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Jcogginsa
05-12-2014, 09:14 AM
The god of thunder takes on the Super Sayian god. Who wins?

Bonus 1: Goku moves to asgard

Bonus 2: Thor moves to Z world earth

Bonus 3: Sit and talk

MorphyVSFischer
05-12-2014, 09:42 AM
Goku's to fast for Thor. Massive AoE's for the win.

Anarchist
05-12-2014, 09:46 AM
Yeah, speed is the problem, with equalized speed though Thor would win.

The Immortal Watch Dog
05-12-2014, 10:39 AM
Goku's to fast for Thor. Massive AoE's for the win.

Goku can't even hurt him..Thor can do whatever the hell he wants to anybody in DBZ and they can't do a damn thing about it.

MorphyVSFischer
05-12-2014, 10:45 AM
Goku can't even hurt him..Thor can do whatever the hell he wants to anybody in DBZ and they can't do a damn thing about it.

Goku has on panel planet busted at the very least. Thor isn't taking multiple shots from a dude massively faster who can hit him repeatedly.

Surtur
05-12-2014, 10:50 AM
It comes down to one thing: can Thor passively absorb energy with his hammer? He can absorb massive amounts with it, and thus could certainly absorb anything Goku could dish out..if given enough time to react.


Goku has on panel planet busted at the very least.

I definitely know he can planet bust, but I am curious as to when this happened on panel? I know he was messing up the Kai's planet, but he didn't destroy it. Other then that I can't think of any time Goku destroyed a planet, mostly because he's just not the type of guy to ever do that.

MorphyVSFischer
05-12-2014, 10:54 AM
It comes down to one thing: can Thor passively absorb energy with his hammer? He can absorb massive amounts with it, and thus could certainly absorb anything Goku could dish out..if given enough time to react.



I definitely know he can planet bust, but I am curious as to when this happened on panel? I know he was messing up the Kai's planet, but he didn't destroy it. Other then that I can't think of any time Goku destroyed a planet, mostly because he's just not the type of guy to ever do that.

Ah the Kai think was what I was thinking of but I'm sure I've heard he had planet busted from the more DBZ knowledgeable members here.

The Immortal Watch Dog
05-12-2014, 10:59 AM
Goku has on panel planet busted at the very least. Thor isn't taking multiple shots from a dude massively faster who can hit him repeatedly.

Goku has never on panel planet busted he's on the level of people who have but he does not, meanwhile Thor has, casually..also you know the speed gap is entirely nonexistent as there is not a single character in DBZ that touches lightspeed. Which certainly does (and people have made cases going back almost a decade for him being ftl)

As for Thors durability, the man has taken shots from everyone from Heralds and Gladiator to Galactus and gotten back up. While I'm not saying Big G hit him with a galaxy buster, the man has certainly taken enough.

Never mind that his hammer can absorb energy well in excess of what the entire DBZ multiverses cast can throw out combined.

edit- the scene you may be thinking of is when Frieza threw an energy sphere at him and Goku slapped it into space where it smashed into a planet that was near Namek and vaporized it

1, contradicts the manga and thus not valid

2, contradicts all of Freiza's other feats that suggest planet busting was very difficult for him

3, you don't see casual world vaporizing fire power until the kid buu Saga

a hammer toss has done what KB did

Surtur
05-12-2014, 11:00 AM
Ah the Kai think was what I was thinking of but I'm sure I've heard he had planet busted from the more DBZ knowledgeable members here.

Goku's on panel feats of destruction tend to be more about overpowering other people. He hasn't even really moon busted on panel, but Roshi has. If he has planet busted then it would of had to of been in one of the movies or something.


As for Thors durability, the man has taken shots from everyone from Heralds and Gladiator to Galactus and gotten back up. While I'm not saying Big G hit him with a galaxy buster, the man has certainly taken enough.

He is plenty durable, but the problem is that in those cases you mention..he is indeed taking "shots" from heralds and Gladiator. As in..a few of them. As opposed to, for example, dozens of them in the blink of an eye.

The Immortal Watch Dog
05-12-2014, 11:02 AM
Goku's on panel feats of destruction tend to be more about overpowering other people. He hasn't even really moon busted on panel, but Roshi has. If he has planet busted then it would of had to of been in one of the movies or something.

pretty sure Roshi's moonbusting was ruled SM vs FL ages ago when Phenom tried to claim it meant anyone above Roshi could do it.

Not that a mod ruling is needed to dismiss what is clearly massively contradictory to the rest of that era

MorphyVSFischer
05-12-2014, 11:05 AM
Goku has never on panel planet busted he's on the level of people who have but he does not, meanwhile Thor has, casually

I know absolutely for a fact Thor is not a planet buster and has never been considered one of this board.



..also you know the speed gap is entirely nonexistent as there is not a single character in DBZ that touches lightspeed. Which certainly does (and people have made cases going back almost a decade for him being ftl)

Thor is mod ruled as being between high end BT and Super sonic. Where did I say Goku was lightspeed? He's pretty demonstrably faster then Thor from everything I've ever seen.


As for Thors durability, the man has taken shots from everyone from Heralds and Gladiator to Galactus and gotten back up. While I'm not saying Big G hit him with a galaxy buster, the man has certainly taken enough.

So in another words, gigantic cases of PIS.

Anarchist
05-12-2014, 11:09 AM
I know absolutely for a fact Thor is not a planet buster and has never been considered one of this board.
Sure about that?
I found some scans via google, but I won't post them because I don't know the context, but Beta Ray Bill, who is Thor's equal, has pretty casually smashed planets in his own series and considering Thor's other strength feats (like lifting the planet-sized Midgard-Serpent) I really don't think that planet busting is beyond him.

MorphyVSFischer
05-12-2014, 11:14 AM
Sure about that?
I found some scans via google, but I won't post them because I don't know the context, but Beta Ray Bill, who is Thor's equal, has pretty casually smashed planets in his own series and considering Thor's other strength feats (like lifting the planet-sized Midgard-Serpent) I really don't think that planet busting is beyond him.

Other characters=/=Thor. These kinds of comparisons don't fly here. Having a similar powerset doesn't mean they get to share feats, especially as Thor is decades old, beta ray bill isn't.
Also lifting the Midgard-serpent proves he's class 100, we need to actually see him busting planets on panel, then compare it to his other feats. Post-crisis Superman is generally regarded to be as strong or stronger then Thor, yet was afforded "just" moon busting status based on a on panel feat and even that had an asterisk on it.

Hazard
05-12-2014, 11:17 AM
Travel speed is not reaction speed.

Well, it is if it is running and stuff but not flight. That's the reason why Thor is stuck between Spider-Man and Classic Quicksilver.


Anyway, yeah, speed, blasts and stuff.

The Immortal Watch Dog
05-12-2014, 11:18 AM
I know absolutely for a fact Thor is not a planet buster


So all those times Thors tossed his hammer through moons and planet is now magically non canon? Marvel never had a COIE event..

I mean, even ignoring those, he has repeatedly shown that his strength dramatically exceeds Goku's. Thors between overpowering something that was crushing the earth and hefting it up to a brawl where it's noted that they were shifting the planets orbit..

Never mind the more esoteric abilities his hammer has that means he can more or less absorb all of Goku's chi..or soak his attacks and blunt them..or the million other things he can do.



and has never been considered one of this board.]

Really because he certainly was in my day, courtesy of Lokdale and Pike and their expert knowledge on the guy. I mean Christ, Pend had it out with Kurt Busiek and the topic was brought up

so maybe things changed, but obviously not for the better if we're ignoring actual facts.





Thor is mod ruled as being between high end BT and Super sonic.

show me


Where did I say Goku was lightspeed?

I'm preempting it



He's pretty demonstrably faster then Thor from everything I've ever seen.


Based on what?





So in another words, gigantic cases of PIS.

You don't get to dismiss consistent durability feats based on PIS. Never mind Thor's own insane resistance to energy

you dismiss the more insane ones based on that, because you know, they are.

Thor's taken blows from people who turned right around and punched a hole in reality because..muscles! He's been souped by energy fire and kept on going. Dudes more than tough enough to stand there take a few of Goku's best, whip out his hammer and start screwing with Goku's chi


Sure about that?
I found some scans via google, but I won't post them because I don't know the context, but Beta Ray Bill, who is Thor's equal, has pretty casually smashed planets in his own series and considering Thor's other strength feats (like lifting the planet-sized Midgard-Serpent) I really don't think that planet busting is beyond him.

Beta I wouldn't call them equals, Beta beats heralds around like rag dolls and keeps up with Surfer (granted the dude was dying but still) and all the other absolutely insane crap Beta's pulled off that kinda make him head over heels above most flying bricks


problem is that in those cases you mention..he is indeed taking "shots" from heralds and Gladiator. As in..a few of them. As opposed to, for example, dozens of them in the blink of an eye.

Considering Goku can't in any capacity throw out comparable fire power..he only needs to be able to survive a few blows from said dudes.

Goku isn't Gladiator, he isn't putting out planet busting force with his biceps by putting someone in a head lock, or hilariously mass scattering worlds with a punch or two..or any of the other insane stuff the above have done.

And Goku's so stupid that bloodlust wont mitigate CIS enough for him, Goku is gonna wanna "fight" and that's going to kill him

Hazard
05-12-2014, 11:24 AM
Thor's speed mod ruling:

http://community.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?1441-Mod-Rulings&p=31734&viewfull=1#post31734

The Immortal Watch Dog
05-12-2014, 11:28 AM
Thor's speed mod ruling:

http://community.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?1441-Mod-Rulings&p=31734&viewfull=1#post31734

A mod ruling brought about by both sides not arguing with the full amount of knowledge. Shame..

in any case it hardly matters given Goku can't put him down before he gets his Chi screwed followed by a world busting hammer toss

Hazard
05-12-2014, 11:34 AM
There is no way Thor is tanking everything until he gets a chance to do something.

Captain Morgan
05-12-2014, 11:36 AM
IWD, you are kinda behind the times man. Thor's was mod ruled as like a mach 1 speedster at best. I also don't know of any times where the guy has actually destroyed a planet. I'm not saying it would be ridiculous to peg him at that level, but he doesn't have it. He's also not at a level of durability where he is going to be withstanding a class 100 speed blitz. This was also ruled on. Gone are the days of the Thor vs. Superman controversy.

Goku, meanwhile, has a recent feat that involves punching through King Kai's ultra dense planetoid. Even if that doesn't net him "planet busting punches," it establishes him as a solid class 100. And while there's always some controversy around DBZ speed levels, I reckon calling them anything less than hundreds of mach by the end of the series is pretty silly. And I think Goku being able to blow up planets with his energy blasts is pretty uncontested too. The argument tends to how many +'s to add to planet busting+++ kind of stuff.

Hazard
05-12-2014, 11:38 AM
IWD, you are kinda behind the times man. Thor's was mod ruled as like a mach 1 speedster at best. I also don't know of any times where the guy has actually destroyed a planet. I'm not saying it would be ridiculous to peg him at that level, but he doesn't have it. He's also not at a level of durability where he is going to be withstanding a class 100 speed blitz. This was also ruled on. Gone are the days of the Thor vs. Superman controversy.

Goku, meanwhile, has a recent feat that involves punching through King Kai's ultra dense planetoid. Even if that doesn't net him "planet busting punches," it establishes him as a solid class 100. And while there's always some controversy around DBZ speed levels, I reckon calling them anything less than hundreds of mach by the end of the series is pretty silly. And I think Goku being able to blow up planets with his energy blasts is pretty uncontested too. The argument tends to how many +'s to add to planet busting+++ kind of stuff.

He also fought a guy who broke multiple planets by ramming into them when he freaked out because his food was too hot. Said guy was using 70% of his power during the fight.

Guy1
05-12-2014, 11:39 AM
Out of curiosity, are we including SSJG Goku in this?

Captain Morgan
05-12-2014, 11:41 AM
Out of curiosity, are we including SSJG Goku in this?

Well they mention the Saiyan God in the post... But it's an external power up, so it would be a grey area.

Hazard
05-12-2014, 11:41 AM
Out of curiosity, are we including SSJG Goku in this?

The OP does say Super Saiyan God.

The Immortal Watch Dog
05-12-2014, 11:43 AM
He also fought a guy who broke multiple planets by ramming into them when he freaked out because his food was too hot. Said guy was using 70% of his power during the fight.


You do realize battle of the gods is non canon right?

and even then it was a very special power up no one knows if Goku can do again?

edit- Toriyama's statement and the controversey surrounding the fanlation of it aside

Buffy season 8 was ruled non canon for not being part of the same media, and for wildly contradicting the show.

The Star Wars EU was declared by rumbles mods it's own universe and not canon to the movies long before Disney did it.

I can cite the above precedent's to impeach a huge amount of DBZ animated movies for the same reasons

edit- I'm not behind the times CM, I've been debating dbz fanatics virtually nonstop for the last five years . My stance is just old fashion "never trust the fandom, ever. And always scrutinize everything and go with the most "sane" conclusion because otherwise everything goes to hell"

Hazard
05-12-2014, 11:49 AM
Battle of Gods is being used for this thread; so yeah.

It's totally canon though.

Edit: That said, I'm getting a worrying "You vs DBZ" feel in your last post.

Chill, dude.

carrrnuttt
05-12-2014, 11:51 AM
You do realize battle of the gods is non canon right?

and even then it was a very special power up no one knows if Goku can do again?

edit- Toriyama's statement and the controversey surrounding the fanlation of it aside

Really?

A factual statement from the creator and writer of the show is not enough to make it canon for you?

I understand that you seem to be hell-bent on downplaying DBZ on these boards based on your recent posts, but you need to qualify yourself better than stating an opinion that is purely yours.

Also, feel free to post scans of Thor keeping up with someone that's FIGHTING (not just travelling) so fast that it looks like he's teleporting miles away at a time.

The Immortal Watch Dog
05-12-2014, 11:52 AM
It's totally canon though.
.

Canon to the anime

not the manga


Really?

A factual statement from the creator and writer of the show is not enough to make it canon for you?
.

It wasn't enough, for Star Wars or Buffy according to the mods. Not me, and not the rest of us who argued it was non canon, not those who supported the EU or S8 comics..but the guys who arbitrate these things.

And for the exact same reasons, BOTG shouldn't be valid for use as evidence.

edit- seeing as I was the guy who argued for the better part of a year that Freiza was lightspeed here back in the day, implying that I'm biased against dbz is really funny.

chances are, if you're making a claim that's in defense of dbz i made it first and I made it louder

Guy1
05-12-2014, 11:53 AM
?

I understand that you seem to be hell-bent on downplaying DBZ on these boards based on your recent posts, but you need to qualify yourself better than stating an opinion that is purely yours..

Dial it back carrrnuttt

Hazard
05-12-2014, 11:58 AM
Canon to the anime

not the manga

Nah, it's canon.

It was even advertised as taking place between the last two manga chapter in regards to where it was situated in the timeline.

The Immortal Watch Dog
05-12-2014, 11:58 AM
Dial it back carrrnuttt

just out of solidarity to a fellow debater. His intensity doesn't bother me so much, the less than honest implication that not only I'm I biased but arguing based on opinion on the other hand..

but then again this is what happens when you take on that franchise, it kinda provokes the worse in people for some reason. It's like an anti civility blackhole :p


Nah, it's canon.

It was even advertised as taking place between the last two manga chapter in regards to where it was situated in the timeline.

Once again, it doesn't meet Rumbles established criteria for canoncity

the mere fact that two canon universes in their entirety got ruled non canon due to the same issues is proof enough.

And that's really all that's needed.

carrrnuttt
05-12-2014, 12:00 PM
Dial it back carrrnuttt

I just hate it when facts become malleable to people because of a bias of opinion.

He DID recently downplay DBZ's speed (regardless of his past proclivities), so I asked him to qualify his opinion with FEATS from Thor.

Hazard
05-12-2014, 12:02 PM
Once again, it doesn't meet Rumbles established criteria for canoncity

the mere fact that two canon universes in their entirety got ruled non canon due to the same issues is proof enough.

And that's really all that's needed.

It has certainly been used and considered as canon in debates regarding DBZ before the board wipe though. Check the archives if you want... for however long they last.

The Immortal Watch Dog
05-12-2014, 12:05 PM
I just hate it when facts become malleable to people because of a bias of opinion.

He DID recently downplay DBZ's speed (regardless of his past proclivities), so I asked him to qualify his opinion with FEATS from Thor.

That's cute...that's also totally a false accusation but whatever keep mud slinging kiddo


It has certainly been used and considered as canon in debates regarding DBZ before the board wipe though. Check the archives if you want... for however long they last.

That's because nobody has challenged it, people have become complacent and the fires gone out of this place. There is a passive acceptance of all things, better and worse for fear of I dunno..appearing uncivil?

I'm not here to appease anyone i'm not here to nod blindly..I'm here to debate. I really don't care how that goes or who wins so long as the arguments worth it and the people are awesome and I can provoke some thought and get that blood flowing.

Jcogginsa
05-12-2014, 12:18 PM
The OP does say Super Saiyan God.
The Goku in this is post Battle of the Gods. In BOTG, SSJG only lasted a little bit but it also massively increased the potency of Goku's regular SSJ form, and in his battle with Bills he was briefly able to use it again when his friends and family were endangered.

just out of solidarity to a fellow debater. His intensity doesn't bother me so much, the less than honest implication that not only I'm I biased but arguing based on opinion on the other hand..

but then again this is what happens when you take on that franchise, it kinda provokes the worse in people for some reason. It's like an anti civility blackhole :p



Once again, it doesn't meet Rumbles established criteria for canoncity

the mere fact that two canon universes in their entirety got ruled non canon due to the same issues is proof enough.

And that's really all that's needed.

The Op is able to designate EU feats as applicable if they desire, according to the Star Wars ruling. Same applies to everything else. If something is dubiously canon, OP's are able to say "It counts for this rumble"

Which I am.

Slade1
05-12-2014, 12:22 PM
That's because nobody has challenged it, people have become complacent and the fires gone out of this place. There is a passive acceptance of all things, better and worse for fear of I dunno..appearing uncivil?


Then feel free to challenge it. But contact the mods, this thread isn't for challenging mod rules.

Hazard
05-12-2014, 12:23 PM
That's because nobody has challenged it, people have become complacent and the fires gone out of this place. There is a passive acceptance of all things, better and worse for fear of I dunno..appearing uncivil?

I'm not here to appease anyone i'm not here to nod blindly..I'm here to debate. I really don't care how that goes or who wins so long as the arguments worth it and the people are awesome and I can provoke some thought and get that blood flowing.

Being civil and debating have never been mutually exclusive things. No one is asking you to nod blindly, but do respect the way the places goes. Previous threads do set a trend. Travel speed issues and the like are also things you have to take note of.

Your posts so far have the same general trend. Things have changed. I'm here to make things right. And what not. Don't mean this as an insult, but rather a genuine observation.

carrrnuttt
05-12-2014, 12:25 PM
That's cute...that's also totally a false accusation but whatever keep mud slinging kiddo

LOL

Answer this simple question: Can Thor, based on FEATS, keep up with a Goku that's trying?


That's because nobody has challenged it, people have become complacent and the fires gone out of this place. There is a passive acceptance of all things, better and worse for fear of I dunno..appearing uncivil?

Huh? "Passive acceptance" to BoG being included in DBZ's official history?

Yeah, Toriyama never said it himself, but Toei did, and Toriyama has had PLENTY of time to contradict that notion.

I don't have an opinion on WHETHER BoG should be canon, like you do. What I do know is the creators behind it and DBZ has put BoG into the official timeline of the DBZ, inconsistencies and all. That's it.

It's like a fanboy nitpicking inconsistencies between AoS and the different MCU presentations (movies, one-shots, Netflix). It can happen, but it doesn't mean that one part isn't canon considering the source declared it so.

The Immortal Watch Dog
05-12-2014, 12:26 PM
Then feel free to challenge it. But contact the mods, this thread isn't for challenging mod rules.

reread what I typed, that wasn't me saying "i'm totally going to dispute a series of mod rulings that reinforce my argument for no apparent reason" and more "DBZ is hyped up again and this is just me doing what I've always done on Rumbles"



Answer this simple question: Can Thor, based on FEATS, keep up with a Goku that's trying?

Let's try a different question "can you come up with an argument beyond a rather obvious attempt to bait a user into questioning dogma handed down by mods, so as to avoid actually arguing them by getting them banned"

aka: "The answer is irrelevant, because pending an appeal there is a mandate that takes precedence over everything"

Or here, another one a question that's actually valid "what proves Goku can hurt Thor enough to stop him from haxing him into uselessness and then souping the bastard" and the answer to that "is nothing but wishful thinking from the pro dbz side"




Huh? "Passive acceptance" to BoG being included in DBZ's official history?

Yeah, Toriyama never said it himself, but Toei did, and Toriyama has had PLENTY of time to contradict that notion.

I don't have an opinion on WHETHER BoG should be canon, like you do. What I do know is the creators behind it and DBZ has put BoG into the official timeline of the DBZ, inconsistencies and all. That's it.

It's like a fanboy nitpicking inconsistencies between AoS and the different MCU presentations (movies, one-shots, Netflix). It can happen, but it doesn't mean that one part isn't canon considering the source declared it so.

again you're confusing "officially canon" with "what matters on this site as far as what's allowed as evidence". Never mind that repeating "opinion" over and over like some kind of mantra, doesn't in any way shape or form change the fact that it's hilariously false and done to dodge

now hop off the red herrings, false accusations and the knee jerk reaction to having the series questioned before someone says the wrong thing and Guy1 nukes one or both of us.

Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh
05-12-2014, 12:35 PM
To be 100% fair, the old mod-rulings are non-existent now; and I find it funny that some people are using them in their arguments, despite throwing them out to make arguments against previously mod-ruled stats in other threads.

--

That said; Thor's ability to absorb energy with Mjolnir is, quite frankly, ridiculous. As if to punctuate this, a recent feat in Thor: God of Thunder has him mainlining a blast with two Mjolnir's (one from his future self, and his normal one) from a weapon that was designed to, and currently in the process of wiping out all of the Gods, from every pantheon, across space and time, even Odin. The end result of this killed him, since he became the focus point of the explosion, but the fact that he was capable of absorbing it with Mjolnir(s) is definitely notable.

NOW. That, that said. Goku is definitely faster than him currently. There's been some feats in recent years, that have Thor moving at/around FTL as far as reaction speed is concerned, certainly, but it's not near enough (or maybe it is, who knows) to overturn the general opinion that based on 60 or so years of continuity, that the guy is at/around Mach 1.

Which means that Goku can just spam Thor to unconsciousness/death with relative impunity.


reread what I typed, that wasn't me saying "i'm totally going to dispute a series of mod rulings that reinforce my argument for no apparent reason" and more "DBZ is hyped up again and this is just me doing what I've always done on Rumbles"

Well, seeing as how they're no longer Mod-Rulings. I'm not sure why they're being carted out. Basically, all they're doing is going "this is what was decided before".

The Immortal Watch Dog
05-12-2014, 12:38 PM
To be 100% fair, the old mod-rulings are non-existent now; and I find it funny that some people are using them in their arguments, despite throwing them out to make arguments against previously mod-ruled stats in other threads.

--

Take this up with the staff who has been not only archiving them but stickying them,

As to Thors ftlness..people have been making a strong case for years based off feats decades, years and months old. His history is full of speed feats, the issue is the guys got more low end speed feats per high end ones

He's like a less crappy version of sbp in that regard

Hazard
05-12-2014, 12:39 PM
The Thor ruling is one of those which have crossed over.

And really, if it was a matter of tanking things, Thor wouldn't automatically lose against Superman and the like every time he is on Rumbles.

Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh
05-12-2014, 12:41 PM
The Thor ruling is one of those which have crossed over.

Did it?

Must have missed it, then.


And really, if it was a matter of tanking things, Thor wouldn't automatically lose against Superman and the like every time he is on Rumbles.

Oh, he can tank a hell of a lot, but thousands/tens of thousand/millions of Superman level punches or Goku level energy blasts is definitely going to drop him. He's not Thanos or anything.

Hazard
05-12-2014, 12:43 PM
Did it?

Must have missed it, then.

It's in the Rulings Thread.


Oh, he can tank a hell of a lot, but thousands/tens of thousand/millions of Superman level punches or Goku level energy blasts is definitely going to drop him. He's not Thanos or anything.

Pretty much.

carrrnuttt
05-12-2014, 12:47 PM
Let's try a different question "can you come up with an argument beyond a rather obvious attempt to bait a user into questioning dogma handed down by mods, so as to avoid actually arguing them by getting them banned"

aka: "The answer is irrelevant, because pending an appeal there is a mandate that takes precedence over everything"

Or here, another one a question that's actually valid "what proves Goku can hurt Thor enough to stop him from haxing him into uselessness and then souping the bastard" and the answer to that "is nothing but wishful thinking from the pro dbz side"

You're not here to settle or debate anything.

You're here to prove you're right, no matter what. I go by the simple mantra of "facts based on feats" and go with it, regardless of my personal opinion.

So again, based on "facts from feats," is Thor faster than Goku? Yes or no? Can't be any simpler than a binary response, no?

I'll go ahead and get ahead of this here, and assume that you're going to answer "yes" to that question, so I will follow that up with: Scans please.

Simple, and doesn't require your opinion or mine, right?

Prove me wrong, in that you aren't simply in here to spout (self-validated) opinion, not facts.

Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh
05-12-2014, 12:48 PM
It's in the Rulings Thread.

Yep.

Definitely missed that.

Daenarys Stormborn
05-12-2014, 12:49 PM
You do realize battle of the gods is non canon right?

and even then it was a very special power up no one knows if Goku can do again?

edit- Toriyama's statement and the controversey surrounding the fanlation of it aside

Buffy season 8 was ruled non canon for not being part of the same media, and for wildly contradicting the show.

The Star Wars EU was declared by rumbles mods it's own universe and not canon to the movies long before Disney did it.

I can cite the above precedent's to impeach a huge amount of DBZ animated movies for the same reasons

edit- I'm not behind the times CM, I've been debating dbz fanatics virtually nonstop for the last five years . My stance is just old fashion "never trust the fandom, ever. And always scrutinize everything and go with the most "sane" conclusion because otherwise everything goes to hell"

The bold isn't relevant now. It's not in the sticky thread. Season 8 was also never inconsistent with the show. Half-way through Buffy got a 1 time season power up, but it's gone now. Season 9 and now season 10 of Buffy are all canon...officially stated by Josh Whedon with the former written by him, the same as he continuing season of Angel. As I am guessing you haven't read either seasons (or maybe you have, if so what feat do u consider inconsistent), I very much doubt you can speak about what is consistent or not to Buffy.

Ceebiro
05-12-2014, 12:54 PM
Quick comment.

Any energy blast that would actually do damage to Thor by Goku has a pretty good warm-up time. Unless Goku can get Thor on his knees, a Kamehameha or Spirit Bomb isn't going to win the day.

Captain Morgan
05-12-2014, 12:58 PM
Take this up with the staff who has been not only archiving them but stickying them,

As to Thors ftlness..people have been making a strong case for years based off feats decades, years and months old. His history is full of speed feats, the issue is the guys got more low end speed feats per high end ones

He's like a less crappy version of sbp in that regard

No, they made a shitty arguments for his FTLness that turned into 4759 page long flame wars. We had a chance to air the evidence on Thor's speed, comprehensively, and it came up lacking. Most anything that involved light or FTL involved his hammer moving at those speeds or just straight travel.

If you want to actually bring up speed feats for the guy... Well, technically you aren't supposed to do that at this point, but rather PM a mod, unless they are feats after 2010. But you can dig up specific feats and ask them.

Holacik
05-12-2014, 01:12 PM
Quick comment.

Any energy blast that would actually do damage to Thor by Goku has a pretty good warm-up time. Unless Goku can get Thor on his knees, a Kamehameha or Spirit Bomb isn't going to win the day.

I've seen Goku rattle off a quick Kamahamaha (Pretty sure against Cell) and really he doesn't need the Spirit bomb. The problem that Thor is going to have is that Goku can spam hundreds of thousands of energy attacks that Thor can't block, or absorb because the thought had yet to cross his mind.

Hazard
05-12-2014, 01:36 PM
I've seen Goku rattle off a quick Kamahamaha (Pretty sure against Cell) and really he doesn't need the Spirit bomb. The problem that Thor is going to have is that Goku can spam hundreds of thousands of energy attacks that Thor can't block, or absorb because the thought had yet to cross his mind.

Against Cell, he took his sweet time charging one. Mainly for Cell to go, "You're bluffing. There's no way you would blow up the planet. Stop it... seriously stop! Are you crazy!"

That said, he does plenty of instant Kamehameha against Buu and Kid Buu. And earlier against Nappa and others.

big_adventure
05-12-2014, 01:37 PM
I almost can't believe I'm going to dip a toe into this thread (which has both Thor and DBZ speed at issue in one package - the Rumblepocalypse)...

...but what the hell, the kids are sleeping, the wife is out, I've got a glass of something or other:

I was too old to watch DB/DBZ as a kid, and never caught on later on. I have, however (and totally thanks to Rumbles), recently watched about a hundred episodes of the show, DBZ from Androids through the end of the series, skipping a few here and there because, let's face it, they spend a lot of time standing around staring at each other and sweating.

I'm also a fan of Marvel Thor, and have, at one time or another read almost every single one of his appearances.

Based on that, well...

Goku is generally much faster. But Goku's regular strikes, even at SSJ3, just aren't hurting Thor, a dude who says "zounds" and hits back when taking a shot from a mid- to high-tier class 100.

Goku also has this little problem of showing up as regular Goku, and needing to concentrate and scream to amp up to various SSJ levels. This seems dealt with by the OP, starting him in a higher mode.

Goku's best attacks, the ones that can wreck a class 100, (for example: the planet-busting Kamehameha wave or the spirit bomb) take between several seconds to 5 minutes to charge and fire. Those are no use to a guy who can quite trivially deal with more powerful energy attacks with a few milliseconds of readiness.

Now, all of that said, Goku can absolutely spam some of his lower-end energy strikes at his regular attack speeds. He does this less than Vegeta, but can certainly do it. He can also make interesting uses of such attacks, launching an attack, then teleporting to where the person is expected to dodge to.

Goku also has an INSANE number of low showings for speed - watching while someone charges and attack instead of using is f$€*ing speed and teleportation to interrupt the stuff, or seeing a punch come in relatively slowly and not getting out of the way. All of the Z fighters do this, but this is pretty classic PIS. I mean, without MASSIVE PIS, there is not one single storyline in DBZ that becomes a thing - the androids don't come up without it, Cell certainly never becomes a threat without MASSIVE PIS from both Vegeta and (especially) Krillin. Gohan contributes more in that arc as well. Same thing with Buu. I mean, just blow up the ship, you idiots!

All of that said, He should take Thor in most situations I can think of. If Marvel ever starts writing speed more consistently, my opinion could change here, but Goku is at least in the hundreds of mach range when not being plot-crippled, and that's just faster than Thor usually is.

Thor DOES have some new feats that could be used to argue much faster reaction speeds (his travel speed is not in question - it's Surfer-level) than we classically give the guy:

1. Getting prayed to by Nick Fury, Jr. on behalf of his "girlfriend" - he flies in from across the universe, and precisely takes out some giant underwater mecha homing in on her. This whole series, prayer/travel/precise strikes takes place in a few panels, and would be the kind of thing we'd cite as Wally-sort of speed. Just as easily arguable as SMvFL, thanks to his consistent characterization.

2. The stuff with Gor - hitting the dude hard enough to knock him light years away, then following to make an attack precisely on the human-sized dude after the flight, all in 2 panels. But again, this is just as easily arguable as SMvFL.

Those two things, though, really seem hard to equate with his other stuff over the years, and he's had so many years there... Even the high-reflex stuff he's done before, even some of the arguably FTL things, have rarely been on that level.

Anyway, I just thought I'd dump a bit of gasoline on the fire. :-)

carrrnuttt
05-12-2014, 01:38 PM
I've seen Goku rattle off a quick Kamahamaha (Pretty sure against Cell) and really he doesn't need the Spirit bomb. The problem that Thor is going to have is that Goku can spam hundreds of thousands of energy attacks that Thor can't block, or absorb because the thought had yet to cross his mind.

Since BoG is in here, regardless of people's *opinion* of its canonicity, BoG Goku punched through a planet that has ten times the mass of Earth while training in SSJ3.

Just those multiples of those types of punches alone can eventually wear down the Thunder God.

Hazard
05-12-2014, 01:59 PM
Charge time in Dragon Ball is mostly an anime thing.

Goku has instantly changed modes and has instantly thrown Kamehameha.


Since BoG is in here, regardless of people's *opinion* of its canonicity, BoG Goku punched through a planet that has ten times the mass of Earth while training in SSJ3.

Just those multiples of those types of punches alone can eventually wear down the Thunder God.

It also has considerably less mass.

It bears mentioning.

Fist fight with Bills is honestly better anyway. Post Battle of Gods Goku is already at higher than SSJ3 levels even in baseline.

MorphyVSFischer
05-12-2014, 02:13 PM
So all those times Thors tossed his hammer through moons and planet is now magically non canon? Marvel never had a COIE event..

I mean, even ignoring those, he has repeatedly shown that his strength dramatically exceeds Goku's. Thors between overpowering something that was crushing the earth and hefting it up to a brawl where it's noted that they were shifting the planets orbit..


The last part sounds like a vast case of Spiderman V Firelord.
But hey, scans of Thor hitting a planet and it being destroyed? Moons=/=planets as far as that goes, and going through the planet isn't the same thing as destroying?

Bluekey
05-12-2014, 02:22 PM
It also has considerably less mass.

To have the gravity that it had and be the size that it was. It would have to be over twice as dense as a white dwarf star.

Holacik
05-12-2014, 02:42 PM
To have the gravity that it had and be the size that it was. It would have to be over twice as dense as a neutron star.

Not that it matters, but where do you get this from?

Bluekey
05-12-2014, 03:01 PM
Not that it matters, but where do you get this from?

It doesn't matter just a fun fact. I actually meant white dwarf star and NOT neutron star btw.

It came from math nerds like myself.

Holacik
05-12-2014, 03:03 PM
It doesn't matter just a fun fact. I actually meant white dwarf star and NOT neutron star btw.

It came from math nerds like myself.

That's a significant difference.

Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh
05-12-2014, 03:07 PM
Thor DOES have some new feats that could be used to argue much faster reaction speeds (his travel speed is not in question - it's Surfer-level) than we classically give the guy:

1. Getting prayed to by Nick Fury, Jr. on behalf of his "girlfriend" - he flies in from across the universe, and precisely takes out some giant underwater mecha homing in on her. This whole series, prayer/travel/precise strikes takes place in a few panels, and would be the kind of thing we'd cite as Wally-sort of speed. Just as easily arguable as SMvFL, thanks to his consistent characterization.

2. The stuff with Gor - hitting the dude hard enough to knock him light years away, then following to make an attack precisely on the human-sized dude after the flight, all in 2 panels. But again, this is just as easily arguable as SMvFL.

Those two things, though, really seem hard to equate with his other stuff over the years, and he's had so many years there... Even the high-reflex stuff he's done before, even some of the arguably FTL things, have rarely been on that level.

Anyway, I just thought I'd dump a bit of gasoline on the fire. :-)

You forgot a couple of two that I can remember off the top of my head:

1. Death Sentry blitzes him at the stated speed of "multiple times FTL, fast enough to bend space/time or some such). While carrying him, Sentry tells him to stop struggling, mid flight, before slamming him into the surface of a far off planet.

2. Thor's throw down with the Surfer duding issues 4-6 of Fraction's run where he's swatting away the guys energy attacks and the like.

Bluekey
05-12-2014, 03:10 PM
That's a significant difference.

lol yeah it's a massive difference. I always mix up the names for whatever reason.

Holacik
05-12-2014, 03:13 PM
You forgot a couple of two that I can remember off the top of my head:

1. Death Sentry blitzes him at the stated speed of "multiple times FTL, fast enough to bend space/time or some such). While carrying him, Sentry tells him to stop struggling, mid flight, before slamming him into the surface of a far off planet. Getting blitzed is a speedfeat?


2. Thor's throw down with the Surfer duding issues 4-6 of Fraction's run where he's swatting away the guys energy attacks and the like. At superspeed?

big_adventure
05-12-2014, 03:40 PM
Getting blitzed is a speedfeat?
At superspeed?

Eh, reacting to getting blitzed is a speedfeat. Thor was reacting to the blitz - he was slower, but not statue-slower.

As for deflecting the blasts - it is the Surfer, who was fighting to win, and who was exercising a fair bit of power in the match. He also clearly didn't use all the speed he's capable of - but saying that the Surfer's blasts are LESS than light speed, even on an off day, is at least arguable. And, while taken alone, it's not a reflex-establishing feat in light of other information, it could absolutely be used as confirmation of other feats, were one so inclined to force the issue.

master of read
05-12-2014, 04:02 PM
wow. when i went to sleep, there was only one post. i wake up and..................

but yeah, i'm going with the odds and giving goku the win, via superior speed and ki blast spam.

Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh
05-12-2014, 04:09 PM
Getting blitzed is a speedfeat?

When you're reacting fast enough to the blitz for the guy blitzing you to go "hey, cut that out I'm blitzing you at 'I'm bending space' speed." It's a feat.


At superspeed?

Against a Surfer actively trying to win, yes. See below.


Eh, reacting to getting blitzed is a speedfeat. Thor was reacting to the blitz - he was slower, but not statue-slower.

Pretty much.


As for deflecting the blasts - it is the Surfer, who was fighting to win, and who was exercising a fair bit of power in the match. He also clearly didn't use all the speed he's capable of - but saying that the Surfer's blasts are LESS than light speed, even on an off day, is at least arguable. And, while taken alone, it's not a reflex-establishing feat in light of other information, it could absolutely be used as confirmation of other feats, were one so inclined to force the issue.

I was more talking about the page(s) where Surfer and Thor were speeding towards each other (at what I'd say was "damn fast" to "really damn fast") with the Surfer trying his best to prevent Thor from getting to Galactus, only for Thor to change direction at the last second and zip past him, at which point Surfer went "awww damn", and Thor busted through Galactus' helmet.

Then after Odin and Galactus did the SCREW EVERYTHING, HEADBUTT!!!! Surfer and Thor went speeding to Earth's surface, and Thor was both keeping up, while watching Sif smile at Surfer while riding along with his shiny metal-like ass.

Captain Morgan
05-12-2014, 04:28 PM
Guys, the Sentry thing isn't a speed feat for Thor. It's barely a speed for Sentry, at least in the reflexes sense. First off, he wasn't getting "blitzed," in the sense that someone was piling on multiple attacks faster than he could react. He got grabbed and rushed off at FTL speeds. Struggling while being carried at FTL speeds is not a feat. This is actually EXACTLY the argument that led to the mods ruling on travel speed not being applicable, except there it was Sentry carrying Void to the sun. I could elaborate on this more, but I really don't feel I should have to...

EDIT: It's not a bad durability feat for Thor though.

The Drunkard Kid
05-12-2014, 05:42 PM
Theoretically, Goku could teleport behind Thor and use a Kienzan, which in the manga has never been stopped by anything for whatever that's worth.

For this fight specifically, Thor is fighting against a guy that is LOLfully faster than him and has physical strength sufficient to go toe to toe with a 70% Bills, the dude that accidentally and effortlessly blew up multiple planets in a row by flying through them with his face while freaking out over eating wasabi and didn't even slow down. And is thousands upon thousands of times stronger energy-blast wise than Frieza, a dude that blew up a fully sized 10G planet with zero charge time or effort in a form that had access to less than 1% of Frieza's full power. Kid Buu himself just chucked a planet buster with no real strain or charge time only for Vegeta to block it, at which point Buu just sent an even bigger one that Vegeta couldn't block in time, and Kid Buu is only about on par with SSJ3 Goku from the Buu saga.

The feats from the middle/later parts of the series aren't "Vegeta or Goku are spending a long time charging up to blow up the planet." It's "Vegeta or Goku has spent a long time charging this attack (from the perspective of people who have insane levels of super speed), and there's no way he can control it enough to keep it from blowing up the planet by accident." Heck, Goku was worried about that from way back with the Genki Dama he used against Frieza.

Pendaran
05-12-2014, 06:14 PM
2. Thor's throw down with the Surfer duding issues 4-6 of Fraction's run where he's swatting away the guys energy attacks and the like.

This is the equivalent of people who dodge or hit Wally West in a fight now being FTL, so.. really no.

Pendaran
05-12-2014, 06:17 PM
2. The stuff with Gor - hitting the dude hard enough to knock him light years away, then following to make an attack precisely on the human-sized dude after the flight, all in 2 panels. But again, this is just as easily arguable as SMvFL.

THe last time this came up, questionable details about the incident came up back and forth, issue number?

Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh
05-12-2014, 07:05 PM
This is the equivalent of people who dodge or hit Wally West in a fight now being FTL, so.. really no.

Fair enough.


THe last time this came up, questionable details about the incident came up back and forth, issue number?

Thor: God of Thunder #9

OverLordArthas
05-12-2014, 07:29 PM
Yeah I'm giving this to Goku.
Vegeta at the start of the Saiyan Saga already bust a planet.

master of read
05-12-2014, 07:31 PM
Yeah I'm giving this to Goku.
Vegeta at the start of the Saiyan Saga already bust a planet.

that was filler and non canon.

OverLordArthas
05-12-2014, 07:38 PM
that was filler and non canon.

You again Gahh!;p
Very well, Lord Freiza already bust Planet Vegeta at first form happy now. :)

Guy Smiley
05-12-2014, 07:39 PM
Guys, the Sentry thing isn't a speed feat for Thor. It's barely a speed for Sentry, at least in the reflexes sense. First off, he wasn't getting "blitzed," in the sense that someone was piling on multiple attacks faster than he could react. He got grabbed and rushed off at FTL speeds. Struggling while being carried at FTL speeds is not a feat. This is actually EXACTLY the argument that led to the mods ruling on travel speed not being applicable, except there it was Sentry carrying Void to the sun. I could elaborate on this more, but I really don't feel I should have to...

EDIT: It's not a bad durability feat for Thor though.

This.

I mean, if Thor reacted to an incoming FTLx1million Sentry, that's one thing, but struggling while being carried? Not a feat, because travel times: Space is big.

Let's put it this way: The closest star to the Earth, Proxima Centauri, is 4.2 light years away. If Sentry was aiming for it and going 1000 times the speed of light, it'd still take over a day to reach it. The closest inhabited star system to Earth in Marvel is probably many many times farther away. Even if Sentry was going a million times the speed of light, there's a good chance a normal person would have time to struggle for a few seconds, much less faster-than-bullet-timing Thor.

Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh
05-12-2014, 08:48 PM
This.

I mean, if Thor reacted to an incoming FTLx1million Sentry, that's one thing, but struggling while being carried? Not a feat, because travel times: Space is big.

Death Sentry Blitz Grabs Thor. (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/62547/3525600-uncanny+avengers+10.jpg)

It all happens and is explained on this page.

EDIT: Page previous to this one is the Uncanny Avengers standing on this Space Station thing talking, and it notes that Wolverine herds a sonic boom hundreds of miles away. Next instant is the page above, with the narration and the reaction time feat. Page after is Sunfire saving Rogue from the rubble of the space station, while Wolverine is eaten by a giant worm.

The Drunkard Kid
05-12-2014, 08:52 PM
Death Sentry Blitz Grabs Thor. (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/62547/3525600-uncanny+avengers+10.jpg)

It all happens and is explained on this page.

Considering that Sentry is passing on a few sentences in the time it takes them to travel to another planet with the starlight actively becoming bars as they pass by in that time frame, it seems fair to say that neither of them are reacting anywhere near as fast as they are traveling. Which is probably for the best because otherwise that would mean that, to Thor and Sentry, that flight would take as long as it would take a normal person to travel to another planet on foot/by car, subjectively.

Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh
05-12-2014, 09:16 PM
Considering that Sentry is passing on a few sentences in the time it takes them to travel to another planet with the starlight actively becoming bars as they pass by in that time frame, it seems fair to say that neither of them are reacting anywhere near as fast as they are traveling. Which is probably for the best because otherwise that would mean that, to Thor and Sentry, that flight would take as long as it would take a normal person to travel to another planet on foot/by car, subjectively.

With the supplemental narration stating that their atoms are being hurled forwards at "many times the speed of light". It's still Thor grabbing the dude that specifically targeted and slammed into him at multiple times the speed of light, and the guy going "hey, cut that shit out" before slamming him down into the surface of a planet that was "many light-years away".

Captain Morgan
05-12-2014, 09:33 PM
With the supplemental narration stating that their atoms are being hurled forwards at "many times the speed of light". It's still Thor grabbing the dude that specifically targeted and slammed into him at multiple times the speed of light, and the guy going "hey, cut that shit out" before slamming him down into the surface of a planet that was "many light-years away".

First off, nothing there demonstrates Sentry was traveling at FTL when he targeted or struck Thor. He could have very easily struck Thor in at mach 35, then accelerated from there. It's like when Superman slams into Darkseid and carries him to the sun. He doesn't need to be FTL in reaction time for that.

Secondly, it isn't like Sentry is doing anything to avoid Thor there. Bob is just grabbing the guy's neck as they rush forward.

Third, and this is the big one, Sentry and Thor are moving at the same relative velocity. It's like if you and I are riding in the same plane. We are both technically hurtling along at however many hundreds of miles per hour, but relative to each other we are stationary, so we could punch each other just fine.

That scan demonstrates the following: A) Thor is durable enough to take that sort of acceleration and impact. B) Sentry can fly (Not react, fly) at crazy FTL. C) Despite Sentry's great speed, there was enough time spent in transit for Thor to struggle a little bit. This just means they spent more than a second or so flying at those speeds. It has no bearing on either of their reflex speeds.

Well, you could make an argument the whole "Sentry initially tackling Thor faster than Thor can react" displays Sentry as a clear superior speed wise, but that's about it.

EDIT: For an amusing demonstration of relative velocity, watch this clip from about the 1:40 mark on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wj2sfYCpHOo

big_adventure
05-12-2014, 10:37 PM
Guys, the Sentry thing isn't a speed feat for Thor. It's barely a speed for Sentry, at least in the reflexes sense. First off, he wasn't getting "blitzed," in the sense that someone was piling on multiple attacks faster than he could react. He got grabbed and rushed off at FTL speeds. Struggling while being carried at FTL speeds is not a feat. This is actually EXACTLY the argument that led to the mods ruling on travel speed not being applicable, except there it was Sentry carrying Void to the sun. I could elaborate on this more, but I really don't feel I should have to...

EDIT: It's not a bad durability feat for Thor though.

Just of note - I wasn't stating that I thought the Sentry thing was a good speedfeat - I was directly replying to a post that said "getting blitzed isn't a speedfeat", and I was saying how it could be one in certain situations. Hell, NuSuperman's very first speedfeat in JL was him getting blitzed and reacting to it enough to knock down Barry.

Slade1
05-13-2014, 06:35 AM
You again Gahh!;p

LOL, this had me laughing.

Guy Smiley
05-13-2014, 07:15 AM
Death Sentry Blitz Grabs Thor. (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/62547/3525600-uncanny+avengers+10.jpg)

It all happens and is explained on this page.

EDIT: Page previous to this one is the Uncanny Avengers standing on this Space Station thing talking, and it notes that Wolverine herds a sonic boom hundreds of miles away. Next instant is the page above, with the narration and the reaction time feat. Page after is Sunfire saving Rogue from the rubble of the space station, while Wolverine is eaten by a giant worm.

Either I'm missing your point, or you're missing mine.

Sentry's flight speed doesn't negate that Thor had however much time it took Sentry to say those sentences to react. Sentry moved at ridonkulous speed. This is a given. Thor did not bat Sentry out of the sky while he was charging Thor at those speeds, which would be a reaction speed feat for Thor. Sentry, at ridonkulous speed, hit Thor before Thor could react, then took at the very least five to fifteen seconds to reach this other planet, based on his speech bubbles. It's not hard to believe Thor could grab at a guy's arms and start prying at them in five to fifteen seconds.

Claiming this as a reaction speed feat for Thor is like claiming I'm a bullet-timer because I punched a guy while riding the bullet train: The speed the train I'm riding is going is irrelevant. It's how long it took to get there that determines my reaction speed.

Seto Kaiba
05-13-2014, 02:11 PM
PICCOLO was able to blow up the moon in Saiyan Saga. Vegeta almost blew up the earth with his Gallic Gun in the saiyan saga. Goku was STATED to be able to destroy the Earth with a Kamehameha if fired from the angle he was. Kid Buu causally blew up the Earth in the Buu arc. SSG has been shown to be vastly above SSJ3 (A form that was defeated in two hits from Bills). Are there people who are honestly saying he's not a planet buster?

Cell and Goku were fighting at speeds not perceivable to normal humans. In fact, I believe the saiyans, Piccolo and Krillan were the only ones able to really follow it. Hell, Roshi and Krillan did it in Dragon Ball.

I'm giving this to Goku. He has the speed advantage definitely. I'd say he has the power advantage as well.

abmccray
05-14-2014, 08:48 PM
I almost can't believe I'm going to dip a toe into this thread (which has both Thor and DBZ speed at issue in one package - the Rumblepocalypse)...

...but what the hell, the kids are sleeping, the wife is out, I've got a glass of something or other:

I was too old to watch DB/DBZ as a kid, and never caught on later on. I have, however (and totally thanks to Rumbles), recently watched about a hundred episodes of the show, DBZ from Androids through the end of the series, skipping a few here and there because, let's face it, they spend a lot of time standing around staring at each other and sweating.



Reading the manga is FAR better for Rumbles purposes :)

The reason being, Toei made a ton of errors and stretched things out to infinity. Doing so, a) makes things inconsistent, and b) warps the general "feeling" of speed in DBZ. The 2 minute long grunting and charging and stuff in the anime is generally a SINGLE panel in the manga. The only regular human that sees them fight all out by the "Z" era is a joke character to not break the consistency of them doing everything in fast speed. There isn't dumb stuff like Cell's neck breaking the kienzan in it, either.

Watching the anime and reading the manga give two completely different "feels" for the levels of characters in the series. Anime makes them feel a bit physically stronger just due to more physical feats (although the manga has things like kids tossing rocks through mountains and stuff being batted through the planet in it, still), and the manga makes them come off as much, much faster.

Also, Battle of the Gods is as canon as canon can be. It's an official continuation of the series written by the creator, and anime will be the format from here on out that will be used to tell more tales in the series, outside of the flashbacks in Toriyama's most recent manga (which also may nullify story of Bardock - whoops!).

Right now, DB canon is:

- Dragon Ball manga
- Yo! Son Goku and his Friends Return!
- Battle of the Gods
- Jaco the Galactic Patrolman

- MAYBE Dragon Ball Online (Toriyama said it's canon, but I'm not sure he wrote as much as he did with Battle of the Gods, for instance)

As such, -current- Goku absorbed his SSJ God powers into his regular SSJ transformation and doesn't go Super 2 or 3 anymore. Meaning that he is ridiculously more powerful than SSJ3, Gohan, or anyone else in the series outside of Bills or Whills, and jumped up multiple "levels" of where he even used to be as SSJ3 in all areas.

Yeoman
05-14-2014, 08:57 PM
R Toriyama's most recent manga (which also may nullify story of Bardock - whoops!).

No, no that's a good thing. Story of Bardock was one of the most poorly put together cash grabs I've seen in a long time. The Dragonball Abridged version felt more professional and would probably fit into canon better. Granted, the same is often also true of the Dragonball Anime and DBZA. Especially when it comes to the movies.

Anyway, IIRC, historically rumbles has gone by the manga for Dragonball unless the OP states otherwise. But that's in the past.

abmccray
05-14-2014, 10:02 PM
No, no that's a good thing. Story of Bardock was one of the most poorly put together cash grabs I've seen in a long time. The Dragonball Abridged version felt more professional and would probably fit into canon better. Granted, the same is often also true of the Dragonball Anime and DBZA. Especially when it comes to the movies.

Anyway, IIRC, historically rumbles has gone by the manga for Dragonball unless the OP states otherwise. But that's in the past.

It went by the manga as it was the only canon at the time. We kind of allowed Bardock, because it didn't conflict anything, until now, and because Toriyama put a nod to it in the manga after the fact. And when Battle of the Gods came out, most people accepted it because it's the official canon continuation of the series, written by the creator, unlike GT or movies. There wasn't a mod ruling, that's just how everyone basically used common sense to apply the canon rules, since BotG -is- primary canon.

I don't really like that Goku's origin is exactly the same as Superman's now; I did like the "all Saiyans are jerks" background it used to have. No big deal though.

Yeoman
05-15-2014, 09:43 PM
It went by the manga as it was the only canon at the time. We kind of allowed Bardock, because it didn't conflict anything, until now, and because Toriyama put a nod to it in the manga after the fact. And when Battle of the Gods came out, most people accepted it because it's the official canon continuation of the series, written by the creator, unlike GT or movies. There wasn't a mod ruling, that's just how everyone basically used common sense to apply the canon rules, since BotG -is- primary canon.

I don't really like that Goku's origin is exactly the same as Superman's now; I did like the "all Saiyans are jerks" background it used to have. No big deal though.

Sorry, got Story of Bardock and Episode of Bardock confused. My apologies. The original Bardock movie was decent. Kinda unnecessary and filler, but over all well done.

I was talking about the one where he mysteriously survives being vaporized worse than anyone ever has and ends up traveling back in time to help his ancestors and oh God I just realized this is the exact same plot as that Batman story after Darkseid murdered him...

The Drunkard Kid
05-16-2014, 12:13 AM
Yeah, I think that one tends to get universal eye rolls.

I liked the original Story of Bardock better than this one, since movie Bardock's build and expressions seemed to combine to give him more personality, especially with the ape like way new Bardock was carrying the space pod, and I don't get why they had Goku incubating for years in the new one, either. Also, Bardock vs Dodoria's gonna was one of my favorite fights in the series, though a good chunk of that may be due to Solid State Scouter being an awesome song.

Cody
05-19-2014, 10:10 AM
To have the gravity that it had and be the size that it was. It would have to be over twice as dense as a white dwarf star.

And just where would that put Frieza busting planet Vegeta then? It is significantly bigger than king kai's planet, roughly the size of Earth if not bigger (hard to say) and it, like King Kai's planet, had 10 times the gravity Earth has.

The Drunkard Kid
05-19-2014, 10:41 AM
And just where would that put Frieza busting planet Vegeta then? It is significantly bigger than king kai's planet, roughly the size of Earth if not bigger (hard to say) and it, like King Kai's planet, had 10 times the gravity Earth has.

If it were Earth-sized, it would have had to be significantly denser than Earth to have that level of Gravity, but nowhere near the density of something that had that Gravity level and was, charitably, about the size of a city block.

Cody
05-19-2014, 10:50 AM
If it were Earth-sized, it would have had to be significantly denser than Earth to have that level of Gravity, but nowhere near the density of something that had that Gravity level and was, charitably, about the size of a city block.

I have seen arguments that claim it would be far denser due to it's size. They used Jupiter as an example, with it being so big and gravity weighing so much. Meaning that, for a planet to have the gravity that Vegeta has, it would have to be significantly bigger than Earth, making it something along the lines of a Dwarf Star level of a bust.

Hazard
05-19-2014, 11:04 AM
I have seen arguments that claim it would be far denser due to it's size. They used Jupiter as an example, with it being so big and gravity weighing so much. Meaning that, for a planet to have the gravity that Vegeta has, it would have to be significantly bigger than Earth, making it something along the lines of a Dwarf Star level of a bust.

Gravity is a size and density game.

There is more than one way to reach 10x Earth's gravity.

King Kai's planet is smaller than earth by a considerable amount. Heck, King Kai's planet is barely a city block, half a city block to be honest.

It has 10 times Earth's gravity. Why? Lots of mass packed into a really small space.

At the same size as Earth a planet would only need 10 times the density to get 10 times the gravity.

Jupiter is larger than Earth. It's gravity is like 2.5 times greater.

It is also a lot less dense than Earth.

Cody
05-19-2014, 11:09 AM
Gravity is a size and density game.

There is more than one way to reach 10x Earth's gravity.

King Kai's planet is smaller than earth by a considerable amount. Heck, King Kai's planet is barely a city block, half a city block to be honest.

It has 10 times Earth's gravity. Why? Lots of mass packed into a really small space.

At the same size as Earth a planet would only need 10 times the density to get 10 times the gravity.

Jupiter is larger than Earth. It's gravity is like 2.5 times greater.

It is also a lot less dense than Earth.

The argument as to why KK planet was that heavy yet so small is due to the standard laws of physics not applying in the realm of the dead. Mainly they went by Akirya's statements where the land of the living was governed by the same laws of physics as ours, while the land of the dead and such, was not. Ergo, tiny planet with 10x Gravity.

But you bring up a great point that I did not think of when debating the guy. Jupiter is nowhere near as dense as Earth. You couldn't even walk on the surface because it isn't even solid.

Wish I thought of that :(.

Jcogginsa
05-19-2014, 11:26 AM
it should be noted the King Kai's planet was originally much larger. Bills blew the rest of it up

Cody
05-19-2014, 11:36 AM
it should be noted the King Kai's planet was originally much larger. Bills blew the rest of it up

Considering it's density? That would say a fuck ton about his destructive capacity.


Fun Fact: In Dragonball Online, during the games present time Goku and Vegeta vanished sometime before the main games story. They left earth to have one last fight in space. They wanted to settle their rivalry for the final time before they died of old age.

During this battle, several supernovas were seen from Earth. Caused as an effect of Goku and Vegeta duking it out.

StupidMoniker
05-19-2014, 11:53 AM
I'd be hesitant to scientifically calculate mass and density in a universe where you can climb a pole to the moon and there are talking rabbits living in atmosphere when you get there.

Cody
05-19-2014, 12:02 PM
I'd be hesitant to scientifically calculate mass and density in a universe where you can climb a pole to the moon and there are talking rabbits living in atmosphere when you get there.

That was more or less retconned almost immediately when Goku met Roshi. At first it was like the more recent manga; time traveler whatshisname, and Doctor Slump. Not really serious and was just meant for laughs.

It became a little more "realistic"(I use that term loosely) just before the first tourney. Otherwise Goku would have had no problems climbing up Korins tower. That and he would not have been doing nothing when the Earth and another planet collided in a comedic fashion during the events in Doctor Slump. And would feel the planet move when Arielie(sp) moved the planet just by jumping on it.

The Drunkard Kid
05-19-2014, 12:04 PM
I'd be hesitant to scientifically calculate mass and density in a universe where you can climb a pole to the moon and there are talking rabbits living in atmosphere when you get there.
That was from an arc with little to no real plot importance in the series except to get Bulma out of her appropriated bunny suit, really early in the series where it was more of a gag manga and they tended to break the 3rd and 4th walls a lot more frequently.

The entire existence of Korin and Kami-sama's towers, and the difficulty and duration of Goku's repeated trips up them despite being many, many times stronger than he was in the Boss Rabbit fight tends to at least make the time frame of his climb to the moon non-Canon. Not to mention that the atmosphere was explicitly a lot thinner at those Heights in the later arcs as well.