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zhris
05-09-2014, 09:38 PM
It seems like there are several Rumbles that have either happened so often or are so clearly one-sided that there's already an accepted outcome (the one example I see a lot is Cassandra Cain vs. Bruce Wayne; Cass Wins). Have these ever been collected? I think it'd be a good idea to have a general reference point. I'm not sure an outright ranking system would work, there's too much of a paper-rock-scissors mechanic involved, but a simple list of 'If x fought y under z conditions, y will win'.

big_adventure
05-09-2014, 11:00 PM
Thing is, it didn't really used to be necessary.

And the other thing is, it was all at least somewhat available via search before the reboot (if the poster bothered - but someone asking the example question you mention clearly wouldn't bother).

big_adventure
05-10-2014, 01:11 AM
OK, I thought this through, and decided to give you an approximation of the Beadle flowchart:

Throughout I'll say "guy" just because it is shorter than "character" - no sexism implicit here.

1. If one guy can't hurt the other, and the other guy can hurt the first guy, "other guy" wins, every time. Fighting skill, heart, grit, spunk, nastiness or willingness to do X don't help. This means that Captain America cannot beat Hulk. Don't even try it.

2. If both can hurt each other, and one is significantly faster than the other, "significantly faster" wins. Every time. Fighting skill, heart, grit, spunk, nastiness or willingness to do X don't help. This means that Cass Cain always slaughters Batman, and Daredevil always slaughters Slade Wilson (or Wade Wilson, for that matter). Don't even get me started on what Flash (Wally West) or Gladiator or Surfer can pull off. OK, get me started: any of them PUNK THE SH17 out of Superman and the rest of the League.

3. If both can hurt one another and speed is close, and one has a viable ranged attack and the other does not, viable ranged attack guy is likely to win (depending on some things, but it's a good rule of thumb).

4. If both can hurt one another, speed is close and either both have viable ranged attacks or neither do, skill or better esoteric effects (dimension/space dumping, time stops, mind screw, etc.) will likely be telling.

5. Teleportation and/or Flight are edges that can add to the speed equation, but be reasonable - Nightcrawler isn't beating Hulk, even if he can teleport, since he has no way at all of hurting the guy. And it certainly isn't giving an edge against Superman, who will have killed him long before his mind processes the "B" in "Bamf."

These are just some basic guidelines. Obviously, you have to know the speed levels and strength levels of the various characters, but that's the way it goes.

Postmania
05-10-2014, 02:39 AM
Thing is, it didn't really used to be necessary.

And the other thing is, it was all at least somewhat available via search before the reboot (if the poster bothered - but someone asking the example question you mention clearly wouldn't bother).

Another thing lost with the end of the Third age

Slade1
05-12-2014, 07:56 AM
Another reason we don't use baselines is because comice are an ever-changing medium. One character might be given feats(s) in the future for a certian ability that they never displayed before.

Blackid
05-12-2014, 09:47 AM
another reason this gets complicated is the intelligence quotient of said fighter... So many brainiacs (not the character) have defeated fast, strong, powered characters using ingenuity and creativity.

Hey @big.. got any examples for #3 and 4 in your list?

Slade1
05-12-2014, 09:52 AM
another reason this gets complicated is the intelligence quotient of said fighter... So many brainiacs (not the character) have defeated fast, strong, powered characters using ingenuity and creativity.

Hey @big.. got any examples for #3 and 4 in your list?

Intelligence, creativity and ingenuity would only work in scenerio or prep time settings. Reed Richards is one of the most smartest people in any universe but he'll get beat down by Superman 10/10 in a non-prep situation.

MorphyVSFischer
05-12-2014, 10:00 AM
another reason this gets complicated is the intelligence quotient of said fighter... So many brainiacs (not the character) have defeated fast, strong, powered characters using ingenuity and creativity.

Hey @big.. got any examples for #3 and 4 in your list?

Yeah so the thing with intelligence is that outside of a prep fight it usually isn't relevant. Fight takes place in a roman arena with nothing for some intelligent character to use. Even if there was a scenario, if the other guy has a physical stat advantage in every area, smart guy won't get to build his machine before he's dead. If there close in stats same story he won't really get the opportunity to leave the guy trying to kill him. I suppose its possible where there's a scenario where a guy like Reed could run to his lab while the rest of the FF play keep away, but in practice it's rare.
A good mundane example of 3 would be the Cap VS Batman fight. Similar speeds, capable of hurting each other, but Batman has all sort of ranged crap in his belt so he wins.
4 is a bit tougher. An example I can think of is Thor VS Dr. Doom. Not in exact comparison as Thor is faster, but Doom could trap thor in the crimson bands before he does any serious damage to him, thus winning thru esoteric effect.

FrenchGemini
05-12-2014, 10:12 AM
another reason this gets complicated is the intelligence quotient of said fighter... So many brainiacs (not the character) have defeated fast, strong, powered characters using ingenuity and creativity.

Hey @big.. got any examples for #3 and 4 in your list?

I'm not big, but for 4, speed-equalized Superman vs Thor (D-dump for the win) comes to mind.

bat1987
05-12-2014, 11:00 AM
OK, I thought this through, and decided to give you an approximation of the Beadle flowchart:

Throughout I'll say "guy" just because it is shorter than "character" - no sexism implicit here.
2. If both can hurt each other, and one is significantly faster than the other, "significantly faster" wins. Every time. Fighting skill, heart, grit, spunk, nastiness or willingness to do X don't help. This means that Cass Cain always slaughters Batman, and Daredevil always slaughters Slade Wilson (or Wade Wilson, for that matter).


For the most part guideline is OK, but this is the part I have the most problem with. Sure Cass can beat Bruce, but I'm taking into consideration her skill in addition to her speed. I think fighting skill and strength should be a factor here. For example I don't think Daredevil can beat Slade eventhough he's a bullet timer and Slade is not. Don't want to turn this into Slade VS DD, was just using it as an example.

MorphyVSFischer
05-12-2014, 11:08 AM
For the most part guideline is OK, but this is the part I have the most problem with. Sure Cass can beat Bruce, but I'm taking into consideration her skill in addition to her speed. I think fighting skill and strength should be a factor here. For example I don't think Daredevil can beat Slade eventhough he's a bullet timer and Slade is not. Don't want to turn this into Slade VS DD, was just using it as an example.

Except Daredevil is at least as skilled as Slade. Slade would arguably be maybe a little stronger, but Daredevil is more then capable of hurting the dude since he has a speed advantage, which is why he wins.

bat1987
05-12-2014, 11:54 AM
Except Daredevil is at least as skilled as Slade. Slade would arguably be maybe a little stronger, but Daredevil is more then capable of hurting the dude since he has a speed advantage, which is why he wins.

Well ya Slade is a meta, with both his strength and speed enhanced. Regardless I just don't think, regardless of the example used. Speed is def an important factor. But I don't think strength, endurance or skill should be ignored. It just renders some of the potentially interesting debates useless. This is all ofc IMO :)

Daenarys Stormborn
05-12-2014, 12:03 PM
Yeah so the thing with intelligence is that outside of a prep fight it usually isn't relevant. Fight takes place in a roman arena with nothing for some intelligent character to use. Even if there was a scenario, if the other guy has a physical stat advantage in every area, smart guy won't get to build his machine before he's dead. If there close in stats same story he won't really get the opportunity to leave the guy trying to kill him. I suppose its possible where there's a scenario where a guy like Reed could run to his lab while the rest of the FF play keep away, but in practice it's rare.
A good mundane example of 3 would be the Cap VS Batman fight. Similar speeds, capable of hurting each other, but Batman has all sort of ranged crap in his belt so he wins.
4 is a bit tougher. An example I can think of is Thor VS Dr. Doom. Not in exact comparison as Thor is faster, but Doom could trap thor in the crimson bands before he does any serious damage to him, thus winning thru esoteric effect.

I see Cap beating Pre Nu Batman 10/10 and Thor beating Doom 10/10. Ranged attacks aren't everything when you have a shield that has range of its own in addition to being, well, a shield.

Slade1
05-12-2014, 12:25 PM
I see Cap beating Pre Nu Batman 10/10 and Thor beating Doom 10/10. Ranged attacks aren't everything when you have a shield that has range of its own in addition to being, well, a shield.

The shield isn't stopping stuff like sonic grenades or knock-out gas.

Slade1
05-12-2014, 12:26 PM
Well ya Slade is a meta, with both his strength and speed enhanced. Regardless I just don't think, regardless of the example used. Speed is def an important factor. But I don't think strength, endurance or skill should be ignored. It just renders some of the potentially interesting debates useless. This is all ofc IMO :)

You can always create a thread between the two and equalize speed.

big_adventure
05-12-2014, 01:58 PM
A good mundane example of 3 would be the Cap VS Batman fight. Similar speeds, capable of hurting each other, but Batman has all sort of ranged crap in his belt so he wins.
4 is a bit tougher. An example I can think of is Thor VS Dr. Doom. Not in exact comparison as Thor is faster, but Doom could trap thor in the crimson bands before he does any serious damage to him, thus winning thru esoteric effect.

Without prep, Thor trivially slaughters Doom due to VASTLY faster reaction time. Thor can just suck out his energy, dump him into the sun or a black hole, offer him as a gift to Dormammu - whatever.



Hey @big.. got any examples for #3 and 4 in your list?


Sure:

3. If both can hurt one another and speed is close, and one has a viable ranged attack and the other does not, viable ranged attack guy is likely to win (depending on some things, but it's a good rule of thumb).

- As someone else mentioned, Batman versus Captain America kind of falls here - Batman can spam explosives, 'rangs and sonics and will take the majority. Cap might get a double-KO with a crazy shield bounce or something. Another one is something like BuckyCap versus Batroc or some other CBPH who doesn't carry ranged weapons - Batroc's not a bullet-timer, and the other guy carries a pistol as standard equipment. It needs to be a viable ranged attack - using an arrow against a guy with skills for trivially catching same is NOT a viable ranged attack.

4. If both can hurt one another, speed is close and either both have viable ranged attacks or neither do, skill or better esoteric effects (dimension/space dumping, time stops, mind screw, etc.) will likely be telling.

- Speed-equal Superman versus Thor shows up here - Thor can just drop the dude into the core of a red sun (kill) or into another dimension (win by ringout). Another one would be Dr. Doom versus Iron Man - hell, Tony's actually a bit quicker, has better armor, and has better physical attacks, but none of those can one-shot Victor - and Victor can send the Crimson Bands, which have a feat for shutting down Tony's armor nearly instantly. This would also be where, say, Psylocke versus Captain America would show - she can shut off his mind with telepathy before he can close with her.

MorphyVSFischer
05-12-2014, 02:01 PM
Well ya Slade is a meta, with both his strength and speed enhanced. Regardless I just don't think, regardless of the example used. Speed is def an important factor. But I don't think strength, endurance or skill should be ignored. It just renders some of the potentially interesting debates useless. This is all ofc IMO :)

We never ignore these things. Adventure clearly stated all things being equal speed always wins.

bat1987
05-12-2014, 02:27 PM
We never ignore these things. Adventure clearly stated all things being equal speed always wins.

Fair enough.