinite, containing endless creations

I mean I don't think people truly appreciate the feat. He tanked a blast. That would have wiped out ALL of creation. Without flinching. Even beyonder was coughing from the Billion dimensions attack.

Lucifer's feat is one of the most impressive in all of fiction for me.







Another way to put this - I have never seen it argued that Lucifer could take down the LT, and the Beyonder wouldn't really notice the LT coming after him - something the LT wouldn't do, since he's peeing golden pee down his golden leg at the thought of getting anywhere near the Beyonder.
I dont see why Lucifer couldnt beat LT at all given all the other people who have managed to do so

LTs one truly jaw dropping feat is claiming he is more powerful than the Gauntlet, which is considered multiversal because of overriding the Ultimate Nullifier

But in the same arc , Infinty and Eternity overpowered the (incomplete) Gauntlet. Are they above the Nullifier too?

Or was it just a case of Quasar being hilariously inept in his use of the Nullifier
Otherwise the Gauntlet and the LT have both been portrayed as super powered cosmoc beings/ artifacts / above universal level but needing to work to take down other cosmics

Lucifer at his peak was hurt only by Michael and people with Gods Power and flat out ignored a blast that would have wiped out all of creation

big_adventure
05-10-2014, 07:50 AM
TOAA is the writer himself as of now so I fail to see how Beyonder can be above TOAA

At the time he was introduced, he was presented as a being encompassing all that was "beyond" the multiverse.

While this makes him very powerful, it doesnt mean he is omnipotent at all.

Otherwise had he been omnipotent, MM wouldn't have been able to transport his energies like he did at the end of SW had he been truly OMNIpotent.

Similarly Lucifer was also not omnipotent given he couldn't take on the Basanos when weakened. Omnipotent would mean that it would be impossible to hurt him at all times.

they are both nigh omnipotent.

Plus it is stated on panel that Michael is "God's power"

And if we are really going into details here, Lucifer becomes one with the Void at the end of the series, the void being specifically shown as being infinite, containing endless creations

I mean I don't think people truly appreciate the feat. He tanked a blast. That would have wiped out ALL of creation. Without flinching. Even beyonder was coughing from the Billion dimensions attack.

Lucifer's feat is one of the most impressive in all of fiction for me.







I dont see why Lucifer couldnt beat LT at all given all the other people who have managed to do so

LTs one truly jaw dropping feat is claiming he is more powerful than the Gauntlet, which is considered multiversal because of overriding the Ultimate Nullifier

But in the same arc , Infinty and Eternity overpowered the (incomplete) Gauntlet. Are they above the Nullifier too?

Or was it just a case of Quasar being hilariously inept in his use of the Nullifier
Otherwise the Gauntlet and the LT have both been portrayed as super powered cosmoc beings/ artifacts / above universal level but needing to work to take down other cosmics

Lucifer at his peak was hurt only by Michael and people with Gods Power and flat out ignored a blast that would have wiped out all of creation

Thing is, Lucifer's feat is specifically linked to who he is - his whole reason for being, in his storyline, is shaping the energies Michael releases. Its a bit like claiming Superman is "tanking" the sun when he dips through it. His whole system is designed to handle that specific energy, so it isn't at all related to his durability.

I suppose it is open to interpretation. I can say that Lucy and Mike have not traditionally been viewed as guys who handle the LT on this board.

And you are selling the LT awfully short there: Galactus and Eternity are reduced to begging the guy for a favor.

Matt the Manly
05-10-2014, 11:56 AM
Thing is, Lucifer's feat is specifically linked to who he is - his whole reason for being, in his storyline, is shaping the energies Michael releases. Its a bit like claiming Superman is "tanking" the sun when he dips through it. His whole system is designed to handle that specific energy, so it isn't at all related to his durability.
Nowhere is it noted that Lucifer has some special kind of resistance to Michaels power. All that is noted is that Licifer has "infinite will", the will of God and Michael "the power of God", a power he shows by holding together Gods creation when God left

In fact on various occasions in the series, notably their last fight, both of them hurt each other

Also in the very beginning, it was shown that "when Mike finally joined the battle, the host was routed". This includes Lucifer and the condition he was in , in the one flashback scene.

This being the same Lucifer who has himself previously noted that the only angels that matter are him and Michael(in terms of power) though you could argue his wounds were inflicted by Gabriel whom he was fighting, who was also Gods Infinte something so its the same thing

And when the Lilim offer their arms Lucifer notes , his will can create a universe out of anything regardless of the source( though its also to be noted that this might be a vain boast given the only times Creations were made was with Gods demuirgic power)

And also just to clarify. Lucifer wasnt created to "shape the universe". in fact I myself made an incorrect claim of Lucifer having created the DC multiverse

It is specifically noted in Lucifer 14 that this is the first time Lucifer is creating a universe, the first one having been made by God

Besides Lucifer is called stuff like the "most powerful being after God" , he causes dimensions to collapse by his very presence etc. and really just like the Beyonder, he IS (was) the ruler of a multiverse after all, and does stuff like turn little girls into Goddesses within his realm( although admitedly one of them was an angel already)

From his presentation and stuff like " an explosion that had been seen only once previously" , also stuff like " the ability to shape suns" and whatnot indicate that he was conceived as a character who at the very least can tank the energies of suns

Given his will is called infinite on multiple occasions, him resisting reality warping from the Basanos( who were later rolling over cities like nothing, "turning entropy on itself") etc , I cant think of any reason why the blast he tanked wasnt anything other than tanking


I suppose it is open to interpretation. I can say that Lucy and Mike have not traditionally been viewed as guys who handle the LT on this board.
I have never seen LT shape a multiverse/release enough energy to create one with his power . Universe , yes , just not a Multiverse


And you are selling the LT awfully short there: Galactus and Eternity are reduced to begging the guy for a favor.
Im not selling LT short at all. I already said he is an above universal dude, Im pretty sure at some point he created the 616 universe with no effort at all

Im also saying that barring drastic circumstances, LT is the second most powerful being in Marvel under normal circumstances

Its just when people start saying "LT LOLnoped the Gauntlet, which LOLnoped the Nullifier, which restarted the Multiverse", that the point starts getting stretched

Thats one very dubious example of using something as evidence of LT being some sort of guy above multiversal (as in the WHOLE multiverse) when on other occasions LT cant beat Last Planet Standing Galactus, he couldnt beat some alt dimension Korvac etc

LT is presented as the "strongest guy" in marvel but that doesnt necessarily mean the nigh omnipotence / infinite will of Lucifer Nor does it mean LT is the creator of Marvel miltiverse like Lucifer was. Unlike LT , at no point was a full power Lucifer even threatened by anything other than 1) his own power 2) Gods power

LT is stronger than any single cosmic / or all of them from one universe in Marvel but not necessarily stronger than the entire multiverse itself, as shown by him lying half dead on the moon recently

Even with God gone, and his power weakening Lucifer was still shaping universes

But even if we assume The Team are only a match for Beyonder(a legit God type, nigh omnipotent multiversal guy unlike LT),they can literally keep firing creation wiping blasts again and again and again no matter what shape they are in

I dont think even Beyonder can tank that


Also , just to clarify "creation wiping blast" here. Izanamis kingdom is referred to as a realm, Lucifer collapses an entire "dimension" on another occasion, Michael kept alive a pocket dimension with his power etc.

When Mazikeen says "Now you have a realm"
Lucifer corrects her by saying "No a Multiverse"
Mazikeen says " There is a differnece only in scale"


The various other dimensions and realms shown in the story (including at one point unfinished universes ) all seem to be part of either God or Lucifers creations

When God finally shows up , only three creations are shown as all that exists.

Clearly these realms are part of Creations
Michaels death would have wiped out not only Both Creations but "all that exists"

Pendaran
05-10-2014, 12:39 PM
Thats one very dubious example of using something as evidence of LT being some sort of guy above multiversal (as in the WHOLE multiverse) when on other occasions LT cant beat Last Planet Standing Galactus, he couldnt beat some alt dimension Korvac etc


You're invoking What Ifs and Alt realities there.



Its just when people start saying "LT LOLnoped the Gauntlet, which LOLnoped the Nullifier, which restarted the Multiverse", that the point starts getting stretched

It doesn't need that last part. The Living Tribunal preventing the Infinity Gauntlet from being able to come together such that when it is brought together the gems themselves go dead is a big enough deal.



But in the same arc , Infinty and Eternity overpowered the (incomplete) Gauntlet. Are they above the Nullifier too?


They were not exactly working alone as far as Adam Warlock also contesting the Magus' control of the Gauntlet (to the point that he was the one who put reality back together with it post fight).

Matt the Manly
05-10-2014, 01:04 PM
You're invoking What Ifs and Alt realities there.
There is only one LT in the multiverse so those are all things that actually happened



It doesn't need that last part. The Living Tribunal preventing the Infinity Gauntlet from being able to come together such that when it is brought together the gems themselves go dead is a big enough deal.
No doubt. But the gauntlet itself was not displaying anything like Beyonder or say Thanos with HOTU level entire multiverse affecting power. LT overriding the Gauntlet does not in itself put him above Lucifer who was shaping universes when explicitly weakened


They were not exactly working alone as far as Adam Warlock also contesting the Magus' control of the Gauntlet (to the point that he was the one who put reality back together with it post fight).
Again, neither Warlock not Infinity/Eternity are even comparable to the "restarting the Multiverse" level powers that the UN when properly used has shown, which is the claim being made here to showcase both the IG and LT being on par with Lucifer Morningstar and Michael

Pendaran
05-10-2014, 03:31 PM
There is only one LT in the multiverse so those are all things that actually happened

Okay, then let me put that another way. When the Tribunal can "nope!" the Gauntlet, talking about problems with Galactus or Korvac is severely lowballing the guy.


Again, neither Warlock not Infinity/Eternity are even comparable to the "restarting the Multiverse" level powers that the UN when properly used has shown, which is the claim being made here to showcase both the IG and LT being on par with Lucifer Morningstar and Michael

Eh. Putting the 616 reality back together as it outright starts to fall apart, while completely missing the gem that guides doing anything to reality, with all of comatose as the result, is pretty solid.

Matt the Manly
05-10-2014, 09:21 PM
Okay, then let me put that another way. When the Tribunal can "nope!" the Gauntlet, talking about problems with Galactus or Korvac is severely lowballing the guy.
These were not regular versions of these guys. These were powered up one shot versions of the guys specifically meant to show that at full power they can even trouble the tribunal. They may or may not be stronger than the IG. For eg LPS Galactus for one was straight up taking shots from an army of abstracts

Plus Im not even convinced LT can LoLnope the Gauntlet once it has been assembled given his confrontation with Warlock.






Eh. Putting the 616 reality back together as it outright starts to fall apart, while completely missing the gem that guides doing anything to reality, with all of comatose as the result, is pretty solid.
It is a solid confirmation of the Incomplete Gauntlet being a universal level artifact. The Spectre is above the Incomplete Gauntlet if we are going by that one feat given Spectre was pushing apart two universes collapsing upon each other.

The Complete Gauntlet is clearly an above universal artifiact( easily above the likes of Spectre given the ease with which it was doing stuff, dismissing the Embodiment of the Universe like nothing) just like LT is an above universal entity but neither have shown anything to indicate they are on a "recreate the multiverse" level of power like Reed with the UN. They may possibly be more powerful, but they dont have the feats to match a competent UN weilder

Or to put it another way, the Gauntlet when weakened( incomplete) is defeated by the living embodiment of a universe. Michael when having just sacrifed unknown amounts of His power to hold together Gods creation, having gone through a journey that left Lucifer unconscious and Elaine blinded, having fought to the death against an amped Lucifer, all this while God has already left Creation and both Lucifer and Michaels power steadily weakening, Michael still upon releasing his full energies would have wiped out "all that exists" instantly

Or really Lucifer in much the same confition shaping Elaines Creation right afterword

Pendaran
05-10-2014, 09:51 PM
It is a solid confirmation of the Incomplete Gauntlet being a universal level artifact. The Spectre is above the Incomplete Gauntlet if we are going by that one feat given Spectre was pushing apart two universes collapsing upon each other.

To be accurate in full, the incomplete gauntlet casually overwrote the 616 universe with whatever thing the Magus was turning it into when the cosmic cubes could only do so slowly. The Magus having instead done so with all of a thought whereas with the cubes it would have taken hours. The act of fighting over the incomplete gauntlet was triggering the collapse of said universe. The incomplete gauntlet, then both ended said collapse and also restored said universe to its original factory settings, as it were. It's also worth noting all of that happened despite that the Magus started all that off from his outside 616 dimension (makes explicit references to 616 as a separate universe).

Soo.. when one is fucking up reality like that, while to a certain measure outside of said reality. Eh. I'm not really buying where you seem to be going with this honestly, especially when you now change your statements to...


These were not regular versions of these guys. These were powered up one shot versions of the guys specifically meant to show that at full power they can even trouble the tribunal. They may or may not be stronger than the IG. For eg LPS Galactus for one was straight up taking shots from an army of abstracts

So basically this part of your argument is based on characters powered up to some unknowable degree.

If the Incomplete Gauntlet is "universal" it is in fact /casually/ so, and the /side effect/ of trying to contest for it can cause reality collapse, while not even quite in that reality. That is different than what you are trying to say.



Or to put it another way, the Gauntlet when weakened( incomplete) is defeated by the living embodiment of a universe.

While also being contested by Adam Warlock for control.

Matt the Manly
05-10-2014, 11:07 PM
To be accurate in full, the incomplete gauntlet casually overwrote the 616 universe with whatever thing the Magus was turning it into when the cosmic cubes could only do so slowly. The Magus having instead done so with all of a thought whereas with the cubes it would have taken hours. The act of fighting over the incomplete gauntlet was triggering the collapse of said universe. The incomplete gauntlet, then both ended said collapse and also restored said universe to its original factory settings, as it were. It's also worth noting all of that happened despite that the Magus started all that off from his outside 616 dimension (makes explicit references to 616 as a separate universe).

Soo.. when one is fucking up reality like that, while to a certain measure outside of said reality.
Magus doing his whole universe merging thing, from several realities away doesnt change the fact that it was only a universe. This is like Darkseid / Mandarrk collapsing the main DCU with his fall/ setting off crises in the other universes or Spectres magic messing up things in the Fifth Dimension, though of course Magus ' feat is more impressive given he was turning an entire universe into something else





Eh. I'm not really buying where you seem to be going with this honestly, especially when you now change your statements to...

So basically this part of your argument is based on characters powered up to some unknowable degree.

No that part of my argument, which is something I have claimed all along, is that the Living Tribunal , while ridiculously powerful , is beaten by power that is not his own/ his universe' God's. Therefore powers do exist in the marvel multiverse which are more powerful than LT without directly being the part of TOAA( for eg Thanos with HOTU is the power of TOAA)

The same is not true for Lucifer


If the Incomplete Gauntlet is "universal" it is in fact /casually/ so, and the /side effect/ of trying to contest for it can cause reality collapse, while not even quite in that reality. That is different than what you are trying to say.
Given that this was a reality was one which Magus was in the process of transforming with the gauntlet , yes, of course someone interfering/ fighting for the gauntlet would cause that reality to collapse

In any case , even if it was collapsing one reality, it was overcome with the universal embodiment of the same eventually , showing that the incomplete gauntlet peaked out at universal



While also being contested by Adam Warlock for control.
Given that Magus actually had the gauntlet on his hand at the time, along with 5 gems, Warlock contesting really made little or no difference /a distraction at best

Also just to apply your argument here If you are going "Look the IG was affecting one universe casually, it must be multiversal.", I could also go " Look Lucifer tanked a multiversal blast casually, he must be megaversal/omniversal/ whatever fancy term they are bandying about these days" and so on and so forth, but the fact is , the IG was affecting only one universe, was eventually overwhelmed specifically because it was incomplete. The Complete IG is clearly above universal but I have seen nothing to put it(or LT) on "affecting the entire multiverse level", especially when later we have stuff like IGs for the whole multiverse/ IG not working outside its home universe etc

Pendaran
05-11-2014, 12:28 AM
Magus doing his whole universe merging thing, from several realities away doesnt change the fact that it was only a universe. This is like Darkseid / Mandarrk collapsing the main DCU with his fall/ setting off crises in the other universes or Spectres magic messing up things in the Fifth Dimension, though of course Magus ' feat is more impressive given he was turning an entire universe into something else

No, that is not anything like that, considering the bit with Darkseid had as much to do with Darkseid's metaphysical position as "Evil" (which is, as an aside, stupid, plenty of things in the DCU previously defined evil, but whatever Grant) or whatever and the result of "Evil" now dying as far as the archetypal definitions of the universe or whatever, whereas the Magus simply willed it so with a thought, without the Magus needing to also be a metaphor for anything.


Given that this was a reality was one which Magus was in the process of transforming with the gauntlet , yes, of course someone interfering/ fighting for the gauntlet would cause that reality to collapse

No, he already transformed it.



In any case , even if it was collapsing one reality, it was overcome with the universal embodiment of the same eventually , showing that the incomplete gauntlet peaked out at universal

Along with Adam Warlock contesting him for use of the Gauntlet, considering that all ended with Adam Warlock controlling the Gauntlet.


Given that Magus actually had the gauntlet on his hand at the time, along with 5 gems, Warlock contesting really made little or no difference /a distraction at best

No. All of Warlock alone contesting the Magus for the Gauntlet set off the explosions and the like in the first place. To similarly say it made no difference besides ignores that Warlock ended up with the Gauntlet and used it to fix reality. It's not like Eternity likes anyone, using or having it, ever.



Also just to apply your argument here If you are going "Look the IG was affecting one universe casually, it must be multiversal.", I could also go " Look Lucifer tanked a multiversal blast casually, he must be megaversal/omniversal/ whatever fancy term they are bandying about these days" and so on and so forth, but the fact is , the IG was affecting only one universe, was eventually overwhelmed specifically because it was incomplete. The Complete IG is clearly above universal but I have seen nothing to put it(or LT) on "affecting the entire multiverse level", especially when later we have stuff like IGs for the whole multiverse/ IG not working outside its home universe etc

You're now making up an argument to have with yourself. When particularly did I say Lucifer hadn't screwed around on a multiversal level. I'm one of the people who argues for that pretty routinely.

It remains that you keep trying to claim something is "universal" that did "universal" effects both casually and as side effects, while not even in the universe in question. It's akin to saying if a guy lifts ten tons with his pinky finger, clearly he can only lift ten tons and should not be regarded as far stronger than that.


The Complete IG is clearly above universal but I have seen nothing to put it(or LT) on "affecting the entire multiverse level", especially when later we have stuff like IGs for the whole multiverse/ IG not working outside its home universe etc

He blocked the Gauntlet from being able to work at all, and considering both the Gauntlet and at current, your own arguments, works fine enough for me. Supports just fine what it did to the nullifier frankly.

You're otherwise citing things from long after that, when some writers basically decided the Gauntlet now functioned differently without even a reboot or retcon to go with it, and also ignored the hell out of things like the Tribunal's ruling existing at all for.. no particularly given reason. Which is not even some kind of post crisis Darkseid situation, that's just straight up deciding a thing now works entirely differently.

Far more relevantly though, at the time of the Tribunal's ruling that effed with the Gauntlet, it worked how it worked and did what it did.


No that part of my argument, which is something I have claimed all along, is that the Living Tribunal , while ridiculously powerful , is beaten by power that is not his own/ his universe' God's. Therefore powers do exist in the marvel multiverse which are more powerful than LT without directly being the part of TOAA( for eg Thanos with HOTU is the power of TOAA)

The same is not true for Lucifer

Then this part of your argument has no meaning, as it is basically going that because the Tribunal had trouble with beings of completely nebulous power, that clearly means he is on some lesser level.

You made a claim about the limits of the Gauntlet's power and with it things vis a vis the Living Tribunal's power. You based that claim on things that do not reconcile as supporting that claim. You want to talk about "later writers decided the Gauntlet is now a lesser thing", hey, that would almost be something, if you ditched pretty much everything else you otherwise said before bringing that up. The stuff you tried to talk about instead has problems ranging from deciding that doing something casually means the power of a thing is clearly limited to that casual thing, that showings involving beings of nebulous power matter for anything, that someone contesting a guy for a thing is irrelevant... and so forth.

I'm going to sum up here. Whether or not Lucifer could wax the Living Tribunal, eh, I don't really have a grand opinion there.

Your problems though are that the arguments you are trying to make for that he could involve talking about a thing, in ways inaccurate to that thing, talking about the Tribunal versus entities of nebulous capacity, or otherwise making comparisons that fall apart as far as things about Lucifer himself.

Pendaran
05-11-2014, 12:45 AM
Also, if we're going to get technical about this stuff, which we apparently are, things like having to force a journey to the world tree fucked Lucifer up pretty hard. There were things not the Presence or of it that hurt the guy. Which, considering Fenris himself had to take hilariously ornate precautions to avoid getting done up similarly, that's obviously not an insignificant thing. It is of course nebulous, and thereby not normally worth mentioning, but if you're going to invoke nebulous things, while also saying Lucifer only had Presence affiliated troubles, well..

Pendaran
05-11-2014, 01:34 AM
With all that said, having missed this..


Thing is, Lucifer's feat is specifically linked to who he is - his whole reason for being, in his storyline, is shaping the energies Michael releases. Its a bit like claiming Superman is "tanking" the sun when he dips through it. His whole system is designed to handle that specific energy, so it isn't at all related to his durability.

No, you're confusing Lucifer with being "the Human Deimurgic Power" or something. Something being released in a massive creation scouring blast is not the same as some energy being around to shape. Lucifer doesn't have some specific immunity to that stuff.

big_adventure
05-11-2014, 01:42 AM
With all that said, having missed this..



No, you're confusing Lucifer with being "the Human Deimurgic Power" or something. Something being released in a massive creation scouring blast is not the same as some energy being around to shape. Lucifer doesn't have some specific immunity to that stuff.

I'll take your word for it - I don't claim a high expertise on Lucifer, but I always interpreted his handling of the creation power as being a specific thing for him.

I still haven't seen much that would put him on PR Beyonder's level.

Pendaran
05-11-2014, 01:45 AM
I'm not really super into noodling that one, omnipotent v omnipotent fights are kinda wearying.

big_adventure
05-11-2014, 02:34 AM
I'm not really super into noodling that one, omnipotent v omnipotent fights are kinda wearying.

But my omnipotent it more omnipotent than yours is...

Matt the Manly
05-11-2014, 03:15 AM
No, that is not anything like that, considering the bit with Darkseid had as much to do with Darkseid's metaphysical position as "Evil" (which is, as an aside, stupid, plenty of things in the DCU previously defined evil, but whatever Grant) or whatever and the result of "Evil" now dying as far as the archetypal definitions of the universe or whatever, whereas the Magus simply willed it so with a thought, without the Magus needing to also be a metaphor for anything.
Granted but it was one of the few similar instances I could think of Another being Spectres rampage in DoV and PC Fate affecting two worlds


No, he already transformed it.
Yes it seems he did. My bad




Along with Adam Warlock contesting him for use of the Gauntlet, considering that all ended with Adam Warlock controlling the Gauntlet.
No Warlock had already been shrugged off when Eternity/Infinty joined the battle Warlock was not in contact when Eternity/Infinity started warping reality around Magus , it is specifically stated by Thanos that the reason Magus lost was because he didnt have the Reality Gem which the Universal entities took advantage of to beat him/ Warlock to take the power/ Eternity to make the ruling via LTs power




. All of Warlock alone contesting the Magus for the Gauntlet set off the explosions and the like in the first place. To similarly say it made no difference besides ignores that Warlock ended up with the Gauntlet and used it to fix reality. It's not like Eternity likes anyone, using or having it, ever.
Eternity was super grateful to Adam at the end of it all so I dunno why he wouldn't let him use it to fix things once and for all before shutting it down

Reality was specifically noted by Dr Strange to be falling apart because they didnt have the gem.

Eternity/Infinity were warping reality as Adam notes "Reality is playing tricks on you " before barfing out the source Eternity/Infinty, who were only able to harm him BECAUSE he didnt have control over Reality as is noted by Thanos and the Infinity Watch later




You're now making up an argument to have with yourself. When particularly did I say Lucifer hadn't screwed around on a multiversal level. I'm one of the people who argues for that pretty routinely.
I am not saying that at all. There is a misunderstanding here. What I am saying is that the incomplete Gauntlet is not universal given it was beaten by universal entities, the reason being specifically given as because of it being incomplete

The other argument here is for the complete Gauntlet which you say (and I agree) is multiversal. Just not as in "affecting the ENTIRE multiverse" multiversal. Because it does not have feats for the same /was turned down by LT who doesn't have feats for the same

This is like the Sentry feat. Logic dictates that his microverse feat is Odin level at least but we don't actually see anything beyond planets busting. Similarly the Gauntlet is clearly above universal level, I just don't see any reason to equate it with Lucifers level

Or in other words, The Gauntlet doing universal stuff casually doesnt mean it is multiversal just like Lucifer doing multiversal stuff casually doesn't mean he is omniversal



remains that you keep trying to claim something is "universal" that did "universal" effects both casually and as side effects, while not even in the universe in question. It's akin to saying if a guy lifts ten tons with his pinky finger, clearly he can only lift ten tons and should not be regarded as far stronger than that.
The reason I keep saying the incomplete Gauntlet is universal is because it ended up being punked because reality was being warped by Universal entities

The Complete Gauntlet is of course above universal , but how far above? Certainly less than LT , who himself lacks any "entire multiverse" feats/ was shitting his pants when facing a guy who was basically an entire multiverse



blocked the Gauntlet from being able to work at all, and considering both the Gauntlet and at current, your own arguments, works fine enough for me. Supports just fine what it did to the nullifier frankly.
It doesn't work just fine given the Nullifier failed to at the very basic level unnerve Magus by altering reality like Eternity and Infinity did, so unless Eternity is now above an object that has recreated the multiverse , that seems like poor use of the nullifier to me rather than any proof of multiversal power




You're otherwise citing things from long after that, when some writers basically decided the Gauntlet now functioned differently without even a reboot or retcon to go with it, and also ignored the hell out of things like the Tribunal's ruling existing at all for.. no particularly given reason. Which is not even some kind of post crisis Darkseid situation, that's just straight up deciding a thing now works entirely differently.

Far more relevantly though, at the time of the Tribunal's ruling that effed with the Gauntlet, it worked how it worked and did what it did.


Which is all fine and dandy but the fact reamains neither the original IG nor LT have any multiversal feats outside of no selling an UN attack, which did less damage than Eternity




Then this part of your argument has no meaning, as it is basically going that because the Tribunal had trouble with beings of completely nebulous power, that clearly means he is on some lesser level.
Yes by presentation, Lucifer is the Lord of a Multiverse who is more powerful than anyone save God. LT is a judge whose orders are sometimes not obeyed by people who are absolutely not God( remember that weird Protege story although that was full of continuity errors?)


You made a claim about the limits of the Gauntlet's power and with it things vis a vis the Living Tribunal's power. You based that claim on things that do not reconcile as supporting that claim. You want to talk about "later writers decided the Gauntlet is now a lesser thing", hey, that would almost be something, if you ditched pretty much everything else you otherwise said before bringing that up. The stuff you tried to talk about instead has problems ranging from deciding that doing something casually means the power of a thing is clearly limited to that casual thing, that showings involving beings of nebulous power matter for anything, that someone contesting a guy for a thing is irrelevant... and so forth.
I am straight up quoting from the issue now
"For reality is playing diabolical tricks on you now , would be conqueror!"
Magus: " Having trouble...focussing my cosmic perceptions"
Eternity reaches out. Massive explosion


I'm going to sum up here. Whether or not Lucifer could wax the Living Tribunal, eh, I don't really have a grand opinion there.

Your problems though are that the arguments you are trying to make for that he could involve talking about a thing, in ways inaccurate to that thing, talking about the Tribunal versus entities of nebulous capacity, or otherwise making comparisons that fall apart as far as things about Lucifer himself.
All I am asking for are feats for LT/ or the Gauntlet on the scale of wiping out a multiverse/ ignoring such a blast

They don't have any.
The one they do have , is contradicted by what follows later
Neither are presented as havinh no superior except God

So Lucifer and Michael are imo above them

Matt the Manly
05-11-2014, 03:38 AM
Also, if we're going to get technical about this stuff, which we apparently are, things like having to force a journey to the world tree fucked Lucifer up pretty hard. There were things not the Presence or of it that hurt the guy. Which, considering Fenris himself had to take hilariously ornate precautions to avoid getting done up similarly, that's obviously not an insignificant thing. It is of course nebulous, and thereby not normally worth mentioning, but if you're going to invoke nebulous things, while also saying Lucifer only had Presence affiliated troubles, well..

It was noted by Noema that Lucifer is weaker since God left
And really....considering that after the journey, after The Fight with Michael...he still helped shape Elaines creation, I don't see how its a particularly low showing

Matt the Manly
05-11-2014, 03:40 AM
I'll take your word for it - I don't claim a high expertise on Lucifer, but I always interpreted his handling of the creation power as being a specific thing for him.

I still haven't seen much that would put him on PR Beyonder's level.

The fact that MM manipulated Beyonders energies, the fact that Beyonder reacted at all to MMs attack(Koff..Koff) and the fact that Lucifer and Michael can keep firing off creation wiping blasts/reforming even in crap conditions gives them the edge IMO

Pendaran
05-11-2014, 03:44 AM
It was noted by Noema that Lucifer is weaker since God left
And really....considering that after the journey, after The Fight with Michael...he still helped shape Elaines creation, I don't see how its a particularly low showing

You invoked stuff from that whole sequence when talking about him, and Lucifer for his part noted on several occasions God leaving was irrelevant to him/his creation. You wanted to say Lucifer was never hurt/threatened by things not of the Presence. That is simply not the case. There are a few other times besides. You are again making up arguments to have with yourself. It's not a low, or high showing. It's a showing. Of Lucifer being affected by something of substance, if nebulous substance, that has nothing to do with the Presence.

It certainly fits just fine with the Living Tribunal having some nebulous showings where he is threatened by things, as far as your odd standard of having tried to invoke that as meaning anything.

Let me put that another way:

1) You made a claim about things being able to affect/hurt Lucifer that does not match the comics.

2) You then used that claim to say it shows him being superior to the Tribunal, because he was affected by various things not connected to the one above all

It then turned out.. these were based on nebulous showings of no meaning, and that Lucifer has those too.

Making this entire line of argument, without meaning or substance.

Pendaran
05-11-2014, 03:59 AM
Granted but it was one of the few similar instances I could think of Another being Spectres rampage in DoV and PC Fate affecting two worlds

Again, these are not the same either. The DoV rampage did what it did ultimately because the Spectre over time filled out what amounted to a checklist of "kill this many specific magic dudes in a relatively short enough time period, and you fuck the current age of magic."

PC Kent did what he did because the weirdo stupid aliens had already brought the worlds practically together as is, and for Kent's part, he only shook those worlds. That is nothing remotely like overwriting an entire universe with a thought, at all.


No Warlock had already been shrugged off when Eternity/Infinty joined the battle Warlock was not in contact when Eternity/Infinity started warping reality around Magus , it is specifically stated by Thanos that the reason Magus lost was because he didnt have the Reality Gem which the Universal entities took advantage of to beat him/ Warlock to take the power/ Eternity to make the ruling via LTs power


Just first off before we go onwards, as this is getting to be a thing. Eternity and Infinity had melded together for that. A composite being of the two is something new, and when the gauntlet was otherwise treating universal scale things as both casual and side effects, using the bold font does not change that you're basically deciding what the power level of a one off composite was that we never see before or since.


Eternity was super grateful to Adam at the end of it all so I dunno why he wouldn't let him use it to fix things once and for all before shutting it down

His gratitude was "fuck you, stay in a coma", and he specifically said "also, no more gauntlet" fitting in with his general hate of that thing.


What I am saying is that the incomplete Gauntlet is not universal given it was beaten by universal entities, the reason being specifically given as because of it being incomplete

It was beaten by a one off melded composite of universal beings, as aided by a guy who could contest said gauntlet. It did universal things casually from a thought, or as mere collateral damage.


The Gauntlet doing universal stuff casually doesnt mean it is multiversal

A man lifts ten tons with his pinky finger. I guess he can only lift ten tons.


like Lucifer doing multiversal stuff casually doesn't mean he is omniversal

This is getting into meaningless terms now.


so unless Eternity

Eternity is normally melded together with Infinity?


Yes by presentation, Lucifer is the Lord of a Multiverse who is more powerful than anyone save God.

Or a trip to the world tree. Or Kuanyin's unmaking bell such that he only got around it by preventing it from activating. He could only waste those dream things by killing the dreamers that created them. The bizarre standard you are applying to the Tribunal to make an argument out of goes both ways.

Matt the Manly
05-11-2014, 04:02 AM
You invoked stuff from that whole sequence when talking about him, and Lucifer for his part noted on several occasions God leaving was irrelevant to him/his creation. You wanted to say Lucifer was never hurt/threatened by things not of the Presence. That is simply not the case. There are a few other times besides. You are again making up arguments to have with yourself. It's not a low, or high showing. It's a showing. Of Lucifer being affected by something of substance, if nebulous substance, that has nothing to do with the Presence.

It certainly fits just fine with the Living Tribunal having some nebulous showings where he is threatened by things, as far as your odd standard of having tried to invoke that as meaning anything.

Let me put that another way:

1) You made a claim about things being able to affect/hurt Lucifer that does not match the comics.

2) You then used that claim to say it shows him being superior to the Tribunal, because he was affected by various things not connected to the one above all

It then turned out.. these were based on nebulous showings of no meaning, and that Lucifer has those too.

Making this entire line of argument, without meaning or substance.

Its not the same thing at all given Lucifers showing is something that happened off panel( hey who knows maybe Michael was mind controlled this time round, attacking him?) And his condition Could have been the result of any odd number of reasons , maybe his own power was turned on him again

LT for eg in LPSZ straight up attacks Galactus/ fails to do anything then is blasted away by a gun that fails to do anything to Galactus

Thats something quite clear cut and not nebulous at all

And in any case Lucifer, just to repeat is shaping universes right after said Journey, which brings into question how hurt he actually was when other people note his power fading away since Yahweh left creation

And just to repeat, scans of LT doing multiversal stuff to justify his power?

Pendaran
05-11-2014, 04:05 AM
I am straight up quoting from the issue now
"For reality is playing diabolical tricks on you now , would be conqueror!"
Magus: " Having trouble...focussing my cosmic perceptions"
Eternity reaches out. Massive explosion


......

No.

Warlock and Magus contest the Gauntlet for a several pages. The fight starts ending reality. After a while Warlock is all "oh snap, I'm going to lose!" Then a voice from Warlock's chest is all "nope!" Then an explosion knocks them both back a bit. Then Magus says "wtf, I'm having trouble figuring out what is this shit."

Then Warlock starts ranting as he shakes and energy bleeds out his eyes. Then Eternity/Infinity yo kool aid out of Warlock's chest. The composite has a hand out. Warlock is right by the Magus again, one of his hands is reaching to the Gauntlet. Then we cut back to Galactus' ship where everrrrone talks about how they are all going to die and can't outrun the reality collapse about to catch up with them. The explosion that then happens is that. THen, despite everything exploding, they open their eyes to find everything is all cool again.

What you are saying is not what happened.

Pendaran
05-11-2014, 04:08 AM
I'm trying to figure out how to post this without going over scan limits by a ridiculous pile, but the thing you said is not what happened.

Matt the Manly
05-11-2014, 04:16 AM
Again, these are not the same either. The DoV rampage did what it did ultimately because the Spectre over time filled out what amounted to a checklist of "kill this many specific magic dudes in a relatively short enough time period, and you fuck the current age of magic."

PC Kent did what he did because the weirdo stupid aliens had already brought the worlds practically together as is, and for Kent's part, he only shook those worlds. That is nothing remotely like overwriting an entire universe with a thought, at all.



Just first off before we go onwards, as this is getting to be a thing. Eternity and Infinity had melded together for that. A composite being of the two is something new, and when the gauntlet was otherwise treating universal scale things as both casual and side effects, using the bold font does not change that you're basically deciding what the power level of a one off composite was that we never see before or since.
Oh when Eternity in his goodbye speech specifically referenced himself as a "universe" and we have statements like Eternity and infinity being 2 sides of the same coin , I really don't see how there can be any doubt over the level of the being



His gratitude was "fuck you, stay in a coma", and he specifically said "also, no more gauntlet" fitting in with his general hate of that thing.
His gratitude was not to attack Adam for the way he treated him earlier. And he did day "thanks" according to the I Watch and anyone except you




was beaten by a one off melded composite of universal beings, as aided by a guy who could contest said gauntlet. It did universal things casually from a thought, or as mere collateral damage.
It was also beaten by a dude and the other side of the same coin who refers to himself as universal





man lifts ten tons with his pinky finger. I guess he can only lift ten tons.
If the same guy with a broken finger cant lift 10 then yes, he can max out at 10

And no he can lift 10 tons doesn't mean he can lift 100




Eternity is normally melded together with Infinity?
Two sides of the same coin, so yes . I guess they just don't show it all the time




Or a trip to the world tree
After which he shaped a universe
.
Or Kuanyin's unmaking bell such that he only got around it by preventing it from activating. He could only waste those dream things by killing the dreamers that created them. The bizarre standard you are applying to the Tribunal to make an argument out of goes both ways.
Do you honestly feel Lucifer was threatened by anything at all in Nirvana

And Lucifer couldn't kill them, sure , he only beat them, thus preserving his unbeaten record vs anyone short of God/ Michael

While LT , not so much

Pendaran
05-11-2014, 04:16 AM
Okay, best I can do:

Warlock rantening:

http://s30.postimg.org/vmoaqndzl/war.png

I'm skipping the energy explosion from his chest.

This happens next, after that:

http://s17.postimg.org/r84w4u8gv/war2.png

Note Warlock is now going for the Gauntlet again.

Now we, on the next page, /completely cut away from the fight and however it goes, unless there is a tie in issue I missed that showed it/.

http://s29.postimg.org/s6lkfnkvb/war3.png

Note them talking about how they can't outrun "the blast"

And then, the blast, they can't outrun, explodes them on the next page!

http://s3.postimg.org/7hb3ldrer/war4.png

If you're wondering why Fantastic Four was not then cancelled, Warlock made it all better on the next page.

Pendaran
05-11-2014, 04:22 AM
Oh when Eternity in his goodbye speech specifically referenced himself as a "universe" and we have statements like Eternity and infinity being 2 sides of the same coin , I really don't see how there can be any doubt over the level of the being

Was that Eternity, or Eternity melded with Infinity again. In all the times before and since they are shown not as that, even amidst high end cosmic stuff, is that just because they're being shy?


It was also beaten by a dude and the other side of the same coin who refers to himself as universal


To be clear, do you basically have no actual response to explaining why it did universal scale effects casually while being "only universal"?

If you do, let me ask you directly.

Can you explain how something that is "only universal" did things like rewrite a universe with a thought, or as a mere side effect of being fought over, start collapsing universal reality. That it did these things while outside the universe it was affecting.

These are direct questions.


If the same guy with a broken finger cant lift 10 then yes, he can max out at 10

And no he can lift 10 tons doesn't mean he can lift 100

Your reply in no way interacts with what was said to you. Or if it does, does so badly.

You are claiming that the incomplete gauntlet was limited to "universal". When asked how that can be when screwing with a universe was shown to be something it could do with minimal effort, while outside that universe, you can explain that how?

Pendaran
05-11-2014, 04:24 AM
Do you honestly feel Lucifer was threatened by anything at all in Nirvana

He acted to pre empt the bell from mucking with him. If he could have just bounced it off his face, why did he bother. He even makes specific reference to responding to a warning.

Pendaran
05-11-2014, 04:25 AM
And Lucifer couldn't kill them, sure , he only beat them, thus preserving his unbeaten record vs anyone short of God/ Michael

The trip to the world tree beat the shit out of him.

Matt the Manly
05-11-2014, 04:26 AM
......

No.

Warlock and Magus contest the Gauntlet for a several pages. The fight starts ending reality. After a while Warlock is all "oh snap, I'm going to lose!" Then a voice from Warlock's chest is all "nope!" Then an explosion knocks them both back a bit. Then Magus says "wtf, I'm having trouble figuring out what is this shit."

Then Warlock starts ranting as he shakes and energy bleeds out his eyes. Then Eternity/Infinity yo kool aid out of Warlock's chest. The composite has a hand out. Warlock is right by the Magus again, one of his hands is reaching to the Gauntlet. Then we cut back to Galactus' ship where everrrrone talks about how they are all going to die and can't outrun the reality collapse about to catch up with them. The explosion that then happens is that. THen, despite everything exploding, they open their eyes to find everything is all cool again.

What you are saying is not what happened.

What happened is exactly as you put it. Its in the interpretation that I find fault

Either you are saying Adam now did Surferesque grab on the gem when unlike Thanos, Magus has the other 5 gems up amd running tokeep him relatively omnipotent, with Warlock no longer sharing power

So basically the other gems stopped working for that to happen making it PIS
Or Eternity/Infinity delivered a blast which put down Magus to enable Warlock to take the gauntlet, which is how I interpret the scene. And how it fits in with Thanos noting how magus wasn't invulnerable , justifyinh a cosmic taking him out

Matt the Manly
05-11-2014, 04:33 AM
Was that Eternity, or Eternity melded with Infinity again. In all the times before and since they are shown not as that, even amidst high end cosmic stuff, is that just because they're being shy?



To be clear, do you basically have no actual response to explaining why it did universal scale effects casually while being "only universal"?

If you do, let me ask you directly.

Can you explain how something that is "only universal" did things like rewrite a universe with a thought, or as a mere side effect of being fought over, start collapsing universal reality. That it did these things while outside the universe it was affecting.

These are direct questions.



Your reply in no way interacts with what was said to you. Or if it does, does so badly.

You are claiming that the incomplete gauntlet was limited to "universal". When asked how that can be when screwing with a universe was shown to be something it could do with minimal effort, while outside that universe, you can explain that how?

Can you explain to me how a multiversal entity couldn't tackle reality warping from a guy who peaks out at universal/ the other side of thr same coin?

I said the Gauntlet when incomplete is roughly around universal level given all it does is affwct a universe and lose to the embodiment of the universe

Reality was collapsing because they didnt have control over the Reality gem as noted by Strange
Also I dont remember reality collapsing outside one universe

Matt the Manly
05-11-2014, 04:46 AM
Regarding Nirvana, and the Wolf under the Tree, in one case you are talking about an arc where Lucifers whole demeanour is super casual about the prospect of his impending death. And again Fenris thougt he could take out super weakened Lucifer, how did that turn out?

These "what if" scenarios are really only that and just emphasises my point about his unbeaten record
In the second case he proceeded to shape a universe right after, as you keep ignoring that

Again this boils down to you arguing The Incomplete Gauntlet was doing dtuff super casually , a line of argument that can be applied to Sentry for eg.
Clearly when Sentry holding back can rekease MICROverse level blasts, he is above Odin

And those kind of arguments where LT, IG dont have anything beyond doing universal stuff casually to put them on Lucifers level

Again still waiting for such feats for these guys

Pendaran
05-11-2014, 04:56 AM
What happened is exactly as you put it. Its in the interpretation that I find fault

Either you are saying Adam now did Surferesque grab on the gem when unlike Thanos, Magus has the other 5 gems up amd running tokeep him relatively omnipotent, with Warlock no longer sharing power

So basically the other gems stopped working for that to happen making it PIS
Or Eternity/Infinity delivered a blast which put down Magus to enable Warlock to take the gauntlet, which is how I interpret the scene. And how it fits in with Thanos noting how magus wasn't invulnerable , justifyinh a cosmic taking him out

.... nothing you are saying has anything to do with the scans of the comic I have shown. The blast happens the page after Galactus and Nova are talking about how they can't outrun the blast effect of reality collapsing. The last we see of the Magus, he now has to face the Eternity/Infinity composite and Warlock, who is going for him again. You are basically saying "despite how that last looked and it then being offscreen and we cut away to something else completely, I will now say how everything happened. Also that blast was totally not the blast being noted by everyone else the page before it, it was Eternity/Infinity zapping the Magus. Even though that was not what was shown."

Neverminding that you've now downgraded to "a cosmic could take him out". He took out Galactus like he was nothing, if we're going to start talking about "cosmics".

Pendaran
05-11-2014, 04:58 AM
Can you explain to me how a multiversal entity couldn't tackle reality warping from a guy who peaks out at universal/ the other side of thr same coin?

I said the Gauntlet when incomplete is roughly around universal level given all it does is affwct a universe and lose to the embodiment of the universe

Reality was collapsing because they didnt have control over the Reality gem as noted by Strange
Also I dont remember reality collapsing outside one universe


... seriously, you're going to do the "I'm not going to answer your questions, you have to answer mine"?

Once again, direct question.

The incomplete gauntlet busts out universal shenanigans onto a universe, as casual nothing effort, while outside that universe. How do you explain that as the working of something "limited to universal scale"?


I said the Gauntlet when incomplete is roughly around universal level given all it does is affwct a universe and lose to the embodiment of the universe

Yes, I know that you are ignoring that when it does universal level things, it does so casually, while outside that universe. How is it not thereby beyond the scale of a universe?


lose to the embodiment of the universe

And Adam Warlock, and being melded with Infinity.

Pendaran
05-11-2014, 05:03 AM
Regarding Nirvana, and the Wolf under the Tree, in one case you are talking about an arc where Lucifers whole demeanour is super casual about the prospect of his impending death. And again Fenris thougt he could take out super weakened Lucifer, how did that turn out?

Yes, or no, did travelling to the world tree massively screw up Lucifer, such that he was limp and motionless on the ground as the immediate result? If yes, how do your statements about nothing else messing with him make sense? How is talking about Fenris not a complete non sequitur? How does "and then he shaped a universe" make this not happen as far as making any kind of sense as a reply?

This is Lucifer after travelling to the world tree:

http://s9.postimg.org/6m7dlei4f/tree.png

Do you need the several more pages of him being outright unconscious from this?

If this happened, can you explain your claims about nothing not Presence related having effed with him? His "unbeaten" record?


In the second case he proceeded to shape a universe right after, as you keep ignoring that

I'm not ignoring it, I'm pointing out you saying it makes no sense whatsoever as far as trying to say "Lucifer has an unbeaten record/Lucifer has only ever been messed with by things of or tied to the Presence". That is not a reply to what I am saying. It has nothing to do with it. In any way.

You claimed Lucifer has not been screwed with in a certain way, or threatened by certain things. Twice, he has. You seem to have no response to this.

Pendaran
05-11-2014, 05:06 AM
Regarding Nirvana, and the Wolf under the Tree, in one case you are talking about an arc where Lucifers whole demeanour is super casual about the prospect of his impending death.

If Lucifer felt the bell was no threat to him, why did he take action to stop it from being used on him? Why did he make reference to the warning working for him? Why was that his reply to it being noted that he was otherwise almost killed?

http://s29.postimg.org/w6ulkxjl3/bell.png

This is the very comic that confirms Lucifer made a multiverse, so it's not like he's being lowballed by the writer in this one. Hell, he basically reality warps a guy out of being on the very page, it's not like he's functioning at low ebb. The writing is making clear he had to pre empt a threat. If he had to act to pre empt a threat, it means he was threatened.

Pendaran
05-11-2014, 05:11 AM
Two sides of the same coin, so yes . I guess they just don't show it all the time

So basically even though they only showed it there as far as anything you can show, every other time they are in fact always merged together. Not even one other showing where they're combined? You're basically saying that when Galactus or whoever gets a one off moment as one of the faces of the Living Tribunal, they always have the power of the Living Tribunal and it just never otherwise comes up.

Kaid1015
05-11-2014, 07:07 AM
Perhaps of talking about Matt's lowballing of the IG, we could discuss Beyonder's feats and how they compare to Lucifer' and Michaels. I think Beyonder's more powerful because he created a multiverse infinite times the size of the Marvel multiverse, whereas Lucifer and Michael can only make mere multiverses.

Pendaran
05-11-2014, 07:12 AM
Perhaps of talking about Matt's lowballing of the IG, we could discuss Beyonder's feats and how they compare to Lucifer' and Michaels. I think Beyonder's more powerful because he created a multiverse infinite times the size of the Marvel multiverse, whereas Lucifer and Michael can only make mere multiverses.

Honestly, once you crapped out a multiverse, you crapped out a multiverse. At that point you're basically just arguing what infinity is bigger than infinity, and part of why "omnipotence vs omnipotence" threads are kind of a drag sometimes.

I don't really want to otherwise want to delve into it, I'm just saying, I'm sure there are better things to do feat comparison on than that part.

edit: with that said, if the Beyonder actually crapped out a multiverse from pure nothing, that is somewhat better than Lucifer using the baseline of the energy kersplosion to make one.

big_adventure
05-11-2014, 08:09 AM
Honestly, once you crapped out a multiverse, you crapped out a multiverse. At that point you're basically just arguing what infinity is bigger than infinity, and part of why "omnipotence vs omnipotence" threads are kind of a drag sometimes.

I don't really want to otherwise want to delve into it, I'm just saying, I'm sure there are better things to do feat comparison on than that part.

edit: with that said, if the Beyonder actually crapped out a multiverse from pure nothing, that is somewhat better than Lucifer using the baseline of the energy kersplosion to make one.

Well, there are two things here:

1. Beyonder effectively is a multiverse to which all of the Marvel Multiverse is "like a drop of water to an ocean" or some such. That's explicitly stated. And basically, backed up by multiverse-level dudes crapping trousers at the thought of dealing with the guy.

2. When MM blasts Beyonder's birthing machine and spits his essence through a portal back to beyond, it forms a "-verse" of some kind.

The difficulty induced by the retcons is that we never really get a confirmation of what all this works out to.

I don't recall him ever specifically consciously making a different multiverse.

His best combatty feats involve:

1. Killing Death, meaning nothing could ever die. Then bringing Death back, so things could die again, once he was convinced that this was a stupid idea.

2. "kaff-kaff"-ing a blast from PR Molecule Man "that would have wasted a couple of billion dimensions."

3. Scaring all of the universal and multiversal cosmics to the extent that they have to go begging PR Molecule Man for help - MM being the second strongest being in existence.

4. Casually bitchslapping all of the Celestials at once, to show off for a girl. And commenting that he was doing it for that reason - that he could have just wished them out of existence.

Stuff like that. He's written and omnipotent, he's called omnipotent, but it's really hard to show "omnipotence."

Pendaran
05-11-2014, 12:18 PM
I'm referring to that if the Beyonder for instance went "boom! multiverse!" and then one happened from nothing. That would be more impressive than what Lucifer did.

Captain Morgan
05-11-2014, 12:34 PM
I'm referring to that if the Beyonder for instance went "boom! multiverse!" and then one happened from nothing. That would be more impressive than what Lucifer did.

Being completely fair, Lucifer not being able to create a multiverse out of nothing seems to be more of a function of lacking the specific ability rather than raw power. Michael's entire shtick was that he alone had the power of true creation. While Lucifer was a peer with Michael in a fight, he was not designed to be build matter from nothing, but rather will existing reality to Yahweh's plan.

I don't really know about the Beyonder to comment here otherwise.

Pendaran
05-11-2014, 01:46 PM
Being completely fair, Lucifer not being able to create a multiverse out of nothing seems to be more of a function of lacking the specific ability rather than raw power. Michael's entire shtick was that he alone had the power of true creation. While Lucifer was a peer with Michael in a fight, he was not designed to be build matter from nothing, but rather will existing reality to Yahweh's plan.

I don't really know about the Beyonder to comment here otherwise.

That's fair, it's still just somewhat more impressive to just pull it out of one's butt with a thought, as it were. If indeed that happened. If some kind of machine was involved.. ehh.

Abishai100
02-02-2015, 12:49 PM
Steam



Pre Retcon Beyonder was a character with powers almost unchecked. He seemed to be a complete non-human immortal with the power to control Death. He was only significantly challenged by Pre Retcon Molecule Man who had the power of altering the fabric of the universe and hence destabilizing Beyonder's focus.

I would say that Lucifer Morningstar and Michael Demiurgos could hypothetically stand against Pre Retcon Beyonder by taking turns using their unique powers against him. Maybe Michael could wield his sword, while Lucifer could wield his, confusing Beyonder.


Remember that in the storyboards, Beyonder gets his amazing powers from the Terrigen Mist, so conceiving that Lucifer/Michael could undo the mental source of his confidence is not crazy.




:eek:

16942



:eek:

Sharpandpointies
02-02-2015, 12:53 PM
Pre Retcon Beyonder was a character with powers almost unchecked. He seemed to be a complete non-human immortal with the power to control Death. He was only significantly challenged by Pre Retcon Molecule Man who had the power of altering the fabric of the universe and hence destabilizing Beyonder's focus.

And who, once Beyonder got serious, ended up getting stomped.


Remember that in the storyboards, Beyonder gets his amazing powers from the Terrigen Mist, so conceiving that Lucifer/Michael could undo the mental source of his confidence is not crazy.

This is PRE-retcon Beyonder. Terrigen Mist has nothing to do with the character.

T51R
02-02-2015, 08:49 PM
Steam




16942



:eek:

WHAT IF...Lucifer and Michael pulled an Itagaki; Michael wields his sword, and Lucifer wields both Michael and his sword using DRESS...aka THE HUMAN NUNCHAKU...

The very sight of it ought to cause Beyonder so much brain damage he commits SEPPUKU...:p

Ite
02-03-2015, 02:45 AM
Beyonder wins. There has never been a more powerful character than him in any comic.

Sharpandpointies
02-03-2015, 05:11 AM
WHAT IF...Lucifer and Michael pulled an Itagaki; Michael wields his sword, and Lucifer wields both Michael and his sword using DRESS...aka THE HUMAN NUNCHAKU...

The very sight of it ought to cause Beyonder so much brain damage he commits SEPPUKU...:p

Pre-Retcon Beyonder's operates at a level we would already consider to be 'so much brain damage'. And he keeps going despite that.

Cody
02-04-2015, 07:08 AM
Beyonder wins. There has never been a more powerful character than him in any comic.

I'd say TOAA is above him merely due to him most likely being the embodiment of the Marvel writing team. Thus making him the reason Beyonder was retconned in the first place.

I'd put the Presence on the same level as PR Beyonder imo.

(Nice thread necro Ite)

The Transient Guest
02-05-2015, 04:58 AM
Being completely fair, Lucifer not being able to create a multiverse out of nothing seems to be more of a function of lacking the specific ability rather than raw power. Michael's entire shtick was that he alone had the power of true creation. While Lucifer was a peer with Michael in a fight, he was not designed to be build matter from nothing, but rather will existing reality to Yahweh's plan.

I don't really know about the Beyonder to comment here otherwise.

Funny, never realized that Lucy has Mad Jim Jaspers's weakness to needing clay to sculpt, as it were. Neat.

Captain Morgan
02-05-2015, 07:03 AM
Funny, never realized that Lucy has Mad Jim Jaspers's weakness to needing clay to sculpt, as it were. Neat.

It's not like he's powerless in the void or anything. It's just that raw creation was a specific thing that the Presence made Michael for.

The Transient Guest
02-06-2015, 02:32 AM
It was more just a slight personal realization that the feat has always been touted as "Lucy willed the Demiurgic power from Micheals explosion into a new Creation." And I never really realized that the former required the latter to go down. So what else has Lucy willed into, out of, and altered the universe?

Slade1
02-06-2015, 06:19 AM
It was more just a slight personal realization that the feat has always been touted as "Lucy willed the Demiurgic power from Micheals explosion into a new Creation." And I never really realized that the former required the latter to go down. So what else has Lucy willed into, out of, and altered the universe?

I've never seen anyone claim that Lucifer willed out the Demiurgic from Michael. I thought that was common knowledge.