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Anarchist
05-09-2014, 02:23 PM
I think its quite hard to categorize One Piece characters, so don't hate me if I unintentionally created a stomp (for whatever side).
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/122233/2864734-whitebeard_fan_art.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/0/77/502508-thing_brian_haberlin01.jpg
So, who takes it?

master of read
05-09-2014, 02:30 PM
ben's not closing the gap before he eats a earthquake to the face.

Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh
05-09-2014, 02:34 PM
ben's not closing the gap before he eats a earthquake to the face.

Or some sky to the face.

master of read
05-09-2014, 02:37 PM
Or some sky to the face.

sky can be good for the face. really digs out the pores

Hiromi
05-09-2014, 02:41 PM
Have you seen Ben? It'll take more than sky to clear those crags out, like mining equipment at least.

master of read
05-09-2014, 02:43 PM
Have you seen Ben? It'll take more than sky to clear those crags out, like mining equipment at least.

not if you are using the whitebeard formula. clears your pores and grows a beard.

Neowing
05-09-2014, 02:44 PM
Couldn't Whitebeard hurt Ben's human body through haki? Even if he can't, WB wins this.

master of read
05-09-2014, 02:49 PM
Couldn't Whitebeard hurt Ben's human body through haki? Even if he can't, WB wins this.

he wouldn't need to. he's strong enough to hurt ben or he could just keep knocking him around like a pinball with his quakes.

Dark Soul # 7
05-09-2014, 03:21 PM
In a straight up HTH fist fight, Ben would win. He's just stronger and more durable than Whitebeard.

But with the starting distance I can totally see Whitebeard having the edge with his quakes. Maybe netting him 6-7/10, Ben is one tough brawler after all.

After the fight they go out and drink large barrels of booze together.

Hazard
05-09-2014, 03:28 PM
Like Dark Soul said, Ben would win hand to hand. The guy gets into slug matches with the Hulk and manages to hang in there. He has a really high durability.

However, Whitebeard has brain quakes; so that gives him the win more often than not.

Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh
05-10-2014, 11:41 AM
Like Dark Soul said, Ben would win hand to hand. The guy gets into slug matches with the Hulk and manages to hang in there. He has a really high durability.

However, Whitebeard has brain quakes; so that gives him the win more often than not.

Whitebeard has a measure of super speed though, right?

Anarchist
05-10-2014, 01:58 PM
So I guess Whitebeard has the range advantage, but if Ben gets his hands on him the fight goes to him?

Hazard
05-10-2014, 05:39 PM
Whitebeard has a measure of super speed though, right?

In theory.

It's one of those things. High end OP characters have some measure of speed. Whitebeard, however, didn't show any. He was more of a tank with a lot of hitting power.

It's highly likely this was because the guy was not at his best by the time we meet him.


So I guess Whitebeard has the range advantage, but if Ben gets his hands on him the fight goes to him?

Actually, in close range, he has the option of making a quake right in Bens' brain if he grabs his head. It's a nasty move.

The Drunkard Kid
05-10-2014, 09:49 PM
Whitebeard should have Haki move reading (presumably how he kept stomping Ace in his sleep), and his only fight scene involved him reacting to attacks from at least Aokiji, who was able to beat pre-Water Seven Luffy like a drum. Even if they end up in grapple range, Edward should be tying Ben in a knot.

The Immortal Watch Dog
05-10-2014, 10:39 PM
How exactly is Whitebeard beating someone with the level of damage soak Thing has? And the strength to royally eff him up no less?

master of read
05-10-2014, 10:41 PM
How exactly is Whitebeard beating someone with the level of damage soak Thing has? And the strength to royally eff him up no less?

earthquake to the brain.

The Immortal Watch Dog
05-10-2014, 10:48 PM
earthquake to the brain.

And this magically ignores his durability and soak because? You say so?

master of read
05-10-2014, 10:54 PM
And this magically ignores his durability and soak because? You say so?

because despite how much soak he has, eating something like that from a guy who can create earthquakes powerful enough to tilt islands and strong enough that the tremors can be felt hundreds of miles away will be enough to hurt, if not outright kill him.

not that it would get to that since i highly doubt ben will get close to newgate before eating shockwaves to the face.

Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh
05-10-2014, 11:23 PM
And this magically ignores his durability and soak because? You say so?

Pretty much what MoR said.

There's really no way Ben's getting close enough to Newgate to do anything, before Newgate either closes and blows his head up with a brainquake; or just turns him to rubble with the aforementioned island tilting shockwaves.

To say nothing of Newgate's soak.

Dude had a hole the size of about a cannonball melted into his chest with fire coming out of the hole, and was like; "you dun' messed with the wrong old guy". Killed him in the end, but not before he broke the guy who did it to him.

master of read
05-10-2014, 11:29 PM
Pretty much what MoR said.

There's really no way Ben's getting close enough to Newgate to do anything, before Newgate either closes and blows his head up with a brainquake; or just turns him to rubble with the aforementioned island tilting shockwaves.

To say nothing of Newgate's soak.

Dude had a hole the size of about a cannonball melted into his chest with fire coming out of the hole, and was like; "you dun' messed with the wrong old guy". Killed him in the end, but not before he broke the guy who did it to him.

not to mention, he had half his head melted off by akainu's magma fist and it didnt even slow him down.
http://z.mfcdn.net/store/manga/106/59-575.0/compressed/lone_piece_575_06_07.jpg

and now that someone mentioned it, i dont know if ben can land a hit, thanks to his haki. and looking through my chapters, newgate was fast and stealthy enough to sneak up on akainu without him noticing. keep in mind that the red dog had great hearing, being able to hear the moby dick coming up the bay before any one knew about it.

edit: also found this little scene when looking through my mangas. whitebeard spears one of akainu's magma attacks and blows it out like a candle.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KRaMS53XP9k/TleZpgTXUHI/AAAAAAAACcE/E5QrvIzxVHw/005.jpg?imgmax=3000

he blew out magma.

The Drunkard Kid
05-11-2014, 04:58 AM
How exactly is Whitebeard beating someone with the level of damage soak Thing has? And the strength to royally eff him up no less?

In addition to what everyone else said, Newgate could probably manage by being strong enough that Ben would feel his strikes, and having the speed, experience, and Haki precog to pretty much land them with impunity while taking nothing in return.

And mind, we're all handwaving Ben the ability to wade through Edward's King's Haki, but it's a fair bet that Ben is badass enough to at least retain consciousness.

The Immortal Watch Dog
05-11-2014, 08:24 AM
because despite how much soak he has, eating something like that from a guy who can create earthquakes powerful enough to tilt islands and strong enough that the tremors can be felt hundreds of miles away will be enough to hurt, if not outright kill him.

not that it would get to that since i highly doubt ben will get close to newgate before eating shockwaves to the face.

yeah because tilting a small island that seems to be a mobile base and less of island is on par with trading blows with the Hulk for awhile or not turning into red mist from a blow from Gladiator.

Ben is too god damn tough to put down and WB doesn't have anything to suggest he's eating a blow from someone as strong as Thing without being mortally wounded if not outright pounded so hard his brain comes out of his head

Ben's withstood the pressures of a drill designed to bore through a planet and lolno'd it and shattered machines outputting the weight of small mountains, taken shots that would soup anyone from the HST and I'm including the ten tailed in that and gotten right back up.

He's tough, he's an extremely skilled fighter, he's experienced fighting people like whitebeard and the only advantage Ed has on him is one that does nothing to negate everything else.


Pretty much what MoR said.

Last time I debated MOR on one piece it was "Eneru can take out magneto" and "luffy can fight Hercules"

not much has changed it seems




There's really no way Ben's getting close enough to Newgate to do anything, before Newgate either closes and blows his head up with a brainquake; or just turns him to rubble with the aforementioned island tilting shockwaves.


A brainquake being a fanfiction invention that completely ignores how durable the other guy is.


to say nothing of Newgate's soak.

Is not allowing him to survive what Thing can dish out


Dude had a hole the size of about a cannonball melted into his chest with fire coming out of the hole, and was like; "you dun' messed with the wrong old guy". Killed him in the end, but not before he broke the guy who did it to him.

Yeah, that was awesome, having half his skull blown off was awesome

none of those attacks would have even phased Bens skin..that's what you're not getting here.

I'm not disputing how insanely tough Ed is, I'm saying he's a high tier from a low tier verse who doesn't have enough feats to suggest he can walk away from Ben's best.


In addition to what everyone else said, Newgate could probably manage by being strong enough that Ben would feel his strikes, and having the speed, experience, and Haki precog to pretty much land them with impunity while taking nothing in return.

And that's fine Ben can sit there take his nastiest, pull a Zaraki if he needs too, all he needs is a glancing blow to pretty much fatally maim anyone in one piece not a logia



And mind, we're all handwaving Ben the ability to wade through Edward's King's Haki, but it's a fair bet that Ben is badass enough to at least retain consciousness.

because Haki is going to affect someone as powerful, tough and insanely strong willed as Ben..Disregarding that he's hung around Skyfathers, elder gods..had one possess him and all..in so far as him being pretty decently experienced in "intimidating presences"

Hazard
05-11-2014, 08:36 AM
And mind, we're all handwaving Ben the ability to wade through Edward's King's Haki, but it's a fair bet that Ben is badass enough to at least retain consciousness.

Ben's badass enough to completely ignore it.

King Haki in general is a bit overestimated.

master of read
05-11-2014, 09:33 AM
yeah because tilting a small island that seems to be a mobile base and less of island is on par with trading blows with the Hulk for awhile or not turning into red mist from a blow from Gladiator.

Ben is too god damn tough to put down and WB doesn't have anything to suggest he's eating a blow from someone as strong as Thing without being mortally wounded if not outright pounded so hard his brain comes out of his head

Ben's withstood the pressures of a drill designed to bore through a planet and lolno'd it and shattered machines outputting the weight of small mountains, taken shots that would soup anyone from the HST and I'm including the ten tailed in that and gotten right back up.

He's tough, he's an extremely skilled fighter, he's experienced fighting people like whitebeard and the only advantage Ed has on him is one that does nothing to negate everything else.



Last time I debated MOR on one piece it was "Eneru can take out magneto" and "luffy can fight Hercules"

not much has changed it seems




A brainquake being a fanfiction invention that completely ignores how durable the other guy is.



Is not allowing him to survive what Thing can dish out


Yeah, that was awesome, having half his skull blown off was awesome

none of those attacks would have even phased Bens skin..that's what you're not getting here.

I'm not disputing how insanely tough Ed is, I'm saying he's a high tier from a low tier verse who doesn't have enough feats to suggest he can walk away from Ben's best.



And that's fine Ben can sit there take his nastiest, pull a Zaraki if he needs too, all he needs is a glancing blow to pretty much fatally maim anyone in one piece not a logia



because Haki is going to affect someone as powerful, tough and insanely strong willed as Ben..Disregarding that he's hung around Skyfathers, elder gods..had one possess him and all..in so far as him being pretty decently experienced in "intimidating presences"

marineford is not a mobile island. like, at all. he tilted the island by pulling the air.

you keep saying he's too tough to for whitebeard to hurt. you haven't really shown anything to suggest he could shrug off a earthquake to the brain, a move that could one shot a giant vice admiral. not that it matter since not only is WB a bit faster than him but he has combat precog, which means ben isn't landing a shot on him.

and as for the "luffy vs. herc" thing, as it stands, unless something about herc has changed since the last time he was brought up, luffy has a good chance of beating him now.

master of read
05-11-2014, 09:34 AM
Ben's badass enough to completely ignore it.

King Haki in general is a bit overestimated.

me personally, i dont really bring up king haki unless its in scenario. i dont think its very usable in one on one fights, considering who they are put up against.

Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh
05-11-2014, 12:00 PM
and as for the "luffy vs. herc" thing, as it stands, unless something about herc has changed since the last time he was brought up, luffy has a good chance of beating him now.

Say what, now?

Anarchist
05-11-2014, 01:43 PM
Yeah, really, I mean how is Luffy going to hurt a solid Middle-Tierish Class 100 guy?

And how Eneru could take out Magneto (I mean seriously, Electricity against Magneto?) is also completely beyond me.

master of read
05-11-2014, 04:29 PM
Say what, now?

if i'm wrong, i'm wrong. where does ol' herc stand nowadays?

The Immortal Watch Dog
05-11-2014, 06:58 PM
marineford is not a mobile island. like, at all. he tilted the island by pulling the air.

Aokiji moved marine ford closer to the new world, I am pretty sure its a mobile island..not that it matters


you keep saying he's too tough to for whitebeard to hurt. you haven't really shown anything to suggest he could shrug off a earthquake to the brain, a move that could one shot a giant vice admiral.

So basically the fact that he can trade blows with the Hulk, get beat on by the champion of the universe, fight Namor and not be turned into pudding by a liver shot from Gladz is not enough to prove he can lolno anything in one piece...because apparently Edward hits harder than Simon, Gladz, Stark, Namor, Blastaar and everyone else who has wailed on Grimm?



not that it matter since not only is WB a bit faster than him but he has combat precog, which means ben isn't landing a shot on him.

I mean, I could bring up Ben reacting to missiles and stuff but I don't feel the need too since WB can't in the slightest actually hurt him..and All Ben has to do is graze him to murder him


and as for the "luffy vs. herc" thing, as it stands, unless something about herc has changed since the last time he was brought up, luffy has a good chance of beating him now.

you'd be wrong, absolutely unbelievably wrong


Yeah, really, I mean how is Luffy going to hurt a solid Middle-Tierish Class 100 guy?.

Midteirish? guys traded blows with Thor, matched him if not slightly exceeded him in strength, dudes durable enough to eat those blows and all

Hercules can stand there and take everything the holy shounen trinity throws at him and be..annoyed mildly, there is a staggering amount of biased in thinking Luffy can do much more than become a stain of bone fragments and blood on his body

Guy1
05-11-2014, 07:05 PM
Hercules can stand there and take everything the holy shounen trinity throws at him and be..annoyed mildly

To be fair, Naruto's gotten utterly, utterly insane recently.
Not to mention the gajillion powers the Sharingan has, including dimension dumping and reality warping.

Jcogginsa
05-11-2014, 07:10 PM
Aokiji moved marine ford closer to the new world, I am pretty sure its a mobile island..not that it matters


1.It was Akainu
2. He did not move marineford. He designated a different HQ because Marineford got the shit wrecked out of it. If Marine ford was a ship, it would have sank when Whitebeard Punched it in fucking half

master of read
05-11-2014, 07:12 PM
Aokiji moved marine ford closer to the new world, I am pretty sure its a mobile island..not that it matters



So basically the fact that he can trade blows with the Hulk, get beat on by the champion of the universe, fight Namor and not be turned into pudding by a liver shot from Gladz is not enough to prove he can lolno anything in one piece...because apparently Edward hits harder than Simon, Gladz, Stark, Namor, Blastaar and everyone else who has wailed on Grimm?




I mean, I could bring up Ben reacting to missiles and stuff but I don't feel the need too since WB can't in the slightest actually hurt him..and All Ben has to do is graze him to murder him


you'd be wrong, absolutely unbelievably wrong



Midteirish? guys traded blows with Thor, matched him if not slightly exceeded him in strength, dudes durable enough to eat those blows and all

Hercules can stand there and take everything the holy shounen trinity throws at him and be..annoyed mildly, there is a staggering amount of biased in thinking Luffy can do much more than become a stain of bone fragments and blood on his body



nope. the island is still there. the hq just moved to the new world.


i'm still not seeing nothing to say that he could just no sell a earthquake to the brain. not that it matters since ben isn't touching whitebeard in any kind of way while WB will be hitting him with impunity or just simply send him flying into the sky. i'm not saying he'll one shot ben or even 2 shot him. it will take a while to wear him down and with the amount of destructive output he can throw out, ben will go down and there really is much that ben can do about it.

master of read
05-11-2014, 07:14 PM
To be fair, Naruto's gotten utterly, utterly insane recently.
Not to mention the gajillion powers the Sharingan has, including dimension dumping and reality warping.

yeah, naruto is stupid powerful now.


1.It was Akainu
2. He did not move marineford. He designated a different HQ because Marineford got the shit wrecked out of it. If Marine ford was a ship, it would have sank when Whitebeard Punched it in fucking half

the closest thing to one piece had to a moving island was thriller bark.

The Immortal Watch Dog
05-11-2014, 08:08 PM
To be fair, Naruto's gotten utterly, utterly insane recently.
Not to mention the gajillion powers the Sharingan has, including dimension dumping and reality warping.

Those offensive powers aren't enough to actually do anything to someone like Herc though and the reality warping is on a low scale, it kinda falls into the old "prove this character can hax X when X's durability feats are this, this and this" we used use to batter down EU fans when they tried to claim Sidious could force hax a class 100 (and to be fair, EU palps does have better feats than even the current sutff nardo does)


nope. the island is still there. the hq just moved to the new world.


i'm still not seeing nothing to say that he could just no sell a earthquake to the brain. not that it matters since ben isn't touching whitebeard in any kind of way while WB will be hitting him with impunity or just simply send him flying into the sky. i'm not saying he'll one shot ben or even 2 shot him. it will take a while to wear him down and with the amount of destructive output he can throw out, ben will go down and there really is much that ben can do about it.

You know I'm pretty sure dismissing feats and continuing to make a claim that was debunked multiple pages ago constitutes stone walling a debate with biased..

that's always been against the rules here

Hazard
05-11-2014, 08:19 PM
yeah, naruto is stupid powerful now.

Herc could still handle the raw force just fine. Maybe a little toasty but that's it.

It's the soul ripping and other stuff that does him.

master of read
05-11-2014, 08:22 PM
Herc could still handle the raw force just fine. Maybe a little toasty but that's it.

It's the soul ripping and other stuff that does him.

never said he could beat herc. just said naruto is stupid powerful now. but yeah, even then he'd have a hard time tagging anyone now since everyone is too fast for him to tag.

Guy1
05-11-2014, 08:42 PM
Alright guys, I want everybody to take a few steps back and chill. Now, nothing too bad is happening right now, but keep in mind that the rules are stricter now. So please, both sides chill out and no accusations.

Now, as for Thing VS Whitebeard, let's do what we always do.
List the best feats for Whitebeard's strength and quakes and what he's done to people with them and see how they compare to Thing's best durability feats. We can decide then.
Sound fair to everybody?

The Drunkard Kid
05-11-2014, 08:44 PM
Wait, since when it's Ben a moderate to high end class 100, because that's the level needed to hang with a wet Namor or a seriously angry Hulk without it being SMvsFL. Sure, Hulk starts out at about Ben's level, but when he gets pissed he jumps way past that. And everyone from Storm to Spider-Man have taken punches from Hulk without being splattered mostly because Marvel doesn't want to have to find a way for Wolverine and the like to suddenly come back after being punched into space.

When Ben starts lifting billions of tons regularly or causing global tsunamis from his strikes, then his fights with Wet Namor and Angry Hulk will be consistent with his normal portrayal. And then he can get a power up that makes him the millions/billions of times stronger than that level that he would have to be to even be within eyeshot of Gladiator's planet busting league.

Hazard
05-11-2014, 08:52 PM
The Class 100 comment was referring to Herc.

The Drunkard Kid
05-11-2014, 09:27 PM
The Class 100 comment was referring to Herc.

I was referring more to using Ben's ability to not be turned to paste by the likes of Namor, Hulk and flipping Gladiator as clean durability feats instead of things that have also been done by Wolverine because comics.

As for Luffy or Naruto vs. Hercules (MU), then assuming that Herc can no sell blasts that overwhelm 5 mountain vaping attacks at once, both guys (and FG Ichigo for the full HST) have enough speed and strength/firepower to smack Herc into orbit before he even realizes that the fight had started. The Eneru vs. Magneto thing, IIRC, was based on Mags not being fast enough to activate his shields before the Luffy blitzing Eneru splatters him with a lovetap.

master of read
05-11-2014, 09:39 PM
I was referring more to using Ben's ability to not be turned to paste by the likes of Namor, Hulk and flipping Gladiator as clean durability feats instead of things that have also been done by Wolverine because comics.

As for Luffy or Naruto vs. Hercules (MU), then assuming that Herc can no sell blasts that overwhelm 5 mountain vaping attacks at once, both guys (and FG Ichigo for the full HST) have enough speed and strength/firepower to smack Herc into orbit before he even realizes that the fight had started. The Eneru vs. Magneto thing, IIRC, was based on Mags not being fast enough to activate his shields before the Luffy blitzing Eneru splatters him with a lovetap.

honestly, i didnt even remember eneru vs. magneto until it was brought up.

Guy Smiley
05-11-2014, 11:14 PM
Sure, Hulk starts out at about Ben's level, but when he gets pissed he jumps way past that.

Nah, IIRC Hulk's a Class 100 even at base. Thing's Class 80. Thing can trade hits with base Hulk, though sure. And Base Hulk isn't shattering entire islands and the oceans around them. I really can't see Ben doing all that well once Hulk gets angry enough to hit island-shattering range himself. (Pretty much agreeing with what you just said.)

So yeah. I can see Whitebeard just quaking away at the bell, and Thing being thrown around and unable to close in as he gets eventually worn down.

The Immortal Watch Dog
05-12-2014, 10:42 AM
I was referring more to using Ben's ability to not be turned to paste by the likes of Namor, Hulk and flipping Gladiator as clean durability feats instead of things that have also been done by Wolverine because comics.

.

So we're ignoring over four decades of Thing's durability and soak showings because you don't like it? Simply put that's where his toughness operates. physically he is below that but his best strength feats are still far above anything Whitebeard or really anyone in the HST has done.

As to the Magz fight..it's worth bringing up for the misconduct and biased of the OP side. Conduct which has not changed since then

Guy1
05-12-2014, 11:31 AM
So we're ignoring over four decades of Thing's durability and soak showings because you don't like it? Simply put that's where his toughness operates. physically he is below that but his best strength feats are still far above anything Whitebeard or really anyone in the HST has done.

As to the Magz fight..it's worth bringing up for the misconduct and biased of the OP side. Conduct which has not changed since then

Watchdog that's enough.
That old thread is gone. Lost with the reboot. This is a new CBR with new rules and standards. It's a fresh start with everybody. Stop it now.

Dark Soul # 7
05-12-2014, 11:50 AM
yeah because tilting a small island that seems to be a mobile base and less of island is on par with trading blows with the Hulk for awhile or not turning into red mist from a blow from Gladiator.
As others have pointed out, it's actually pretty big island. The place where the whole took place is basically just the front of the whole place and that had plenty of room for over 100.000 thousand people to duke it out, and a mega-giant to lay around. Behind that there's an entire city for the families of the soldiers. And Whitebeard didn't just tilt that the island, he basically made the sea for several miles out do the tango.

Ben's withstood the pressures of a drill designed to bore through a planet and lolno'd it and shattered machines outputting the weight of small mountains, taken shots that would soup anyone from the HST and I'm including the ten tailed in that and gotten right back up.
Did the drill actually bore through a planet, like did it have the feats for it? And the Juubi can shrugg off its own blasts, which are of the mountain range busting quality. Has Ben really just shrugged off something on that level?

Honestly asking here BTW, because I haven't seen Ben operate on those power levels.

Hazard
05-12-2014, 11:55 AM
Did the drill actually bore through a planet, like did it have the feats for it? And the Juubi can shrugg off its own blasts, which are of the arguably country busting quality. Has Ben really just shrugged off something on that level?


Added for... the sake of it really.

The things Juubi shoots like spitballs and zero charge time are in the mountain range... range.

The charged shots that are of the same size as him should be way beyond that. We never get to actually see them blow up without something containing them or sending them really far away, but they should be in that range.

Though, as Sharp would say, mileage may vary.

Daenarys Stormborn
05-12-2014, 12:11 PM
I was referring more to using Ben's ability to not be turned to paste by the likes of Namor, Hulk and flipping Gladiator as clean durability feats instead of things that have also been done by Wolverine because comics.

As for Luffy or Naruto vs. Hercules (MU), then assuming that Herc can no sell blasts that overwhelm 5 mountain vaping attacks at once, both guys (and FG Ichigo for the full HST) have enough speed and strength/firepower to smack Herc into orbit before he even realizes that the fight had started. The Eneru vs. Magneto thing, IIRC, was based on Mags not being fast enough to activate his shields before the Luffy blitzing Eneru splatters him with a lovetap.

Ben has always had much better durability than he has strength. The Thing matching anyone of those people in strength would probably fall under pis or smvfl, but taking shots from Hulk or Namor and not being koed seems par for the course. Gladiator probably ends up as smvsfl since Hulk isn't thought of as anywhere in his league though. For Namor, The Thing's first 2 encounters With Namor were him taking multiple shots from the guy..I think it has happened many times after that as well.

As for Wb and brain quake, that would require Wb to get his hands on the Thing. The other travelling air quakes and such clearly didn't do as much damage. Akainu was out from being punched directly, but all the admirals haki re-directed air quakes. Also, WB technically has no speed feats and the implied haki pre-cog was never demonstrated by him on a level that would help against anyone in combat.

Jcogginsa
05-12-2014, 12:21 PM
apparently, Whitebeard old age pretty much destroyed Whitebeard's dodging capability. That chest stab Squardo gave him is commented on as something he could have dodged earlier in his career

Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh
05-12-2014, 12:28 PM
apparently, Whitebeard old age pretty much destroyed Whitebeard's dodging capability. That chest stab Squardo gave him is commented on as something he could have dodged earlier in his career

When you're old, moving is a luxury.

Hazard
05-12-2014, 12:30 PM
apparently, Whitebeard old age pretty much destroyed Whitebeard's dodging capability. That chest stab Squardo gave him is commented on as something he could have dodged earlier in his career

Well yeah, the guy was slapping around Ace while pretty much asleep before.

Dark Soul # 7
05-12-2014, 12:30 PM
When you're old, moving is a luxury.
72 years old and sick.

I'm kinda hoping for a flashback of Ed and Roger's battles where they're both shown to be zipping like G2 Ruffy.

Melchior
05-12-2014, 03:54 PM
While I would consider myself relatively knowledgable about both parties, I do have one question. While I know Ben can take much more than he can dish out, how is his internal constitution? That will be the kicker - Whitebeard's "Earthquake in your head" punch gets a lot of mileage over the fact that it is easy to cause a concussion that way, sense the attack is occurring within the body. Are there any particular instances of someone hurting Ben by bypassing his rocky outer body?

master of read
05-12-2014, 03:57 PM
Well yeah, the guy was slapping around Ace while pretty much asleep before.

and he was still quick enough to sneak up on akainu without him knowing about it until someone told him to watch out. keep in mind, akainu has some pretty good hearing.

The Drunkard Kid
05-12-2014, 05:21 PM
Ben has always had much better durability than he has strength. The Thing matching anyone of those people in strength would probably fall under pis or smvfl, but taking shots from Hulk or Namor and not being koed seems par for the course. Gladiator probably ends up as smvsfl since Hulk isn't thought of as anywhere in his league though. For Namor, The Thing's first 2 encounters With Namor were him taking multiple shots from the guy..I think it has happened many times after that as well.

As for Wb and brain quake, that would require Wb to get his hands on the Thing. The other travelling air quakes and such clearly didn't do as much damage. Akainu was out from being punched directly, but all the admirals haki re-directed air quakes. Also, WB technically has no speed feats and the implied haki pre-cog was never demonstrated by him on a level that would help against anyone in combat.

Yeah, being more durable than he is strong makes sense, but to be sufficiently durable to make Wet Namor and an island busting Hulk need more than one serious hit to KO/explode him would also make him so durable that anyone below class 100 would break their hands on him before making him blink. Now, I don't follow the FF too much, but does he normally do things like ignore punches from She Hulk or alternate universe Ben Grimms?

I was looking through WB's few appearances, and here's the kind of stuff he was doing:

Crossing blades with Shanks parted the clouds above them;

Punked Ace with casual ease, repeatedly, even when attacked while he was asleep/not looking in his direction (Ace being a guy that was shortlisted to be a Shichibukai and was dead even with Jinbei after 5 days straight of battling);

Casually created seaquakes strong enough to create 2 tsunamis that each towered over the battlefield, which included several hills/mountains and tons of giants;

Was able to create air-quakes that intercepted Aokiji's projectiles and even Aokiji himself, Aokiji being a Haki user that had just gone from sitting in a chair at the execution site to being hundreds of feet in the air (from where he froze both of the aforementioned tsunamis instantly) pretty much instantly;

Was able to see and nonchalantly react to attacks from Mihawk and Kizaru, both of which were shown to be ridiculously fast even by the standards of high end bullet timers like that era's Luffy and Zoro (he didn't counter them, but that's because he was letting his subordinates do it for him);

Casually caught a chunk of magma with his bisento and blew it out like a candle (see prior scan);

While watching Oars, Jr. die, backhand air-quaked a featless giant Vice Admiral's weapon without looking, caught him by the head and casually skull/brainquaked him down instantly;

The earthquakes he was causing were shown to affect islands miles away, long before he got close to going full out;

Was able to sense Crocodile about to attack him from behind, though he didn't seem to be bothered to defend himself before Luffy intervened and then he proceeded to casually chat with him instead;

He did get sucker stabbed by Ouzugumo, but that was from a normally loyal and beloved son who had just been chatting with him right before he stabbed him (a point against Haki-precog, though being done by another famous pirate captain who is extremely familiar with Whitebeard and strong enough to break out of the hold of a pissed off Marco who had himself been going toe to toe with friggin' Kizaru earlier; everyone was surprised that Whitebeard had gotten so ill that he couldn't dodge a surprise attack from someone of that level who had attacked from surprise, though);

Subsequently, he created air-quakes that shattered both of the massive frozen tidal waves (admittedly, one of them was sliced in half by Mihawk earlier, but that still left the other intact);

Casually caught a double-handed slash by some giant called, appropriately, John Giant with a one-handed block using his bisento, then grabbed the air and created a quake strong enough to tilt the entire flipping island, including the waters around it, notably;

http://i.imgur.com/PJaPG.png

He then jumped into the air and repeatedly caused quakes inside John Giant's gut without touching him, causing him to gush blood from the mouth and drop, while also shaking the entire area except for the execution platform itself where the three Admirals are doing... something, probably Haki related, to hold off that power;


He was unable to break whatever material the sea walls were made of, though since it caused his powers to bounce back, it might have something weird about it, especially considering how much Seastone and Vegapunk junk the Marines throw into their tech (it did dent notably, though);

He sent an entire crowd flying with a earthquake enhanced bisento slash;

No-sold being frozen solid and broke out using his quakes, then shanked Aokiji before he could react and held him in place for Diamond Jose/Jaws to shoulder check him;

Caught Luffy with his off hand when Kizaru sent him flying with a kick (its unclear if Kizaru kicked him towards Whitebeard, or if Whitebeard intercepted);

Matched Akainu strike for strike for a bit before casually backhanding a magma dog that was sent at him while he was focusing on rousing his troops against Garp (it should be noted that every attack is still causing massive quake damage to the island, which is why Akainu was intercepting him at that point);

His illness (possibly also stab-wound, but illness was the primary stated reason) caused him to collapse to his knees puking blood and then Akainu shoves a lava fist into his chest and a bunch of Vice Admirals (I think) stab and shoot him while he's still wheezing for breath and unable to move, then when he gets his wind back, he tells his crew not to interfere and takes out all the people attacking him (except Akainu, who wasn't there anymore for some reason) with one swing of his Bisento;

He didn't think he could cross the remaining distance to Ace before two marines could decapitate him, and he also seemed to forget about using the King's Haki to KO them himself like Luffy proceeded to do;

He continued to take out crowds of people with individual swings;

He then intercepted Kizaru before he could fully turn to light and stop Luffy (to put this in perspective, Kizaru did the same thing earlier, AFTER Luffy had already rushed past him in a full out Gear 2nd Blitz, calling Luffy slow in the process);

He almost does it again, but this time Kizaru twisted out of the way and pierced his chest with a laser;

Stop a massive charging battleship with one hand while still gasping for breath;

Severely damaged Marine HQ with a single quake;

Still sent crowds flying with each swing, but there are massive explosions accompanying them now;

While pretty much in the process of dying already, was able to get behind Akainu (who had just been going toe to toe with the likes of Ace, Jinbei, Marco and the flower swordsman who was keeping up with Mihawk earlier) and, as an earlier scan showed, stomp him into the ground and counterattack after having half his head melted off (the counter attack basically KO'd Akainu in one shot and create a massive trench that split Marine HQ and a plaza large enough to hold their giant-filled battle in twain from the shockwave);

And finally, still sent crowds flying, he then he proceeded to monster all over the Luffy/Ace class Blackbeard, slashing him even without his powers and then brainquaking him, though he somehow survived it long enough for a bunch of level six criminals to gang up and finish killing a Whitebeard who was almost dead already, though he managed to get in a world changing monologue before he croaked on his feet.


Also, after Blackbeard finished leveling Marine HQ with one last shot of Whitebeard's Goro Goro no Mi, Sengoku specifically notes that Marineford the island itself is important for being an unmoving island almost at the center of the world (map, presumably).

Hey, weird thought: We usually grant that Armament Haki will let people hit elementals on the grounds that it works against Logia. What about people who are permanently another element like Luffy-type Paramecia? I vote that we just assume that a punch from Haki won't affect Ben as though he was a normal human being on the grounds that trying to figure out the rules of how this would work kinda makes my head hurt.

The Drunkard Kid
05-12-2014, 05:22 PM
Okay, tl;dr:

When two guys who are probably strong enough to punch one another into orbit fight, I bet on the guy with the combat precog, speed sufficient to keep up with Akainu/Kizaru/Aokiji while basically in the middle of dying, and the ability to smack people around from range and has deliberately used his powers to screw with his opponent's footing to let him land free shots.

master of read
05-12-2014, 05:33 PM
Yeah, being more durable than he is strong makes sense, but to be sufficiently durable to make Wet Namor and an island busting Hulk need more than one serious hit to KO/explode him would also make him so durable that anyone below class 100 would break their hands on him before making him blink. Now, I don't follow the FF too much, but does he normally do things like ignore punches from She Hulk or alternate universe Ben Grimms?

I was looking through WB's few appearances, and here's the kind of stuff he was doing:

Crossing blades with Shanks parted the clouds above them;

Punked Ace with casual ease, repeatedly, even when attacked while he was asleep/not looking in his direction (Ace being a guy that was shortlisted to be a Shichibukai and was dead even with Jinbei after 5 days straight of battling);

Casually created seaquakes strong enough to create 2 tsunamis that each towered over the battlefield, which included several hills/mountains and tons of giants;

Was able to create air-quakes that intercepted Aokiji's projectiles and even Aokiji himself, Aokiji being a Haki user that had just gone from sitting in a chair at the execution site to being hundreds of feet in the air (from where he froze both of the aforementioned tsunamis instantly) pretty much instantly;

Was able to see and nonchalantly react to attacks from Mihawk and Kizaru, both of which were shown to be ridiculously fast even by the standards of high end bullet timers like that era's Luffy and Zoro (he didn't counter them, but that's because he was letting his subordinates do it for him);

Casually caught a chunk of magma with his bisento and blew it out like a candle (see prior scan);

While watching Oars, Jr. die, backhand air-quaked a featless giant Vice Admiral's weapon without looking, caught him by the head and casually skull/brainquaked him down instantly;

The earthquakes he was causing were shown to affect islands miles away, long before he got close to going full out;

Was able to sense Crocodile about to attack him from behind, though he didn't seem to be bothered to defend himself before Luffy intervened and then he proceeded to casually chat with him instead;

He did get sucker stabbed by Ouzugumo, but that was from a normally loyal and beloved son who had just been chatting with him right before he stabbed him (a point against Haki-precog, though being done by another famous pirate captain who is extremely familiar with Whitebeard and strong enough to break out of the hold of a pissed off Marco who had himself been going toe to toe with friggin' Kizaru earlier; everyone was surprised that Whitebeard had gotten so ill that he couldn't dodge a surprise attack from someone of that level who had attacked from surprise, though);

Subsequently, he created air-quakes that shattered both of the massive frozen tidal waves (admittedly, one of them was sliced in half by Mihawk earlier, but that still left the other intact);

Casually caught a double-handed slash by some giant called, appropriately, John Giant with a one-handed block using his bisento, then grabbed the air and created a quake strong enough to tilt the entire flipping island, including the waters around it, notably;

http://i.imgur.com/PJaPG.png

He then jumped into the air and repeatedly caused quakes inside John Giant's gut without touching him, causing him to gush blood from the mouth and drop, while also shaking the entire area except for the execution platform itself where the three Admirals are doing... something, probably Haki related, to hold off that power;


He was unable to break whatever material the sea walls were made of, though since it caused his powers to bounce back, it might have something weird about it, especially considering how much Seastone and Vegapunk junk the Marines throw into their tech (it did dent notably, though);

He sent an entire crowd flying with a earthquake enhanced bisento slash;

No-sold being frozen solid and broke out using his quakes, then shanked Aokiji before he could react and held him in place for Diamond Jose/Jaws to shoulder check him;

Caught Luffy with his off hand when Kizaru sent him flying with a kick (its unclear if Kizaru kicked him towards Whitebeard, or if Whitebeard intercepted);

Matched Akainu strike for strike for a bit before casually backhanding a magma dog that was sent at him while he was focusing on rousing his troops against Garp (it should be noted that every attack is still causing massive quake damage to the island, which is why Akainu was intercepting him at that point);

His illness (possibly also stab-wound, but illness was the primary stated reason) caused him to collapse to his knees puking blood and then Akainu shoves a lava fist into his chest and a bunch of Vice Admirals (I think) stab and shoot him while he's still wheezing for breath and unable to move, then when he gets his wind back, he tells his crew not to interfere and takes out all the people attacking him (except Akainu, who wasn't there anymore for some reason) with one swing of his Bisento;

He didn't think he could cross the remaining distance to Ace before two marines could decapitate him, and he also seemed to forget about using the King's Haki to KO them himself like Luffy proceeded to do;

He continued to take out crowds of people with individual swings;

He then intercepted Kizaru before he could fully turn to light and stop Luffy (to put this in perspective, Kizaru did the same thing earlier, AFTER Luffy had already rushed past him in a full out Gear 2nd Blitz, calling Luffy slow in the process);

He almost does it again, but this time Kizaru twisted out of the way and pierced his chest with a laser;

Stop a massive charging battleship with one hand while still gasping for breath;

Severely damaged Marine HQ with a single quake;

Still sent crowds flying with each swing, but there are massive explosions accompanying them now;

While pretty much in the process of dying already, was able to get behind Akainu (who had just been going toe to toe with the likes of Ace, Jinbei, Marco and the flower swordsman who was keeping up with Mihawk earlier) and, as an earlier scan showed, stomp him into the ground and counterattack after having half his head melted off (the counter attack basically KO'd Akainu in one shot and create a massive trench that split Marine HQ and a plaza large enough to hold their giant-filled battle in twain from the shockwave);

And finally, still sent crowds flying, he then he proceeded to monster all over the Luffy/Ace class Blackbeard, slashing him even without his powers and then brainquaking him, though he somehow survived it long enough for a bunch of level six criminals to gang up and finish killing a Whitebeard who was almost dead already, though he managed to get in a world changing monologue before he croaked on his feet.


Also, after Blackbeard finished leveling Marine HQ with one last shot of Whitebeard's Goro Goro no Mi, Sengoku specifically notes that Marineford the island itself is important for being an unmoving island almost at the center of the world (map, presumably).

Hey, weird thought: We usually grant that Armament Haki will let people hit elementals on the grounds that it works against Logia. What about people who are permanently another element like Luffy-type Paramecia? I vote that we just assume that a punch from Haki won't affect Ben as though he was a normal human being on the grounds that trying to figure out the rules of how this would work kinda makes my head hurt.

to the last thought, luffy has been hurt by armament haki attacks that either bypassed his powers (and inherit blunt force soak/immunity) or negated them outright.

but i will agree with you. i cant really say if haki strikes will do the same to ben as they do to luffy so i havent really factored it into my thought process.

Little_Mac
05-13-2014, 07:58 AM
When you're old, moving is a luxury.

Honestly, that's the key. I'm reading arguments about the Thing's durability. How is he getting close enough to even punch Whitebeard?

The Thing doesn't have enough speed before an earthquake is separating him and Whitebeard. I'm thinking that one of Whitebeard punches is capable of stopping a Thunderclap. Jumping in the air against Whitebeard is begging for a spear slash knocking him into that chasm. Once he is in the chasm, he's getting buried.

Daenarys Stormborn
05-13-2014, 08:10 AM
Yeah, being more durable than he is strong makes sense, but to be sufficiently durable to make Wet Namor and an island busting Hulk need more than one serious hit to KO/explode him would also make him so durable that anyone below class 100 would break their hands on him before making him blink. Now, I don't follow the FF too much, but does he normally do things like ignore punches from She Hulk or alternate universe Ben Grimms?

I was looking through WB's few appearances, and here's the kind of stuff he was doing:

Crossing blades with Shanks parted the clouds above them;

Punked Ace with casual ease, repeatedly, even when attacked while he was asleep/not looking in his direction (Ace being a guy that was shortlisted to be a Shichibukai and was dead even with Jinbei after 5 days straight of battling);

Casually created seaquakes strong enough to create 2 tsunamis that each towered over the battlefield, which included several hills/mountains and tons of giants;

Was able to create air-quakes that intercepted Aokiji's projectiles and even Aokiji himself, Aokiji being a Haki user that had just gone from sitting in a chair at the execution site to being hundreds of feet in the air (from where he froze both of the aforementioned tsunamis instantly) pretty much instantly;

Was able to see and nonchalantly react to attacks from Mihawk and Kizaru, both of which were shown to be ridiculously fast even by the standards of high end bullet timers like that era's Luffy and Zoro (he didn't counter them, but that's because he was letting his subordinates do it for him);

Casually caught a chunk of magma with his bisento and blew it out like a candle (see prior scan);

While watching Oars, Jr. die, backhand air-quaked a featless giant Vice Admiral's weapon without looking, caught him by the head and casually skull/brainquaked him down instantly;

The earthquakes he was causing were shown to affect islands miles away, long before he got close to going full out;

Was able to sense Crocodile about to attack him from behind, though he didn't seem to be bothered to defend himself before Luffy intervened and then he proceeded to casually chat with him instead;

He did get sucker stabbed by Ouzugumo, but that was from a normally loyal and beloved son who had just been chatting with him right before he stabbed him (a point against Haki-precog, though being done by another famous pirate captain who is extremely familiar with Whitebeard and strong enough to break out of the hold of a pissed off Marco who had himself been going toe to toe with friggin' Kizaru earlier; everyone was surprised that Whitebeard had gotten so ill that he couldn't dodge a surprise attack from someone of that level who had attacked from surprise, though);

Subsequently, he created air-quakes that shattered both of the massive frozen tidal waves (admittedly, one of them was sliced in half by Mihawk earlier, but that still left the other intact);

Casually caught a double-handed slash by some giant called, appropriately, John Giant with a one-handed block using his bisento, then grabbed the air and created a quake strong enough to tilt the entire flipping island, including the waters around it, notably;

http://i.imgur.com/PJaPG.png

He then jumped into the air and repeatedly caused quakes inside John Giant's gut without touching him, causing him to gush blood from the mouth and drop, while also shaking the entire area except for the execution platform itself where the three Admirals are doing... something, probably Haki related, to hold off that power;


He was unable to break whatever material the sea walls were made of, though since it caused his powers to bounce back, it might have something weird about it, especially considering how much Seastone and Vegapunk junk the Marines throw into their tech (it did dent notably, though);

He sent an entire crowd flying with a earthquake enhanced bisento slash;

No-sold being frozen solid and broke out using his quakes, then shanked Aokiji before he could react and held him in place for Diamond Jose/Jaws to shoulder check him;

Caught Luffy with his off hand when Kizaru sent him flying with a kick (its unclear if Kizaru kicked him towards Whitebeard, or if Whitebeard intercepted);

Matched Akainu strike for strike for a bit before casually backhanding a magma dog that was sent at him while he was focusing on rousing his troops against Garp (it should be noted that every attack is still causing massive quake damage to the island, which is why Akainu was intercepting him at that point);

His illness (possibly also stab-wound, but illness was the primary stated reason) caused him to collapse to his knees puking blood and then Akainu shoves a lava fist into his chest and a bunch of Vice Admirals (I think) stab and shoot him while he's still wheezing for breath and unable to move, then when he gets his wind back, he tells his crew not to interfere and takes out all the people attacking him (except Akainu, who wasn't there anymore for some reason) with one swing of his Bisento;

He didn't think he could cross the remaining distance to Ace before two marines could decapitate him, and he also seemed to forget about using the King's Haki to KO them himself like Luffy proceeded to do;

He continued to take out crowds of people with individual swings;

He then intercepted Kizaru before he could fully turn to light and stop Luffy (to put this in perspective, Kizaru did the same thing earlier, AFTER Luffy had already rushed past him in a full out Gear 2nd Blitz, calling Luffy slow in the process);

He almost does it again, but this time Kizaru twisted out of the way and pierced his chest with a laser;

Stop a massive charging battleship with one hand while still gasping for breath;

Severely damaged Marine HQ with a single quake;

Still sent crowds flying with each swing, but there are massive explosions accompanying them now;

While pretty much in the process of dying already, was able to get behind Akainu (who had just been going toe to toe with the likes of Ace, Jinbei, Marco and the flower swordsman who was keeping up with Mihawk earlier) and, as an earlier scan showed, stomp him into the ground and counterattack after having half his head melted off (the counter attack basically KO'd Akainu in one shot and create a massive trench that split Marine HQ and a plaza large enough to hold their giant-filled battle in twain from the shockwave);

And finally, still sent crowds flying, he then he proceeded to monster all over the Luffy/Ace class Blackbeard, slashing him even without his powers and then brainquaking him, though he somehow survived it long enough for a bunch of level six criminals to gang up and finish killing a Whitebeard who was almost dead already, though he managed to get in a world changing monologue before he croaked on his feet.


Also, after Blackbeard finished leveling Marine HQ with one last shot of Whitebeard's Goro Goro no Mi, Sengoku specifically notes that Marineford the island itself is important for being an unmoving island almost at the center of the world (map, presumably).

Hey, weird thought: We usually grant that Armament Haki will let people hit elementals on the grounds that it works against Logia. What about people who are permanently another element like Luffy-type Paramecia? I vote that we just assume that a punch from Haki won't affect Ben as though he was a normal human being on the grounds that trying to figure out the rules of how this would work kinda makes my head hurt.

Thing has fought Hulk like over a dozen times, and Namor like half a dozen, I think. So it should make perfect sense he is able to survived their hits. From the fights I've read and can recall off hand, he is usually able to take multiple hits from them, and is almost universally presented as weaker than them physically. Regarding Gladiator, I looked into him a bit. In hindsight, I don't think the Thing surviving a hit from the guy would be smvfl because I am not (from the scans I saw) convinced the gladiator is as strong as I've often seen referred. Gladiator aside, the Thing taking hits from Hulk/Namor seems average for him...as does surviving other class 100 hits. Thing has always been a durability beast above all else. If I am proven wrong then so be it...

As for She Hulk, I have no idea what she is capable of. As for anyone below Class 100 breaking their fist or something, I have rarely read a comic where Brick of decent strength (though not class 100) breaks their fist against anything..much less another fighter.

Regarding Wb, I don't think his durability is up to par with taking any hits from Ben. Likewise, his non earthquake strength feats weren't even more impressive than Jozu or Garp (1 on 1 vs with power-scaling aside). So if it gets into close quarter Ben should win. From long-range, I doubt WB earthquake hitting you in the air causes anywhere near the damage of when he hits you directly, and doubt the former would be enough to knock thing out. So...maybe thing can't get close for awhile, but WB gets tired given his old age...GURA GURA GURA! So cometh Clobbering time!

Haki? Not sure it could ignore Thing. It'd be a no limits fallacy to assume it could without looking at internal attacks or something Thing has endured. Maybe ask Immortal what feats he has of that.