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Acecool
05-08-2014, 11:45 PM
Arena fight.

Superman from the Justice League the animated series v.

Thor from Avengers Earth Mightiest Heroes.

Basara
05-09-2014, 12:57 AM
Super speed, heat vision, and much better strength feats make this an easy win for DCAU Superman.

big_adventure
05-09-2014, 04:14 AM
Super speed, heat vision, and much better strength feats make this an easy win for DCAU Superman.

How much super speed does he really have? Because his HV isn't scratching EMH Thor, and I don't recall DCAU Superman taking anything like the damage Thor can dish out when pissed and ready to blow shit up.

Basara
05-09-2014, 04:50 AM
How much super speed does he really have? Because his HV isn't scratching EMH Thor, and I don't recall DCAU Superman taking anything like the damage Thor can dish out when pissed and ready to blow shit up.

Seriously? Heat vision that can give Doomsday an instant lobotomy isn't scratching EMH Thor? The same Superman that takes hits from a Mongul whom can murder Wonder Woman, fight Doomsday in a volcano, take hits Captain Marvel that destroys buildings in a single punch and getting up without a scratch isn't durable enough to handle Thor's damage? It's the other way around. DCAU Superman is demonstrably stronger and more durable than EMH Thor.

Plus Superman is fast enough to be behind Thor before Thor even realizes Superman has moved. It was a favorite trick of his in Superman TAS. He also at one time matched Flash in a foot race (though Flash did get faster in Justice League). Superman's not light speed, but still much, much, much faster than Thor can keep track of.

This battle must have popped up roughly 20 times on the old board and the general response was always the same: DCAU Superman is too much for EMH Thor because a) Thor can't touch Superman due to his super speed, b) Thor can't prevent a heat vision lobotomy, and c) Thor doesn't have strength and durability feats as good as Superman's.

big_adventure
05-09-2014, 05:22 AM
Seriously? Heat vision that can give Doomsday an instant lobotomy isn't scratching EMH Thor? The same Superman that takes hits from a Mongul whom can murder Wonder Woman, fight Doomsday in a volcano, take hits Captain Marvel that destroys buildings in a single punch and getting up without a scratch isn't durable enough to handle Thor's damage? It's the other way around. DCAU Superman is demonstrably stronger and more durable than EMH Thor.

Plus Superman is fast enough to be behind Thor before Thor even realizes Superman has moved. It was a favorite trick of his in Superman TAS. He also at one time matched Flash in a foot race (though Flash did get faster in Justice League). Superman's not light speed, but still much, much, much faster than Thor can keep track of.

This battle must have popped up roughly 20 times on the old board and the general response was always the same: DCAU Superman is too much for EMH Thor because a) Thor can't touch Superman due to his super speed, b) Thor can't prevent a heat vision lobotomy, and c) Thor doesn't have strength and durability feats as good as Superman's.

I'm fine with that about the speed - I was asking, not insulting or arguing. And no, from what I've seen (please note the emphasis), DCAU Superman can't just no-sell Thor, who one-shotted Brooklyn into a crater with an AoE - something a dozen orders of magnitude over knocking over a building. If Thor can't use it thanks to speed, that's totally fine - I have no horse in this race. When one asks "how much superspeed does he have", one might really be simply asking said question, and not, I dunno, challenging the person who claimed it was so.

Slade1
05-09-2014, 05:48 AM
From what I've seen I'd say Superman wins but I haven't watched a lot of either show.

Gorthaur
05-09-2014, 06:12 AM
There's no doubt Superman is faster than Thor: He catches bullets fired from submachine guns, he dodges blows from weaker opponents and is several meters away when they realize he's gone. He charges into slower bricks like a speeding, well, bullet.

He doesn't, however, ever operate at a level of sustained superspeed that would allow him to take out opponents in his own strength class or above before they can retaliate. Which makes sense: after all, moving your entire body mass at superspeed to attack a 500 pound invulnerable man requires way more energy than simply moving your hands to catch low-weight bullets. Based on Superman's feats, he has the reserves to do the latter all day long (or at least, long enough for a clip to run empty), and the former... in a few one-second bursts to help out in a really tough fight.

DCAU Clark isn't taking EMH Thor out in a blitz.

Basara
05-09-2014, 06:37 AM
I'm fine with that about the speed - I was asking, not insulting or arguing. And no, from what I've seen (please note the emphasis), DCAU Superman can't just no-sell Thor, who one-shotted Brooklyn into a crater with an AoE - something a dozen orders of magnitude over knocking over a building. If Thor can't use it thanks to speed, that's totally fine - I have no horse in this race. When one asks "how much superspeed does he have", one might really be simply asking said question, and not, I dunno, challenging the person who claimed it was so.

Ok, I'll grant that I came on a little bit hard. It was the heat vision comment about it not being able to hurt Thor when the truth is there are some great showings for Superman's heat vision being extremely powerful (less than 3 second lobotomy on Doomsday, burning Mongul, etc.). Thor is not more durable than either of those two.

No, I don't think Superman can no sell Thor's crater creating attack, but I doubt it's knocking Superman out either. After all, that attack alone didn't knock out Graviton either.

None of this actually matters though, because Superman moves in a blur compared with Thor and can knock Thor into the arena wall before Thor can lift his hammer and summon that attack. Mere seconds later, Thor would be a vegetable due to a heat vision lobotomy.

byc
05-09-2014, 08:16 AM
I'm fine with that about the speed - I was asking, not insulting or arguing. And no, from what I've seen (please note the emphasis), DCAU Superman can't just no-sell Thor, who one-shotted Brooklyn into a crater with an AoE - something a dozen orders of magnitude over knocking over a building. If Thor can't use it thanks to speed, that's totally fine - I have no horse in this race. When one asks "how much superspeed does he have", one might really be simply asking said question, and not, I dunno, challenging the person who claimed it was so.

His godblast or whatever it was in the 2nd episode against Graviton didn't make Brooklyn into a crater. The wide shot showed like the entire area destroyed, but the close view showed Graviton in the crater, which is only about 10 feet wide.

He's not going to be able to use it against Superman. Far too fast to hit him, plus Superman probably will interrupt the thing.

byc
05-09-2014, 08:41 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyM7LsOXQDk

6:20 is when Avengers gather around the crater where Graviton is.

Hazard
05-09-2014, 09:31 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyM7LsOXQDk

6:20 is when Avengers gather around the crater where Graviton is.

That's a effect of the scale. You can even see Giant Hank is barely twice of everyone else's size.

You really can't argue it didn't leave a gigantic crater when we did, in fact, see it leave a gigantic crater.


No, I don't think Superman can no sell Thor's crater creating attack, but I doubt it's knocking Superman out either. After all, that attack alone didn't knock out Graviton either.

Not getting knocked out by an attack of that magnitude is Graviton's feat, not Supermans'.


As an aside, Thor has also hit a supposedly city busting blast with his hammer in order to send it right back to the ship that launched it.

And the whole slowing down the island from falling.

byc
05-09-2014, 10:46 AM
That's a effect of the scale. You can even see Giant Hank is barely twice of everyone else's size.

You really can't argue it didn't leave a gigantic crater when we did, in fact, see it leave a gigantic crater.


So you would call the crater that Graviton is in to be the size of Brooklyn? It's clearly not. It's not even as large as the street.

Hazard
05-09-2014, 11:07 AM
So you would call the crater that Graviton is in to be the size of Brooklyn? It's clearly not. It's not even as large as the street.

Perspective. You cannot deny the size of the crater when you can see it in the video you linked.

big_adventure
05-09-2014, 11:16 AM
So you would call the crater that Graviton is in to be the size of Brooklyn? It's clearly not. It's not even as large as the street.

See, what you are doing here is choosing the clearly scale challenged view instead of the clear massive giant scale image, since you want your point to pass. And the blast is clearly Brooklyn Destroying when it shows in the wide angle. So, I'm sticking with that.

moonknight11
05-09-2014, 12:43 PM
It seems to be the only advantage supes has is speed.

byc
05-09-2014, 12:49 PM
See, what you are doing here is choosing the clearly scale challenged view instead of the clear massive giant scale image, since you want your point to pass. And the blast is clearly Brooklyn Destroying when it shows in the wide angle. So, I'm sticking with that.

That perspective is exactly what it was. It was a large hole in the ground, but that hole wasn't the size of Brooklyn. If that 2nd scene wasn't there, then I was say Thor's blast definitely destroyed Brooklyn.

You can choose the other angle if you want, but the other view showed much much less destruction. Depending on how one wants to interpret that scene, it shows Thor's precision in only hitting Graviton and the immediate areas, instead of an entire city to defeat a villain.

One shot showed a city sized hole. The other showed only street-wide hole. So which is it?

It's actually a moot point on this battle, because Thor won't get to charge up the blast against Superman. But I'm still interested to see how the boards and mods want to rule it.

byc
05-09-2014, 12:50 PM
It seems to be the only advantage supes has is speed.

That's Flash's only advantage over everybody else too :)

Slade1
05-09-2014, 12:58 PM
Watching that video, the crater is definetely huge. Maybe not as large as Brooklyn but pretty close to it.

LOL at Graviton losing because of an ant bite.

Hazard
05-09-2014, 12:59 PM
One shot showed a city sized hole. The other showed only street-wide hole. So which is it?


The shot that does not use a perspective that screws size.

Seriously. An overhead perspective is always better for judging area size.

byc
05-09-2014, 01:50 PM
The shot that does not use a perspective that screws size.

Seriously. An overhead perspective is always better for judging area size.

I'm okay with this as long as people agree millions died like in MoS. And that Thor knowingly did it anyways.

Hazard
05-09-2014, 03:24 PM
So this is a character bias thing then?

big_adventure
05-09-2014, 03:55 PM
I'm okay with this as long as people agree millions died like in MoS. And that Thor knowingly did it anyways.

I mean, the population of any given comic universe Earth can't be above a few hundred thousand, if you want to be all "there's consequences to all this destruction, you know!" Such things are typically ignored. Imagine if we took DBZ damage seriously - there'd be like 5 normal humans left on the planet by the time Cell and Trunks face off. In Marvel? My god man - a little non-crossover 3 issue event will send tsunamis that smash both sides of the Atlantic - the rebuild is somehow complete between issues.

Surtur
05-09-2014, 04:21 PM
Superman is faster then Thor and has heat vision that can definitely hurt someone with the durability that animated Thor has shown. So, not seeing how Thor wins this. Bullet timer+heat vision= win. Simple as that. Don't try to say Thor is so much more massively durable then people like Doomsday and Darkseid, because that wouldn't even begin to make sense. Not seeing how Thor wins here unless we just play the same game of "Superman forgets to use his speed" and such.

To be clear, I'm not saying Supes kills Thor in the blink of an eye or anything. But yeah, the speed advantage and the heat vision kind of seal the deal here.

Deathstroke the Terminator
05-09-2014, 04:53 PM
I say Supes wins after a tough fight with his superior powerset.

Surtur
05-09-2014, 07:07 PM
I say Supes wins after a tough fight with his superior powerset.

Superior powerset isn't exactly correct, it depends on how you look at it. EMH Thor can dish out a crazy amount of area effect damage far exceeding JLU Supes via his hammer, the only problem is the time it takes him to actually use that kind of move. It's really the speed here that tips the balance.

Gorthaur
05-09-2014, 09:01 PM
One shot showed a city sized hole. The other showed only street-wide hole. So which is it?
And the very next shot clearly shows that the smaller, street-wide hole is located within a large, grey, smoking waste, i.e. the large hole from the first shot. I mean, really, come on.

BitVyper
05-09-2014, 09:04 PM
Imagine if we took DBZ damage seriously

To be fair, DBZ actually generally does this. It's why the characters generally find huge uninhabited areas to fight in (and I'll never understand why people have a hard time believing these exist; do they think the real world doesn't have them?), so that stuff like Gero taking out half a city doesn't happen. We even specifically saw just the aftershocks of Goku's SS3 transformation dropping buildings on people, and the entire human population DID die in the Buu saga. DBZ plays the consequences of super powered fights pretty straight.

Gorthaur
05-09-2014, 09:13 PM
To be clear, what Thor destroys in that blast is a large shipping bay that appeared to be empty at the time. Not a residential neighborhood.

Acecool
05-09-2014, 09:27 PM
Superman is faster then Thor and has heat vision that can definitely hurt someone with the durability that animated Thor has shown. So, not seeing how Thor wins this. Bullet timer+heat vision= win. Simple as that. Don't try to say Thor is so much more massively durable then people like Doomsday and Darkseid, because that wouldn't even begin to make sense. Not seeing how Thor wins here unless we just play the same game of "Superman forgets to use his speed" and such.

To be clear, I'm not saying Supes kills Thor in the blink of an eye or anything. But yeah, the speed advantage and the heat vision kind of seal the deal here.

Which episode was the bullet timing in? The majority of the episodes I've seen only demonstrated superman's traveling speed.

Also where did it show doomsday and darkseid's durability in the animated series? The only showing of darkseid's durability is when he fought superman who went all out punching him through buildings which dazed him. Doomsday IIRC was about to survive in a volcano. While I cannot recall much of the doomsday episodes, I remember my general feeling was that he was very underwhelming. Thor had an island dropped on him and came out without a scratch which is many times higher magnitude of durability than every single building in metropolis.

As for the heat vision advantage, IIRC superman had to hit doomsday with his heat vision for a few seconds. It wasn't an instant lobotomy.


[Edit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wcpO317Sq8
As I was saying, underwhelming. Doomsday did not have a great showing for durability.

Gorthaur
05-09-2014, 09:46 PM
Which episode was the bullet timing in? The majority of the episodes I've seen only demonstrated superman's traveling speed. The Last Son of Krypton, Part 3. Happens about halfway through the episode.

Acecool
05-09-2014, 10:03 PM
The Last Son of Krypton, Part 3. Happens about halfway through the episode.

Thanks I really appreciate it.

Here is the clip I think you are talking about.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD64hGrb06Y

I feel safe in saying that that is not bullet timing.

Gorthaur
05-09-2014, 10:12 PM
No, that's not it. However, I did find the clip I was talking about on YouTube:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eNjXaxo36I

Acecool
05-09-2014, 10:28 PM
No, that's not it. However, I did find the clip I was talking about on YouTube:


That is definitely bullet timing.

Acecool
05-09-2014, 10:48 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9ECL1ybNXo

Thor's speed is not as great as superman's, but he is not exactly slow. Check out knocking away Ultron's blast and knocking baron Zemo's blast.

My point is that while Superman's speed is probably greater than Thor's, in this case I don't think it is determinative and that this fight has weight on both sides.

Gorthaur
05-10-2014, 01:59 AM
Oh, I agree, and I personally think Thor's insane damage output and durability (he survived a terminal velocity fall, landing under a 500 ton Vision, with no apparent injury) put Superman in the underdog position. But I'll give credit where it's due, and he does have the clear edge in speed.

Ite
05-10-2014, 06:07 AM
Thor wins.

Surtur
05-10-2014, 10:07 AM
Also where did it show doomsday and darkseid's durability in the animated series? The only showing of darkseid's durability is when he fought superman who went all out punching him through buildings which dazed him. Doomsday IIRC was about to survive in a volcano. While I cannot recall much of the doomsday episodes, I remember my general feeling was that he was very underwhelming. Thor had an island dropped on him and came out without a scratch which is many times higher magnitude of durability than every single building in metropolis.

Doomsday and Superman threw down, the end effect from slugging each other is Doomsday wasn't even impressed, while Supes had clearly been feeling the hits a lot more. I'm not sure how you feel that doesn't indicate Doomsday being tougher then Superman. Darkseid likewise before his upgrade gets slugged once in the face by Supes, hard. He isn't even sent flying back, etc. I'm not saying Darkseid specifically had greater durability until his upgrade, but it's hard to see how you could feel Superman and Doomsday were all around about equal in toughness.


As for the heat vision advantage, IIRC superman had to hit doomsday with his heat vision for a few seconds. It wasn't an instant lobotomy.

Whereas Thor is slower then Superman and doesn't have a thing that kill him in a few seconds.

See, the thing is, Thor had over 50 plus episodes full of feats. He wasn't more or less on the level of durability you seem to feel. Doomsday entire thing? Was "fights evil Supes and JL" and then "Fights Superman". Doomsday physically messes up Superman a lot more then anyone who was more or less his equal did. Their fight certainly implied Doomsday was the stronger/tougher of the two. That is why he had to trap him in a volcano..because he couldn't actually KO him.

He certainly won't just be able to blur over and snap Thor's neck, but the speed is kind of hard to get around. He hasn't just caught bullets. He has shown, at times, the whole blurring at super speed thing and not just in a straight line or something. So, he has shown he can overwhelm an opponent with his speed when he chooses to do so, and he does this also in subtle ways in other fights as well. It really is the epitome of PIS in some cases. When he fought Captain Atom he gets punched in the face a lot, but you can clearly see at one point he more or less goes "enough is enough" and uses his speed to easily dodge Captain Atom's hit's. But then..forgets he can do that a second later. It almost makes one have the disturbing thought of "Maybe he just gets off on being hit". Al kidding aside though there is actually that one scene where Superman is training with GL and purposely gets hit by his construct and is saying all "every hit I take is one they don't have to" and on paper that seems like he is trying to be nice and protect them, but who knows..

Gorthaur
05-10-2014, 12:38 PM
It really is the epitome of PIS in some cases. When he fought Captain Atom he gets punched in the face a lot, but you can clearly see at one point he more or less goes "enough is enough" and uses his speed to easily dodge Captain Atom's hit's. But then..forgets he can do that a second later. It almost makes one have the disturbing thought of "Maybe he just gets off on being hit".

Or, he doesn't have infinite reserves to call upon, and therefore can't expend infinite amounts of energy on things like superspeed or heat vision.

Surtur
05-10-2014, 02:28 PM
Or, he doesn't have infinite reserves to call upon, and therefore can't expend infinite amounts of energy on things like superspeed or heat vision.

Yeah. but if you do have a finite amount of reserves, you'd think then you'd just want to take people down as quickly as possible. It is not as if he is exactly going to have to being using his speed for a long time here.

MorphyVSFischer
05-10-2014, 04:12 PM
Thor wins.

Nope, you're wrong.

Surtur
05-10-2014, 04:31 PM
No he is right Thor totally DOES win...at a "who has the best hair" contest. Though yeah, he dies against JLU Supes in a fight of course. But still...prettier hair and such things, so Thor can walk out of the arena with his head held high. Wait I said he dies so how is he walking? Well, you see necromancy has now been performed on Thor, why? No reason to let such great hair go to waste.

Gorthaur
05-10-2014, 11:38 PM
Yeah. but if you do have a finite amount of reserves, you'd think then you'd just want to take people down as quickly as possible. It is not as if he is exactly going to have to being using his speed for a long time here.

To beat Thor without giving him a chance to retaliate, Clark would still have to use it for longer than he's ever actually shown himself capable of. Can he take the initiative and land the first few blows in the fight? Sure. Can he dish out enough damage to take out Mr. "Tanks 500 Tons At Terminal Velocity" in that time? ...Nnaaww.

Pendaran
05-11-2014, 01:48 AM
To talk about this as Clark having limited superspeed reserves and it not just being standard speedster PIS of the kind where they'll show they have superspeed, then totally forget they just showed that a second ago, has using superspeed ever actually tired JLU Superman out? Has he ever made any kind of reference to this limited speed reserves thing?

StupidMoniker
05-11-2014, 01:48 AM
What stops him from lobotomizing Thor like he did to Doomsday?

big_adventure
05-11-2014, 02:33 AM
What stops him from lobotomizing Thor like he did to Doomsday?

That, in particular, required DD to be still for several seconds, didn't it? So stopping it is Thor, you know, moving.

Gorthaur
05-11-2014, 02:40 AM
To talk about this as Clark having limited superspeed reserves and it not just being standard speedster PIS of the kind where they'll show they have superspeed, then totally forget they just showed that a second ago, has using superspeed ever actually tired JLU Superman out? Has he ever made any kind of reference to this limited speed reserves thing?
Does he really need to specifically state that using up more energy makes him more tired? Moving fast requires more energy than moving slowly for the same reason that lifting a large weight requires more energy than lifting a small weight. When you start to run out of energy due to some taxing activity, you become tired - that's what the word means.

PIS is what we call it when a character forgets to use abilities that they've been previously, consistently, shown to have. In DCAU Superman's case, sustained superspeed combat isn't among those abilities. What he has shown is the ability to use it in short bursts, which I'm more than happy to grant him in a Khazan battle, but saying that he can slip into that state for the duration of a prolonged battle is granting him a higher power output than he has demonstrated.

Pendaran
05-11-2014, 03:08 AM
Does he really need to specifically state that using up more energy makes him more tired? Moving fast requires more energy than moving slowly for the same reason that lifting a large weight requires more energy than lifting a small weight. When you start to run out of energy due to some taxing activity, you become tired - that's what the word means.

Has he at least shown that using his superspeed demonstrably taxes him? If not, this isn't a thing that exists.



PIS is what we call it when a character forgets to use abilities that they've been previously, consistently, shown to have. In DCAU Superman's case, sustained superspeed combat isn't among those abilities. What he has shown is the ability to use it in short bursts, which I'm more than happy to grant him in a Khazan battle, but saying that he can slip into that state for the duration of a prolonged battle is granting him a higher power output than he has demonstrated.

If he's shown that he has superspeed to some particular level, and using it has never especially strained or tired him, then that comes off like nothing but pretty typical forgetting to then use the power he just showed he can use.

If you have to create a reason for why he doesn't that has never come up even from a single reference, demonstration, something, that's a guy, forgetting his powers, for the plot.

big_adventure
05-11-2014, 03:13 AM
If you have to create a reason for why he doesn't that has never come up even from a single reference, demonstration, something, that's a guy, forgetting his powers, for the plot.

If only there were a convenient three-letter acronym for that...

Gorthaur
05-11-2014, 04:05 AM
Has he at least shown that using his superspeed demonstrably taxes him? If not, this isn't a thing that exists.

Uh, yes. Superman is a living battery powered by the Sun. Using any of his superhuman abilities expends that power, and absent of sunlight, using any of said powers will gradually cause him to run out completely. His energy reserves aren't limitless. We've seen Superman get tired.

If he's shown that he has superspeed to some particular level, and using it has never especially strained or tired him, then that comes off like nothing but pretty typical forgetting to then use the power he just showed he can use.

We have also, as it turns out, even seen Superman specifically get tired out by using his speed: for instance, after putting out Darkseid's nascent firepit in "Apokolips Now, Part 2," in which he spends thirty seconds or so burrowing through the earth while spinning at superspeed. It's probably the best example of the sort of sustained superspeed that I keep calling for feats of, and it leaves Superman so wiped that he needs to catch his breath on his knees.

If you have to create a reason for why he doesn't that has never come up even from a single reference, demonstration, something, that's a guy, forgetting his powers, for the plot.

I don't need to "create" a reason to assume that the limits of a character's power are within the scale and scope of the feats they've demonstrated, and power output and energy reserves are both aspects of that. If I bench press an X amount of weight, it still doesn't count as a feat for being able to bench press that same weight an infinite number of times, or as fast as I can extend my arms empty-handed. Similarly, you can't take my ability to run across a street as evidence of an ability to run a 5k race, or complete a Marathon.

Of course, if we do it your way, Thor has demonstrated the ability to have lightning target and strike his enemies without his conscious attention, so extrapolating from that, he can just blanket the arena in a permanent magi-electrical storm that constantly and automatically homes in on Superman.

Pendaran
05-11-2014, 04:49 AM
Uh, yes. Superman is a living battery powered by the Sun. Using any of his superhuman abilities expends that power, and absent of sunlight, using any of said powers will gradually cause him to run out completely. His energy reserves aren't limitless. We've seen Superman get tired.

At best you are now arguing that Superman can only use any his powers to any sustained level when in sunlight. That doesn't bear out with.. Superman, really. Let me be more specific. Superman uses superspeed one off. Does this actually show him as then somehow strained by it? You're now arguing that everything from his strength to durability is on such an incredibly finite timer that it should function as one off as his superspeed, for that to be the reason and make any consistent sense. You would otherwise have to argue that somehow his superspeed is less powered by the sun than everything else about him to get used up so comparatively quickly or be so draining. And again, does anything ever show that?


We have also, as it turns out, even seen Superman specifically get tired out by using his speed: for instance, after putting out Darkseid's nascent firepit in "Apokolips Now, Part 2," in which he spends thirty seconds or so burrowing through the earth while spinning at superspeed. It's probably the best example of the sort of sustained superspeed that I keep calling for feats of, and it leaves Superman so wiped that he needs to catch his breath on his knees.

That's a poor example. He digs multiple deep tunnels, forcing his entire body, through tons and tons of stone again and again and again, for 50 seconds or so, using his entire body as a human drill to force himself through it. That's a vastly more involved effort than, say, throwing punches. Using his heat vision, what have you.

If that's what it takes to tire him out, sustained uses of superspeed well beneath that should barely be taxing at all.



Of course, if we do it your way, Thor has demonstrated the ability to have lightning target and strike his enemies without his conscious attention, so extrapolating from that, he can just blanket the arena in a permanent magi-electrical storm that constantly and automatically homes in on Superman.

If Thor has to actually will a storm into being, will the lightning generation to start, then why would he get to do that before the attacks start happening, barring speed feats for Thor?

Surtur
05-11-2014, 07:40 AM
The thing is, even if speed DOES tax him? He's going to have put Thor down long before that ever happens. It's not like Superman is going to have to sit there and carry on a speedblitz for 10 minutes straight. So we essentially still come down to the fact of : Thor ain't winning unless Supes forgets his speed. It just has to be accepted, Avengers Thor just isn't beating him. Maybe if the show had not been cancelled we'd of gotten more feats for Thor, maybe some speed feats, but as is? He can't win. It's not a knock him, it's just the reality of "speed being an advantage in combat" and such.

byc
05-11-2014, 07:45 AM
The thing is, even if speed DOES tax him? He's going to have put Thor down long before that ever happens. It's not like Superman is going to have to sit there and carry on a speedblitz for 10 minutes straight. So we essentially still come down to the fact of : Thor ain't winning unless Supes forgets his speed. It just has to be accepted, Avengers Thor just isn't beating him. Maybe if the show had not been cancelled we'd of gotten more feats for Thor, maybe some speed feats, but as is? He can't win. It's not a knock him, it's just the reality of "speed being an advantage in combat" and such.

The funny thing is post-Crisis Superman wins via speed as well over 616 Thor.

Gorthaur
05-11-2014, 10:23 AM
At best you are now arguing that Superman can only use any his powers to any sustained level when in sunlight.

No. You're equivocating on the meaning of "sustainable" to create a strawman argument. The above argument may or may not be true depending on what level of power he's sustaining.


That doesn't bear out with.. Superman, really. Let me be more specific. Superman uses superspeed one off. Does this actually show him as then somehow strained by it? You're now arguing that everything from his strength to durability is on such an incredibly finite timer that it should function as one off as his superspeed, for that to be the reason and make any consistent sense. You would otherwise have to argue that somehow his superspeed is less powered by the sun than everything else about him to get used up so comparatively quickly or be so draining. And again, does anything ever show that?

His powers don't have to be on an "incredibly finite" timer, just on a timer. What I'm arguing is that while even DCAU Superman's power reserves are relatively vast, they can be exhausted, and moving super fast would also drain them super fast, because of, you know, physics: a faster rate of work = more power (or power drain). I mean, it's not like this is applying advanced real life calcs where they don't belong, it's as naive physics as physics comes.


That's a poor example. He digs multiple deep tunnels, forcing his entire body, through tons and tons of stone again and again and again, for 50 seconds or so, using his entire body as a human drill to force himself through it. That's a vastly more involved effort than, say, throwing punches. Using his heat vision, what have you.

Not really. Ocean floor sediment and bedrock are made of substantially weaker materials than Superman, or the people capable of giving him an even fight. Also, spinning in one direction doesn't require you to expend energy on countering the forces you yourself are generating, as you would in a combat situation that might require you to, for example, throw your weight in one direction for an attack, and then dodge in another direction. I mean, think about it: if you're flying at superspeed and come to an instantaneous stop, you're essentially subjecting yourself to the same abrupt deceleration as you would hitting an immovable, indestructible wall, except that you don't even have the wall doing the work for you. You could try to get around it by slowing the rate of deceleration, but the more you do that, the less you're actually using your superspeed. You could try only using your speed with only, say, your hands, which have much less mass and which your Kryptonian body can very easily accelerate and decelerate to catching bullets and the like with no ill effects (as Superman does in the earlier clip), but then, for the same reason, you're probably not really hurting someone in your own strength class any longer.

Basically, the DCAU deliberately depowered Superman just to take (some of) the PIS out of him, and the way he uses his speed is... fairly consistent with what you'd expect from a less powerful, slightly more realistic Superman. He uses his speed tactically in short bursts, but he can't use it "Metro Man (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-EjM5OEg3A)" style, where it's essentially more of a time stop than speed.


If that's what it takes to tire him out, sustained uses of superspeed well beneath that should barely be taxing at all.

Something like flying in relatively a straight line? Typing really fast? Sure. He can do that all day. But, again, combat maneuvering requires way more power than that.


If Thor has to actually will a storm into being, will the lightning generation to start, then why would he get to do that before the attacks start happening, barring speed feats for Thor?

Thor's best reaction time feat is probably knocking Zemo's generic raygun blast back at him, and it's very open to interpretation, but he has some pretty awesome feats for both durability and concentration in the face of some fairly incredible punishment.

Gorthaur
05-11-2014, 10:28 AM
The thing is, even if speed DOES tax him? He's going to have put Thor down long before that ever happens. It's not like Superman is going to have to sit there and carry on a speedblitz for 10 minutes straight. So we essentially still come down to the fact of : Thor ain't winning unless Supes forgets his speed. It just has to be accepted, Avengers Thor just isn't beating him. Maybe if the show had not been cancelled we'd of gotten more feats for Thor, maybe some speed feats, but as is? He can't win. It's not a knock him, it's just the reality of "speed being an advantage in combat" and such.

Because DCAU Superman hasn't demonstrated the power output to put Thor down before he can react. Repeating "BUT THE SPEED" over and over won't really change that.

Pendaran
05-11-2014, 01:38 PM
No. You're equivocating on the meaning of "sustainable" to create a strawman argument. The above argument may or may not be true depending on what level of power he's sustaining.

No, I'm going off you saying that he has finite superspeed because of the nature of his powers. Given the nature of his powers, and you using this argument to justify him only using his superspeed in generally one off moments as making sense just fine, either that means the yellow sun powers his superspeed into some far smaller or far more taxing reserve than all the rest of his powers, which nothing remotely refers to such being so, or all his powers, coming from the same source/notion, would have to be that limited.




His powers don't have to be on an "incredibly finite" timer, just on a timer. What I'm arguing is that while even DCAU Superman's power reserves are relatively vast, they can be exhausted, and moving super fast would also drain them super fast, because of, you know, physics: a faster rate of work = more power (or power drain). I mean, it's not like this is applying advanced real life calcs where they don't belong, it's as naive physics as physics comes.

You're doing so to substitute for apparently not then having any actual incident where one off uses of superspeed are a thing that taxes him at all. You're arguing he can't sustain any kind of use of speed because it would exhaust him. To do that, as far as your first argument, you would have to argue his speed somehow is powered differently, and more draining, than all his other powers, or his other powers are not being shown right. You're invoking physics in the face of what looks to be an utter lack of any evidence to support your claims.

And failing that, you then go to..


Not really. Ocean floor sediment and bedrock are made of substantially weaker materials than Superman, or the people capable of giving him an even fight. Also, spinning in one direction doesn't require you to expend energy on countering the forces you yourself are generating, as you would in a combat situation that might require you to, for example, throw your weight in one direction for an attack, and then dodge in another direction. I mean, think about it: if you're flying at superspeed and come to an instantaneous stop, you're essentially subjecting yourself to the same abrupt deceleration as you would hitting an immovable, indestructible wall, except that you don't even have the wall doing the work for you. You could try to get around it by slowing the rate of deceleration, but the more you do that, the less you're actually using your superspeed. You could try only using your speed with only, say, your hands, which have much less mass and which your Kryptonian body can very easily accelerate and decelerate to catching bullets and the like with no ill effects (as Superman does in the earlier clip), but then, for the same reason, you're probably not really hurting someone in your own strength class any longer.

If Superman is faster than someone to a significant degree, talking about things like having to generate dodging counterforce wouldn't make any sense as far as doing things like throwing a bunch of punches, using heat vision, what have you. He'll get off a bunch of attacks before he has to dodge anything. You're basically arguing then that the act of throwing a punch, using heat vision, so forth, is far more taxing to repeat than spinning his entire body around to use as a weapon, which doesn't look to make any sense.


if you're flying at superspeed and come to an instantaneous stop, you're essentially subjecting yourself to the same abrupt deceleration as you would hitting an immovable, indestructible wall, except that you don't even have the wall doing the work for you. You could try to get around it by slowing the rate of deceleration, but the more you do that, the less you're actually using your superspeed.

He comes to an outright abrupt stop during the drilling process that does not look to have the effect on him of "hitting an immovable, indestructible wall". He just stops spinning in one moment where in the previous moment he was spinning. And he's spinning his entire body around while digging it through the earth. You're now arguing some heat vision or throwing punches would be even more deleterious than that.




Basically, the DCAU deliberately depowered Superman just to take (some of) the PIS out of him, and the way he uses his speed is... fairly consistent with what you'd expect from a less powerful, slightly more realistic Superman. He uses his speed tactically in short bursts, but he can't use it "Metro Man" style, where it's essentially more of a time stop than speed.

He does 50 seconds of his entire body as a drill, eventually continuously, that by the logic you seem to be trying to invoke would run him far more ragged than simple punches.

Beyond even that


Also, spinning in one direction doesn't require you to expend energy on countering the forces you yourself are generating, as you would in a combat situation that might require you to, for example, throw your weight in one direction for an attack

No. Eventually he just starts constantly spinning without stopping, flying up, across and down, making u-turns, smashing through the stone in multiple different places, and so forth, covering a wider area. You also oddly try to invoke various real world analogies and comparisons to a guy who while moving in whatever direction is continuously spinning himself in a circle as he moves.

Throwing some punches in one direction? Using some heat vision? You are not making any clear explanation of why that would be vastly more difficult/draining. He basically has to just zip over, and start throwing some punches.


Something like flying in relatively a straight line? Typing really fast? Sure. He can do that all day. But, again, combat maneuvering requires way more power than that.

Using his heat vision? Throwing a punch? Not by what you're saying.


Thor's best reaction time feat is probably knocking Zemo's generic raygun blast back at him, and it's very open to interpretation, but he has some pretty awesome feats for both durability and concentration in the face of some fairly incredible punishment.

Then the best way to go, and the best argument I've seen for Thor kicking the crap out of him in this thread and others is that Superman, while he could blitz/outreact Thor, is not going to be capable of hurting him significantly enough in the time he has to stop Thor from invoking some massive damage effect of Superman beat the crap-out-ening, or at least staggering to then open him up to being hit further. He's only so fast, and so strong. It's not like his superfast punches are going to be coming in at some near light thing or anything close to it.

Saying Superman couldn't sustain use of his speed on the guy because he can only use his superspeed in short bursts doesn't really work with anything from the scene you invoke to just.. standard PIS stuff.

If Thor can just endure the punches or whatever until he can act, that's fine. The main argument against that would then be "what if Superman tries heat vision lobotomy", to which the counter would be "THor's durability is..."

Surtur
05-11-2014, 04:28 PM
Because DCAU Superman hasn't demonstrated the power output to put Thor down before he can react. Repeating "BUT THE SPEED" over and over won't really change that.

Okay, but you realize he doesn't need to put him down before he reacts, right? That the action of Thor reacting won't win him the fight? His best most damaging moves take time and he is still *too slow* to land any hits. So again I'm struggling to see what exactly you're arguing here. Nobody said he blurs over and neck snaps Thor, but Thor isn't going to be winning this battle. The guy lacks the fancy crap that can be busted out rather quickly with the hammer that comic versions have. He can't win the fight unless his opponent forgets to use his powers correctly.

Pendaran
05-11-2014, 05:12 PM
Okay, but you realize he doesn't need to put him down before he reacts, right? That the action of Thor reacting won't win him the fight? His best most damaging moves take time and he is still *too slow* to land any hits. So again I'm struggling to see what exactly you're arguing here. Nobody said he blurs over and neck snaps Thor, but Thor isn't going to be winning this battle. The guy lacks the fancy crap that can be busted out rather quickly with the hammer that comic versions have. He can't win the fight unless his opponent forgets to use his powers correctly.

I've seen EMH Thor bust out some solid area affecting stuff. If he can take the hits until he can generate it, that's a credible path to a win.

Hazard
05-11-2014, 05:57 PM
By the way, in regard to durability and strength, in addition to the island thing, Thor also has:

Grabbing the Nega Bomb, flying up into space and throwing the Nega Bomb all the way past the moon, the ensuing shockwaves does knock him out of the sky.

Take an extended beating from the Abomination, only to later stop one of his punches one-handed and reveal he was just waiting for his hammer to arrive.

Get into a fight with Absorbing Man who had taken the properties of Mjolnir, receive a beat down from him, only to reveal was not fighting back because he was busy figuring out how to control the guy. After both fights, Thor looks pretty much fine despite the many blows he received.

Hammering back a shot from Kang's ship that was noted as having the power to destroy the entire city all the way back to said ship. This does actually knocks him out for the rest of the confrontation.

master of read
05-11-2014, 06:02 PM
By the way, in regard to durability and strength, in addition to the island thing, Thor also has:

Grabbing the Nega Bomb, flying up into space and throwing the Nega Bomb all the way past the moon, the ensuing shockwaves does knock him out of the sky.

Take an extended beating from the Abomination, only to later stop one of his punches one-handed and reveal he was just waiting for his hammer to arrive.

Get into a fight with Absorbing Man who had taken the properties of Mjolnir, receive a beat down from him, only to reveal was not fighting back because he was busy figuring out how to control the guy. After both fights, Thor looks pretty much fine despite the many blows he received.

Hammering back a shot from Kang's ship that was noted as having the power to destroy the entire city all the way back to said ship. This does actually knocks him out for the rest of the confrontation.

also keep in mind that abom was jacked up on the leader's gamma booster so he was a lot bigger and stronger than he normally is. so much so that he was overwhelming the hulk when they fought.

Gorthaur
05-12-2014, 06:44 AM
No, I'm going off you saying that he has finite superspeed because of the nature of his powers.

Yes. Superman has finite amounts of energy available to him. We've seen him get tired, and we've seen him run out entirely when out of yellow sunlight. This is not some outlandish claim on my part, it's an established part of the character.


Given the nature of his powers, and you using this argument to justify him only using his superspeed in generally one off moments as making sense just fine, either that means the yellow sun powers his superspeed into some far smaller or far more taxing reserve than all the rest of his powers, which nothing remotely refers to such being so, or all his powers, coming from the same source/notion, would have to be that limited.

Uh, what? I'm not sure why you think Superman's speed would have to come from a "separate reserve" to be taxing to use. It can just as well be taxing to use because instantaneously accelerating a 100+ kg body to a speed the eye can't track, is a really taxing feat. As in, it requires, and therefore uses up, a lot of power.


You're doing so to substitute for apparently not then having any actual incident where one off uses of superspeed are a thing that taxes him at all. You're arguing he can't sustain any kind of use of speed because it would exhaust him. To do that, as far as your first argument, you would have to argue his speed somehow is powered differently, and more draining, than all his other powers, or his other powers are not being shown right. You're invoking physics in the face of what looks to be an utter lack of any evidence to support your claims.

Actually, I don't need to prove anything at all. I've demonstrated that Superman can be tired out by the use of his powers, and even went as far as to show him exhausted by performing a speed-intensive feat. I think needing to show that using up a lot of energy is tiring should have been obvious and unnecessary, but since that was what you called for, I did.

If you want to claim that Superman's speed is something that he can use to an unlimited degree and which doesn't tax him in the way that other uses of his strength do, then you're the one claiming that it's powered differently from his other abilities, and also going against what is shown in the various series he's in.

And really, the physics I'm invoking is on the level of "large rock harder to lift than small rock." That's not me applying advanced theoretical physics to a cartoon. It's not even first year elementary school physics. It's the sort of naive physics that's intuitively obvious to pretty much anybody.


If Superman is faster than someone to a significant degree, talking about things like having to generate dodging counterforce wouldn't make any sense as far as doing things like throwing a bunch of punches, using heat vision, what have you. He'll get off a bunch of attacks before he has to dodge anything. You're basically arguing then that the act of throwing a punch, using heat vision, so forth, is far more taxing to repeat than spinning his entire body around to use as a weapon, which doesn't look to make any sense.

No, I'm claiming that throwing punches with enough force to hurt someone like Thor is more taxing than spinning through ocean sediment and bedrock. Heat vision probably is pretty taxing as well, being the most effective way of producing enough raw power to hurt someone of Darkseid's or Doomsday's level of durability in the Kryptonian arsenal, and also (IIRC) the last of their powers to develop under a yellow sun.


He comes to an outright abrupt stop during the drilling process that does not look to have the effect on him of "hitting an immovable, indestructible wall". He just stops spinning in one moment where in the previous moment he was spinning. And he's spinning his entire body around while digging it through the earth. You're now arguing some heat vision or throwing punches would be even more deleterious than that.

I wasn't talking about spinning, I was talking about moving through space fast enough to be untouchable to Thor, which is much more difficult that spinning around your own axis.


No. Eventually he just starts constantly spinning without stopping, flying up, across and down, making u-turns, smashing through the stone in multiple different places, and so forth, covering a wider area. You also oddly try to invoke various real world analogies and comparisons to a guy who while moving in whatever direction is continuously spinning himself in a circle as he moves.

If it makes you happy, we can have the real-world person doing pirouettes. Doesn't really hurt the analogy any.

It also doesn't change the core issue here, which is that Superman gets tired after an intensive use of his speed, which is what you wanted to see demonstrated, and which I did. You've now moved to quibbling over details to make a point I'm... not really clear on.


Throwing some punches in one direction? Using some heat vision? You are not making any clear explanation of why that would be vastly more difficult/draining. He basically has to just zip over, and start throwing some punches.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I don't think Superman can zip over to Thor and start throwing punches, since I've never said anything of the sort.

Let's go over what I am saying:

1) Superman doesn't have infinite power reserves. He can't lift infinitely heavy objects. He can't hold the heaviest objects he can lift for an infinite amount of time. He can't go infinitely fast. He can't sustain his highest level of speed infinitely.

2) To determine how long Superman can function at superspeed, we need to look at his feats for functioning at superspeed, just as, to determine his lifting strength, we'd have to examine his lifting feats.

3) Going by said feats, it seems to me that Superman can almost certainly "zip over to Thor" and get in the first several strikes of the Rumble. It doesn't, however, seem to me that he can sustain a level of speed and damage output required to take Thor out before he has a chance to retaliate. I.e. he can't throw a million punches in the first microsecond like comic Superman can, and he can't function at a level which would make Thor and every attack he throws seem like a statue.

In fact, it seems to me that...


Then the best way to go, and the best argument I've seen for Thor kicking the crap out of him in this thread and others is that Superman, while he could blitz/outreact Thor, is not going to be capable of hurting him significantly enough in the time he has to stop Thor from invoking some massive damage effect of Superman beat the crap-out-ening, or at least staggering to then open him up to being hit further. He's only so fast, and so strong. It's not like his superfast punches are going to be coming in at some near light thing or anything close to it.

...you already pretty much agree with me, so I'm not exactly sure why you've felt it necessary to have this long exchange over... what? All I can think of now is that you're taking my use of "sustained superspeed" to mean something other than what it does.

Surtur
05-12-2014, 08:02 AM
By the way, in regard to durability and strength, in addition to the island thing, Thor also has:

Grabbing the Nega Bomb, flying up into space and throwing the Nega Bomb all the way past the moon, the ensuing shockwaves does knock him out of the sky.

Take an extended beating from the Abomination, only to later stop one of his punches one-handed and reveal he was just waiting for his hammer to arrive.

Get into a fight with Absorbing Man who had taken the properties of Mjolnir, receive a beat down from him, only to reveal was not fighting back because he was busy figuring out how to control the guy. After both fights, Thor looks pretty much fine despite the many blows he received.

Hammering back a shot from Kang's ship that was noted as having the power to destroy the entire city all the way back to said ship. This does actually knocks him out for the rest of the confrontation.

I don't think anyone is saying he isn't durable. Just that he isn't durable to the point of being able to functionally *ignore* the attacks of his opponent, which is more or less what he is going to need to do. I have never once seen EMH Thor busting out anything impressive while getting the shit kicked out of him by an opponent moving too fast for him to react to, an opponent who hits JUST as hard as some of the people who have physically harmed Thor in the past on the show, and by an opponent with beams of heat pouring out of his eyeballs that have definitely hurt people around the level of durability of Thor. All these factors combined do not bode well for him. This is not a situation where Superman has to hit the guy a billion times before he reacts.

Slade1
05-12-2014, 08:34 AM
I don't think anyone is saying he isn't durable. Just that he isn't durable to the point of being able to functionally *ignore* the attacks of his opponent, which is more or less what he is going to need to do. I have never once seen EMH Thor busting out anything impressive while getting the shit kicked out of him by an opponent moving too fast for him to react to, an opponent who hits JUST as hard as some of the people who have physically harmed Thor in the past on the show, and by an opponent with beams of heat pouring out of his eyeballs that have definitely hurt people around the level of durability of Thor. All these factors combined do not bode well for him. This is not a situation where Superman has to hit the guy a billion times before he reacts.

Well, according to Pen, Thor does have AoE affects he can pull off that will at least stagger Superman. DCAU Superman isn't as fast as his comic counterpart to win 10/10 against Thor. While I think Superman wins a majority of the time, it's not a stretch for Thor to weather the initial blitz to pull of an AoE, one after another.

Pendaran
05-12-2014, 09:31 AM
Yes. Superman has finite amounts of energy available to him. We've seen him get tired, and we've seen him run out entirely when out of yellow sunlight. This is not some outlandish claim on my part, it's an established part of the character.

Not in the way you are trying to claim interacts with him using superspeed, given your inability to provide even a single showing that actually demonstrates this. That you claim it being the reason for why he only uses his speed in one off moments would have to then apply to the use of his other abilities to be consistent, and he certainly doesn't use them like that. He shouldn't even be able to use even his strength in the basic ways he does if it worked like that.

That Superman might eventually tire, that Superman's powers might eventually run out, do not provide for you claiming his speed should be /that/ draining on his powers, when no showings provide for that such as don't involve far more involved things, and you can't provide any, and you've reached a point of saying you don't have to provide any. And even those showings, if his speed drained his powers that bad, all his powers should crap out. They're not in discrete boxes. If his speed drained him that hard, he shouldn't have been able to fly afterwards.

I asked if you could provide any showings that show Superman using his speed tiring him notably, having any kind of reference to why he would only use his speed in short bursts for that being the case. The only thing you could remotely provide was an instance where for 50 seconds or so, Superman spun his entire body around to turn it into a drill to force through the earth, and tried to invoke various real world analogies that just don't work with, say, turning one's body into a human drill, to say why this clearly demonstrated that. You for some reason held this as vastly beneath the difficulty of throwing punches, or dodging, or firing some heat vision, despite that one is spinning his entire body around like a drill, and the other is throwing some punches, or firing some heat vision, or not, say, spinning his entire body around like a drill.

You then, likely as facilitated that you otherwise have nothing involving Superman actually does, tried to invoke things like talking more about real world ideas about how devastating it would be when going at these speeds to "course correct" or "stop himself" or what have you, making a problem that while spinning his entire body around, at speeds so fast he is now a drill, Superman takes u-turns, and otherwise abruptly stops himself without even a remote sign of that messing with him. And again, you said it would be a huge problem for him to even dodge. Here he stops his entire body from spinning around so fast it is a drill, abruptly, with no sign of that doing anything to him. He takes u-turns while being a drill. He flies across an area. No problems, no tiring, until he is done. If anything by this logic, he should be able to by comparison punch, dodge, use heat vision far more easily and for far longer, given that these are smaller things.

I'll ask again:

Do you have any actual showings that demonstrate anything you say? If not, nothing you are talking about has anything to do with animated Superman.

The idea is, when you make a claim, you provide showings to back that claim. Do you have any showings of Superman demonstrating or even referring to the use of his superspeed as something he cannot sustain in the way you have tried to talk about it, or is this just you trying to justify simple PIS?

Especially this:



.
If it makes you happy, we can have the real-world person doing pirouettes. Doesn't really hurt the analogy any.

This is a widely inadequate analogy to someone who is using superpowers to spin their body around so fast that it is a drill through rock, across fifty seconds, doing all the things in them you claim should make a far more basic act of dodging draining and difficult. If Superman can abruptly stop himself as a human drill without having the problems you say he should have, then keep on being a human drill afterwards, something as simple as dodging should be a miniscule effort to him.

Do you have any showings at all that demonstrate your claims that Superman doesn't superspeed punch people because it would massively drain him, or not? All you're so far doing is saying that Superman gets a pass on board standards for evidence.

Otherwise, if the guy can be a human drill off superspeed for 50 seconds or so, throwing a bunch of punches, out reacting someone with heat vision or the like, repeatedly dodging non AoE shots, that all looks like nothing but things that should be not particularly draining at all, given your lack of performances to support that it should be.



3) Going by said feats, it seems to me that Superman can almost certainly "zip over to Thor" and get in the first several strikes of the Rumble. It doesn't, however, seem to me that he can sustain a level of speed and damage output required to take Thor out before he has a chance to retaliate. I.e. he can't throw a million punches in the first microsecond like comic Superman can, and he can't function at a level which would make Thor and every attack he throws seem like a statue.


Given the speeds of Superman and Thor in this case, if Thor didn't use area hits, it would certainly let Superman dodge the crap out of Thor's attacks, while delivering flurries of his own that Thor couldn't do much about.

That Superman couldn't throw a million punches or whatever on Thor is not because Superman can't sustain uses of his speed for things as simple as punches and flurries of, it is because Superman /is not that fast/. He can zip over and hit Thor a bunch of times before Thor can react. Nothing provided suggests that should start impairing Superman in any meaningful way or is something he couldn't keep up with doing within the context of the fight. He can dodge non area blasts from Thor a whole bunch of times and without much effort. Nothing provided suggests that should start impairing him in any meaningful way within the context of the fight.

You ask what my exception with your statements is? My exception is that you're bending over backwards to provide arguments that range from odd as far as the ramifications of them showing that indeed, punching or heat vision or dodging inbetween punches would be comparatively minor, to being based in nothing to do with the character, to invoking analogies that just don't match up. When it's entirely more simple and accurate to.. almost every character with enhanced speed/agility/reactions from Batgirl to Spiderman to Quicksilver (who out of everyone here at least had an actual explicit period of "he massively drains himself to use his speed" era) to Gladiator of "now they show speed. now they don't". It's just PIS.

And especially when it's just completely unnecessary if you can all of show Thor can take the hits, then bust out area stuff.

Which: Someone posted a bunch of durability showings for Thor ontop of other ones.

I've myself seen Thor bust out area crap from storms to big honking energy blasts.

Simple. No need for ornate things that don't really interact with Superman much.

Pendaran
05-12-2014, 10:05 AM
With all that said, it's not like animated Doomsday's durability sucked, and he took a heat vision lobotomy. I would say, I've only watched so much EMH, the biotech Dracula ep made me throw my hands up in the air and have done with things for instance, what does Thor have as far as not having that as a problem?

The best one might say otherwise as it stands is that Justice Lord Superman did that (but him and Original Recipe Animated Supes were shown as on par in oomph), and that the second lobotomy attempt failed (but that was part of his evolution whatevers).

Surtur
05-12-2014, 10:23 AM
Well, according to Pen, Thor does have AoE affects he can pull off that will at least stagger Superman. DCAU Superman isn't as fast as his comic counterpart to win 10/10 against Thor. While I think Superman wins a majority of the time, it's not a stretch for Thor to weather the initial blitz to pull of an AoE, one after another.

I'm comfortable with merely giving him a majority, but I do think he's going to have trouble doing aoe attacks while getting pounded on.


With all that said, it's not like animated Doomsday's durability sucked, and he took a heat vision lobotomy. I would say, I've only watched so much EMH, the biotech Dracula ep made me throw my hands up in the air and have done with things for instance, what does Thor have as far as not having that as a problem?

Well Dracula never appeared in EMH. He has been in the other Avengers cartoon and been shown in the Ultimate Spider-man cartoon(The Ultimate Spiderman and Avengers assembled are not in the same universe), but never EMH. Were you thinking of Thor from Avengers Assembled or from EMH?


The best one might say otherwise as it stands is that Justice Lord Superman did that (but him and Original Recipe Animated Supes were shown as on par in oomph), and that the second lobotomy attempt failed (but that was part of his evolution whatevers).

Well yeah it was more or less said he resisted due to evolution, he does say "can't beat me the same way twice". The more bizarre thing about that incident is Question somehow knowing Superman attempted to lobotomize Doomsday in the volcano.

byc
05-12-2014, 10:27 AM
With all that said, it's not like animated Doomsday's durability sucked, and he took a heat vision lobotomy. I would say, I've only watched so much EMH, the biotech Dracula ep made me throw my hands up in the air and have done with things for instance, what does Thor have as far as not having that as a problem?

The best one might say otherwise as it stands is that Justice Lord Superman did that (but him and Original Recipe Animated Supes were shown as on par in oomph), and that the second lobotomy attempt failed (but that was part of his evolution whatevers).

Dracula doesn't show up in EMH. Are you thinking of Avengers Assemble?

Pendaran
05-12-2014, 10:33 AM
Dracula doesn't show up in EMH. Are you thinking of Avengers Assemble?

Haven't the showrunners argued them shows being same continuity? It blurred them together for me.

Surtur
05-12-2014, 10:35 AM
Haven't the showrunners argued them shows being same continuity?

Before it aired they somewhat suggested that, but after it began airing that more or less has not been implied. For instance, in a recent episode they meet Odin in Avengers Assembled and act like it is the first time. However, in EMH they met Odin already at the end of season 1. Plus that and the pretty dramatic shifts in personality. In AA the team throws down with each other over cookies.

byc
05-12-2014, 10:38 AM
Haven't the showrunners argued them shows being same continuity? It blurred them together for me.

Oh that. I believe the show runners have said that yes, it's the same continuity. I've seen only 1 episode of AA, and I hated it so much that I didn't see any other (the Drac episode actually).

Pendaran
05-12-2014, 10:40 AM
My bad then. I've ultimately only watched so much of either, of EMH enough to certainly note Thor has various AoE crap, not enough to say that he should be able to endure heat vision lobotomy, so.. yeah, question there stands on what Thor has to withstand that.

Surtur
05-12-2014, 10:42 AM
Oh that. I believe the show runners have said that yes, it's the same continuity. I've seen only 1 episode of AA, and I hated it so much that I didn't see any other (the Drac episode actually).

Well the same continuity thing went out the window went it began airing, but the show does get better as it goes on. So if you've only watched early episodes it might be worth checking out. Hyperion eventually shows up and other such shenanigans. It's still not on the level of quality EMH was though.


My bad then. I've ultimately only watched so much of either, of EMH enough to certainly note Thor has various AoE crap, not enough to say that he should be able to endure heat vision lobotomy, so.. yeah, question there stands on what Thor has to withstand that.

Well, if you are asking if he could get lobotomized and still effectively fight then no. Doomsday only got better once his brain healed, but he was initially left more or less a drooling mess. Though all the people who Supes lobotomized in Arkham Asylum weren't drooling messes, so I guess with time they do regain some function.

byc
05-12-2014, 10:53 AM
My bad then. I've ultimately only watched so much of either, of EMH enough to certainly note Thor has various AoE crap, not enough to say that he should be able to endure heat vision lobotomy, so.. yeah, question there stands on what Thor has to withstand that.

I can't think of anything EMH Thor has resisted to say he's safe from heat vision. He's really really tough though, taking shots from Graviton, Hulk, Executioner, the U-Men, Absorbing Man, Abomination, Wrecking Crew...maybe others I can't recall...

I don't think any of the ones I've listed are as strong as JLU Superman. JLU Superman's fights against Darkseid, Braniac, Captain Marvel, Captain Atom, Doomsday, Mongul, Amazo, and Kalibak are generally on a high scale, especially all the Darkseid fights, Captain Marvel, Captain Atom, Mongul, and Doomsday.

Heat vision that can hurt Darkseid, Doomsday, and Mongul should be able hurt Thor just fine.

byc
05-12-2014, 10:57 AM
Well the same continuity thing went out the window went it began airing, but the show does get better as it goes on. So if you've only watched early episodes it might be worth checking out. Hyperion eventually shows up and other such shenanigans. It's still not on the level of quality EMH was though.

I might check out Hyperion. That sounds interesting.


Well, if you are asking if he could get lobotomized and still effectively fight then no. Doomsday only got better once his brain healed, but he was initially left more or less a drooling mess. Though all the people who Supes lobotomized in Arkham Asylum weren't drooling messes, so I guess with time they do regain some function.

Arkham inmates aren't at the same level as Doomsday, so maybe Lord Superman didn't do a hatchet job on them because for them, they can contribute as regular humans. There's no way for us to know that or not though.

Pendaran
05-12-2014, 10:58 AM
Well, if you are asking if he could get lobotomized and still effectively fight then no. Doomsday only got better once his brain healed, but he was initially left more or less a drooling mess. Though all the people who Supes lobotomized in Arkham Asylum weren't drooling messes, so I guess with time they do regain some function.

I'm more asking what he has durability wise to get out of that happening to him.

Surtur
05-12-2014, 11:08 AM
I'm more asking what he has durability wise to get out of that happening to him.

Oh well in that case..yeah, nothing really that puts him as significantly more durable then the likes of Doomsday.

byc
05-12-2014, 11:10 AM
I'm more asking what he has durability wise to get out of that happening to him.

...Thor does have a nice shiny helmet...

Slade1
05-12-2014, 12:40 PM
...Thor does have a nice shiny helmet...

And shiny golden locks to go with the helmet.

big_adventure
05-12-2014, 01:43 PM
Oh well in that case..yeah, nothing really that puts him as significantly more durable then the likes of Doomsday.

2 things:

1. "Significantly" might be the key word here - are Doomsday's feats that good? I haven't seen stuff with him in a while, but Thor's are pretty excellent.

2. The whole heat vision lobotomy thing required seconds, didn't it? I don't recall it being remotely instant.

Surtur
05-12-2014, 01:50 PM
Significantly" might be the key word here - are Doomsday's feats that good? I haven't seen stuff with him in a while

The few feats we have..Doomsday is shown to be more durable and stronger then JLU Supes. He only appears in all of 2 episodes.


but Thor's are pretty excellent.

They are excellent, but there is nothing that suggests greater durability though in his 50+ appearances.


2. The whole heat vision lobotomy thing required seconds, didn't it? I don't recall it being remotely instant.

It took all of a few seconds, and this was a Superman who wasn't wailing on Thor at super speed at the same time.

It comes down to this: Thor's durability is more or less on par with JLU Supes. Doomsday is someone who is shown to be even more durable still. Superman has HV that can lobotomize Doomsday in all of a few seconds. In this fight, he is directing that HV at Thor, at super speed, while also probably hitting him with strength more or less on the level of other people we have seen physically hurting EMH Thor.

When it comes to purely physical things(other then speed of course) I more or less see JLU Supes and Thor on the same level. Doomsday, at the very least, is above that level. He shows up twice, and more or less proves to be physically superior each time. The first time he loses due to HV, the second time Supes has to toss him into a volcano and trap him because he wasn't actually doing any real damage to him. Make no mistake, evil Superman was trying to beat Doomsday to death while fighting him. He was willing to kill. He failed, the HV lobotomy was a last resort.

big_adventure
05-12-2014, 02:16 PM
The few feats we have..Doomsday is shown to be more durable and stronger then JLU Supes. He only appears in all of 2 episodes.



They are excellent, but there is nothing that suggests greater durability though in his 50+ appearances.



It took all of a few seconds, and this was a Superman who wasn't wailing on Thor at super speed at the same time.

It comes down to this: Thor's durability is more or less on par with JLU Supes. Doomsday is someone who is shown to be even more durable still. Superman has HV that can lobotomize Doomsday in all of a few seconds. In this fight, he is directing that HV at Thor, at super speed, while also probably hitting him with strength more or less on the level of other people we have seen physically hurting EMH Thor.

When it comes to purely physical things(other then speed of course) I more or less see JLU Supes and Thor on the same level. Doomsday, at the very least, is above that level. He shows up twice, and more or less proves to be physically superior each time. The first time he loses due to HV, the second time Supes has to toss him into a volcano and trap him because he wasn't actually doing any real damage to him. Make no mistake, evil Superman was trying to beat Doomsday to death while fighting him. He was willing to kill. He failed, the HV lobotomy was a last resort.

Well explained - I make no objections.

Dalak
05-12-2014, 02:17 PM
It took all of a few seconds, and this was a Superman who wasn't wailing on Thor at super speed at the same time.

Wailing on him won't give the HV time to penetrate at a focused point and would be a more delayed 'Superman cutting off the top of Thor's skull' assuming that the helmet will do nothing to assist. Animated Supes doesn't have the feats to keep HV focused on the same tiny points while blitzing the hell out of someone with punches.

Also: How does superspeed effect the amount of time something takes to heat via HV? It doesn't seem like it should.

byc
05-12-2014, 02:19 PM
Superman lobotomized Doomsday

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKcqhdTy7Qg

About the 17 second mark to 20 second mark, so about 3 seconds. Longer than Thor's godblast against Graviton.

I do have to note...this is Justice Lord Superman. So it's an alternate Superman, so feat might not apply to regular Superman. But regular Superman has heat visioned through Darkseid's foot.

Surtur
05-12-2014, 02:31 PM
Wailing on him won't give the HV time to penetrate at a focused point and would be a more delayed 'Superman cutting off the top of Thor's skull' assuming that the helmet will do nothing to assist. Animated Supes doesn't have the feats to keep HV focused on the same tiny points while blitzing the hell out of someone with punches.

Also: How does superspeed effect the amount of time something takes to heat via HV? It doesn't seem like it should.

I moreso just meant he can definitely keep him off guard long enough for the 2-3 seconds it is going to take. Thor won't be taking Superman out in a few moments, thus the reason he loses.

So at the end of the day, we still have Thor's winning this fight depending on Superman just plain forgetting his speed and other powers.

Dalak
05-12-2014, 02:47 PM
I moreso just meant he can definitely keep him off guard long enough for the 2-3 seconds it is going to take. Thor won't be taking Superman out in a few moments, thus the reason he loses.

If he can beat/whatever Thor into not moving his head or hammer for 3 seconds, why does he even need the lobotomy? Just keep beating on him to get the 10-count.

I did not say that Thor wins, but I think that the lobotomy is being oversold here. Doomsday was just talking and could have reacted were he not pontificating, as proven when he punched Regular Superman before he could finish the job.

Surtur
05-12-2014, 03:26 PM
If he can beat/whatever Thor into not moving his head or hammer for 3 seconds, why does he even need the lobotomy? Just keep beating on him to get the 10-count.

I did not say that Thor wins, but I think that the lobotomy is being oversold here. Doomsday was just talking and could have reacted were he not pontificating, as proven when he punched Regular Superman before he could finish the job.

I'm not sure what is being oversold about it. It's not going to take long to affect Thor, it pierced Doomsday rather quickly.

Blackid
05-12-2014, 07:15 PM
I'm sorry but I find that clip very shady... How can his bone's withstand that type of power, yet his skull (a bone) allow two holes to be dug into him without even flinching at the fist sign of burning... I know when he did it to the guy from the Elites in the comics he made the light so small it went thru the eye socket to his brain and lobotomized him. that would have made more sense.... Not saying he couldn't do it... just seemed like to easy of a reset button for the most hard core of Superman villains. And what's with him talking so much... Sorry, that shouldn't count.

byc
05-12-2014, 09:01 PM
I'm sorry but I find that clip very shady... How can his bone's withstand that type of power, yet his skull (a bone) allow two holes to be dug into him without even flinching at the fist sign of burning... I know when he did it to the guy from the Elites in the comics he made the light so small it went thru the eye socket to his brain and lobotomized him. that would have made more sense.... Not saying he couldn't do it... just seemed like to easy of a reset button for the most hard core of Superman villains. And what's with him talking so much... Sorry, that shouldn't count.

I don't understand Thor's magic, so I reject it.
I don't understand how Superman's powers work, so I reject it.

Staticx
05-12-2014, 09:25 PM
It's a closer fight if they have morals on, but blood lusted Superman would beat Thor pretty quickly due to the massive speed advantage.

dupersuper
05-13-2014, 04:32 AM
No he is right Thor totally DOES win...at a "who has the best hair" contest.

But can he compete with Supermans beard?

http://images.wikia.com/superman/images/2/27/Beard-JLHereafter.jpg


(The Ultimate Spiderman and Avengers assembled are not in the same universe)

Actually, I believe they are. Ultimate Spider-Mans season premier is supposed to be a cross over with Avengers Assemble.


Though all the people who Supes lobotomized in Arkham Asylum weren't drooling messes

For the record, it wasn't really Superman lobotomising people, it was Justice Lords Superman (essentially Ultra Man).

Surtur
05-13-2014, 05:20 AM
I'm sorry but I find that clip very shady... How can his bone's withstand that type of power, yet his skull (a bone) allow two holes to be dug into him without even flinching at the fist sign of burning... I know when he did it to the guy from the Elites in the comics he made the light so small it went thru the eye socket to his brain and lobotomized him. that would have made more sense.... Not saying he couldn't do it... just seemed like to easy of a reset button for the most hard core of Superman villains. And what's with him talking so much... Sorry, that shouldn't count.

The problem is he never actually did it to the Elite, he just said he did but he was messing with Manchester Black and trying to make him cry(it totally worked!). Otherwise, your complaint is that it doesn't make sense..but it happened. Dudes from other planets flying around shooting heat beams out of their eyes at upgraded clones of themselves doesn't make much sense either, but..you know, comics! These lovely things we all read where crazy crap happens that shouldn't.


Actually, I believe they are. Ultimate Spider-Mans season premier is supposed to be a cross over with Avengers Assemble.

Nope, this can be confusing because Marvel really hasn't tried to make this clearer, but it goes like this: Hulk and the Agents of Smash and Ult. Spiderman are in the same universe. The Avengers Assemble thing is a different universe. Reason: Dracula has shown up on both shows, but it was definitely different versions of him. See, the back door pilot for Agents of Smash took place in an ep of Ult Spider-Man. Hulk from that universe was way way more stupid then he is in the Agents of Smash show, but he and Spiderman swapped bodies and when he returned to his own..he had increased intellect. The Hulk from Avengers Assembles..never went through those shenanigans and doesn't have that increased intellect, although he still isn't mind less either.

Yeah, the recent Marvel cartoons are one big clusterf*ck of what is supposed to be what.


For the record, it wasn't really Superman lobotomising people, it was Justice Lords Superman (essentially Ultra Man).

Well, if we want to get technical that *is* Superman, just from an alternate universe. Same dude, same species. Ultra-Man, in the comics, in some versions wasn't even a Kryptonian. The power sapper Lex made specifically to use on Superman and others? Worked on the evil versions just fine. Plus, you have the feat with JLU Supes using HV on Darkseid as well, and that wasn't the evil version. Not to mention when non-evil goes for the lobotomy, it is more or less implied to be at the same intensity as the other dude, but Doomsday shrugs it off with "can't beat me the same way twice" as opposed to "can't beat me because your power level is lesser then that of your alternate universe doppleganger".

abhilegend
05-13-2014, 10:55 PM
Apparently an older and weaker JLU Superman tossed a kryptonite moon in the sun.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/BatmanBeyondUnlimited009-13.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/BatmanBeyondUnlimited009-14.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/BatmanBeyondUnlimited009-16.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/BatmanBeyondUnlimited009-17.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/BatmanBeyondUnlimited009-19.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/BatmanBeyondUnlimited009-20.jpg

That's from Batman Beyond comic which is canon to JLU.

Pendaran
05-14-2014, 02:14 AM
Considering how wildly beyond anything JLU Supes did in the actual cartoons or was even intimated at being capable of doing, why do you feel, especially for happening outside of the cartoon, that this is a valid showing for animated Superman?

moonknight11
05-14-2014, 09:46 AM
The few feats we have..Doomsday is shown to be more durable and stronger then JLU Supes. He only appears in all of 2 episodes.



They are excellent, but there is nothing that suggests greater durability though in his 50+ appearances.



It took all of a few seconds, and this was a Superman who wasn't wailing on Thor at super speed at the same time.

It comes down to this: Thor's durability is more or less on par with JLU Supes. Doomsday is someone who is shown to be even more durable still. Superman has HV that can lobotomize Doomsday in all of a few seconds. In this fight, he is directing that HV at Thor, at super speed, while also probably hitting him with strength more or less on the level of other people we have seen physically hurting EMH Thor.

When it comes to purely physical things(other then speed of course) I more or less see JLU Supes and Thor on the same level. Doomsday, at the very least, is above that level. He shows up twice, and more or less proves to be physically superior each time. The first time he loses due to HV, the second time Supes has to toss him into a volcano and trap him because he wasn't actually doing any real damage to him. Make no mistake, evil Superman was trying to beat Doomsday to death while fighting him. He was willing to kill. He failed, the HV lobotomy was a last resort.


I don't really agree with this. Thor seemed more physically impressive than Supes and Doomsday.

Surtur
05-14-2014, 11:00 AM
Apparently an older and weaker JLU Superman tossed a kryptonite moon in the sun.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/BatmanBeyondUnlimited009-13.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/BatmanBeyondUnlimited009-14.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/BatmanBeyondUnlimited009-16.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/BatmanBeyondUnlimited009-17.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/BatmanBeyondUnlimited009-19.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/BatmanBeyondUnlimited009-20.jpg

That's from Batman Beyond comic which is canon to JLU.

Not that the feat is on par with his other stuff, but why is he weaker because he is older? Did the comic say that? Most versions don't get weaker with age.

Gorthaur
05-14-2014, 11:30 AM
Not in the way you are trying to claim interacts with him using superspeed, given your inability to provide even a single showing that actually demonstrates this. That you claim it being the reason for why he only uses his speed in one off moments would have to then apply to the use of his other abilities to be consistent, and he certainly doesn't use them like that. He shouldn't even be able to use even his strength in the basic ways he does if it worked like that.

You mean, apart from where I explicitly showed Superman being exhausted by burning up a lot of energy using superspeed, rendering him weakened enough to need a rest on his knees and being consequently defeated by a single blast from Darkseid? Which is well below any of Superman's other showings against him, in which he always made Darkseid at least work for it.


That Superman might eventually tire, that Superman's powers might eventually run out, do not provide for you claiming his speed should be /that/ draining on his powers, when no showings provide for that such as don't involve far more involved things, and you can't provide any, and you've reached a point of saying you don't have to provide any. And even those showings, if his speed drained his powers that bad, all his powers should crap out. They're not in discrete boxes. If his speed drained him that hard, he shouldn't have been able to fly afterwards.

That's like saying that a world record deadlift doesn't tire a person out if they're able to lift a pen afterwards. Or, since you dislike analogies so much, flying a short distance at a relatively slow speed is a trivial effort for Superman, and even then, he was clearly exhausted once he'd done that. In other words, his powers did crap out, even if they weren't reduced to zero.


I asked if you could provide any showings that show Superman using his speed tiring him notably, having any kind of reference to why he would only use his speed in short bursts for that being the case. The only thing you could remotely provide was an instance where for 50 seconds or so, Superman spun his entire body around to turn it into a drill to force through the earth, and tried to invoke various real world analogies that just don't work with, say, turning one's body into a human drill, to say why this clearly demonstrated that. You for some reason held this as vastly beneath the difficulty of throwing punches, or dodging, or firing some heat vision, despite that one is spinning his entire body around like a drill, and the other is throwing some punches, or firing some heat vision, or not, say, spinning his entire body around like a drill.

I like how you choose to ignore the relevant part of my argument, which is that he needs to be throwing punches hard enough to affect Thor.


You then, likely as facilitated that you otherwise have nothing involving Superman actually does, tried to invoke things like talking more about real world ideas about how devastating it would be when going at these speeds to "course correct" or "stop himself" or what have you

Yes. If he wants to hit Thor with enough momentum and speed to make a difference, again and again, he'll have to use up the energy required to accelerate himself to that speed, again and again. If you want to throw this level of basic physics out of the window, you can't then use it in your own argument about how much power it takes to spin through rock, either. Pick one.


making a problem that while spinning his entire body around, at speeds so fast he is now a drill, Superman takes u-turns, and otherwise abruptly stops himself without even a remote sign of that messing with him. And again, you said it would be a huge problem for him to even dodge. Here he stops his entire body from spinning around so fast it is a drill, abruptly, with no sign of that doing anything to him. He takes u-turns while being a drill. He flies across an area. No problems, no tiring, until he is done. If anything by this logic, he should be able to by comparison punch, dodge, use heat vision far more easily and for far longer, given that these are smaller things.

Rotating an object along its own axis like a spintop doesn't exactly take spectacular amounts of power for someone like Superman, and while drilling through rock obviously does, you're still ignoring the fact that Thor is substantially tougher than rock by several orders of magnitude. Thor falls from orbit, at terminal velocity, under a 500 ton mass, into rock, shattering it, leaving a crater... and gets up unfazed. Ergo, punches that break something inside Thor will require much more power than breaking rock.


Do you have any actual showings that demonstrate anything you say? If not, nothing you are talking about has anything to do with animated Superman.

The idea is, when you make a claim, you provide showings to back that claim. Do you have any showings of Superman demonstrating or even referring to the use of his superspeed as something he cannot sustain in the way you have tried to talk about it, or is this just you trying to justify simple PIS?

You've been here long enough to know that I don't need to demonstrate the inability to do something: otherwise, we can have you demonstrate that Thor isn't a hundred times faster than Superman. We grant Superman the ability to use his speed to the extent that he has demonstrated being able to do so, and that extends to his stamina. "Prove that he can't" isn't a valid argument, and PIS refers to a failure to use established powers within their established limits.

I'm not gonna say that Superman never fails to use his speed optimally due to PIS, and you'll note that I never did. What I originally said was only that there's a reasonable explanation for him not rendering himself untouchable in every fight, and if there's a reasonable explanation, then you can't grant Superman extra feats based on speculation of what you think he might be able to, sans PIS.


This is a widely inadequate analogy to someone who is using superpowers to spin their body around so fast that it is a drill through rock, across fifty seconds, doing all the things in them you claim should make a far more basic act of dodging draining and difficult. If Superman can abruptly stop himself as a human drill without having the problems you say he should have, then keep on being a human drill afterwards, something as simple as dodging should be a miniscule effort to him.

Dude, I can effortlessly spin a dumbbell that I can't even lift without straining, much less move in space in a controlled fashion. That's because spinning an object is easy, whereas moving its entire mass is much harder. I'm not sure why you even keep bringing it up, given your stated distase for applying physics of any kind to these characters.


Do you have any showings at all that demonstrate your claims that Superman doesn't superspeed punch people because it would massively drain him, or not? All you're so far doing is saying that Superman gets a pass on board standards for evidence.

I sure don't. It's a good thing I'm not making that argument, anyway, since Superman has plenty of feats superspeed punching people. Even extremely durable people. He even has feats for doing it a bunch of times in a row. The difference seems to be that I'm not willing to grant him the ability to do it an indefinite number of times more than he actually ever has.


Otherwise, if the guy can be a human drill off superspeed for 50 seconds or so, throwing a bunch of punches, out reacting someone with heat vision or the like, repeatedly dodging non AoE shots, that all looks like nothing but things that should be not particularly draining at all, given your lack of performances to support that it should be.

Out-reacting Thor, no problem. Dodging most of his direct, single target attacks, no problem. Punching Thor hard enough to hurt? That's going to actually take effort, and a lot of it. And when you claim that Superman can do that and maintain a level of speed high enough to make him imperceptible to Thor, you lose me, because Superman has never shown that kind of power output. He's shown himself to be tired out by less.


Given the speeds of Superman and Thor in this case, if Thor didn't use area hits, it would certainly let Superman dodge the crap out of Thor's attacks, while delivering flurries of his own that Thor couldn't do much about.

Again, I can grant you that. There are some (shaky) evidence to suggest that Thor could still get in the odd hit or two, but still. That's not my problem.


That Superman couldn't throw a million punches or whatever on Thor is not because Superman can't sustain uses of his speed for things as simple as punches and flurries of, it is because Superman /is not that fast/. He can zip over and hit Thor a bunch of times before Thor can react.

Again, he can do this. The question is whether or not he can do this with sufficient power to hurt thor. Superman has demonstrated the ability to move fast enough to catch SMG bullets out of the air, i.e. some pretty impressive speed while acting on low-mass, low-momentum objects. He's also shown the ability to produce enough power and momentum of his own to hurt high-mass, super-durable opponents. However, using that same level of speed with enough power and momentum to hurt a high-mass, super-durable opponent is a greater feat by many orders of magnitude than either of the first two, and doesn't follow from either of them.

Gorthaur
05-14-2014, 11:31 AM
[CONTINUED]

Nothing provided suggests that should start impairing Superman in any meaningful way or is something he couldn't keep up with doing within the context of the fight. He can dodge non area blasts from Thor a whole bunch of times and without much effort. Nothing provided suggests that should start impairing him in any meaningful way within the context of the fight.

Dodging, no. But dodging implies small, calculated movements to vacate a particular point in space, not the sort of non-stop motion that would deny Thor the ability to retaliate with, say, a bolt of lightning that strikes Superman in the back out of nowhere. At which point, he'll be vulnerable to a more direct attack.


You ask what my exception with your statements is? My exception is that you're bending over backwards to provide arguments that range from odd as far as the ramifications of them showing that indeed, punching or heat vision or dodging inbetween punches would be comparatively minor

Okay, so it is confusion about what I mean by "sustained superspeed". I hope I've made it clear by now that I'm not talking about just dodging between punches.


And especially when it's just completely unnecessary if you can all of show Thor can take the hits, then bust out area stuff.

It is extremely relevant for that argument to determine how many hits, and with how much power behind them, Thor would have to take before busting out the area stuff.

I'm actually not sure why you chose to make such a huge issue out of what was a simple suggestion that Superman's energy reserves are drained by the use of said energy, and the faster the power drain, the faster it's depleted, especially given that you don't even seem to disagree with me on the fight itself. I'm also not entirely sure what level of speed-related combat ability you want to grant Superman that you think I'm denying him, so unless you have some specific point of disagreement that you'd like to elaborate on, I'd just as soon be done with this.

Gorthaur
05-14-2014, 11:53 AM
A couple of more focused points that have, to some extent, been brought up, but not necessarily given enough attention.

1) Doomsday's heat vision lobotomy was a direct result of Doomsday thinking he could tank anything the Justice Lords could throw at him, a position that wasn't entirely unreasonable for him to take at that point. Even so, it was performed against an opponent who wasn't fighting back or trying to avoid the attack.

2) I keep bringing up the crash landing under a 500 ton robo-butt because it's really impressive. Off the top of my head, I don't recall Superman ever tanking damage on that level. Just generally, it seems to me that Thor is clearly beyond almost anyone in the DCAU in terms of physical strength and toughness. If I'm forgetting something, feel free to refresh my memory.

Surtur
05-14-2014, 12:01 PM
1) Doomsday's heat vision lobotomy was a direct result of Doomsday thinking he could tank anything the Justice Lords could throw at him, a position that wasn't entirely unreasonable for him to take at that point. Even so, it was performed against an opponent who wasn't fighting back or trying to avoid the attack.

Nobody claimed he was trying to avoid the attack though. But that doesn't magically lessen his durability.


2) I keep bringing up the crash landing under a 500 ton robo-butt because it's really impressive. Off the top of my head, I don't recall Superman ever tanking damage on that level. Just generally, it seems to me that Thor is clearly beyond almost anyone in the DCAU in terms of physical strength and toughness. If I'm forgetting something, feel free to refresh my memory.

I am really not sure why crash landing under a 500 ton robot puts Thor as significantly tougher. People keep trying to claim Thor is physically tougher, but don't seem to acknowledge he flat out consistently wasn't portrayed that way. JLU Supes can hold up an ocean liner with one hand, and he takes blows from people as strong or stronger then he is. I'm confused why Thor is now suddenly massively more durable then not only Superman, but Doomsday as well? Remind me what feats show this, because so far I've yet to see a single durability feat mentioned in this thread that suggests Thor could be unaffected by something that even Doomsday couldn't.

People have certainly mentioned a variety of things that show he is tough, but nothing to suggest that level of toughness, to where he can functionally ignore attacks like people are trying to claim.

Gorthaur
05-14-2014, 12:21 PM
Nobody claimed he was trying to avoid the attack though. But that doesn't magically lessen his durability.

No, but if something burns me, it takes me a fraction of a second to reflexively move away. I'm pretty sure Thor is faster than I am.


I am really not sure why crash landing under a 500 ton robot puts Thor as significantly tougher.

Because I don't recall Superman having durability feats on that level, obviously. I could be mistaken, it's been a while since I watched STAS in its entirety, but if he does, I'd like you to state them.

Surtur
05-14-2014, 01:02 PM
Because I don't recall Superman having durability feats on that level, obviously. I could be mistaken, it's been a while since I watched STAS in its entirety, but if he does, I'd like you to state them.

I have to then ask you what durability feats you feel you *are* recalling for Superman that suggest Thor is significantly tougher.

The dude takes hits from people as strong as he is, or stronger. That right there tells me Thor ain't significantly more durable, because he sure as hell couldn't be unaffected by such hits.

I will point out even if you watched S:TAS recently, his more impressive feats come from the JLU cartoons. If you wanted to suggest Thor is superior, but they are still in the same ballpark I'd disagree, but I wouldn't make a huge issue out of it. But it is quite another thing to suggest a significantly higher durability.

EDIT: So I'm still confused why the 500 ton thing is something worthy of being mentioned when it comes to showing significant durability advantages. You realize even people like Supergirl have done things like survive someone like Galatea wailing on them, trying to flat out kill her? So you mention something weighing 500 tons sitting on Thor(meaning it's not like that was all concentrated in one specific area of his body) but you realize Galatea, for instance, is someone who casually holds *2000* tons above her head, one handed, and did I mention casually? Supes holds up ocean liners. He takes hits from people on his level of strength, and above. So, feats like that..why are they so utterly inferior to your 500 ton feat?

Cotton
05-14-2014, 07:59 PM
Hey acecool, how have you been bro? It's me, Autumn_Knight!