PDA

View Full Version : battle of the expendable nobodies- StarTrek Red Shirts vs Star Wars Storm Troopers



archivalMadness
05-06-2014, 10:15 PM
Scenario 1- each side is made up of a six man squad set up on opposite sides of an otherwise empty forest

Scenario 2- both parties are made up of 100 man platoons and are confronting each other within the jungle surrounding the mekong river

How's this go?

carrrnuttt
05-07-2014, 12:25 PM
Scenario 1- each side is made up of a six man squad set up on opposite sides of an otherwise empty forest

Scenario 2- both parties are made up of 100 man platoons and are confronting each other within the jungle surrounding the mekong river

How's this go?

If it's standard equipment: Phasers set to kill with a spread blast means the Troopers will all be doing the Wilhelm Scream as they all disintegrate.

The Chou Lives
05-07-2014, 01:25 PM
Yeah. The main reason Red Shirts died in ST was to show off "whats wrong with situation" as their explorers.

While Troopers are actual army and still get schooled.

Also the Shirts have better weapons. Phasers > Blasters.

Hiromi
05-07-2014, 02:48 PM
Troopers demonstrated that when they weren't dealing with named characters they were pretty damned competent(boarding of the Tantive IV, storming the Rebel base on Hoth and achieving it's objective, being essentially minutes away from winning the ground fight on Endor until Chewbaca got into an ATST, etc).

Secondly Red Shirts refers exclusively to TOS security personnel, as starting with Wrath of Khan Starfleet began shifting the color red for Command officers and security eventually went to Gold, so they don't have TNG phasers, do the TOS pistol phasers have any demonstrated wide angle capability?

The Immortal Watch Dog
05-07-2014, 03:16 PM
Stormtroopers haven't demonstrated any such competency outside of killing junk dealers and families. The Battle of Hoth was their best showing and much of that was done almost entirely by the walkers under Veers command and not the troopers, who broke into a largely deserted base.

Hiromi
05-07-2014, 03:29 PM
The Tantive IV boarding was so far to my knowledge a more impressive military feat(storming a room with an enemy that's had time to take cover through a choke point while causing significant casualties while sustaining minimal casualties of their own) than any force of red shirted security detail ever displayed throughout the original series.

The Immortal Watch Dog
05-07-2014, 03:36 PM
The Tantive IV boarding was so far to my knowledge a more impressive military feat(storming a room with an enemy that's had time to take cover through a choke point while causing significant casualties while sustaining minimal casualties of their own) than any force of red shirted security detail ever displayed throughout the original series.

they killed a bunch of renta cops and took massive losses. Honestly both sides of this argument are laughably incompetent, it comes down to who has the better guns and barring any heavy missiles or anything the Feds have that one

edit- AM didn't realize this was your thread, look whose got himself into sci fi fights now:p

Hiromi
05-07-2014, 03:42 PM
They lost 2 troopers in a deathtrap of a scenario, hardly "massive." Meanwhile they were trying to do their best not to trip over the bodies of the rentacops they left.

Still waiting on demonstrated feats for wide angle shots from TOS era pistol phasers.

And frankly barring a wide angle shot I don't the buy superior weapon, bit at all. Prove via feats they had better range, prove that the redshirts can fire them with anything resembling accuracy given their lack of sights, iron or otherwise, and poorly positioned barrel, or that the vaunted red polyester shirt would provide any more protection against weapons blasting chunks out of a landing/takeoff hanger or holes in the metallic walls of Cloud City than Stormtrooper armor would against TOS Phasers. I'll be waiting.

Hell while I'm at it, what evidence is there at all that Redshirts have any squad or large scale combat training or experience whatsoever, when was the last time the Federation was involved in a ground war? Why would exploration starship security be expected to have anything resembling large scale combat training? Stormtroopers have explicit feats of firing from cover, how often do Redshirts engage in likely the most basic of military engagement rules?

The Immortal Watch Dog
05-07-2014, 03:54 PM
They lost 2 troopers in a deathtrap of a scenario, hardly "massive." Meanwhile they were trying to do their best not to trip over the bodies of the rentacops they left.

two deaths is too many for what the ST's are supposed to be.


Still waiting on demonstrated feats for wide angle shots from TOS era pistol phasers.

Yeah, you go ahead and take that up with the one claiming it, as opposed to demanding of everyone else in the thread something they didn't claim.


And frankly barring a wide angle shot I don't the buy superior weapon, bit at all. POrove via feats they had better range, prove that the vaunted red polyester shirt would provide any more protection against weapons blasting chunks out of a landing/takeoff hanger or holes in the metallic walls of Cloud City than Stormtrooper armor would against TOS Phasers. I'll be waiting.

..prove that they had better range? Are you serious? Jesus Hiromi, the more things change the more they stay the same huh? Every single wars battle involves blaster bolts flying all over the place, most miss, their range seems to be shorter than some kinetic based weapons from sci fi. You compare this to phasers which almost universally result in somebody being vaporized or killed, in TOS any way rarely missed- hell ship based phasers could target a single person on a planet and knock their asses out..and those were not the precise weapons we saw in TNG, they were more akin to waves of energy.

and in defense of Chou, while not making his claim because I haven't seen TOS in ages, Data destroyed several miles of aqueduct with a generic phaser setting not a wide beam, just your typical energy beam followed by wide scale demolition, TNG was the era without the wide beam angles which were later readopted into use during the Dominion war. Chou's probably referring to something done by Kirk and co..

Hiromi
05-07-2014, 04:11 PM
two deaths is too many for what the ST's are supposed to be.


Bunch of troops charging through a corridor into an open space full of people who already have their weapons trained on them and only lose two men, yeah sorry you're just objectively wrong on this, we lost far too many Marines and soldiers overseas in this situation during building clearing to the point we had to redesign our tactics for it from the ground up for you to sound anything but horrendously ignorant on this.



Yeah, you go ahead and take that up with the one claiming it, as opposed to demanding of everyone else in the thread something they didn't claim.
My contention is that without a wide angle setting, phasers don't have any major advantage in this scenario, forest? Cover and concealment everywhere? One side is dressed in white and the other in bright red, neither is hiding well so it comes down to aiming and effective range. Carrnut actually made the intial claim, not Chou


..prove that they had better range? Are you serious? Jesus Hiromi, the more things change the more they stay the same huh? Every single wars battle involves blaster bolts flying all over the place, most miss, their range seems to be shorter than some kinetic based weapons from sci fi. You compare this to phasers which almost universally result in somebody being vaporized or killed, in TOS any way rarely missed- hell ship based phasers could target a single person on a planet and knock their asses out..and those were not the precise weapons we saw in TNG, they were more akin to waves of energy.

and in defense of Chou, while not making his claim because I haven't seen TOS in ages, Data destroyed several miles of aqueduct with a generic phaser setting not a wide beam, just your typical energy beam followed by wide scale demolition, TNG was the era without the wide beam angles which were later readopted into use during the Dominion war. Chou's probably referring to something done by Kirk and co..

considering the kind of havoc an overloading TOS phaser entails this strikes me as just as dangerous to the Redshirts as it is to the troopers, unless you're contending they can THROW them far enough away to be lesser effected to any great degree. Kirk had to evacuate an entire deck when this kind of thing happened and even after throwing it down a disposal chute the blast was still powerful enough to shake the entire deck.
Edit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbN02JG-QGE
here's the scene, it strikes as far too powerful to be effective as a deliberate hand thrown weapon, add to this it takes forever for it to explode, is loud as all Hell, makes it unlikely that it'll be effective as atrap.

EFFECTIVE range is a different animal than maximum range, Stormtrooper blasters at the very least have sights on them(and when aimed properly you have feats such as the Trooper nailing Leia in the shoulder, or R2 when he was trying to hack the door), and the engagement on Endor was at least set at fairly realistic ranges given the terrain, which is remarkably similar to this scenario. So give me feats of red shirts hitting targets at range, the phaser is well known as a gun designed by liberal arts majors with no actual handgun ergonomics whatsoever, you'll need actual feats to counter that.

And no TNG feats have no bearing on TOS weaponry whatsoever, and you know this. There's a century of difference. If TOS gets the wide angle setting, it's because they demonstrate it via feats, otherwise it's just as easy if not moreso to assume the advance was made sometimes in a hundred years of tech development.

Edit: To show I'm trying to be objective here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvI_FYarYIY has some instance that look kinda wideish angle(particularly with the sun effect), though not on the TNG level, anyone have anything else?

The Immortal Watch Dog
05-07-2014, 04:44 PM
Bunch of troops charging through a corridor into an open space full of people who already have their weapons trained on them and only lose two men, yeah sorry you're just objectively wrong on this, we lost far too many Marines and soldiers overseas in this situation during building clearing to the point we had to redesign our tactics for it from the ground up for you to sound anything but horrendously ignorant on this.

I don't think highlighting their bone headed tactics then mentioning how a vastly inferior and far more primitive army met similar results and actually adapted (imperial soldiers didn't) is helping you prove they are superior.

I mean, yeah I'm gonna stop shifting goal posts and concede the point but it's one that does more for my side than yours.



My contention is that without a wide angle setting, phasers don't have any major advantage in this scenario, forest? Cover and concealment everywhere? One side is dressed in white and the other in bright red, neither is hiding well so it comes down to aiming and effective range. Carrnut actually made the intial claim, not Chou


Blasting through trees, vaporizing them and the like to get at the troopers is something they can actually do by TOS feats, but the ST'ers can't do back. This is a rather potent advantage, this is ignoring the fact that the videos you just posted demolished any claims that you can make about the troopers having superior fire power. I mean flattening super heating rocks to where they stay warm for hours, stunning people causing explosions and vaporizing stuff? that jungle and forest are going to do an awesome job covering for them.



EFFECTIVE range is a different animal than maximum range, Stormtrooper blasters at the very least have sights on them(and when aimed properly you have feats such as the Trooper nailing Leia in the shoulder, or R2 when he was trying to hack the door), and the engagement on Endor was at least set at fairly realistic ranges given the terrain, which is remarkably similar to this scenario. So give me feats of red shirts hitting targets at range, the phaser is well known as a gun designed by liberal arts majors with no actual handgun ergonomics whatsoever, you'll need actual feats to counter that.


I'll give you Artoo but Leia was a botched killshot, their armor was also being damaged by Ewok weaponry so unless plastoid has some kind of energy resistance specific property, I'm not how that will help them either.


And no TNG feats have no bearing on TOS weaponry whatsoever, and you know this. There's a century of difference. If TOS gets the wide angle setting, it's because they demonstrate it via feats, otherwise it's just as easy if not moreso to assume the advance was made sometimes in a hundred years of tech development.

You need to reread my post, I was bringing up what Data did in a "they stopped using wide angles until the Founders started force feeding them their own planets" kind of way not attempting to pass it off as evidence. Let's not see things that aren't there..


Edit: To show I'm trying to be objective here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvI_FYarYIY has some instance that look kinda wideish angle(particularly with the sun effect), though not on the TNG level, anyone have anything else?

like I said above this part of your post just killed the debate

The Chou Lives
05-07-2014, 05:44 PM
Notice: In the Endor battle, the Emperor himself stated the Storm Troopers there were among the finest in the whole Empire.

So they were more "Impressive" goons than normal (By my understanding)

Now Hoth the Frozen world, that was impressive force due to the At-Ats and the fact the Imperials were going to take it that way, or just send in more troops as they had space. (So the Rebels, were just trying to scape alive, as it was a falling out.)

Also, Blasters are pretty much energy bullets. The most impressive feat was Escaping the Death Star, our Princess blasted a hole in the vent. A vent, not exactly the most tough of targets. And for some reason she was fine taking on on shoulder in ROTJ.

While Phaser Fire pretty much kills or reduces targets to nothing.

And the armor troopers wear apparently do nothing against blaster fire, so Phaser fire should work well.

Hiromi
05-07-2014, 05:54 PM
I don't think highlighting their bone headed tactics then mentioning how a vastly inferior and far more primitive army met similar results and actually adapted (imperial soldiers didn't) is helping you prove they are superior.

I mean, yeah I'm gonna stop shifting goal posts and concede the point but it's one that does more for my side than yours.



Blasting through trees, vaporizing them and the like to get at the troopers is something they can actually do by TOS feats, but the ST'ers can't do back. This is a rather potent advantage, this is ignoring the fact that the videos you just posted demolished any claims that you can make about the troopers having superior fire power. I mean flattening super heating rocks to where they stay warm for hours, stunning people causing explosions and vaporizing stuff? that jungle and forest are going to do an awesome job covering for them.


I'll give you Artoo but Leia was a botched killshot, their armor was also being damaged by Ewok weaponry so unless plastoid has some kind of energy resistance specific property, I'm not how that will help them either.



You need to reread my post, I was bringing up what Data did in a "they stopped using wide angles until the Founders started force feeding them their own planets" kind of way not attempting to pass it off as evidence. Let's not see things that aren't there..


like I said above this part of your post just killed the debate

Speaking of seeing things not there, I have not at any point in time claimed superior firepower for the Troopers, nor have I argued their armor being particularly effective if it is hit, at best I argued that it's equal or that the phasers don't have a real practical advantage, yes the phasers will kill a trooper, by the same token a blaster shot going by it's best showing is going to do the same to red polyester. I've brought up this before but the actual blaster hit to Leia's shoulder is a either low showing or evidence of power settings on the weapons as some EU sources like to claim(NOT getting into it, I have no desire whatsoever to get into some kind of canon fight, both explanations have the same result therefore it's irrelevant), gouging out chunks of a metal wall or blowing metal panels apart with single shots, or reducing certain golden protocol droids to a pile of scraps mean that blast should have obliterated it.

So you have weapons that can blow apart the cover and an opposition that so far as we know doesn't use cover/concealment on a regular basis, at the very most the Troopers might gain a first hit advantage out of it. AT the least its a wash.

Edit: now have I said blasters are better designed as a rifle/carbine than phasers are as a pistol? Yes, and it's not debatable, Trooper E-11s have extendable stocks, a scope, iron sights, a quick recharge/reload mechanism of some kind, a barrel you can aim down, etc. Phasers of the TOS have no sight of any kind, and aren't designed so that you could accurately aim down the barrel(the pistols have some kind of raised surface higher than the actual barrel, meaning you would perpetually hit below what you were aiming at), and they're the good version in that they at least resemble a handgun, TNG phasers are just awful. It's like arguing actual swords against Bat'leths.

Edit the second: You know I'd completely forgotten what happened but welcome back Immortal


Notice: In the Endor battle, the Emperor himself stated the Storm Troopers there were among the finest in the whole Empire.

So they were more "Impressive" goons than normal (By my understanding)

Now Hoth the Frozen world, that was impressive force due to the At-Ats and the fact the Imperials were going to take it that way, or just send in more troops as they had space. (So the Rebels, were just trying to scape alive, as it was a falling out.)

Also, Blasters are pretty much energy bullets. The most impressive feat was Escaping the Death Star, our Princess blasted a hole in the vent. A vent, not exactly the most tough of targets. And for some reason she was fine taking on on shoulder in ROTJ.

While Phaser Fire pretty much kills or reduces targets to nothing.

And the armor troopers wear apparently do nothing against blaster fire, so Phaser fire should work well.

There's nothing in the movies stating what blaster arein a technical sense, as I have always understood it the official explanation is a charged stream of particles produced by certain gases combined with an energy pack.

And there's more than just a vent blasting for high end blaster fire examples, see above. And as much as we like to point to Endor and say "lol best troops" looking at it seriously showed that the Troopers were winning, the Ewoks were running away in mass, a main character actually took a flesh wound!... and then Chewbaca hoped in one of the ATSTs

penguin-in-leather-jacket
05-07-2014, 06:13 PM
the meeting of the two sides generates a massive suckosity factor, which causes the whole universe to explode, thereby greatly disturbing the Force.

carrrnuttt
05-07-2014, 08:15 PM
Still waiting on demonstrated feats for wide angle shots from TOS era pistol phasers.

Sure.

17 seconds and 43 seconds in respectively: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvI_FYarYIY

In case you're wondering about the one from 17 seconds in, the full episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCem2hSyMkA#t=1037

17:17 in, Kirk specifically orders a wide-angle spread.

The Immortal Watch Dog
05-07-2014, 11:46 PM
Notice: In the Endor battle, the Emperor himself stated the Storm Troopers there were among the finest in the whole Empire.]

I always assume the Emperor was senile, it makes the pain in me as a warsie subside a bit


So they were more "Impressive" goons than normal (By my understanding)

that's sad


Also, Blasters are pretty much energy bullets. The most impressive feat was Escaping the Death Star, our Princess blasted a hole in the vent. A vent, not exactly the most tough of targets. And for some reason she was fine taking on on shoulder in ROTJ.


to be fair, there were also impressive holes blown into the sides of walls in cloud city.




Speaking of seeing things not there, I have not at any point in time claimed superior firepower for the Troopers, nor have I argued their armor being particularly effective if it is hit, at best I argued that it's equal or that the phasers don't have a real practical advantage,

Just covering my bases:p We've done this dance a good hundred times, it's like muscle memory I guess my bad:p

also that last bit is ludicrous by your own videos, you cannot claim the teams weapons are comparable.



yes the phasers will kill a trooper, by the same token a blaster shot going by it's best showing is going to do the same to red polyester. I've brought up this before but the actual blaster hit to Leia's shoulder is a either low showing or evidence of power settings on the weapons as some EU sources like to claim(NOT getting into it, I have no desire whatsoever to get into some kind of canon fight, both explanations have the same result therefore it's irrelevant), gouging out chunks of a metal wall or blowing metal panels apart with single shots, or reducing certain golden protocol droids to a pile of scraps mean that blast should have obliterated it.

There's no canon fight, GS's ruling about the EU being a stand alone universe just got reinforced by Disney officially declaring it non canon and an "ultimate star warsverse" so..you know..we don't have to revisit that old fight. Thank god



So you have weapons that can blow apart the cover and an opposition that so far as we know doesn't use cover/concealment on a regular basis, at the very most the Troopers might gain a first hit advantage out of it. AT the least its a wash.

You have weapons that were blowing fist size holes in metal and walls, vs weapons that super heat rocks, level support structures and vaporize stuff. Not comparable




Edit the second: You know I'd completely forgotten what happened but welcome back Immortal


Ancient, history and rather boring compared to what I've been up too since.

it feels odd to be back..I wanted to sock puppet so badly but I was always that anti troll guy. I wasn't going to stoop to their level, for awhile I missed you lunatics enough that it almost hurt. Then I got mad and got busy:p



the meeting of the two sides generates a massive suckosity factor, which causes the whole universe to explode, thereby greatly disturbing the Force.

I like you

Slade1
05-08-2014, 06:32 AM
Troopers demonstrated that when they weren't dealing with named characters they were pretty damned competent(boarding of the Tantive IV, storming the Rebel base on Hoth and achieving it's objective, being essentially minutes away from winning the ground fight on Endor until Chewbaca got into an ATST, etc).

Secondly Red Shirts refers exclusively to TOS security personnel, as starting with Wrath of Khan Starfleet began shifting the color red for Command officers and security eventually went to Gold, so they don't have TNG phasers, do the TOS pistol phasers have any demonstrated wide angle capability?

In TNG there were red-shirted for security officers.

Hiromi
05-08-2014, 02:01 PM
In TNG there were red-shirted for security officers.

No there weren't

Security fell under the Operations branch for uniform colors along with engineering and support, it's color ceased being red in the early 2260s, near a century before TNG
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet_uniform
here's a shot of TNG era(early TNG at that) security persons http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120729221405/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/f/f4/Starfleet_security_team%2C_2364.jpg/640px-Starfleet_security_team%2C_2364.jpg

By TNG if you wore a red uniform you were an officer in the Command division

As an example Worf started out in a red uniform... when he was a comm division bridge officer, later on he became acting Security Chief with Tasha Yarr's death... and promptly swapped to a gold uniform.

Slade1
05-08-2014, 02:50 PM
No there weren't

Security fell under the Operations branch for uniform colors along with engineering and support, it's color ceased being red in the early 2260s, near a century before TNG
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet_uniform
here's a shot of TNG era(early TNG at that) security persons http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120729221405/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/f/f4/Starfleet_security_team%2C_2364.jpg/640px-Starfleet_security_team%2C_2364.jpg

By TNG if you wore a red uniform you were an officer in the Command division

As an example Worf started out in a red uniform... when he was a comm division bridge officer, later on he became acting Security Chief with Tasha Yarr's death... and promptly swapped to a gold uniform.

You're right. My mistake.