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Blackid
05-04-2014, 09:01 PM
Who's got the best feats? would it be a stomp or a good battle?

Matt the Manly
05-04-2014, 10:47 PM
David Cain in h2h at his peak is a match for Batman

Frank Castle, absolutely is not a match for Cap

Accuracy wise, Old Cain is still good enough to beat Deadshot in a shootout. Frank I dont believe is as good as Deadshot though its pretty close

Cain's sneaking feats are among the very best in comics. if Cain had prep this would be a stomp

Likewise, Cain should win handily in a straight up h2h fight and straight up shootout

If Frank brings grenades and stuff he might win

Jonathan
05-04-2014, 10:57 PM
David Cain in h2h at his peak is a match for Batman

Frank Castle, absolutely is not a match for Cap

Accuracy wise, Old Cain is still good enough to beat Deadshot in a shootout. Frank I dont believe is as good as Deadshot though its pretty close

Cain's sneaking feats are among the very best in comics. if Cain had prep this would be a stomp

Likewise, Cain should win handily in a straight up h2h fight and straight up shootout

If Frank brings grenades and stuff he might win

Well, in fairness, Frank does have a feat of successfully, and fairly effortlessly, blocking Cap's tossed shield with an M16.

Numbuh24insane
05-04-2014, 11:34 PM
David Cain in h2h at his peak is a match for Batman

Frank Castle, absolutely is not a match for Cap

Accuracy wise, Old Cain is still good enough to beat Deadshot in a shootout. Frank I dont believe is as good as Deadshot though its pretty close

Cain's sneaking feats are among the very best in comics. if Cain had prep this would be a stomp

Likewise, Cain should win handily in a straight up h2h fight and straight up shootout

If Frank brings grenades and stuff he might win

Is beating Deadshot in a shoot out PIS? Because Deadshot has had some amazing feats with aim, and shooting.

FrenchGemini
05-05-2014, 12:17 AM
Don't forget that Cain is at least as agile as Post-Crisis Nightwing on top of what has been already said. Cain got to the Batcave via acrobatics to plant fake evidence against Bruce, and Dick had some trouble replicating it. We are talking about one of the best human acrobats in the DCU, people.

MidTierHero
05-05-2014, 05:20 AM
Is beating Deadshot in a shoot out PIS? Because Deadshot has had some amazing feats with aim, and shooting.

It is. Deadshot was completely out of character in that story, to the point of being unrecognizable, and his skills weren't presented as they usually are. Basically the author threw him under tge bus to build up Cain. By average showings Deadshot is a better marksman.

Matt the Manly
05-05-2014, 06:23 AM
It is. Deadshot was completely out of character in that story, to the point of being unrecognizable, and his skills weren't presented as they usually are. Basically the author threw him under tge bus to build up Cain. By average showings Deadshot is a better marksman.

Define "Average showings" for a guy who has 50 appearances Max and is presented as "The World's Greatest Assassin".

While I agree David Cain was a Gary Sue of a character and a poor man's Deathstroke, he was what he was.

Which is Cassandra Cains daddy. The Worlds Greatest Assasin. Responsible for partly training Batman, Shiva, Cass etc. Inventor of the body reading technique.Capable of giving Batman a fight even when he is well past it. Capable of performing acrobatics that are difficult for Nightwing to pull off. And all that.

Deadshot for all his fame has never nearly been presented as such a guy in said guys few appearances.

Hence, valid feat

Numbuh24insane
05-05-2014, 12:11 PM
Define "Average showings" for a guy who has 50 appearances Max and is presented as "The World's Greatest Assassin".

While I agree David Cain was a Gary Sue of a character and a poor man's Deathstroke, he was what he was.

Which is Cassandra Cains daddy. The Worlds Greatest Assasin. Responsible for partly training Batman, Shiva, Cass etc. Inventor of the body reading technique.Capable of giving Batman a fight even when he is well past it. Capable of performing acrobatics that are difficult for Nightwing to pull off. And all that.

Deadshot for all his fame has never nearly been presented as such a guy in said guys few appearances.

Hence, valid feat

You do realize that acrobatics, training people that DON'T use guns, and being Cassandra Cains father has nothing to do with a shoot out or shoot out feats.

Deadshot is a man who can kill twelve people with a single bullet by ricochet.

Matt the Manly
05-05-2014, 12:27 PM
You do realize that acrobatics, training people that DON'T use guns, and being Cassandra Cains father has nothing to do with a shoot out or shoot out feats.

Deadshot is a man who can kill twelve people with a single bullet by ricochet.

No but Having checked his no of appearances (he has exactly 50 appearances), and what else he has done in these appearances to back up his claim of being the worlds greatest assasin, I dont see how him shooting Floyd is PIS

For eg, he hardly has feats for benching a 1000 pounds but the guy goes toe to toe with Batman at his peak and even gives him a fight when he is older and more weakened

Thats really all we have to judge him by. His feats against other people

Given his presentation, and his feats, I dont know how that showing vs Floyd is PIS unless his showings vs Batman are also PIS and really almost everything else he has done, such as Nightwing level acrobatics( what has he done to put him on Nightwings level? Has he fought people while balancing his body weight on one hand, on a moving bike, thrown himself off skyscrapers and taken out two different people shooting him mid air at the same time, etc?)


Dude has 50 appearances and is presented as the worlds greatest assasin. and this isnt even something like his speed /on what level has he shown feats outside fights etc

Its just a guy presented as the worlds greatest assasin outshooting another guy not presented as such, among his other feats such as H2H combat ability on Batmans level/ Nightwing level acrobatics / body reading/ nerve strikes etc , to back up said claim in all of 50 appearances

I dont really see what all the fuss is about

The Chou Lives
05-05-2014, 01:01 PM
Who's got the best feats? would it be a stomp or a good battle?

Depends on battle field and situation really.

But I will aid that Cain is extremely, extremely beasty.

Numbuh24insane
05-05-2014, 01:15 PM
I dont really see what all the fuss is about

The fuss is that Floyd wasn't himself in the comic, that if this was Deadshot as normally presented he would have easily out shot Cain.

Matt the Manly
05-05-2014, 05:29 PM
The fuss is that Floyd wasn't himself in the comic, that if this was Deadshot as normally presented he would have easily out shot Cain.

What do you feel was wrong with Deadshots presentation in the comic

The Chou Lives
05-05-2014, 06:31 PM
What do you feel was wrong with Deadshots presentation in the comic

He gloated. Big time. And then Cian shot him inches away from heart, telling his outfit was a big "Shoot me here." deal.

Numbuh24insane
05-05-2014, 06:35 PM
He gloated. Big time. And then Cian shot him inches away from heart, telling his outfit was a big "Shoot me here." deal.

Deadshot also missed two feet away for no reason.

Zainu
05-06-2014, 12:33 AM
Well, Cassandra is known for dodging bullets at practically point-blank, so maybe her dad is the same...?

Slade1
05-08-2014, 06:48 AM
Well, Cassandra is known for dodging bullets at practically point-blank, so maybe her dad is the same...?

Cain isn't a bullet timer to the best of my knowledge.

Jmacq1
05-08-2014, 07:13 AM
As I recall, it wasn't exactly a "shootout" with Deadshot. Deadshot was also portrayed in "supreme death wish" mode.

Though as I also recall, Cain was handcuffed at the time. Regardless, Deadshot's dodging feats aren't exactly on par with his shooting feats, and it's the former that were more relevant in the situation people are discussing.

Oh, and it was mentioned in the same story that Cain was also one of the guys that helped teach Deadshot how to shoot...so yeah, Cain's marksmanship is up there, though I would not personally rank it higher than Deadshot's in terms of overall accuracy.

Cain's got some other feats that are pretty beastly even beyond those mentioned, though. Wiping out a SEAL team in 30 seconds while rip-roaring drunk springs to mind, also the whole "kill a guy with his own gun while strapped down to a hospital bed" bit.

Both have superb prep feats, despite Cain's limited appearances.

Cain is definitely superior hand-to-hand. Marksmanship I would at least rate as "equal." It's probably going to boil down to who gets the drop on who. If it's a "standard rules" sort of scenario, I give the nod to Cain on account of superior overall agility.

Matt the Manly
05-10-2014, 02:33 AM
He gloated. Big time. And then Cian shot him inches away from heart, telling his outfit was a big "Shoot me here." deal.

Yeah I know that just , I don't see how his gloating particularly affected his shooting, especially given he stopped it once the real shootout commenced

Matt the Manly
05-10-2014, 02:36 AM
Deadshot also missed two feet away for no reason.

"Missed"?
More like Cain dodging and shooting
Batman has dodged Lawton from similar range too

big_adventure
05-10-2014, 04:57 AM
To take this a step further, Cain was in HORRIBLE shape when this even happened - he's been beaten, injured, handcuffed, exhausted - and he still proceeded to aimdodge Deadshot from 2 feet away. It's a pretty excellent feat by a guy who is better than Batman at just about everything - it works to qualify his level there, really.

Deadshot is still likely a better pure shot - it's his whole schtick - but it doesn't stop him from getting aimdodged by CBPHers, and Cain is a small bit above that level, really.

MidTierHero
05-10-2014, 11:54 AM
To take this a step further, Cain was in HORRIBLE shape when this even happened - he's been beaten, injured, handcuffed, exhausted - and he still proceeded to aimdodge Deadshot from 2 feet away. It's a pretty excellent feat by a guy who is better than Batman at just about everything - it works to qualify his level there, really.

Deadshot is still likely a better pure shot - it's his whole schtick - but it doesn't stop him from getting aimdodged by CBPHers, and Cain is a small bit above that level, really.

I'm sorry, did you just say Cain is better than Batman in "just about everything?" Could you clarify that please? Because I'm hard pressed to think of one thing Cain is better at outside of shooting, and that's because Batman doesn't use guns and so doesn't have notable shooting feats.

Matt the Manly
05-10-2014, 12:03 PM
For one Cain held his own , unbeaten vs Deathstroke in a comic. Though that stinks of massive PIS to me

Also I cant say if Cain at his peak was better or not, but he does have a body reading technique that Bruce doenst have so that gives him an edge I guess

MorphyVSFischer
05-10-2014, 04:07 PM
I'm sorry, did you just say Cain is better than Batman in "just about everything?" Could you clarify that please? Because I'm hard pressed to think of one thing Cain is better at outside of shooting, and that's because Batman doesn't use guns and so doesn't have notable shooting feats.

He's pretty much been shown to be better at stealth on more then instance.

The Chou Lives
05-10-2014, 04:56 PM
I'm sorry, did you just say Cain is better than Batman in "just about everything?" Could you clarify that please? Because I'm hard pressed to think of one thing Cain is better at outside of shooting, and that's because Batman doesn't use guns and so doesn't have notable shooting feats.

Cain stealthed into the Bat Cave and made out fake evidence to make Bruce look guilty. And well that is great agility and stealth.

MidTierHero
05-10-2014, 05:18 PM
He's pretty much been shown to be better at stealth on more then instance.

Doubtful. Please provide evidence. And no, sneaking into the Batcave ONCE does not make him Batman's superior in stealth. The Joker has also snuck into the Batcave and he's not considered stealthier than Batman.

It's possible to be good at stealth and not be as good as Batman. That's Cain.

MorphyVSFischer
05-10-2014, 06:01 PM
Doubtful. Please provide evidence. And no, sneaking into the Batcave ONCE does not make him Batman's superior in stealth. The Joker has also snuck into the Batcave and he's not considered stealthier than Batman.

It's possible to be good at stealth and not be as good as Batman. That's Cain.

Cain specifically managed to sneak past a massive amount of security systems and frame batman to the point even his closest allies doubted him and couldn't find any evidence and they basically only even found out the guy was there as a matter of luck, including a laser system Nightwing had real trouble duplicating. Joker did not do these things.
But also Cain specifically managed to pull of the vanish trick Batman does on Gordon with Batman and Nightwing standing right there looking at the dude.
Also there's his feat of escaping a maximum security cell specifically covered in camera's, being watched 24/7 over every inch, and was gone for 24 hours before anyone noticed.

big_adventure
05-11-2014, 01:17 AM
Yes, I did say that - Cain is better at stealth, better at HtH, faster, and obviously a better shooter. Batman is (much) smarter and a better detective - but that's not helping in a fight.

MidTierHero
05-11-2014, 11:46 AM
Yes, I did say that - Cain is better at stealth, better at HtH, faster, and obviously a better shooter. Batman is (much) smarter and a better detective - but that's not helping in a fight.

Are you kidding me? Batman has beaten Cain in H2H - Cain has never beaten Batman. Unless you're talking about Bruce Wayne in his pre-Batman training days. Speed and strength? Batman has far better feats.

As for stealth, nothing listed puts him above Batman - or at his level, even. Batman has tons of stealth feats that are better than these.

The one thing Cain has on Batman is shooting, and Batman doesn't use guns. In a forum fight? Batman easily wins.

MorphyVSFischer
05-12-2014, 04:18 AM
Cain has never beaten Batman. Unless you're talking about Bruce Wayne in his pre-Batman training days. Speed and strength? Batman has far better feats.

Batman has specifically beaten a drunk Cain you mean, and even then Cain has injured him in the process. When Cain isn't drunk there has never been any winner.


As for stealth, nothing listed puts him above Batman - or at his level, even. Batman has tons of stealth feats that are better than these.

No, he really doesn't, the prison feat in particular puts him a step above Batman stealthwise. Feats that are better?

big_adventure
05-12-2014, 04:41 AM
Not to mention the "sneaking into batcave and not even the entire Batfam knows that it happened" trick.

master of read
05-12-2014, 04:47 AM
speaking as someone who knows very little about david cain, i have to admit that that "sneak in the batcave" feat is pretty damn solid since, as multiple people have stated, no one in the batfamily knew about it. that puts him a bit ahead of batman since he broke bruce's security and left no evidence behind. it would be like someone hacking ironman's armor while tony was in said armor.

bat1987
05-12-2014, 06:23 AM
Batman has specifically beaten a drunk Cain you mean, and even then Cain has injured him in the process. When Cain isn't drunk there has never been any winner.


So I have volume 2 of Bruce Wayne: fugitive here. Batman and Cain fight in Oracle's clocktower and Batman beats him. There is no sign of Cain being drunk or him injuring Batman. They dodge each other for a full page and then Bruce prevails. Fell free to correct me ofc i might have missed something.

Lax
05-12-2014, 06:27 AM
Also there's his feat of escaping a maximum security cell specifically covered in camera's, being watched 24/7 over every inch, and was gone for 24 hours before anyone noticed.

It's things like this that make me roll my eyes.

MorphyVSFischer
05-12-2014, 09:30 AM
So I have volume 2 of Bruce Wayne: fugitive here. Batman and Cain fight in Oracle's clocktower and Batman beats him. There is no sign of Cain being drunk or him injuring Batman. They dodge each other for a full page and then Bruce prevails. Fell free to correct me ofc i might have missed something.

Just checked and yeah he does get Cain at that time. Doesn't mess with the tie they had in there very first encounter and I will point out this does seem like some jobbing here. Drunk Cain was able to literally draw blood and injure Bruce to the point of causing Cass serious concern I will note.

Edit: Someone pointed this out to me and after re-reading the whole chapter I will note Cain pretty specifically has made the point he wants to make and doesn't really care if a ultra pissed off Bruce beat the crap out of him so there's also that.

Daenarys Stormborn
05-12-2014, 12:16 PM
I wonder if Cain could beat punisher if the guy got a Stark suit?

MorphyVSFischer
05-12-2014, 01:59 PM
I wonder if Cain could beat punisher if the guy got a Stark suit?

I could beat Cain in a Stark suit.

big_adventure
05-12-2014, 02:17 PM
I could beat Cain in a Stark suit.

That's it, Cain eventually bleeds to death from the ricochets.

Jmacq1
05-13-2014, 07:12 AM
So I have volume 2 of Bruce Wayne: fugitive here. Batman and Cain fight in Oracle's clocktower and Batman beats him. There is no sign of Cain being drunk or him injuring Batman. They dodge each other for a full page and then Bruce prevails. Fell free to correct me ofc i might have missed something.

Only thing worth noting: The fight was actually in the Batcave, as I recall (Oracle had set up shop there temporarily).

Cain basically snuck in again...while someone was there this time.

The other bit's were correct. Batman lands one solid strike, and Cain basically concedes. There's very little indication that he couldn't have kept fighting if he wished, but as noted, his point had been made.

Daenarys Stormborn
05-13-2014, 08:21 AM
Oh. The stark suit I was referencing was Ultimate Version, which boost your physical stats (besides speed) up to superhuman levels. For example, Punisher/Widow could jump like hundred feet in one bound. So...not sure a normal human with the suit could beat this guy

Jmacq1
05-13-2014, 02:16 PM
Oh. The stark suit I was referencing was Ultimate Version, which boost your physical stats (besides speed) up to superhuman levels. For example, Punisher/Widow could jump like hundred feet in one bound. So...not sure a normal human with the suit could beat this guy

Yeah, they probably could. Especially if it's bulletproof.

Meanwhile, the Punisher in one of these suits would utterly destroy him.

MidTierHero
05-16-2014, 04:13 AM
It feels like people are bending over backwards to give Cain superiority in H2H over Batman, despite the fact that he has lost to Batman twice, has never beaten Batman, and AFAIK has never beaten any other A-list martial artist. "He was drunk, he didn't want to win, he was depressed"... etc. etc. The guy doesn't have a huge amount of appearances so you have to work with what you have. Everything else is speculation on the part of fans who WANT him to win but can't prove it. At BEST you can say he's somewhere up there with the greats though not quite on their level, but how can you take these feats and reach the conclusion that he's BETTER than Batman?

It's ridiculous. Based solely on what he's done, I would put him at Nightwing level, and that's probably being generous to him, unless someone can name a few high-end H2H fighters he's beaten.

Jmacq1
05-19-2014, 06:56 AM
It feels like people are bending over backwards to give Cain superiority in H2H over Batman, despite the fact that he has lost to Batman twice, has never beaten Batman, and AFAIK has never beaten any other A-list martial artist. "He was drunk, he didn't want to win, he was depressed"... etc. etc. The guy doesn't have a huge amount of appearances so you have to work with what you have. Everything else is speculation on the part of fans who WANT him to win but can't prove it. At BEST you can say he's somewhere up there with the greats though not quite on their level, but how can you take these feats and reach the conclusion that he's BETTER than Batman?

It's ridiculous. Based solely on what he's done, I would put him at Nightwing level, and that's probably being generous to him, unless someone can name a few high-end H2H fighters he's beaten.

It's also kind of irrelevant, given that even at "Nightwing" level he's still quite superior to Frank Castle in hand-to-hand combat.

To be clear, I don't think Cain's better than Batman, but a sober and focused Cain has been shown as being very nearly his equal (requiring an extended battle, one of which was inconclusive and another of which Batman scored one solid hit before Cain conceded (but he was far from beaten unconscious or the like), despite being 20+ years older than he is. He certainly fares better than Nightwing against Batman, whom Batman basically effortlessly dodged earlier in the same storyline.

Matt the Manly
05-19-2014, 09:33 AM
unless someone can name a few high-end H2H fighters he's beaten.
stalemated Deathstroke in an hour long battle
Stalemated Batman in a flashback
Gave Cass Cain a fight when hes clearly past his peak
Gave Batman a fight when hes clearly past his peak
Beat Deadshot in a shootout
Was part of a team that took down Shiva( note he lands the KO blow after she does things like kick away Bronze Tiger)


Some( or most) of these are PIS but hey you asked for names

MidTierHero
05-19-2014, 11:53 AM
It's also kind of irrelevant, given that even at "Nightwing" level he's still quite superior to Frank Castle in hand-to-hand combat.

Yes, we've gotten off on a tangent, because someone claimed that Cain was better at H2H than Batman.


To be clear, I don't think Cain's better than Batman Agreed. As has been explicitly shown, he'd lose.


but a sober and focused Cain has been shown as being very nearly his equal (requiring an extended battle, one of which was inconclusive and another of which Batman scored one solid hit before Cain conceded (but he was far from beaten unconscious or the like), despite being 20+ years older than he is. Yeah, I'm not really buying this mythical "Peak Cain." Not really relevant, though, since we're talking current versions of the characters.




stalemated Deathstroke in an hour long battle - PIS.

Stalemated Batman in a flashback - Has a losing record against Batman.

Gave Cass Cain a fight when hes clearly past his peak - Lost to Cass.

Gave Batman a fight when hes clearly past his peak - See above.

Beat Deadshot in a shootout - Irrelevant to a H2H fight.

Was part of a team that took down Shiva( note he lands the KO blow after she does things like kick away Bronze Tiger) - Part of a team =/= quantifiable solo feat.

Some( or most) of these are PIS but hey you asked for names - TBH, this is what I meant by "bending over backwards" to make Cain look good here. He loses to Batman in a H2H fight. Period.

Matt the Manly
05-19-2014, 12:28 PM
- PIS.
This being a peak Cain and a younger Slade who had just acquired his enhancements makes that feat fine for me


- Has a losing record against Batman.
Correction. Has a losing record vs Batman when old/drunk and/or both


- Lost to Cass.
Correction. Lost to Cass in an issue long , drawn out fight which is a whole lot better than Bruce ever managed, though well its PIS given
1. 'Cause Cassandra "bullet dance " Cain
2. Old Cain in no way is better than Bruce
3. Cass had daddy issues



- See above.
Just to be clear you are saying Cains losses are well losses, nevermind the circumstances?



- Irrelevant to a H2H fight.
Er, so a guy way past his peak dodging Floyd freakin Lawton at point blank range isnt a massively impressive reaction feat relevant to a h2h fight


-Part of team=/= quantifiable solo feat
Agreed though flashback clearly shows Cain being the one to take her out while the rest are kicked aside/ in the process of being kicked aside, the follow up to that being Cain training Shiva to make her an unbeatable fighter which she wasn't previously


- TBH, this is what I meant by "bending over backwards" to make Cain look good here. He loses to Batman in a H2H fight. Period.
Dude you asked for top fighters beaten by Cain. Im just naming names

And you are going out of your way to downplay a guy who even drunk and senile can hang with Batman, actually has at his peak at various times stalemated Slade and Bruce , been the guy to take down Shiva etc

While I don't think there's anything to put him above Batman as such , his feats even when hes older and not at all sober ( from making Batman work for it to dodging Deadshot at close range) for me put him right up there with Bruce

The fact that he has a body reading technique that Bruce doesn't, swings it in his favour IMO

MidTierHero
05-19-2014, 04:10 PM
Dude you asked for top fighters beaten by Cain. Im just naming names

And you are going out of your way to downplay a guy who even drunk and senile can hang with Batman, actually has at his peak at various times stalemated Slade and Bruce , been the guy to take down Shiva etc

While I don't think there's anything to put him above Batman as such , his feats even when hes older and not at all sober ( from making Batman work for it to dodging Deadshot at close range) for me put him right up there with Bruce

The fact that he has a body reading technique that Bruce doesn't, swings it in his favour IMO

So now Cain is not only drunk, but senile?!? What other ailments was he he suffering from when he fought Batman?

You're right, I asked for top H2H fighters beaten by Cain in H2H. You naming random people that Cain didn't beat in H2H, lost to in H2H, or who aren't top H2H fighters doesn't add to the debate.

This is the reason why it's good to post scans with stated feats - because otherwise things become what they aren't. Cain did NOT "take down Shiva." Cain is not senile. Cain was not passed out drunk when he fought Batman.

Why do you consider my insistence on going by feats "downplaying", on a site that specifically goes by feats? There are plenty of other forums in which one can subjectively discuss the pros and cons of Batman vs. David Cain as characters, or how cool it would be if Cain actually beat Batman.

When has Cain ever shown body reading on the level that Cass has? If he has, wouldn't that completely invalidate the experiment that he performed on her - namely, that not allowing a child to learn written or spoken language would lead them to use body reading as a language? And why hasn't that body reading EVER given him victory over a top H2H fighter?

Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh
05-19-2014, 04:19 PM
You know, it does kind of make debating a point hard when you ... refuse to acknowledge what's beings said.

Food for thought.

Daenarys Stormborn
05-19-2014, 04:37 PM
Yeah, they probably could. Especially if it's bulletproof.

Meanwhile, the Punisher in one of these suits would utterly destroy him.

I can't remember if it's bulletproof. It did amp Punisher to Superhuman levels of strength and durability, but it leaves most of the face exposed. So if Cain is faster than Punisher and carries around a fire-arm he could still probably win. I don't see a normal human standing a chance even in Black Widow suit, which covered everything. Cain would probably be hard pressed to damage the person, but anyone comic book fast could dance around a normal human all day long.

Also, reading a few more post...unless the fight was in close combat or something, dodging deadshot really shouldn't be any kind of indication of High Tier CQC skill. That kind of stuff usually shows speed- either aim dodging or bullet-timing and maybe soft skills to anticipate and all that. But I could be wrong...depends on what the scan actually shows...i've never seen it

MidTierHero
05-19-2014, 05:10 PM
You know, it does kind of make debating a point hard when you ... refuse to acknowledge what's beings said.

Food for thought.


It's even harder to debate a point when that point is factually incorrect, and no evidence exists to support it.

Jmacq1
05-22-2014, 10:11 AM
So go make a David Cain vs. Batman thread and take the tangent you and your friend seem dead-set on harping over elsewhere.

Based on all available evidence, I still give the nod to Cain in a match against Frank Castle.