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View Full Version : Who has superior pure h2h skill, Spiderman or Superman?



CrimsonComedian
05-12-2014, 02:43 PM
I know neither of those two are considered very skillful despite their many heroic tales and the fact they were once considered the flagship characters of their respective franchises(prior to MCU and Nolan Batman, now things are a little murky), but which of the two is the superior hand to hand fighter? I don't know myself, that's why I am asking.

Blackid
05-12-2014, 07:06 PM
I think that's difficult to say because they have different fighting styles.... Spiderman uses a lot of dodging, throwing and almost a lot of judo. Using his speed and the others momentum to throw them all over the place. Superman uses his speed and muscle to straight up box and wrestle the person to submission. They both are good at it but come across differently. If you're saying who is better at a straight fight, i'd have to say superman but Spiderman is better at using the setting to his advantage. It's like saying who's better at fighting a wrestler or a karate expert? They are both great at their own style.

Guy Smiley
05-12-2014, 07:11 PM
Not counting their powers?

I'd say Spidey. Dude got trained by Iron Fist when he lost his Spider-sense, and I'd guess that he's got some feats during that time to put him above, here.

It'd be different if this was Pre-Nu Supes, who had a number of feats of fighting supervillains when depowered. (I think Sharp said Kobra, for instance.) But I'm guessing NuSupes has no such feats.

master of read
05-12-2014, 07:13 PM
Not counting their powers?

I'd say Spidey. Dude got trained by Iron Fist when he lost his Spider-sense, and I'd guess that he's got some feats during that time to put him above, here.

It'd be different if this was Pre-Nu Supes, who had a number of feats of fighting supervillains when depowered. (I think Sharp said Kobra, for instance.) But I'm guessing NuSupes has no such feats.

spidey also got some training from daredevil and cap.

Miracleman
05-12-2014, 07:14 PM
Not counting their powers?

I'd say Spidey. Dude got trained by Iron Fist when he lost his Spider-sense, and I'd guess that he's got some feats during that time to put him above, here.

It'd be different if this was Pre-Nu Supes, who had a number of feats of fighting supervillains when depowered. (I think Sharp said Kobra, for instance.) But I'm guessing NuSupes has no such feats.


That was Shang Chi,not Iron Fist. He taught him a new animal based on the spider that works in conjunction with his spidersense.

Staticx
05-12-2014, 09:35 PM
Probably Superman. He already showed in New Krypton that he knows pressure points. He's also versed in Torquasm Rao and Vo.

Fast
05-12-2014, 10:03 PM
I would say Spidey. The aforementioned training from Shang would help but also I'm envisioning this as both reduced to peak human stats and Pete would adjust to that much easier and his style isn't necessarily on outmuscling/speeding the enemy since he is often weaker than his enemy and has quite a few guys who match or maybe even negligibly exceed his speed (I can't remember if some symbiotes or others he fight are faster than him). Still I know Superman is officially trained in some martial arts but I'm not sure he uses it all that much in feats.

Zagreus
05-13-2014, 06:18 AM
If they were matched up, strength and speed equalized, no powers... I think I'd give it to Spidey. Supes has some Batman and Kryptonian training (or at least did, Pre52, not up so much on NU) but Spidey has Shang Chi training, and just seems like a more canny opponent. I don't think either has a huge training edge, so I would just go for presentation, and Spidey is by far the more cunning opponent, and has to rely on outwitting his foes, while Supes does at times as well, it's not as much in a melee context.
"If I use my heat vision and then freeze the trigger to below absolute zero then fly it into orbit, the alien device will not go critical..." He thinks, don't get me wrong. But it's not about how not to get his @$$ beat generally speaking.

Hazard
05-13-2014, 06:49 AM
Like other have said, Shang Chi trained Peter for a while after the latter lost his spider-sense.

This culminated in Peter beating down like dozen spider-powered guys during Spider-Island.

Without any gear.

Dark Soul # 7
05-13-2014, 07:25 AM
New52 Supes seems more like a smart brawler than a martial artist. But wasn't Post-Crisis Superman trained in some Kryptonian fighting styles?

Slade1
05-13-2014, 07:37 AM
New52 Supes seems more like a smart brawler than a martial artist. But wasn't Post-Crisis Superman trained in some Kryptonian fighting styles?

Yeah he had Torqusm Vo training or whatever it was called and training from Batman as well. Once when he lost his powers he was doing flips and using pressure point attacks and showed some nice skill. I'm not too sure how that stacks up against Peter.

Tanrage
05-13-2014, 07:40 AM
Doesn't Peter rely on his enhanced reflexes and agility quite a bit? With his training mostly consisting of him learning how to hone that edge even further? *If* that's True I'd say Superman, bigger (Better reach) and possibly stronger (Going by build, iffy I know) with training designed for standard humans...

Hazard
05-13-2014, 07:47 AM
Doesn't Peter rely on his enhanced reflexes and agility quite a bit? With his training mostly consisting of him learning how to hone that edge even further? *If* that's True I'd say Superman, bigger (Better reach) and possibly stronger (Going by build, iffy I know) with training designed for standard humans...

Peter lost his spider-sense and was pretty much blind.

He almost got hit by a bus and lost to Spider-Woman rather easily because he was too used to moving according to what his Spider-sense told him to do.

That's why he seeks training from Shang Chi.

By the end, he beats people who are every bit as fast and agile as he is (everyone got spider powers in Spider Island) without trouble, despite him not having his spider-sense.

UltraMagnetic
05-13-2014, 08:22 AM
Peter lost his spider-sense and was pretty much blind.

He almost got hit by a bus and lost to Spider-Woman rather easily because he was too used to moving according to what his Spider-sense told him to do.

That's why he seeks training from Shang Chi.

By the end, he beats people who are every bit as fast and agile as he is (everyone got spider powers in Spider Island) without trouble, despite him not having his spider-sense.

The fact that Superman has been shown to defeat trained opponents with or without his powers to me shows him as a capable combatant. If Peter lost his powers would he be a match for someone like Kobra in just str8 h2h?

Evil Sneak
05-13-2014, 09:10 AM
The fact that Superman has been shown to defeat trained opponents with or without his powers to me shows him as a capable combatant. If Peter lost his powers would he be a match for someone like Kobra in just str8 h2h?

If you're referring to the JLA: Foreign Bodies Graphic Novel, please don't. The Superman (in Kobra's body) vs Kobra (in Batman's body) was tossed out here on the board due to SM vs FL levels of awfulness.

Kobra has beaten Batman in hand to hand at least once. He's way above de-powered Superman's pay grade.

Tanrage
05-13-2014, 11:13 AM
AS I understand it all the old rulings have been wiped out by thr reboot, beyond that I don't recall it being declared inadmissible in the first place (Perfectly wiling to admit I might simply be unaware here though).

Surtur
05-13-2014, 11:50 AM
People seem to think "this person was trained by such and such" to equate to a feat. Like okay, Iron Fist trained Spider-Man. That tells me nothing specific about his h2h skills. So, he trained him to do..what? What "training" was it? What fighting styles? What specifics do we have that would allow this to be usable as a feat? I am not saying Superman is superior, but "dude got trained!" doesn't tell us much for on panel feats. Likewise being trained by someone insanely skilled doesn't automatically grant the person even 1/10th the skill of the trainer. It would be awesome if it did because I'd be a golden glove boxing champ by now, but alas..


AS I understand it all the old rulings have been wiped out by thr reboot, beyond that I don't recall it being declared inadmissible in the first place (Perfectly wiling to admit I might simply be unaware here though).

At one point it was said they were all wiped out, since the whole "Thanos is FTL" was gone, and yet..now there is a mod rulings thread with various rulings so some did transfer over. Do not ask me how it was decided which ones were or were not as I can't answer that.

Daenarys Stormborn
05-13-2014, 12:06 PM
Does Spider-man know comic style pressure points? If not, I would say pre nu supes was more skilled in striking, whereas maybe...maybe spider-man was more skilled in, um, controlling the flow of combat.

Seto Kaiba
05-13-2014, 02:43 PM
Peter lost his spider-sense and was pretty much blind.

He almost got hit by a bus and lost to Spider-Woman rather easily because he was too used to moving according to what his Spider-sense told him to do.

That's why he seeks training from Shang Chi.

By the end, he beats people who are every bit as fast and agile as he is (everyone got spider powers in Spider Island) without trouble, despite him not having his spider-sense.

And then he got his Spider Sense back and REALLY cleaned up.

Though the Way of the Spider as it was called depends on his powers. I dunno how effective it would be without them. But I'm given the edge to Spidey.

Guy Smiley
05-13-2014, 05:04 PM
People seem to think "this person was trained by such and such" to equate to a feat. Like okay, Iron Fist trained Spider-Man. That tells me nothing specific about his h2h skills. So, he trained him to do..what? What "training" was it? What fighting styles? What specifics do we have that would allow this to be usable as a feat? I am not saying Superman is superior, but "dude got trained!" doesn't tell us much for on panel feats. Likewise being trained by someone insanely skilled doesn't automatically grant the person even 1/10th the skill of the trainer. It would be awesome if it did because I'd be a golden glove boxing champ by now, but alas..

Eh. I specifically pointed out the Shang Chi storyline "presumably gave him some feats". I hadn't read the story myself, but knew a power-up arc when I heard about it, and trusted others who had read the story to fill in the feats or correct me.

Sure enough, Hazard points out that it's enough for Spidey to stomp an entire group of people with Spider-Man powers later.

Eternal Torment
05-13-2014, 06:19 PM
Eh. I specifically pointed out the Shang Chi storyline "presumably gave him some feats". I hadn't read the story myself, but knew a power-up arc when I heard about it, and trusted others who had read the story to fill in the feats or correct me.

Sure enough, Hazard points out that it's enough for Spidey to stomp an entire group of people with Spider-Man powers later.

I wonder, did they have the full platter (including Spidey Sense)?

Hazard
05-13-2014, 06:42 PM
@ET: Hawkeye at least, complained how the Spider-Sense was messing with his well honed reflexes, IRRC.

It was part of a joke about how Peter's powers were completely messing his usual style of fighting.

Also, managed to dig up some feats... instead of packing like I'm supposed to be doing right now.

Shang Chi made Peter wear an inhibitor collar for their training:
http://i.imgur.com/VqZidkb.jpg

In later stages, he trains Peter without it but still without his spider-sense:
http://i.imgur.com/X9A8Lqz.jpg

Spider-Man fighting the new Madame Web. Peter, who still hasn't gotten his spider sense back, makes a point of noting she has spider powers and is pre-cognitive to levels greater than his own (seriously, she outright sees the future):
http://i.imgur.com/sngdS5G.jpg

I couldn't find the next scan but I am positive Peter won, IIRC.

dupersuper
05-13-2014, 09:29 PM
Yeah he had Torqusm Vo training or whatever it was called and training from Batman as well.

Plus Wonder Woman and Mongul Jr., and picked up a little covering boxing matches for the Planet.

abhilegend
05-13-2014, 10:45 PM
A depowered and amnesiac Superman pulls off some moves that wouldn’t be too shabby for Captain America to down some parademons. Adventures Of #426
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/adventuresof426a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/adventuresof426b.jpg

Wonder if he has ever tried his hand at darts? Action Comics #657
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/ActionComics657a.jpg

Another decent showing for Superman’s throwing accuracy. Superman v2 #112
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/aim/superman112d.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/aim/superman112e.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/aim/superman112f.jpg

Shows decent combat skill whilst fighting Mongul Jnr, combining all of his offensive powers into one potent combo. Superman v2 #152
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/superman152b.jpg

Shows off some of his martial arts training. Man Of Steel #96
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/ManOfSteel096.jpg

There’s no specific skill showing here, but I’ve included it to highlight the fact that Superman does actually have nearly a thousand years’ worth of fighting experience. Action Comics #761
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/ActionComics761a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/ActionComics761b.jpg

Uses some martial arts technique to target Mongul’s damaged ribs. Superman v2 #153
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/superman153a.jpg

Taps a pressure point to instantly KO Tempest. Superman v2 #163
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/superman163a.jpg

Shows off some nice hand-to-hand skill against Starfire. Superman/Batman #4
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/supermanbatman04a.jpg

Demonstrates how his experience and skill with his powers can give him the edge against a similarly powered but inexperienced foe, Preus. Action Comics #824
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/ActionComics824c.jpg

Shows off some of the combat skills taught to him by Batman and Wonder Woman to gain the upper hand vs Zod. Superman v2 #215
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/superman215a.jpg

Induces temporary paralysis with a pressure point strike. Superman/Batman #23
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/supermanbatman23a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/supermanbatman23b.jpg

A powerless Superman gets a solid month hard training from the Batman in how to fight and operate as a street-level hero. Superman/Batman Annual #2

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/supermanbatmanannual02c.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/supermanbatmanannual02d.jpg

Swarmed by powerless humans, Superman first vibrates the air around him to push them off, then catches all of them with a cushion of air. Superman/Shazam: First Thunder #3
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/firstthunder03a.jpg

Not necessarily combat skill, but one heckuva showing of his aiming abilities. Superman picks out a bullseye on the moon (or would have done if someone hadn’t gotten in the way!) with a home run he hit back on Earth (see the Striking feats section for more). Superman #673
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/aim/superman673f.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/aim/superman673g.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/aim/superman673h.jpg

Superman uses his experience and skill to briefly gain the upper hand against Paragon, who has all of Superman's powers at higher levels. Superman #674
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/superman674a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/superman674b.jpg

Superman was taught hand-to-hand combat by Earth’s greatest proponent, and he’s a great study! World Of New Krypton #3
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/WorldOfNewKrypton03a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/WorldOfNewKrypton03b.jpg

Jonathan
05-13-2014, 10:49 PM
If they were both depowered I would expect Clark to win out over Peter, but that's about as close to answering this question as I feel I can reasonably say.

Guy Smiley
05-13-2014, 11:42 PM
A depowered and amnesiac Superman pulls off some moves that wouldn’t be too shabby for Captain America to down some parademons.
*huge list*


How many of those are current Supes?

Because, yeah, Post-Crisis Supes is impressive, but if we're defaulting (as usual) to current Supes from lack of OP specification, he's not getting a lot of those as feats. NuSupes explicitly doesn't have the same past as Pre-Crisis Supes, has way different power levels, etc., which is to be expected from a company-wide continuity reboot.

If you're just posting them specifically to show what Post-Crisis Supes was capable of, then yeah, rock on.

abhilegend
05-13-2014, 11:47 PM
How many of those are current Supes?

Because, yeah, Post-Crisis Supes is impressive, but if we're defaulting (as usual) to current Supes from lack of OP specification, he's not getting a lot of those as feats. NuSupes explicitly doesn't have the same past as Pre-Crisis Supes, has way different power levels, etc., which is to be expected from a company-wide continuity reboot.

If you're just posting them specifically to show what Post-Crisis Supes was capable of, then yeah, rock on.

Post crisis Superman. DCnU Superman beat down an equal to himself because he knew boxing.

lol

Tanrage
05-14-2014, 03:25 AM
Thing is Peter's fighting style explicitly takes advantage of his enhanced reflexes and agility, minus those just how good is he at h2h? What kind of combat feats does he have as a normal?

Surtur
05-14-2014, 11:04 AM
Eh. I specifically pointed out the Shang Chi storyline "presumably gave him some feats". I hadn't read the story myself, but knew a power-up arc when I heard about it, and trusted others who had read the story to fill in the feats or correct me.

Sure enough, Hazard points out that it's enough for Spidey to stomp an entire group of people with Spider-Man powers later.

How does he stomp them though? What particularly skilled moves does he use? Also if Spider-man had his powers then it throws into question how much of it was skill and how much of it was "dude is more experienced at using the spider power set".

You realize Superman has done the same thing right? With the whole "fights multiple Kryptonians and does well" so I'd be curious why that would put Spider-Man above him.