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Ite
05-12-2014, 10:10 PM
Hulk (Strongest Version)
Namor (Underwater)
The Thing
Hercules
Post-Crisis Superman
Thor
Post-Crisis Captain Marvel
She-Hulk
Thanos
Gladiator
Luke Cage
Post-Crisis Martian Manhunter
Juggernaut
Doomsday
Rhino
Wonder Woman
Sentry
Colossus
Wonder Man

Jonathan
05-12-2014, 10:16 PM
I can think of two characters right of the top of my head that are named Gladiator. I assume you mean the Shi'ar guy?

Ite
05-12-2014, 10:17 PM
I can think of two characters right of the top of my head that are named Gladiator. I assume you mean the Shi'ar guy?

Yes. Who is the other Gladiator?

Fast
05-12-2014, 10:21 PM
Yes. Who is the other Gladiator?

A daredevil villain (turned Ally IIRC). Very street-level and would bottom out this list

penguin-in-leather-jacket
05-12-2014, 10:25 PM
from weakest to strongest:

Luke Cage
She-Hulk
The Thing
Rhino (i believe he's somewhat stronger but much stupider than Ben Grimm)
Colossus (i don't think the gap between him and the previous two is supposed to be much)
Wonder Man (this may be beyond wrong)
Hercules (again, maybe beyond wrong)

and I really have no idea who to put next.

Fast
05-12-2014, 10:29 PM
Thanos
Gladiator
Juggernaut (Classic?)
Doomsday
Post-Crisis Superman
Post-Crisis Captain Marvel
Thor (sans hammer)
Wonder Woman
Post-Crisis Martian Manhunter
Namor
Hercules
Colossus
Wonder Man
The Thing
She-Hulk
Rhino
Luke Cage

Sentry (Is his strength applicable? I thought it was based on him being part cosmic cube or something which would make his strength kinda reality warping than pure power?)

Hulk (Strongest Version) Which version is strongest I'm sure I'm missing an obscure super strong Hulk.

I gave up. I'm sure it's all wrong but I'm too tired to think about this anymore. I'll think about it again tomorrow.

Yeoman
05-12-2014, 10:57 PM
I can think of two characters right of the top of my head that are named Gladiator. I assume you mean the Shi'ar guy?

He's a Strontian, which is similar to, but legally distinct from, a Kryptonian. :)

big_adventure
05-13-2014, 01:15 AM
A few modifications for Fast's list :

Sentry is as strong as Thanos, roughly. Perhaps stronger, physically.

Wonder Man comes in over Colossus, I'd say, unless we are for some reason talking about JuggyPete - and I don't see why we would be.

Post-Crisis MM should probably come in dead equal to Superman and Captain Marvel, and above WW.

Thor should be right about where Kal and Billy (and J'onn, therefore) are.

She-Hulk is probably stronger than Ben.

Hercules ought to be above Namor, and probably around the Thor-Supes-CM-MM level - he lacks as many high-end feats, but he's always been portrayed as Thor's equal in strength, and doesn't really have anything to argue against the portrayal.

Did Doomsday ever get feats for being on the level with end-of-age Post Crisis Superman? Because I don't know of any (though I don't argue that they may exist).

So, revised list:

Thanos-Sentry
Glads
Supes-CM-Thor-MM-Herc (perhaps)
Hulk (Strongest Version)
Doomsday
WW
Wonder Man
She-Hulk
Thing
Colossus
Rhino
Cage

Jonathan
05-13-2014, 01:59 AM
A few modifications for Fast's list :

Sentry is as strong as Thanos, roughly. Perhaps stronger, physically.

Wonder Man comes in over Colossus, I'd say, unless we are for some reason talking about JuggyPete - and I don't see why we would be.

Post-Crisis MM should probably come in dead equal to Superman and Captain Marvel, and above WW.

Thor should be right about where Kal and Billy (and J'onn, therefore) are.

She-Hulk is probably stronger than Ben.

Hercules ought to be above Namor, and probably around the Thor-Supes-CM-MM level - he lacks as many high-end feats, but he's always been portrayed as Thor's equal in strength, and doesn't really have anything to argue against the portrayal.

Did Doomsday ever get feats for being on the level with end-of-age Post Crisis Superman? Because I don't know of any (though I don't argue that they may exist).

So, revised list:

Thanos-Sentry
Glads
Supes-CM-Thor-MM-Herc (perhaps)
Hulk (Strongest Version)
Doomsday
WW
Wonder Man
She-Hulk
Thing
Colossus
Rhino
Cage

I agree except that Hulk could potentially be at the top if we consider his madder-stronger angle. Also, I'm pretty sure MM is suppose to be slightly below Supes and CapMarvel.

big_adventure
05-13-2014, 03:14 AM
I agree except that Hulk could potentially be at the top if we consider his madder-stronger angle. Also, I'm pretty sure MM is suppose to be slightly below Supes and CapMarvel.

Hulk is a walking no-limits fallacy. In narrative, he's "the strongest one there is" and without any real limit. However, he is lacking in feats compared to a lot of the high-end types here - at least as long as one is smart enough to just flat-out ignore most of what we see in WWH.

I am not particularly sure that there is a bigger pile of PIS than WWH, and this makes feats for Hulk pretty tough to use. How valid is Hulk fighting Sentry when Sentry is literally forgetting all of his powers? How valid is the scenario when one of dozens of telekinetic-types or tech-types didn't fling the guy into space? WTF, Chuck - you're not going to trivially shut this guy down because reasons that don't seem nearly as important as deathdeathdeath???? Strange - you dimensional-portal-opening, intergalactic-teleporting dude you, you can't just drop him into the sun, or into a nice sleep dimension or something? Tony, you don't CHECK your ammo before assuming it's good? Reed, what, negative zone too crowded? Galactus-fighting suit at the cleaners? At least they had the good sense to keep Thor dead for the event. And all of that is just scratching the surface.

Slade1
05-13-2014, 06:13 AM
Wasn't there a feat for the Hulk where he one-shots a planet twice the size of Earth? I haven't seen the scans or the comic so I don't know what the context is though.

Daenarys Stormborn
05-13-2014, 08:18 AM
Hulk (Strongest Version)
Namor (Underwater)
The Thing
Hercules
Post-Crisis Superman
Thor
Post-Crisis Captain Marvel
She-Hulk
Thanos
Gladiator
Luke Cage
Post-Crisis Martian Manhunter
Juggernaut
Doomsday
Rhino
Wonder Woman
Sentry
Colossus
Wonder Man

You know, I looked into gladiator via respect thread and didn't see many strength feats. I remember Gladiator was always touted as planet buster and was never interested enough to look him up. I finally did. The scan I saw shows him first flying into the planet and then punching it 2 or 3 times before it's finished. Impressive, sure, but not a one punch boom. Also, I didn't see any other non combat strength feats of that level. Maybe the respect thread was lacking? Don't know. He had a bunch of combat feats...but I have no clue how strong nova prime, vulcan, etc are to judge what those fights mean. Any other feats of gladiator performing planet level strength feats?

Wiki says he's been around 37 years so I'd expect he'd have a bunch.

Captain Morgan
05-13-2014, 09:07 AM
You know, I looked into gladiator via respect thread and didn't see many strength feats. I remember Gladiator was always touted as planet buster and was never interested enough to look him up. I finally did. The scan I saw shows him first flying into the planet and then punching it 2 or 3 times before it's finished. Impressive, sure, but not a one punch boom. Also, I didn't see any other non combat strength feats of that level. Maybe the respect thread was lacking? Don't know. He had a bunch of combat feats...but I have no clue how strong nova prime, vulcan, etc are to judge what those fights mean. Any other feats of gladiator performing planet level strength feats?

Wiki says he's been around 37 years so I'd expect he'd have a bunch.

He's knocked Thor out in a handful of punches before.

big_adventure
05-13-2014, 09:10 AM
You know, I looked into gladiator via respect thread and didn't see many strength feats. I remember Gladiator was always touted as planet buster and was never interested enough to look him up. I finally did. The scan I saw shows him first flying into the planet and then punching it 2 or 3 times before it's finished. Impressive, sure, but not a one punch boom. Also, I didn't see any other non combat strength feats of that level. Maybe the respect thread was lacking? Don't know. He had a bunch of combat feats...but I have no clue how strong nova prime, vulcan, etc are to judge what those fights mean. Any other feats of gladiator performing planet level strength feats?

Wiki says he's been around 37 years so I'd expect he'd have a bunch.

To be fair, Gladiator isn't really a hero and has almost never been the main character of anything, hence the whole "I don't have a ton of on-panel non-combat feats" thing.

He has the couple-of-punch-planet feat on panel. He has his son ruminating about what he can do easily, right after the P5 beat him down (holding a black hole in his hands, stuff like that) - it's off panel, but more-or-less in character for the guy. He's got on-panel stuff for swimming through the heart of a supermassive star.

As far as his combat feats - Vulcan was a legit team-wrecker (and fleet-wrecker) who could fight Black Bolt to a draw, requiring a suicide shot from BB to end his threat (Oh, War of Dragonball Kings...). Nova Prime did things like rip an amped Annihilus inside out, obliterate a huge portion of an annihilation wave fleet, and make a credible-though-losing fight with the Silver Surfer, survive getting ripped through Galactus' planet-eater machine and solo Glads' cousin (using a weakness, to be sure, but it's still impressive as hell) and flat-out scare a cosmic-control-rod holding Blastarr with a threat. Kallark also has a bunch of feats for soloing starfleets and such by just ripping through them. He's proven stronger than Thor when they've fought.

Captain Morgan
05-13-2014, 09:12 AM
A few modifications for Fast's list :

Sentry is as strong as Thanos, roughly. Perhaps stronger, physically.

Wonder Man comes in over Colossus, I'd say, unless we are for some reason talking about JuggyPete - and I don't see why we would be.

Post-Crisis MM should probably come in dead equal to Superman and Captain Marvel, and above WW.

Thor should be right about where Kal and Billy (and J'onn, therefore) are.

She-Hulk is probably stronger than Ben.

Hercules ought to be above Namor, and probably around the Thor-Supes-CM-MM level - he lacks as many high-end feats, but he's always been portrayed as Thor's equal in strength, and doesn't really have anything to argue against the portrayal.

Did Doomsday ever get feats for being on the level with end-of-age Post Crisis Superman? Because I don't know of any (though I don't argue that they may exist).

So, revised list:

Thanos-Sentry
Glads
Supes-CM-Thor-MM-Herc (perhaps)
Hulk (Strongest Version)
Doomsday
WW
Wonder Man
She-Hulk
Thing
Colossus
Rhino
Cage

I would probably rank Thor just below Supes personally, and Manhunter below Thor. While J'onn can make Superman bleed and work for it, in pure strength he's pretty clearly below. He's got some decent stuff, like helping Wonder Woman and Supes move the Earth, but its his other powers that make him the most powerful guy on the planet.

Decades ago mindless Hulk managed to take on Herc, Namor, Doc Samson, and Wonder Man at the same time. Hulk amped up by Apocalypse managed to pretty much overpower the Juggernaut. WWH was far from his highest showing.

Pendaran
05-13-2014, 10:27 AM
You know, I looked into gladiator via respect thread and didn't see many strength feats. I remember Gladiator was always touted as planet buster and was never interested enough to look him up. I finally did. The scan I saw shows him first flying into the planet and then punching it 2 or 3 times before it's finished. Impressive, sure, but not a one punch boom. Also, I didn't see any other non combat strength feats of that level. Maybe the respect thread was lacking? Don't know. He had a bunch of combat feats...but I have no clue how strong nova prime, vulcan, etc are to judge what those fights mean. Any other feats of gladiator performing planet level strength feats?

Wiki says he's been around 37 years so I'd expect he'd have a bunch.

How many times do you think Gladiator has appeared in 37 years compared to any major character? Of those showings, what fraction of them do you figure involve Gladiator doing anything at all? (the answer, if you are wondering, is he has appeared barely at all compared to major characters, with years and years of him not showing up, at all, and of those appearances, where he actually does anything of note? even fewer)

Or: saying "Gladiator has been around 37 years" is remarkably disingenuous.

He has a relative handful of showings. They include things like punching a planet apart with his fists, knocking out Thor in a handful of punches, completely wrecking Vulcan, the like.

big_adventure
05-13-2014, 10:33 AM
I would probably rank Thor just below Supes personally, and Manhunter below Thor. While J'onn can make Superman bleed and work for it, in pure strength he's pretty clearly below. He's got some decent stuff, like helping Wonder Woman and Supes move the Earth, but its his other powers that make him the most powerful guy on the planet.

Decades ago mindless Hulk managed to take on Herc, Namor, Doc Samson, and Wonder Man at the same time. Hulk amped up by Apocalypse managed to pretty much overpower the Juggernaut. WWH was far from his highest showing.

I THINK you are thinking of when Hulk got split from banner for a time, and his actual "All at once" thing was Herc, Namor, Iron Man (silver and red), and Wonder Man. Then he lost an aikido match against an old woman (not a joke), before finally getting beaten into unconsciousness by all the avengers ever (conveniently, Thor was not available, like during almost all the Hulk rampage stories ever).

Anarchist
05-13-2014, 10:49 AM
On Gladiator: I'm not doubting he very strong, but personally I don't see him above Thor or Supes in strength alone (!).
Correct me, but when it comes to lifting he really doesn't have that many feats (that put him above the above), I think his insane destruction feats are a result of his Flash-like speed.
If you have Superman-strength and flash-like speed, its no wonder that you hit hard enough to crack a planet in a few blows.

big_adventure
05-13-2014, 10:50 AM
More for gladiator:

Joke-stomping the FF, including punching Ben into orbit and blowing Torch out like a birthday candle. This was while confused, having been blasted by Skrulls using a suicide weapon.

big_adventure
05-13-2014, 10:53 AM
On Gladiator: I'm not doubting he very strong, but personally I don't see him above Thor or Supes in strength alone (!).
Correct me, but when it comes to lifting he really doesn't have that many feats (that put him above the above), I think his insane destruction feats are a result of his Flash-like speed.
If you have Superman-strength and flash-like speed, its no wonder that you hit hard enough to crack a planet in a few blows.

Thing is, Thor, specifically, is generally more durable than he even is strong, and Glads is relatively strong enough to pound Thor down in a few punches.

He also did a nice neck snap on Hyperion, but his power can vary by a lot.

Pendaran
05-13-2014, 11:01 AM
On Gladiator: I'm not doubting he very strong, but personally I don't see him above Thor or Supes in strength alone (!).
Correct me, but when it comes to lifting he really doesn't have that many feats (that put him above the above), I think his insane destruction feats are a result of his Flash-like speed.
If you have Superman-strength and flash-like speed, its no wonder that you hit hard enough to crack a planet in a few blows.

He wasn't using his speed to any particularly notable degree when he punched apart that planet, nor when he knocked out Thor, nor when he fucked up Vulcan, and when with his open palm he blunted Hyperion's lunging punch, that's not especially involving speed either, for all the note of the fight being in nanoseconds.


If you have Superman-strength and flash-like speed, its no wonder that you hit hard enough to crack a planet in a few blows.

Okay, this thread is starting to get into board meme out of nothing places, so just to be clear, Gladiator hit the planet thrice. It was now chunks of planet. He didn't simply crack it. It shattered into pieces.

Pendaran
05-13-2014, 11:09 AM
including punching Ben into orbit

No, that never happened. What he did do were things like strain the Invisible Woman's forcefield to the point that she blacked out from the feedback (which she felt was part of Gladiator's strength having a psionic component, but, Gladiator's strength does have that component, so really, that's part of his oomph), stretch Reed out to the point that he could not reconstitute himself for some time and fell unconscious from the pain/being taken past his limits, he did blow out the Torch (while laughing at his nova flame), and otherwise mess up the Thing, but orbit was not involved. And yes, he did all that despite a mild concussion from an explosion that Reed measured as having been capable of taking out half of the solar system had it not been contained (which brings up a nebulous "did Gladiator contain it?" at that as I'm sort of iffy on the skrulls giving any kind of fuck about the solar system when they've already decided to kill themselves. Ontop of which they were intentionally trying to kill the FF, blowing up the solar system would accomplish that just fine).

He did render the Thing completely helpless with a punch though, then fully KO him by throwing him into the Baxter Building.

big_adventure
05-13-2014, 11:15 AM
No, that never happened. What he did do were things like strain the Invisible Woman's forcefield to the point that she blacked out from the feedback (which she felt was part of Gladiator's strength having a psionic component, but, Gladiator's strength does have that component, so really, that's part of his oomph), stretch Reed out to the point that he could not reconstitute himself and fell unconscious from the pain/being taken past his limits, he did blow out the Torch (while laughing at his nova flame), and otherwise mess up the Thing, but orbit was not involved. And yes, he did all that despite a mild concussion from an explosion that Reed measured as having been capable of taking out half of the solar system had it not been contained (which brings up a nebulous "did Gladiator contain it?" at that as I'm sort of iffy on the skrulls giving any kind of fuck about the solar system when they've already decided to kill themselves. Ontop of which they were intentionally trying to kill the FF, blowing up the solar system would accomplish that just fine).

I could swear that his fight ended with Ben floating in space saying "he punched me into orbit" - but I haven't read the issue since it was new. Searching it now...

Anarchist
05-13-2014, 11:15 AM
Alright, like I said, correct me if I'm wrong ;)
I guess Glads is really above Thor in strength, though imO (!) with equalized speed, Thor would have a serious chance of winning, with his hammer being so versaille.

And the Vulcan-thing is a little confusing.
I know ABC-Logic isn't good, but:
Black Bolt whispered into Glads ear and it knocked him out, while a full-blown SCREAM right in Vulcan's face didn't kill him or slow him down that long (http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130422175156/akatsukiafterlife/es/images/8/84/Black-bolt_Vulcan_7.jpg and http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111145037/3595594-wok3-2.jpg), only after the fault was created.
And Glads was able to waste Vulcan with a few punches.

Does that mean that Glads was just not that self-confident when he fought BB?

Pendaran
05-13-2014, 11:21 AM
Black Bolt whispered into Glads ear and it knocked him out, while a full-blown SCREAM right in Vulcan's face didn't kill him or slow him down that long (http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...t_Vulcan_7.jpg and http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...594-wok3-2.jpg), only after the fault was created.
And Glads was able to waste Vulcan with a few punches.

BB using his voice in that bomb chamber was going to powering up the bomb when it was used, even outside of the helmet thing, as noted from that when he would use it, the energy charge of the bomb would go up, it's even right on the scan you post. Had Bolt otherwise done some uncontrolled use of his voice, it should have obliterated everything around them.

So that really doesn't work for what you're going with.

big_adventure
05-13-2014, 11:22 AM
I could swear that his fight ended with Ben floating in space saying "he punched me into orbit" - but I haven't read the issue since it was new. Searching it now...

Aaaaand I was wrong, it was not that fight. He knocks Ben through about 30 cars, the hit leaving him dazed, before hr tosses him from the ground about 3 blocks across and up through the 35-ish floor of the Baxter Building.

Pendaran
05-13-2014, 11:25 AM
or slow him down that long

It took him out for a long enough stretch that Crystal could extended talk at Black Bolt for two pages, while rendering the Teragen crystals inert, then walk over to him and help him walk over to Lockjaw. No one in that sequence looked especially rushed. We have differing definitions of "long".

edit: Also, if that's the standard you're going to invoke, Bolt whispering into Gladiator's ear was described as having the effect of "sending him reeling", not knocking him out. He was ultimately able to recover and rejoin the fight. And that was a whisper right into the dude's ear. Bolt's whispers, without being so close, have otherwise knocked out the Hulk, if you're wanting to indeed make comparisons.

Pendaran
05-13-2014, 11:26 AM
the hit leaving him dazed

Ben couldn't especially move under his own power or do anything but be sprawled there like a lump fighting to stay conscious, bit more than dazed.

Fast
05-13-2014, 11:51 AM
A few modifications for Fast's list :

Sentry is as strong as Thanos, roughly. Perhaps stronger, physically.

Wonder Man comes in over Colossus, I'd say, unless we are for some reason talking about JuggyPete - and I don't see why we would be.

Post-Crisis MM should probably come in dead equal to Superman and Captain Marvel, and above WW.

Thor should be right about where Kal and Billy (and J'onn, therefore) are.

She-Hulk is probably stronger than Ben.

Hercules ought to be above Namor, and probably around the Thor-Supes-CM-MM level - he lacks as many high-end feats, but he's always been portrayed as Thor's equal in strength, and doesn't really have anything to argue against the portrayal.

Did Doomsday ever get feats for being on the level with end-of-age Post Crisis Superman? Because I don't know of any (though I don't argue that they may exist).

So, revised list:

Thanos-Sentry
Glads
Supes-CM-Thor-MM-Herc (perhaps)
Hulk (Strongest Version)
Doomsday
WW
Wonder Man
She-Hulk
Thing
Colossus
Rhino
Cage

This does specify Namor underwater and I feel that he has done better against Hulk (underwater) than Herc has. She-Hulk used to be weaker than Ben but maybe she has surpassed his feats recently. Thor to me understanding was weaker than Supes but could make up that difference by using his Hammer to increase his damage output. Also, while MM is in that ball park I'd say he is noticeably weaker than Supes and Cap in pure strength; his versatility allows him to overcome them though.

As Sharp would say YMMV

Daenarys Stormborn
05-13-2014, 11:53 AM
He's knocked Thor out in a handful of punches before.
Okay.


To be fair, Gladiator isn't really a hero and has almost never been the main character of anything, hence the whole "I don't have a ton of on-panel non-combat feats" thing.

He has the couple-of-punch-planet feat on panel. He has his son ruminating about what he can do easily, right after the P5 beat him down (holding a black hole in his hands, stuff like that) - it's off panel, but more-or-less in character for the guy. He's got on-panel stuff for swimming through the heart of a supermassive star.

Swimming through stars is a durability feat though and off panel is off panel. Also, from what I saw Gladiator is extremely durable (Star+ level) but his strength feats weren't anywhere as impressive or numerable.

As far as his combat feats - Vulcan was a legit team-wrecker (and fleet-wrecker) who could fight Black Bolt to a draw, requiring a suicide shot from BB to end his threat (Oh, War of Dragonball Kings...). Nova Prime did things like rip an amped Annihilus inside out, obliterate a huge portion of an annihilation wave fleet, and make a credible-though-losing fight with the Silver Surfer, survive getting ripped through Galactus' planet-eater machine and solo Glads' cousin (using a weakness, to be sure, but it's still impressive as hell) and flat-out scare a cosmic-control-rod holding Blastarr with a threat. Kallark also has a bunch of feats for soloing starfleets and such by just ripping through them. He's proven stronger than Thor when they've fought.

Didn't Blackbolt beat Gladiator in 1-2 panel physical confrontation in that same arc or sometime before that during the whole Ronan thing prior to the Fault? Somewhere around there. Vulcan sounds impressive, but what durability feats does he actually have?
How much stronger than Thor?

Nova Prime sounds like he is stronger than Gladiator if he did all that...especially if he was actually able to physically hurt Surfer and tank his shots. That'd be star level strength and fire-power, which is well beyond just shattering a planet.

Soloing star-fleets... Firelord did that in Annihilation. That's more like a speed feat and mild power feat (demanding on the force-fields and maybe size). You can be well below a planet-buster to do that.

Captain Morgan
05-13-2014, 11:53 AM
It should also be noted that Vulcan's an energy guy. A staggeringly powerful one, but he's going to automatically be better again a guy channeling an electron blast at him than a guy punching him really hard.

Surtur
05-13-2014, 11:55 AM
Luke Cage just plain wonders what he is even doing here.

Captain Morgan
05-13-2014, 11:59 AM
Okay.



Didn't Blackbolt beat Gladiator in 1-2 panel physical confrontation in that same arc or sometime before that during the whole Ronan thing prior to the Fault? Somewhere around there. Vulcan sounds impressive, but what durability feats does he actually have?
How much stronger than Thor?

Nova Prime sounds like he is stronger than Gladiator if he did all that...especially if he was actually able to physically hurt Surfer.

Soloing star-fleets... Firelord did that in Annihilation. That's more like a speed feat and mild power feat (demanding on the force-fields and maybe size). You can be well below a planet-buster to do that is my point.

Nova is being overstated there. To isolate one thing, he really DIDN'T pose a credible fight to the Surfer. At all. And I vaguely recall some sort of context on the planet eating machine.

Gladiator has also did better than Beta Ray Bill in the fight against Tyrant, and to my understanding handled the Phoenix 5 waaaaay better than Thor did AvX. When the dude is on his A game, he's a monster.

Daenarys Stormborn
05-13-2014, 12:13 PM
Nova is being overstated there. To isolate one thing, he really DIDN'T pose a credible fight to the Surfer. At all. And I vaguely recall some sort of context on the planet eating machine.

Gladiator has also did better than Beta Ray Bill in the fight against Tyrant, and to my understanding handled the Phoenix 5 waaaaay better than Thor did AvX. When the dude is on his A game, he's a monster.

Okay. Sounds pretty legit. Don't think he's too much stronger (stronger but not embarrassingly so) than New 52 Superman's though.

Pendaran
05-13-2014, 12:17 PM
New 52 Clark benched the equivalent of a planet for an extended period, and has managed to have a few supporting performances since then to suggest that wasn't a one off, along with a concept of that his power had been increasing over time to get around not showing anything like that level of oomph previously. Gladiator wouldn't be beyond him as far as strength to any appreciable degree really.

big_adventure
05-13-2014, 12:20 PM
Nova is being overstated there. To isolate one thing, he really DIDN'T pose a credible fight to the Surfer. At all. And I vaguely recall some sort of context on the planet eating machine.

Gladiator has also did better than Beta Ray Bill in the fight against Tyrant, and to my understanding handled the Phoenix 5 waaaaay better than Thor did AvX. When the dude is on his A game, he's a monster.

To be fair to Nova, he a) didn't want to fight and b) had a totally paranoid World mind in his head ordering him to flee. He just would not give up until he saved the population. And it wasn't like he got bitchslapped or anything - he didn't win and knew he couldn't, but stood up, made the dude feel his shots, and took some of his without dying. For getting sucked through the planet eater, it didn't really do much to Rich, but it made World mind either sulky or catatonic for a little while.

And Gladiator was tougher than Bill against Tyrant, and, while he didn't do better per se against the P5 than Thor (both lost, Glads was worse off after, actually), he did fight more of them at once for his troubles than Thor did.

And as far as it goes, sure, speed-equal, Thor WOULD beat Gladiator, thanks to ddumping the guy. But Thor has that edge on 99% of characters, since those who can come back from dump are few and far between, and many who can would already be dead when faced against a solid class 100, high end energy projecting, flying brick with other esoterica (like absorption and such).

Captain Morgan
05-13-2014, 12:31 PM
To be fair to Nova, he a) didn't want to fight and b) had a totally paranoid World mind in his head ordering him to flee. He just would not give up until he saved the population. And it wasn't like he got bitchslapped or anything - he didn't win and knew he couldn't, but stood up, made the dude feel his shots, and took some of his without dying.

The big thing you are leaving out (And I am pretty sure I have pointed this out to you before) was that Surfer was holding back and putting on a show for Galactus-- which Surfer stated as soon as they were "out of earshot" of Galactus. Between that and how outmatched Ritchie and World Mind both knew they were, it makes the whole thing pretty useless as a feat.


And Gladiator was tougher than Bill against Tyrant, and, while he didn't do better per se against the P5 than Thor (both lost, Glads was worse off after, actually), he did fight more of them at once for his troubles than Thor did.

What I recall hearing was that Scott was stopping Mjonir swings with his pinkie, where he was more evenly matching eye beams with Gladiator. Where Thor was made into a joke by various combinations and single members of the P5. Feel free to provide scans if I am wrong here. I know Emma whooped that ass something fierce.

Surtur
05-13-2014, 12:32 PM
I hope Galactus bitch slapped the hell out of him for daring to even think he could "put on a show" for him.

Ite
05-13-2014, 12:35 PM
To be fair, Gladiator isn't really a hero and has almost never been the main character of anything, hence the whole "I don't have a ton of on-panel non-combat feats" thing.

He has the couple-of-punch-planet feat on panel. He has his son ruminating about what he can do easily, right after the P5 beat him down (holding a black hole in his hands, stuff like that) - it's off panel, but more-or-less in character for the guy. He's got on-panel stuff for swimming through the heart of a supermassive star.

As far as his combat feats - Vulcan was a legit team-wrecker (and fleet-wrecker) who could fight Black Bolt to a draw, requiring a suicide shot from BB to end his threat (Oh, War of Dragonball Kings...). Nova Prime did things like rip an amped Annihilus inside out, obliterate a huge portion of an annihilation wave fleet, and make a credible-though-losing fight with the Silver Surfer, survive getting ripped through Galactus' planet-eater machine and solo Glads' cousin (using a weakness, to be sure, but it's still impressive as hell) and flat-out scare a cosmic-control-rod holding Blastarr with a threat. Kallark also has a bunch of feats for soloing starfleets and such by just ripping through them. He's proven stronger than Thor when they've fought.

What comic did Glad fight Thor?

Surtur
05-13-2014, 12:43 PM
What comic did Glad fight Thor?

It's happened more then once. It more or less relied on Gladiator deciding to stop and pose during the fight for Thor to have a real chance. In other occasions I think Gladiator bad beaten Thor down and knocked the hammer away from him(or something) though I do not know the specific comics. I do know the "Gladiator decides to pose during a fight" happened years before the other instance I'm talking about. It more or less seems like he can overwhelm Thor with his speed and strength if he decides to remember it.

Pendaran
05-13-2014, 01:04 PM
What comic did Glad fight Thor?

The fight people are referring to as far as the one where Gladiator took him out was in Thor v2 34. It involved a Gladiator from the future, which before anyone notes, dude's centuries and centuries old as is, and that was still part of the main timeline at the time, before Thor would later pre empt that whole thing when it turned into the Reigning.

The Drunkard Kid
05-13-2014, 01:14 PM
I hope Galactus bitch slapped the hell out of him for daring to even think he could "put on a show" for him.

Are you kidding? Entertainment is pretty much the only reasonable justification of the entire Herald system. I mean, why else would one of the fundamental forces of the cosmos decide to have his presence announced by a mettalic hippie on a surfboard?

Little known fact: Silver Surfer is taking classes at a community college to help perfect a saucy puppet show for the next time he needs to keep Galavtus distracted.

Surtur
05-13-2014, 01:18 PM
Are you kidding? Entertainment is pretty much the only reasonable justification of the entire Herald system. I mean, why else would one of the fundamental forces of the cosmos decide to have his presence announced by a mettalic hippie on a surfboard?

Little known fact: Silver Surfer is taking classes at a community college to help perfect a saucy puppet show for the next time he needs to keep Galavtus distracted.

Yes, but when Galactus wants to be entertained he demands a no holes barred, non holding back extravaganza.

Anarchist
05-13-2014, 01:30 PM
And Gladiator was tougher than Bill against Tyrant, and, while he didn't do better per se against the P5 than Thor (both lost, Glads was worse off after, actually), he did fight more of them at once for his troubles than Thor did.

What I recall hearing was that Scott was stopping Mjonir swings with his pinkie, where he was more evenly matching eye beams with Gladiator. Where Thor was made into a joke by various combinations and single members of the P5. Feel free to provide scans if I am wrong here. I know Emma whooped that ass something fierce.
First Glads was only fighting P5-Cyclops, who didn't really want to fight and held back, struggling Eye-Beams with him while offering Gladiator to remain allies.
Glads however didn't wanna hear it and ended the Beam-Struggle by charging into him and punching him in the face.
After this the comic changes scenes and when it next cuts to the fight we see Emma and Scott calmly watching over Colossus and Namor beating Glads to a bloody pulp with no real seemingly effort.

Pendaran
05-13-2014, 01:41 PM
Little known fact: Silver Surfer is taking classes at a community college to help perfect a saucy puppet show for the next time he needs to keep Galavtus distracted.

This would have been the greatest episode of Community ever. Damnit NBC!

The Drunkard Kid
05-13-2014, 02:22 PM
Yes, but when Galactus wants to be entertained he demands a no holes barred, non holding back extravaganza.

No worries, it's a really saucy puppet show.

big_adventure
05-13-2014, 02:51 PM
Are you kidding? Entertainment is pretty much the only reasonable justification of the entire Herald system. I mean, why else would one of the fundamental forces of the cosmos decide to have his presence announced by a mettalic hippie on a surfboard?

Little known fact: Silver Surfer is taking classes at a community college to help perfect a saucy puppet show for the next time he needs to keep Galavtus distracted.

Is that the roman version of Galactus?

Surtur
05-13-2014, 02:58 PM
Is that the roman version of Galactus?

A Roman version that is also somehow a transformer.

abhilegend
05-13-2014, 11:22 PM
Gladiator isn't stronger than Thor. Masterson Thor was able to match him in strength and he himself said that Thor was as strong as himself.

http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsGladiator4.jpg

And then he says that Thor is as strong as himself. In the famous storyline where he moved at hyperspeed.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa469/R-O-O/Thor/ThorvsGladiator1.jpg
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa469/R-O-O/Thor/ThorvsGladiator2.jpg
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa469/R-O-O/Thor/ThorvsGladiator3.jpg
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa469/R-O-O/Thor/ThorvsGladiator4.jpg
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa469/R-O-O/Thor/ThorvsGladiator5.jpg

Destroying planet is good and all, but even people like Drax the Destroyer have destroyed planets, in one punch nonetheless. He was then beaten down by Captain Mar-Vell of all people and Thor decisively overpowered him.

Jonathan
05-13-2014, 11:33 PM
Hulk is a walking no-limits fallacy. In narrative, he's "the strongest one there is" and without any real limit. However, he is lacking in feats compared to a lot of the high-end types here - at least as long as one is smart enough to just flat-out ignore most of what we see in WWH.

I am not particularly sure that there is a bigger pile of PIS than WWH, and this makes feats for Hulk pretty tough to use. How valid is Hulk fighting Sentry when Sentry is literally forgetting all of his powers? How valid is the scenario when one of dozens of telekinetic-types or tech-types didn't fling the guy into space? WTF, Chuck - you're not going to trivially shut this guy down because reasons that don't seem nearly as important as deathdeathdeath???? Strange - you dimensional-portal-opening, intergalactic-teleporting dude you, you can't just drop him into the sun, or into a nice sleep dimension or something? Tony, you don't CHECK your ammo before assuming it's good? Reed, what, negative zone too crowded? Galactus-fighting suit at the cleaners? At least they had the good sense to keep Thor dead for the event. And all of that is just scratching the surface.

I haven't even read much of the World War Hulk stuff(I haven't been a regular comic collector since they disgraced the Avengers lineup by adding fan favorites like Wolverine to it for no real reason), I was just commenting on the basic concept of Hulk's madder/stronger angle.

abhilegend
05-13-2014, 11:42 PM
I mean, does this means classic Drax is stronger than Gladiator?

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14079680/captainmarvel_42_13.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14079690/CaptainMarvel_43_03.JPG.html

He destroyed two planets back to back.

Thor overpowered the same Drax BTW.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/ThorvsDraxIronManWaspCap4.jpg

Pendaran
05-14-2014, 01:31 AM
Gladiator isn't stronger than Thor. Masterson Thor was able to match him in strength and he himself said that Thor was as strong as himself.

Masterson Thor matched Gladiator in a fight where Gladiator did things like straight up stop fighting so that Thor could win, as far as the weight one could put behind that showing.

With that said, you've posted in rumbles at previous in the old forum, seen and commented on the rules and guidelines for evidence, and what have you. With that in mind, why do you seem to be trying to say that the lower showings of various characters, or certainly ones that couldn't especially be called cleanly depicted seem to outright negate their better ones? Certainly you'd be aware from previous comments that if a character, if, and this is the important bit to be sure, valid to their capacity, can do something like take out a planet, and then has that basically ignored in another fight, so that that fight can go, then why would that fight be of any note?

Beyond that, Classic, pre dumb Drax did things like a sidescatter planetary destruction fistfight with Thanos and rip out the heart of a star. Those feats would certainly be in Gladiator's scale, the star one even somewhat beyond. So the question then would not be, can you find some fights that don't take them into account remotely, as you could with any number of characters and their abilities, but instead something like, is that valid to the character as they and their powerset are conceptualized? Do they have some comparative handful of showings, that would make their feats thereby have more weight when they perform them? Are they by contrast say, a character with a near endless roll of decades of sequential showings to instead work something out of?

I'm curious though, where do you think post crisis Superman stands with all the guys listed? Who would he be stronger than? Would any of them be stronger than him? Anywhere as strong?

abhilegend
05-14-2014, 07:16 AM
Masterson Thor matched Gladiator in a fight where Gladiator did things like straight up stop fighting so that Thor could win, as far as the weight one could put behind that showing. That has nothing to do with the fact that Gladiator was matched by Thor in strength. The fact that Gladiator was shown as a cocky, overconfident idiot has nothing to do with it. In the same showing he nearly took off Wonder Man's head with a single punch.


With that said, you've posted in rumbles at previous in the old forum, seen and commented on the rules and guidelines for evidence, and what have you. Ah, yes. When I was banned from this forum for no reason whatsoever.
With that in mind, why do you seem to be trying to say that the lower showings of various characters, or certainly ones that couldn't especially be called cleanly depicted seem to outright negate their better ones? Who said they do? And why would Gladiator being matched by Thor be a low showing?
Certainly you'd be aware from previous comments that if a character, if, and this is the important bit to be sure, valid to their capacity, can do something like take out a planet, and then has that basically ignored in another fight, so that that fight can go, then why would that fight be of any note? That's funny. Gladiator was said to be able to destroy planets and yet got matched in strength by Hyperion. Would that be a low showing too?


Beyond that, Classic, pre dumb Drax did things like a sidescatter planetary destruction fistfight with Thanos and rip out the heart of a star. And got beaten up by Captain Mar-vell in the very same comic where he destroyed the planets and ripped out the core of the star.
Those feats would certainly be in Gladiator's scale, the star one even somewhat beyond. So the question then would not be, can you find some fights that don't take them into account remotely, as you could with any number of characters and their abilities, but instead something like, is that valid to the character as they and their powerset are conceptualized? You mean to say that the writer, Jim Starlin wrote Drax ripping out a star and forgot about the feat ten pages later in the same comic?
Do they have some comparative handful of showings, that would make their feats thereby have more weight when they perform them? Are they by contrast say, a character with a near endless roll of decades of sequential showings to instead work something out of? Gladiator has destroyed a planet one time. Drax has destroyed two planets solo and another with Thanos. Why would Gladiator's showing be more valid than Drax's?


I'm curious though, where do you think post crisis Superman stands with all the guys listed? Who would he be stronger than? Would any of them be stronger than him? Anywhere as strong?

Not falling in the same trap again. Suffice to say, Thor is as strong as Gladiator by his own admission.

Pendaran
05-14-2014, 07:38 AM
Not falling in the same trap again. Suffice to say, Thor is as strong as Gladiator by his own admission.

The premise of this thread is "rank in the order of pure strength". Post Crisis Superman is listed as one of the entrants in the list of. In what way is asking where Post Crisis Superman ranks on that list, a trap? Are you saying you have no clear opinions on where post crisis Superman falls on that list?


That has nothing to do with the fact that Gladiator was matched by Thor in strength. The fact that Gladiator was shown as a cocky, overconfident idiot has nothing to do with it. In the same showing he nearly took off Wonder Man's head with a single punch.

That you think that a showing where Thor ended up on his ass, and could only recover because Gladiator straight up stopped fighting, and the Living Lightning was conveniently nearby to be channeled into him, and doing so staggered Gladiator enough to start wailing on him, is a clean showing for the characters involved, is interesting.


Who said they do? And why would Gladiator being matched by Thor be a low showing?

When he has better strength, speed and durability showings than Thor, and supplements them by doing something like, say, knocking Thor out, or otherwise entirely outperforming Beta Ray Bill in the same fight, against the same guy, that would make them a low showing.


That's funny. Gladiator was said to be able to destroy planets and yet got matched in strength by Hyperion. Would that be a low showing too?

This would be the fight where Gladiator both snapped Hyperion's neck, and before that blunted the guy's punch with all of his open palm. Where Hyperion had to be noted as having strength on a scale of sundering planets when grappling with him, as part of that grapple, ontop of that, and given some brief psionic explination to his strength to be akin to Gladiator's. So no, that one's fine.


And got beaten up by Captain Mar-vell in the very same comic where he destroyed the planets and ripped out the core of the star.

The very same writers who have the Flash do some insane speed thing, will then have him get hit by a speedless rogue within the same comic. Is there a reason you are advocating for PIS on Rumbles if you are previously familiar with the board?




You mean to say that the writer, Jim Starlin wrote Drax ripping out a star and forgot about the feat ten pages later in the same comic?

Again, no PIS on Rumbles.


Gladiator has destroyed a planet one time. Drax has destroyed two planets solo and another with Thanos. Why would Gladiator's showing be more valid than Drax's?

Why would Drax's showing be any less valid? So far the only reason you can say against it is that you're trying to say PIS is on for both Drax and Gladiator to discount their showings. Even beyond that, that their low showings make their better ones apparently not exist.

Now, once again, this thread is in part about where post crisis Superman ranks in strength with regards many other characters. Are you claiming you have no concrete opinion on that? On Gladiator's strength or that of Drax as connected? Is there a reason you would post on a thread about a particular topic, then refuse to answer questions about that topic?


Ah, yes. When I was banned from this forum for no reason whatsoever.

This doesn't really make sense as a response to a comment that you seem to be basically ignoring evidence weighting guidelines that you'd been previously aware of. Moderated debate board, yeah? If you dislike its moderation, if you dislike its standards, if you don't want to have to answer questions when put to you, on what is a debate thread, about the topic of that thread, why specifically make an account to post on that board?

Ite
05-14-2014, 01:30 PM
The fight people are referring to as far as the one where Gladiator took him out was in Thor v2 34. It involved a Gladiator from the future, which before anyone notes, dude's centuries and centuries old as is, and that was still part of the main timeline at the time, before Thor would later pre empt that whole thing when it turned into the Reigning.

Thanks man.

The Drunkard Kid
05-14-2014, 02:46 PM
Is that the roman version of Galactus?

Really saucy puppet shows.


A Roman version that is also somehow a transformer.

Hey, after the Celestials got all Voltron on him, he had to up his game a bit.

The Drunkard Kid
05-14-2014, 02:52 PM
Also, I always placed Classic Drax above Gladiator, what with him being a dead match for Thanos even before the Thanos-Kryptonite effect took place and comparing Gladiator's 3-hit planet busting vs. Drax and Thanos blowing up a planet from the backlash of punching each other.

Also, regarding Thor vs. Drax: Classic Drax was normally more or less even with Thanos physically, from my understanding, whereas Thor had to use the Power Gem and a berserker rage to be able to match Thanos that way.

Surtur
05-14-2014, 03:00 PM
Thor is as strong as Gladiator by his own admission.

Don't actions speak louder then words?

Pendaran
05-14-2014, 03:29 PM
Also, I always placed Classic Drax above Gladiator, what with him being a dead match for Thanos even before the Thanos-Kryptonite effect took place and comparing Gladiator's 3-hit planet busting vs. Drax and Thanos blowing up a planet from the backlash of punching each other.

Also, regarding Thor vs. Drax: Classic Drax was normally more or less even with Thanos physically, from my understanding, whereas Thor had to use the Power Gem and a berserker rage to be able to match Thanos that way.

The star ripping thing is what particularly puts Classic Drax ahead. It's worth noting though, Drax lost that fight with Thanos, he wasn't /that/ even. It was just that in losing, kaboom! It was also the sidescatter of their fight in the main.

Daenarys Stormborn
05-14-2014, 05:04 PM
Nova is being overstated there. To isolate one thing, he really DIDN'T pose a credible fight to the Surfer. At all. And I vaguely recall some sort of context on the planet eating machine.

Gladiator has also did better than Beta Ray Bill in the fight against Tyrant, and to my understanding handled the Phoenix 5 waaaaay better than Thor did AvX. When the dude is on his A game, he's a monster.


To be fair to Nova, he a) didn't want to fight and b) had a totally paranoid World mind in his head ordering him to flee. He just would not give up until he saved the population. And it wasn't like he got bitchslapped or anything - he didn't win and knew he couldn't, but stood up, made the dude feel his shots, and took some of his without dying. For getting sucked through the planet eater, it didn't really do much to Rich, but it made World mind either sulky or catatonic for a little while.

And Gladiator was tougher than Bill against Tyrant, and, while he didn't do better per se against the P5 than Thor (both lost, Glads was worse off after, actually), he did fight more of them at once for his troubles than Thor did.

And as far as it goes, sure, speed-equal, Thor WOULD beat Gladiator, thanks to ddumping the guy. But Thor has that edge on 99% of characters, since those who can come back from dump are few and far between, and many who can would already be dead when faced against a solid class 100, high end energy projecting, flying brick with other esoterica (like absorption and such).

I actually looked up gladiator vs tyrant. Not sure it showed me all the scans, but from the few I saw it was just a testament to his durability without anything clearly showing he was stronger than Bill or anyone else there. Assuming that is correct and depending on how durable/strong Nova Prime is supposed to be, I would either rescind what I said earlier, stick to it, or go a step further. So I'd conclude 1) Glad is just stronger than Thor but shy of clear planet buster b) Glad is a planet buster or C) if we play fast and lose and consider a mostly durability feat but that is sort of technically strength a kind of soft proof of his strength + the fantasy black hole thing big noted, than he is star strength type.

In any case, my list would look like this...

weakest to strongest
Cage
Rhino
Thing
Namor (Underwater)
Juggernaut ?
Hulk (Strongest Version). Post-Crisis Martian Manhunter
Post-Crisis Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman
Post-Crisis Superman /Thor
Doomsday.
Gladiator
Thanos
Sentry
Hulk Unknown Potential as Strongest there will ever be but has yet to be reached;)

Sentry is he highest because of that Cosmic Cube in hands feat. Or if that's more durability than strength I'd put him below Thanos.

Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh
05-14-2014, 05:14 PM
Don't actions speak louder then words?

Even Cthulhu, die hard of the Thor fans, cannot back the statement put forward by the one with the weird name.

Seriously though ... Gladiator has punked Thor, and has the feats to back up being able to punk Thor.

They don't have the same strength regardless of what the guy says.. otherwise, the Ten-Eyed Man is the most dangerous man on DC Earth.

The Drunkard Kid
05-14-2014, 07:52 PM
otherwise, the Ten-Eyed Man is the most dangerous man on DC Earth.

As opposed to the entire DC omniverse, as is clearly the case.

Anarchist
05-15-2014, 11:35 AM
About Juggernaut:
I know he is pretty strong, but isn't he one of the cases of Durability being hilariously higher than his strength?
I think his near-invulnerability to physical attacks and his unstoppable momentum is what places him above people like Hulk, not his strength alone.

Slade1
05-15-2014, 11:55 AM
About Juggernaut:
I know he is pretty strong, but isn't he one of the cases of Durability being hilariously higher than his strength?
I think his near-invulnerability to physical attacks and his unstoppable momentum is what places him above people like Hulk, not his strength alone.

Yes his durability is crazy high but he's also a solid class 100 brick.

Surtur
05-15-2014, 01:01 PM
About Juggernaut:
I know he is pretty strong, but isn't he one of the cases of Durability being hilariously higher than his strength?
I think his near-invulnerability to physical attacks and his unstoppable momentum is what places him above people like Hulk, not his strength alone.

What places him above the Hulk is actually his outfit.