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Alan2099
05-07-2014, 11:06 AM
http://i.imgur.com/rZCDUiX.jpg?1

VS

http://i.imgur.com/YwXUgZe.jpg?1

After messing around in another reality, Mr. Mxyzptlk offers to send the Justice League back to earth... he just doesn't specify which Earth.

The Justice find themselves teleported into a city that looks like a disaster hit it. (It was actually the Wrecking Crew, but their long gone now.)

About the same time, the Avengers receive a distress call saying some unknown superteam is tearing up the City.

Each team suspects the other group is the villains. Neither has any clue who the other team is.

Bloodlust is OFF. Characters will remain entirely in character, which includes the fact that characters aren't going to be speedblitzing each other left and right.

The Justice League Line-up consists of

Superman
Batman
Hawkgirl
Martian Manhunter
Green Lantern
Flash
Wonder Woman

The Avengers are ...
Captain America
Ironman
Thor
Hulk
Black Panther
Wasp
Antman/Giantman
Hawkeye
Ms. Marvel (even if she isn't in the picture)

The Team faces off and after a bit of "Stand down!" "No, YOU stand down!" Hawkeye fires the first arrow... and the fight is ON!

Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh
05-07-2014, 11:19 AM
The telepath.

Dark Soul # 7
05-07-2014, 11:43 AM
The telepath.
J'Onn wasn't all that impressive as far as telepaths goes, at least not for combat purposes. He prefered to punch things over blasting them mentally.

What's gonna do the Avengers in is Superman's standard strength and speed combo.

The Immortal Watch Dog
05-07-2014, 11:48 AM
Hulk is kind of way, way out of their league unless Clark blitzes him in a suicide ram ala what Kara did to that asteroid. Thors outnumbered by heavy hitters though and I don't remember Marvels feats enough to say she could pick up the slack

Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh
05-07-2014, 11:49 AM
J'Onn wasn't all that impressive as far as telepaths goes, at least not for combat purposes. He prefered to punch things over blasting them mentally.

What's gonna do the Avengers in is Superman's standard strength and speed combo.

Since the Avengers: EMH crew doesn't have any mental shielding (to the best of my knowledge), his feats don't exactly need to be impressive.

Dark Soul # 7
05-07-2014, 11:57 AM
Since the Avengers: EMH crew doesn't have any mental shielding (to the best of my knowledge), his feats don't exactly need to be impressive.
He still needs to have the feats and there're very few times that J'Onn tries to use telepathy for attack purposes. And all those times, at least as far as I remember, he only ever focuses on one target at the time and has to really conentrate on the task. Like staying still and touching the person he's attacking.

He mainly used his telepathy for mind-reading and conversations.

Tangent Man
05-07-2014, 01:01 PM
Wally speed-blitzes the Avengers. Even the DCAU version pulled ridiculous feats!

Anarchist
05-07-2014, 01:32 PM
Wally speed-blitzes the Avengers. Even the DCAU version pulled ridiculous feats!

Aye

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53OyPYa7SEI

And he doesn't even need to go half that far for the Avengers.

Surtur
05-07-2014, 02:22 PM
J'Onn wasn't all that impressive as far as telepaths goes, at least not for combat purposes. He prefered to punch things over blasting them mentally.

What's gonna do the Avengers in is Superman's standard strength and speed combo.

J'onn has telepathically knocked people out with a thought, he does it in the episode where GL is framed for destroying a planet. He has feats of even invading the mind of those with some mental resistance, though it took time(nobody here has any resistance that I know of). He can also phase, go invisible, and come back from being torn in half. Oh, and he can run at super speed in short bursts and has enough strength to throw down with the Annihilator. It's going to be a multitude of things that cost the Avengers this fight.

Supes can blitz any one of them, and his HV should go through even the Hulk with enough focus, after they've cleared out everyone else he can just lay it on him. The combo of Supes, J'onn, and Flash means everyone on the Avengers side is screwed.

Alan2099
05-07-2014, 02:41 PM
I distinctive said in the opening post that everyone is going to be acting in character and people are still talking about everyone pushing themselves to the absolute limits, using tricks they pretty much never used, and going for killing blows.

Is it really so hard for people here to think in terms of character instead of thinking of them as a checklist of their best feats?

Surtur
05-07-2014, 03:21 PM
I distinctive said in the opening post that everyone is going to be acting in character and people are still talking about everyone pushing themselves to the absolute limits, using tricks they pretty much never used, and going for killing blows.

Is it really so hard for people here to think in terms of character instead of thinking of them as a checklist of their best feats?

In character? Flip a coin I guess. There is a reason we usually don't do fights in character, because it is hard to say. In character? Flash may..or may not decide to remember his speed. Who knows, I don't know, do you? There isn't any way to tell, because "in character" sometimes he remembers to use it well and sometimes he doesn't.

big_adventure
05-07-2014, 04:38 PM
I distinctive said in the opening post that everyone is going to be acting in character and people are still talking about everyone pushing themselves to the absolute limits, using tricks they pretty much never used, and going for killing blows.

Is it really so hard for people here to think in terms of character instead of thinking of them as a checklist of their best feats?

You have been in the group for long enough to know that you can't specify PIS - ergo, you can't say 'no blitz', unless you say 'speed equalized', but that's a big changer.

MorphyVSFischer
05-07-2014, 04:49 PM
I distinctive said in the opening post that everyone is going to be acting in character and people are still talking about everyone pushing themselves to the absolute limits, using tricks they pretty much never used, and going for killing blows.

Is it really so hard for people here to think in terms of character instead of thinking of them as a checklist of their best feats?

How are people intelligently thinking "gee I should use my speed" and push myself to win this fight indicative of bloodlust? Feats still apply even in character and people with the better feats still win, if you want a story write some fanfiction.

Guy1
05-07-2014, 04:53 PM
I distinctive said in the opening post that everyone is going to be acting in character and people are still talking about everyone pushing themselves to the absolute limits, using tricks they pretty much never used, and going for killing blows.

Is it really so hard for people here to think in terms of character instead of thinking of them as a checklist of their best feats?

Yo man, PIS is never really on. Going by best feats is just how things are done here. And, dial it back a tad, okay?

Guy1
05-07-2014, 04:54 PM
In character? Flip a coin I guess. There is a reason we usually don't do fights in character, because it is hard to say. In character? Flash may..or may not decide to remember his speed. Who knows, I don't know, do you? There isn't any way to tell, because "in character" sometimes he remembers to use it well and sometimes he doesn't.

Also, Flash looked pretty in character when he blitzed Luthor. Granted, he did say that if he went that fast again, he wouldn't come back. But bloodlust in a fight should cover that.

Guy1
05-07-2014, 04:56 PM
Bloodlust is OFF. Characters will remain entirely in character, which includes the fact that characters aren't going to be speedblitzing each other left and right.

Ahh, nvm. So outright blitzing and bloodlust are off, cool. But, in character, wouldn't the League at least try to talk it out?

Granted, Hulk is there, so that might not work out.

Tangent Man
05-07-2014, 05:11 PM
In character, Superman speed-blitzed Ms. Marvel until she almost vomited! Hey, the MU Handbook treated it as canon, so it's legit here as projective comparison! DCAU Wonder Woman could hold her own with IM, maybe even Thor. Batman, IC, takes out Panther & Wasp. Hawkeye is a joke in a fight with the League. Flash, still IC, could blitz them all for giggles!

byc
05-07-2014, 05:24 PM
If it's in character, bloodlust off, they end up talking.

Pym is ALWAYS trying to talk it out, and Panther doesn't mind. Batman can convince JL to slow up, and then J'onn can mind read them to see they are heroes.

This is why we don't do in character, bloodlust off. Because it ends in talk.

Hazard
05-07-2014, 05:29 PM
In character, Superman speed-blitzed Ms. Marvel until she almost vomited! Hey, the MU Handbook treated it as canon, so it's legit here as projective comparison! DCAU Wonder Woman could hold her own with IM, maybe even Thor. Batman, IC, takes out Panther & Wasp. Hawkeye is a joke in a fight with the League. Flash, still IC, could blitz them all for giggles!

A couple of things.

Crossover events are not considered canon on Rumbles.

Speed as per OP's request for no blitzing is equalized.

Batman would get his ass kicked by Panther. The guy's vibranium weapons were tearing apart giant robots like a hot knife through butter. He has also done some pretty superhuman jumps.

Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh
05-07-2014, 05:38 PM
In character, Superman speed-blitzed Ms. Marvel until she almost vomited! Hey, the MU Handbook treated it as canon, so it's legit here as projective comparison! DCAU Wonder Woman could hold her own with IM, maybe even Thor. Batman, IC, takes out Panther & Wasp. Hawkeye is a joke in a fight with the League. Flash, still IC, could blitz them all for giggles!

Handbooks aren't considered cannon, neither are crossovers.

Not to mention this is the cartoon versions, and as far as I know, they've never actually ... crossed over.

:)

EDIT: Aaaaaaaand Deadpool gets blitzed by Spiderman.

GOOD THING YOU CAN'T ACTUALLY KILL ME YEH EGGHEAD.

Hazard
05-07-2014, 05:44 PM
I will have to be satisfied with being a more widely beloved character then :)

Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh
05-07-2014, 05:48 PM
I will have to be satisfied with being a more widely beloved character then :)

Says the man who gave up his wife to get his aunt back.

Hazard
05-07-2014, 05:52 PM
... low blow.

Tangent Man
05-07-2014, 06:31 PM
A couple of things.

Crossover events are not considered canon on Rumbles.


The companies and Busiek treated it as canon. He followed it up in JLA. Kinda arbitrary to throw out source material. Maybe that ruling needs revisiting?



Speed as per OP's request for no blitzing is equalized.


Superman could still fly circles around Carol, trapping her in a dizzying funnel. Not even a true blitz, he's just faster and more powerful!



Batman would get his ass kicked by Panther. The guy's vibranium weapons were tearing apart giant robots like a hot knife through butter. He has also done some pretty superhuman jumps.

He didn't show anything Timm Batman couldn't handle. Smoke bombs, tear gas, and knockout gas are Batman's friends and Panther's bane!

master of read
05-07-2014, 06:33 PM
The companies and Busiek treated it as canon. He followed it up in JLA. Kinda arbitrary to throw out source material. Maybe that ruling needs revisiting?



Superman could still fly circles around Carol, trapping her in a dizzying funnel. Not even a true blitz, he's just faster and more powerful!



He didn't show anything Timm Batman couldn't handle. Smoke bombs, tear gas, and knockout gas are Batman's friends and Panther's bane!

its been a part of the rulings that cross overs are not considered cannon, due to characters either jobbing or looking way too strong than they should be. unless you actually think wolverine posses any of threat to lobo.

Pendaran
05-07-2014, 06:35 PM
Ahh, nvm. So outright blitzing and bloodlust are off, cool. But, in character, wouldn't the League at least try to talk it out?

Granted, Hulk is there, so that might not work out.

Erm, even with bloodlust off, PIS is never considered on in threads, unless that's being changed now. Characters would remember what their superpowers are and to use them just fine.

Tangent Man
05-07-2014, 06:36 PM
its been a part of the rulings that cross overs are not considered cannon, due to characters either jobbing or looking way too strong than they should be. unless you actually think wolverine posses any of threat to lobo.

I didn't, but the fans who voted felt otherwise. You're talking about a VOTING event, which would be disqualified anyway. Right? Busiek didn't job the heroes, everyone had a fair showing.

master of read
05-07-2014, 06:38 PM
I didn't, but the fans who voted felt otherwise. You're talking about a VOTING event, which would be disqualified anyway. Right? Busiek didn't job the heroes, everyone had a fair showing.

regardless of weither they were fair showings or not, crossovers and handbooks are not usable here.

Guy1
05-07-2014, 06:43 PM
I didn't, but the fans who voted felt otherwise. You're talking about a VOTING event, which would be disqualified anyway. Right? Busiek didn't job the heroes, everyone had a fair showing.

Crossovers and Voting Events generally aren't held up as examples of canon material regarding character powers and performance in battle.
Remember Wolverine VS Lobo? That's generally the reason.

master of read
05-07-2014, 06:44 PM
Crossovers and Voting Events generally aren't held up as examples of canon material regarding character powers and performance in battle.
Remember Wolverine VS Lobo? That's generally the reason.

i also remember a comic where batman beat up spawn.


let that soak for a bit.

Tangent Man
05-07-2014, 06:54 PM
Crossovers and Voting Events generally aren't held up as examples of canon material regarding character powers and performance in battle.
Remember Wolverine VS Lobo? That's generally the reason.

Yeah, I already responded to that same example. Marvel Vs. DC based outcomes on fan votes. JLA/Avengers brawls were plotted by a talented writer who wasn't staging an inter-company popularity contest. So please let's get away from "Wolverine Vs. Lobo" as an all-purpose rebuttal when it's quite clear by now that I wouldn't offer it up as a support. That's comparing apples & oranges, and we all know it.

I brought up a scene from a story that Marvel & DC acknowledged after the fact in different publications. I said the question should be revisited, at least in regards to a story in canon, not that bad crossovers should be law. A bit of a difference there.

Siriel
05-07-2014, 07:01 PM
I distinctive said in the opening post that everyone is going to be acting in character and people are still talking about everyone pushing themselves to the absolute limits, using tricks they pretty much never used, and going for killing blows.

Only that last one is a relevant complaint.

It's well within Flash or Superman's personality to end a fight the moment it begins at superspeed. Bloostlust can be turned off. PIS cannot. People can and will use their abilities as required.


In character, Superman speed-blitzed Ms. Marvel until she almost vomited! Hey, the MU Handbook treated it as canon, so it's legit here as projective comparison!

Neither crossovers (between different companies) nor handbooks are useable as evidence, actually.


Yeah, I already responded to that same example. Marvel Vs. DC based outcomes on fan votes. JLA/Avengers brawls were plotted by a talented writer who wasn't staging an inter-company popularity contest. So please let's get away from "Wolverine Vs. Lobo" as an all-purpose rebuttal when it's quite clear by now that I wouldn't offer it up as a support. That's comparing apples & oranges, and we all know it.

I brought up a scene from a story that Marvel & DC acknowledged after the fact in different publications. I said the question should be revisited, at least in regards to a story in canon, not that bad crossovers should be law. A bit of a difference there.

You then descend into the madness of trying to figure out why, of all the various times the multiverse has been threatened/outright retconned out in one of the company's storylines, the other company's multiverse went unaffected.

It simply doesn't add up.

Pendaran
05-07-2014, 07:02 PM
Yeah, I already responded to that same example. Marvel Vs. DC based outcomes on fan votes. JLA/Avengers brawls were plotted by a talented writer who wasn't staging an inter-company popularity contest. So please let's get away from "Wolverine Vs. Lobo" as an all-purpose rebuttal when it's quite clear by now that I wouldn't offer it up as a support. That's comparing apples & oranges, and we all know it.

I brought up a scene from a story that Marvel & DC acknowledged after the fact in different publications. I said the question should be revisited, at least in regards to a story in canon, not that bad crossovers should be law. A bit of a difference there.

Access, from Marvel vs DC, appeared in DC proper. So, if your standard is "acknowledged", so was he.

Tangent Man
05-07-2014, 07:10 PM
Siriel: the story cited the incredibly tough multiversal barriers separating the two universes and their different natures as reasons they were incompatible. That detail points to why, say, Flashpoint wouldn't impact Marvel.

Regardless, the stunt I mentioned is still within animated Superman's capabilities.

Acecool
05-07-2014, 10:38 PM
The biggest threat to the Justice league is Thor and to a lesser degree Ms. Marvel. Hulk is probably the most durable of the lot. It is possible that he will get angry enough that he could become a threat.

Thor has massive damage soak (island dropped on him; vision from space) and was able to hurt Galactus. I don't think anyone on the Justice league showed that they could deal enough damage that they could put down Thor. Flash's attack on Branilex was awesome, but I don't know that it would be enough to put Thor down.

Ms. Marvel was shown to be able to absorb energy and redirect it, again with Galactus. That was a pretty awesome feat.

The justice league has a lot of speed based powers. However, IIRC with the exception of flash, most of that was travel speed. Even Flash in the video was using more travel speed rather than reaction speed.

That being said, I think MM's mental attack is enough to put down the lot of the Avengers. The fact that he can go incorporeal doesn't help the Avengers much. The only showing of resisting mental powers that I can recall was resisting the purple man and they weren't all that successful with that.

zhris
05-07-2014, 10:44 PM
If it's in character, bloodlust off, they end up talking.

Pym is ALWAYS trying to talk it out, and Panther doesn't mind. Batman can convince JL to slow up, and then J'onn can mind read them to see they are heroes.

This is why we don't do in character, bloodlust off. Because it ends in talk.

^^This. The JL are going to be curious about some guy dressed up like a walking American flag, and Cap isn't typically a 'shoot first and ask questions later' type.

seaturkey
05-08-2014, 12:12 AM
regardless of who wins, GL stewart and Hawkgirl are bastards. Hawkgirl was married to Hawkman and for only selfish reasons betrayed her husband to screw his best friend. Vile, classless act of betray. Easily the worst "story" of the DCAU, glorifying cheating as if it's somehow romantic.

Guy1
05-08-2014, 12:40 AM
regardless of who wins, GL stewart and Hawkgirl are bastards. Hawkgirl was married to Hawkman and for only selfish reasons betrayed her husband to screw his best friend. Vile, classless act of betray. Easily the worst "story" of the DCAU, glorifying cheating as if it's somehow romantic.

Not really the place for attacking characters turkey.

master of read
05-08-2014, 03:13 AM
regardless of who wins, GL stewart and Hawkgirl are bastards. Hawkgirl was married to Hawkman and for only selfish reasons betrayed her husband to screw his best friend. Vile, classless act of betray. Easily the worst "story" of the DCAU, glorifying cheating as if it's somehow romantic.

and this has what to do with the topic at hand?

Daenarys Stormborn
05-08-2014, 04:34 AM
http://i.imgur.com/rZCDUiX.jpg?1

VS

http://i.imgur.com/YwXUgZe.jpg?1

After messing around in another reality, Mr. Mxyzptlk offers to send the Justice League back to earth... he just doesn't specify which Earth.

The Justice find themselves teleported into a city that looks like a disaster hit it. (It was actually the Wrecking Crew, but their long gone now.)

About the same time, the Avengers receive a distress call saying some unknown superteam is tearing up the City.

Each team suspects the other group is the villains. Neither has any clue who the other team is.

Bloodlust is OFF. Characters will remain entirely in character, which includes the fact that characters aren't going to be speedblitzing each other left and right.

The Justice League Line-up consists of

Superman
Batman
Hawkgirl
Martian Manhunter
Green Lantern
Flash
Wonder Woman

The Avengers are ...
Captain America
Ironman
Thor
Hulk
Black Panther
Wasp
Antman/Giantman
Hawkeye
Ms. Marvel (even if she isn't in the picture)

The Team faces off and after a bit of "Stand down!" "No, YOU stand down!" Hawkeye fires the first arrow... and the fight is ON!

Hulk without bloodlust would just attack. He won't pause to slowly inquire about if these new masked people really laid wasted to everything around him. Once Hulk begins everyone will follow suit. These fights will be more akin to skirmish. Cap and Batman are the ones who would probably still be having a dialogue while they fight. Here, MM is highly unlikely to attempt any kind of mental shutdowns just because. If both sides came to an understanding, IM would probably tell them Hulk's weakness, which would in turn lead to a MM putting down the only real tension between teams .

-Hulk basically solos in a speed usage forbidden scenario where no one is out to kill (namely flash using vibrations or s/w just blitzing). Opening sequence is GL trapping hulk in a bubble, the bubble getting broken, Superman attempting to restrain Hulk, Hulk thunder-clapping, and Hulk smashing Superman until he is satisfied. When Superman is being smashed, WW reacts by jumping him. She'd blitz him even IC non bloodlusted- but she is too weak to put him down. Hulk thunderclaps. The rest of the avengers now move to restraining Hulk because they won't sit back and watch him beat the other side to death. In the end, everyone eventually comes to a sit down to talk things out...

They discover the real criminal was Darkseid and go after him :)

Basara
05-08-2014, 04:47 AM
regardless of who wins, GL stewart and Hawkgirl are bastards. Hawkgirl was married to Hawkman and for only selfish reasons betrayed her husband to screw his best friend. Vile, classless act of betray. Easily the worst "story" of the DCAU, glorifying cheating as if it's somehow romantic.

No they aren't. Bad story not-withstanding (of which every series has), Hawkgirl and GL are not the slightest bit guilty of what their previous ancestral incarnations did.

I just want to point out here that when we say heroes are in character, that just means that none of the characters were not trying to kill the others. We are still assuming that they are fighting to the best of their abilities otherwise. Thus, Superman and Flash will not simply forget they have super-speed and MM will not forget he has telepathy. The Avengers are basically screwed because Jon will put Thor to sleep at the opening bell and he is the only one pretty much capable of defeating the heavy hitters of the League.

Surtur
05-08-2014, 05:53 AM
-Hulk basically solos in a speed usage forbidden scenario where no one is out to kill (namely flash using vibrations or s/w just blitzing). Opening sequence is GL trapping hulk in a bubble, the bubble getting broken, Superman attempting to restrain Hulk, Hulk thunder-clapping, and Hulk smashing Superman until he is satisfied. When Superman is being smashed, WW reacts by jumping him. She'd blitz him even IC non bloodlusted- but she is too weak to put him down. Hulk thunderclaps. The rest of the avengers now move to restraining Hulk because they won't sit back and watch him beat the other side to death. In the end, everyone eventually comes to a sit down to talk things out...

Even without speed your scenario for Hulk solo'ing requires every single character to act like an utter moron. What do you think that says about his chances, overall? When he has to depend on not just no speed, but utter stupidity from his opponents?


regardless of who wins, GL stewart and Hawkgirl are bastards. Hawkgirl was married to Hawkman and for only selfish reasons betrayed her husband to screw his best friend. Vile, classless act of betray. Easily the worst "story" of the DCAU, glorifying cheating as if it's somehow romantic.

Well, it has nothing to do with the topic, but she was never married to anyone. She was more or less in a relationship when she went to Earth yes, but not married. Still shady though, not sure why GL ever takes her back. I'd of booted that chick to the curb long ago. Sorry honey, way too many females who don't lie or betray out there for me to settle for one who does, I don't care how big your wings are. I'd let Hawkgirl be someone elses problem, but that is just me. Being a spy is one thing, but part of her mission was not "bang a dude" unless there was a huge mixup in her orders. Or maybe she thought the JLA left a copy of all their weaknesses and flaws in a list under John Stewarts bed or something? Who knows, crazy bird folk and all.

Slade1
05-08-2014, 06:11 AM
i also remember a comic where batman beat up spawn.


let that soak for a bit.

In JLA vs X-Men, Bishop was giving J'onn trouble....that's much worse.

Gorthaur
05-08-2014, 06:37 AM
The Justice League have a more consistently high power level, with five of the seven members qualifying for the top power tier in either universe, and one mid-level brick with a disproportionately powerful weapon. However, the Avengers make up for it with more members and Thor. Bats is screwed against Cap, Panther and Hawkeye, and Iron Man, Ms. Marvel and Hulk are all strong enough to give a good fight to anyone in the League, and that should be all the chance Thor needs to blow them out of the sky.

Surtur
05-08-2014, 08:41 AM
The Justice League have a more consistently high power level, with five of the seven members qualifying for the top power tier in either universe, and one mid-level brick with a disproportionately powerful weapon. However, the Avengers make up for it with more members and Thor. Bats is screwed against Cap, Panther and Hawkeye, and Iron Man, Ms. Marvel and Hulk are all strong enough to give a good fight to anyone in the League, and that should be all the chance Thor needs to blow them out of the sky.

Again, this depends on the "will Flash remember his speed?" debate. If he is remembering it, you might as well not even bother mentioning Captain America, Black Panther, or Hawkeye. Also add someone like Wasp to that list as well. If Hank Pym begins in his normal form and has to switch to either giant or small after the bell, add him to that list as well. Even if you keep Hank off that list, the "more members" thing is gone literally before anyone can do anything.

Slade1
05-08-2014, 08:44 AM
Again, this depends on the "will Flash remember his speed?" debate. If he is remembering it, you might as well not even bother mentioning Captain America, Black Panther, or Hawkeye. Also add someone like Wasp to that list as well. If Hank Pym begins in his normal form and has to switch to either giant or small after the bell, add him to that list as well.

Since PIS is never off he will remember it. He just won't punch someone to death because bloodlust is turned off.

Surtur
05-08-2014, 08:47 AM
Since PIS is never off he will remember it. He just won't punch someone to death because bloodlust is turned off.

Yep so the Avengers are kind of screwed and their numbers advantage is gone in a Flash, pun totally intended. If we say Hank doesn't begin normal size that is a 50/50 shot he begins small, and depending on how small he is there is a good chance Flash can locate and KO him before he does anything too. Not to mention Superman has super speed and microscopic vision.

dupersuper
05-08-2014, 08:18 PM
In JLA vs X-Men, Bishop was giving J'onn trouble....that's much worse.

In JLA vs X-Men, niether Superman, Flash, J'onn, Wonder Woman or GL cleared out every one as soon as they entered.

Acecool
05-08-2014, 08:58 PM
Yep so the Avengers are kind of screwed and their numbers advantage is gone in a Flash, pun totally intended. If we say Hank doesn't begin normal size that is a 50/50 shot he begins small, and depending on how small he is there is a good chance Flash can locate and KO him before he does anything too. Not to mention Superman has super speed and microscopic vision.

Did superman actually show super fast reaction in the show? I only recall fast traveling speed for him.

Guy1
05-08-2014, 09:15 PM
Did superman actually show super fast reaction in the show? I only recall fast traveling speed for him.

I recall a few superspeed moments.
In an early episode of Superman, he was doing casual bullet catching.

Acecool
05-08-2014, 11:37 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPWlKL4WrlU

This is one thought that came to mind in terms of superman's reaction feats.


I recall a few superspeed moments.
In an early episode of Superman, he was doing casual bullet catching.

Gorthaur
05-08-2014, 11:47 PM
Again, this depends on the "will Flash remember his speed?" debate. If he is remembering it, you might as well not even bother mentioning Captain America, Black Panther, or Hawkeye. Also add someone like Wasp to that list as well. If Hank Pym begins in his normal form and has to switch to either giant or small after the bell, add him to that list as well. Even if you keep Hank off that list, the "more members" thing is gone literally before anyone can do anything.

Or rather, whether "in character" Flash is going to go for an immediate knockout. In a standard fight, yes, Flash takes out everyone weaker than Ms. Marvel, Thor gets tag-teamed before he can level the playing field (literally), and then the advantage is pretty solidly in the DC court.

Acecool
05-09-2014, 12:03 AM
Or rather, whether "in character" Flash is going to go for an immediate knockout. In a standard fight, yes, Flash takes out everyone weaker than Ms. Marvel, Thor gets tag-teamed before he can level the playing field (literally), and then the advantage is pretty solidly in the DC court.

I actually think the collective animated justice league would have trouble physically taking out Thor without either MM mind wiping him or green lantern planet busting. His durability is insane even for the animated series. Superman was the big puncher for the JL. At best we saw superman, when he went all out, knocking Darkseid through some buildings. That is not going to put Thor down. Probably not even close. I'm not even sure if such a punch would move him.

I actually think the same might be true for hulk whose durability was arguably greater than Thor's at times, but Hulk doesn't have the luxury of flight which means he might be knocked around like a pinball.

Pendaran
05-09-2014, 12:07 AM
Considering the thing with PIS, Flash will remember just fine his speed exists, that he's used it to attack people and can use it to attack people while hitting hard enough to knock out various and sundry.


I actually think the collective animated justice league would have trouble physically taking out Thor without either MM mind wiping him or green lantern planet busting.

Eh. A lot of people that could have done anything about the Manhunter making with the mind taking on anyone problematic are going to be dealt with by the Flash, and Superman to a certain extent. The latter guy can certainly run interference for as long as needed.

The Animated JLA are pretty solidly built to take the EMH Avengers.

Acecool
05-09-2014, 12:18 AM
Considering the thing with PIS, Flash will remember just fine his speed exists, that he's used it to attack people and can use it to attack people while hitting hard enough to knock out various and sundry.

Eh. A lot of people that could have done anything about the Manhunter making with the mind taking on anyone problematic are going to be dealt with by the Flash, and Superman to a certain extent. The latter guy can certainly run interference for as long as needed.

The Animated JLA are pretty solidly built to take the EMH Avengers.

Really, this comes down to Thor (maybe hulk) v. the Animated Justice League. With MM taking care of Thor and Hulk, that the end of the fight.

My only argument is in a purely physical terms, I don't think that the JL could take down Thor with the exception of GL's planet busting blast.

Guy Smiley
05-09-2014, 12:37 AM
Add one more to the "They talk it out" camp. J'onn's a telepath. He knows immediately that the other side are good guys and just... telepathically tells everyone to stand down, there's a misunderstanding. Even if Hulk keeps going, everyone's going to be trying to calm him down at that point.


EDIT: Aaaaaaaand Deadpool gets blitzed by Spiderman.

Wait, you're Deadpool? I thought you were Iron Man after being kicked in the crotch by the Hulk!

Basara
05-09-2014, 12:55 AM
Superman was the big puncher for the JL. At best we saw superman, when he went all out, knocking Darkseid through some buildings. That is not going to put Thor down. Probably not even close. I'm not even sure if such a punch would move him.

Um, no. At best, we saw Superman destroy a city fighting Captain Marvel, uppercut Lobo through the upper floors of a skyscrapper when he hit on Lois, and punch Darkseid across half a city whom it was quite clear would have traveled much, much, much further if Superman hadn't decided to create a crater using Darkseid's body.

EMH Thor hasn't faced anyone even close to DCAU Superman's strength. The EMH Avengers are way outgunned here.

Daenarys Stormborn
05-09-2014, 05:55 AM
Even without speed your scenario for Hulk solo'ing requires every single character to act like an utter moron. What do you think that says about his chances, overall? When he has to depend on not just no speed, but utter stupidity from his opponents?

I don't really think so. Without speed, the scenario I proposed would only require them to act with CIS. Superman/etc would use more powers and the fight would be more exhaustive and a lot more detailed but the scenario would more or less work out the same when speed is altogether removed, and CIS is in play. Hulk would end up the guy everyone eventually unites to calm down. How do you think it would go down sans speed with CIS in the Op scenario? What moves happen? What order?

Well, it has nothing to do with the topic, but she was never married to anyone. She was more or less in a relationship when she went to Earth yes, but not married. Still shady though, not sure why GL ever takes her back. I'd of booted that chick to the curb long ago. Sorry honey, way too many females who don't lie or betray out there for me to settle for one who does, I don't care how big your wings are. I'd let Hawkgirl be someone elses problem, but that is just me. Being a spy is one thing, but part of her mission was not "bang a dude" unless there was a huge mixup in her orders. Or maybe she thought the JLA left a copy of all their weaknesses and flaws in a list under John Stewarts bed or something? Who knows, crazy bird folk and all.

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Slade1
05-09-2014, 05:57 AM
In JLA vs X-Men, niether Superman, Flash, J'onn, Wonder Woman or GL cleared out every one as soon as they entered.

Yep, but the J'O'nn vs Bishop was the worst IMO.

Surtur
05-09-2014, 06:45 AM
Did superman actually show super fast reaction in the show? I only recall fast traveling speed for him.

Yup, bullet timing feats and feats of taking experimental weapons away from people before they can fire, etc. He's no Flash, but has more then enough to deal with anyone who isn't bullet timing.


I actually think the collective animated justice league would have trouble physically taking out Thor without either MM mind wiping him or green lantern planet busting. His durability is insane even for the animated series. Superman was the big puncher for the JL. At best we saw superman, when he went all out, knocking Darkseid through some buildings. That is not going to put Thor down. Probably not even close. I'm not even sure if such a punch would move him.

You seem to be awfully confused about Thor's durability. Why bring up planet busting for GL? They can't planet bust, it would of taken several of them just to bust half the planet and that was merely a *claim* from one of them. EMH Thor isn't ANYWHERE near that durable. I hope this isn't all from that one feat where a chunk of the city squashed him. That..isn't putting him in the durability league of "not even be budged by JLU Superman". I'd then ask what other feats besides that make you think that, since Thor didn't just show up in a single episode. Thor's durability isn't that utterly insane. He's not shrugging off or not being budged by Supes, not even close. Ignoring that Superman has heat vision capable of hurting people more durable then he is.

If you are telling me you can go back and watch all 50 plus episodes of the series and come away with the conclusion Thor consistently showed "can't be budged by JLU Superman" durability, I'd really have to ask what episodes you were watching?

Pendaran
05-09-2014, 07:45 AM
I don't really think so. Without speed, the scenario I proposed would only require them to act with CIS. Superman/etc would use more powers and the fight would be more exhaustive and a lot more detailed but the scenario would more or less work out the same when speed is altogether removed, and CIS is in play. Hulk would end up the guy everyone eventually unites to calm down. How do you think it would go down sans speed with CIS in the Op scenario? What moves happen? What order?

You seem to be trying to use CIS as some kind of means to get around a basic thing like "they will remember what their powers are and to use them". None of them are explicitly idiots or incompetent as part of their concepts. There is nothing from that to claim they will fight like dolts or intentionally hobble themselves in the face of something like that.


Hulk would end up the guy everyone eventually unites to calm down.

Or Hulk would end up the guy J'onn puts to sleep with mind powers, as opposed to just sort of standing there doing nothing while Hulk apparently beats the crap out of various members of the JLA.

Melchior
05-09-2014, 09:32 AM
Well, in character, I definitely see Flash as the one to ask for an explanation in the middle of a fight. Superman might as well, but between Hulk and Thor, I think he will be too busy for actual discussion.

The question is which Avenger is going to slow down enough to start trying to answer and then explain everything. Once Flash gets a good read on the Avengers, it will probably be a straightforward "Hey, J'onn! Call everybody off, this is just a big misunderstanding!"

Surtur
05-09-2014, 10:09 AM
I don't really think so. Without speed, the scenario I proposed would only require them to act with CIS. Superman/etc would use more powers and the fight would be more exhaustive.

Superman using "more powers" as you put it isn't exactly a good thing, since that basically just means heat vision and super breath. The HV being especially potent, it wouldn't really make it more exhausting.


and a lot more detailed but the scenario would more or less work out the same when speed is altogether removed, and CIS is in play.

You are confusing character traits with bad writing. In character, Superman is a nice guy, but he was not traumatized by the very concept of super speed as a child..thus leading him to develop emotional blocks that prevent him from using his speed. He is also more or less a genius by real world standards, so he doesn't exactly lack the mental capacity to understand things like "being faster then someone is a huge advantage in combat situations". Personality wise, he is anti killing, not anti super speed.


Hulk would end up the guy everyone eventually unites to calm down.

To be honest, I'm pretty sure just a duo of Superman and J'onn working together could take him down. You don't need every single person in the league. I say that if you want to assume that Superman and J'onn are not actually attempting to full on kill Hulk, since I'm not exactly sure what type of scenario is supposed to be going down. But in a normal rumble JLU Supes would just space toss Hulk before he can react.


How do you think it would go down sans speed with CIS in the Op scenario? What moves happen? What order?

If anyone on the DC side decides they are going to remember their super speed...the Avengers aren't really going to win here.

Captain Smith
05-10-2014, 03:47 PM
Character - shmacharter. Using powers wisely - only Thor is relevant.

Flash alone takes out Hawkeye, AntMan, BP, CA. Hulk can be easily hoisted into orbit by Supes or Stewart. Probably IM can't stand against J'onn. I see these ending quickly. Can WW stall Thor a bit till Supes and Stewart get back - sure and then with a fight they take him.

Batman and Hawkgirl can go to Starbucks and chat - they are irrelevant. Maybe they can call Aquaman and tell him about the fight.

Surtur
05-10-2014, 04:35 PM
Batman totally makes Hawkgirl pay for his coffee at Starbucks.

Guy1
05-10-2014, 05:07 PM
Batman totally makes Hawkgirl pay for his coffee at Starbucks.

Actually Hawkgirl's mace is anti-magic, so if she hands it to Wondy or Flash at the start of the fight, Thor could go down fast.

Alan2099
05-10-2014, 05:43 PM
Actually Hawkgirl's mace is anti-magic, so if she hands it to Wondy or Flash at the start of the fight, Thor could go down fast.

Except there's no reason she would do so or even know that Thor is magic to begin with.

Guy1
05-10-2014, 05:49 PM
Except there's no reason she would do so or even know that Thor is magic to begin with.

Is named Thor, flies, has a tricked out hammer...yeah, she might suspect it. If they do clash, I think the anti-magic Mace might have an advantage over the magic Hammer. Her weapon was about the only thing that affected Chaos Grundy, so it hits pretty dang hard.

MorphyVSFischer
05-10-2014, 05:54 PM
Except there's no reason she would do so or even know that Thor is magic to begin with.

Its common knowledge that thor is a norse god.

Hazard
05-10-2014, 05:56 PM
If they do clash, she has the advantage over Thor's magic.

Common knowledge still applies.

That said, Thor is still massively stronger, not to mention durable (the guy takes an extended beating from Abomination and pretty much shrugs it off); so not really as much of an advantage as it may seem.

Alan2099
05-10-2014, 06:01 PM
Go back and read the first post again.

Pendaran
05-10-2014, 06:01 PM
Hawkgirl knowing to use her mace on Thor or not doesn't really prevent most of the team getting blitzed out, and such as don't getting put to sleep. It's largely moot.

Hazard
05-10-2014, 06:12 PM
Go back and read the first post again.

Meh, most of what I said still applies.

That said, I'm surprised you still haven't equalized the speed. Seems to me, that's what you were going for with that OP.

Pendaran
05-10-2014, 06:12 PM
With that said, it's worth noting that magic arguably doesn't exist in the EMH-universe.

Bear with me for a moment on that one.

So, especially post the Thor movie, where it almost reached a point that the characters would almost look at the screen directly, stop the movie and go "don't worry audience! we're not really gods, and there's no such thing as magic!" It's one of the few things I absolutely hate about a Marvel Cinematic Universe I otherwise really groove on (and cringe to think what Doctor Strange is going to look like).

They then tried to parallel that in the cartoon some, where Iron Man would talk about how the Asgardians are just advanced otherdimensional beings with superscience we don't quite get yet.

"Tony was probably talking out his ass and being arrogant!" And.. mayyyybe.

But then they'd do things to back that like the episode with Marvel Dracula, where Tony insisting vampires was all just biotech was proven to be right, as he generally went on about there being no such thing as magic.

Pendaran
05-10-2014, 06:14 PM
Meh, most of what I said still applies.

That said, I'm surprised you still haven't equalized the speed. Seems to me, that's what you were going for with that OP.

That would then be called "the JLA, but with a Flash who can't do anything".

Hazard
05-10-2014, 06:16 PM
That would then be called "the JLA, but with a Flash who can't do anything".

Well, the guy usually does everything. I'd say he deserves a rest every now and then :)

Surtur
05-10-2014, 06:17 PM
You kind of see how far we're having to reach here to come up with a plausible scenario for the Avengers to win..it's going to require either certain members have to flat out sit out of this fight, or they all forget their powers.

MorphyVSFischer
05-10-2014, 06:21 PM
Go back and read the first post again.

Why don't you describe how you want the fight to go, then we'll agree with you, since you seem to be bending over backwards to justify something or another?

StupidMoniker
05-10-2014, 07:42 PM
Just to note, Flash actually speedblitzes in the show, like when he takes out everyone on the Watchtower when troops took it over.

Daenarys Stormborn
05-11-2014, 03:56 PM
Superman using "more powers" as you put it isn't exactly a good thing, since that basically just means heat vision and super breath. The HV being especially potent, it wouldn't really make it more exhausting.


Heat vision was never used in a wide scope that would be able to hit multiple people. And you're forgetting it can be deflected. Super Breath is tougher, but if he's using it someone on the avengers is using something else.


You are confusing character traits with bad writing. In character, Superman is a nice guy, but he was not traumatized by the very concept of super speed as a child..thus leading him to develop emotional blocks that prevent him from using his speed. He is also more or less a genius by real world standards, so he doesn't exactly lack the mental capacity to understand things like "being faster then someone is a huge advantage in combat situations". Personality wise, he is anti killing, not anti super speed.

You're forgetting that I specified a speed-removed (i.e. no one is using speed + CIS) scenario so there wouldn't be any blitzing. In a scenario with speed in play, Animated Superman might very well use it. However, his reaction speed feats are few and far between and his uses of speed in combat are like, what, two showing in 100 episodes. Doesn't seem like its very IC at all for him. What instance did he even use Super-speed reactions in the show in and outside combat? If he's done it a bunch of times I agree with you, but if it's only against a world ending threat like Darkseid...the avengers are not him. On the other hand, Flash and Wondwerwoman would definitely use their speeds to some degree.

To be honest, I'm pretty sure just a duo of Superman and J'onn working together could take him down. You don't need every single person in the league. I say that if you want to assume that Superman and J'onn are not actually attempting to full on kill Hulk, since I'm not exactly sure what type of scenario is supposed to be going down. But in a normal rumble JLU Supes would just space toss Hulk before he can react.

I agree in a blood-lusted scenario were they care not about being heroes that they would be all that is necessary. Superman has the speed and Jonn has the mind whammy that Hulk has shown himself to be vulnerable to against Enchantress- Thor too.

If anyone on the DC side decides they are going to remember their super speed...the Avengers aren't really going to win here.

Hold on, do you think Wonderwoman by herself could solo EMH Avengers? In Flash' case he would kill them all, but he'd lose himself to the speed force like against Luthoriac.


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Surtur
05-11-2014, 04:34 PM
Heat vision was never used in a wide scope that would be able to hit multiple people. And you're forgetting it can be deflected. Super Breath is tougher, but if he's using it someone on the avengers is using something else.


Okay, but he doesn't need to use it on multiple people at once. He has super speed.


You're forgetting that I specified a speed-removed (i.e. no one is using speed + CIS)

So in other words, The Avengers need the League to ask some of their members to sit this one out so they have a fair fight, since Flashes entire thing is speed. You aren't just handicapping a character here, you are basically removing someones powers entirely.


In a scenario with speed in play, Animated Superman might very well use it. However, his reaction speed feats are few and far between and his uses of speed in combat are like, what, two showing in 100 episodes. Doesn't seem like its very IC at all for him. What instance did he even use Super-speed reactions in the show in and outside combat? If he's done it a bunch of times I agree with you, but if it's only against a world ending threat like Darkseid...the avengers are not him. On the other hand, Flash and Wondwerwoman would definitely use their speeds to some degree.

He uses his speed a variety of times for fast movement that isn't just "fly in a straight line" so we know he can do and we know he is at least a bullet timer..which is kind of all we need to know. So, Superman won't use his speed, but Wonder Woman..will? Why? She uses it more? No she doesn't. He can't just fly at super speed, he can move his arms and legs that way.

Again you confuse something in character for something needed to suit the plot. What about his character forbids speed? What specifically about his personality makes it so he won't use his speed? There is nothing. Either you feel the guy can build super powered robots and all this goodness, but still lacks the capacity to deduce "speed can be an advantage" or..he just rarely uses it because that is what needs to happen to keep the episodes running smoothly. Which do you feel is more likely to be the case?

Captain Smith
05-12-2014, 10:25 AM
Speed removal threads are, in general, a waste of time. Also, heat vision can be deflected? Well, how do you do that? Do you expect Supes to look away from you at a significant distance and then slowly sweep the beam towards you? No, he looks at you and fires a speed of light beam. How you gonna deflect that?

If you want the Avengers to win, specify that the JLA has been knocked out and unconscious.

Slade1
05-12-2014, 10:28 AM
Speed removal threads are, in general, a waste of time. Also, heat vision can be deflected? Well, how do you do that? Do you expect Supes to look away from you at a significant distance and then slowly sweep the beam towards you? No, he looks at you and fires a speed of light beam. How you gonna deflect that?

If you want the Avengers to win, specify that the JLA has been knocked out and unconscious.

I think he wants the fight to be even but removing speed is a big clincher. Flash has now been reduced to a random guy in red spandex.