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Kensei
04-26-2015, 01:05 AM
Two of my favorite non-mainstream superhero/antiheroes, Rorschach of "Watchmen" and V of "V for Vendetta" (movie versions), square off against each other. Each are equipped with every tool and weapon we saw them use in their respective stories. Personally I think they would be pretty evenly matched and I'm interested in which one everyone sees coming out on top.

Oh, and what a coincidence- both are creations of Alan Moore.

Anarchist
04-26-2015, 01:57 AM
Movie-Rorschach was awesome, but Movie-V is just too fast (endsequence, where he kills about a dozen guards before they can even react/reload, and that after being SHOT several times) and skilled with his knifes.

StupidMoniker
04-26-2015, 01:59 AM
Movie V is MUCH faster than Rorshach. V puts several knives into him before Rorshach can mount much of an attack.

Sharpandpointies
04-26-2015, 03:12 PM
Agreed - based on what I saw in both movies, Movie-V murders Rorshach.

Postmania
04-26-2015, 03:13 PM
Ozymandius would be a better fight.

master of read
04-26-2015, 03:29 PM
movie V is a beast and rorschach is out of his depth with him.

Jonathan
04-26-2015, 05:28 PM
Cool as Rorschach was, he was basicly a really smart and skilled peak human. V was just as smart and skilled, but clearly superhuman. V showed superior feats of both endurance and speed, especially when he endured multiple gun shots and then take down a group of armed men in short order.

Kensei
04-26-2015, 07:13 PM
Good responses, I think I agree that Rorschach would probably fall to V's blades. However in an unarmed fight I think they might be much more closely matched. I have to disagree that V is superhuman. I feel that he and Rorschach would both fall under the category of peak human and that the only thing truly unique about V was that something in his blood made him immune to the bio weapon the government was testing on prisoners. He survived a firery explosion (which in the comic you learn he caused himself and did not expect to survive it) but was horribly burned by it, and he absorbed all those bullets in his final fight not because he was a meta but because he was wearing body armor. A few rounds got through (well, probably several), and he immediately began to bleed to death but finished the fight while he still had the stength. Rorschach, meanwhile, had a similar feat (though I know not nearly as impressive) when he fought and escaped the SWAT team in the hallway/stairwell. Only after he was weakened by his leap out the window were the cops outside able to pile on and subdue him.

Totoro Man
04-26-2015, 09:01 PM
Ozymandius would be a better fight.

Ozymandias would be a better match-- but V would still take a solid majority IMO. his durability, speed, and standard equipment give him advantages that Ozy can't easily overcome. Ozy would at least make V work for it.

Postmania
04-26-2015, 09:41 PM
Good responses, I think I agree that Rorschach would probably fall to V's blades. However in an unarmed fight I think they might be much more closely matched. I have to disagree that V is superhuman. I feel that he and Rorschach would both fall under the category of peak human and that the only thing truly unique about V was that something in his blood made him immune to the bio weapon the government was testing on prisoners. He survived a firery explosion (which in the comic you learn he caused himself and did not expect to survive it) but was horribly burned by it, and he absorbed all those bullets in his final fight not because he was a meta but because he was wearing body armor. A few rounds got through (well, probably several), and he immediately began to bleed to death but finished the fight while he still had the stength. Rorschach, meanwhile, had a similar feat (though I know not nearly as impressive) when he fought and escaped the SWAT team in the hallway/stairwell. Only after he was weakened by his leap out the window were the cops outside able to pile on and subdue him.

The armor didn't stop any of the bullets. They all got through, though at slower speed. That is way beyond anything Rors has shown.

Jonathan
04-26-2015, 09:53 PM
Ozymandias would be a better match-- but V would still take a solid majority IMO. his durability, speed, and standard equipment give him advantages that Ozy can't easily overcome. Ozy would at least make V work for it.

Yeah I agree. Speed is debatable and MAY favor Ozy, but its close, and strength and toughness decisively favor V.

Kensei
04-26-2015, 11:31 PM
Forgot to add something about Rorschach's toughness, and that has to do with Ozymandias. Rorschach went into the confrontation with him thinking "He might be too much even for me," confident that he knew he could beat just about anybody else. And when they were fighting, Rorschach got flung several yards through the air a couple of times and crashed into things with impact that would have crippled any ordinary man, but he got back up and kept fighting. (After retrieving his hat, of course.) So even if V could outfight him I think he would work up quite a sweat doing it.

Anarchist
04-27-2015, 08:50 AM
So even if V could outfight him I think he would work up quite a sweat doing it.
H2H, maybe.

Knife between the eyes? Not so much.

Postmania
04-27-2015, 08:53 AM
Forgot to add something about Rorschach's toughness, and that has to do with Ozymandias. Rorschach went into the confrontation with him thinking "He might be too much even for me," confident that he knew he could beat just about anybody else. And when they were fighting, Rorschach got flung several yards through the air a couple of times and crashed into things with impact that would have crippled any ordinary man, but he got back up and kept fighting. (After retrieving his hat, of course.) So even if V could outfight him I think he would work up quite a sweat doing it.

Perhaps, but it would be "this is a stronger training bag than I'm used to." Which is not to say that R is a training bag because V will have to evade him, but most of the difficulty will be in beating him down, less so avoiding or countering his attacks

Sharpandpointies
04-27-2015, 09:25 AM
Cool as Rorschach was, he was basicly a really smart and skilled peak human. V was just as smart and skilled, but clearly superhuman. V showed superior feats of both endurance and speed, especially when he endured multiple gun shots and then take down a group of armed men in short order.

When did Movie-Rorschach show ANYTHING on the level of a 'peak human'? I mean, what are we talking about here - comic book peak human? No way.


Good responses, I think I agree that Rorschach would probably fall to V's blades. However in an unarmed fight I think they might be much more closely matched. I have to disagree that V is superhuman. I feel that he and Rorschach would both fall under the category of peak human and that the only thing truly unique about V was that something in his blood made him immune to the bio weapon the government was testing on prisoners. He survived a firery explosion (which in the comic you learn he caused himself and did not expect to survive it) but was horribly burned by it, and he absorbed all those bullets in his final fight not because he was a meta but because he was wearing body armor. A few rounds got through (well, probably several), and he immediately began to bleed to death but finished the fight while he still had the stength. Rorschach, meanwhile, had a similar feat (though I know not nearly as impressive) when he fought and escaped the SWAT team in the hallway/stairwell. Only after he was weakened by his leap out the window were the cops outside able to pile on and subdue him.

Given that V's speedfeat at the end after he'd been shot was hugely above anything I've seen from Rorschach in the movie...

...given that V was throwing knives with such force that their impacts were literally lifting people off the ground and sending them into the air....

...given his armor was full of holes and his body had been penetrated by multiple bullets at the time he was carrying out these above-Rorschach feats...

...given in this fight he wouldn't be injured to start with...

...I'm having serious problems seeing Rorschach be any more than this:


"this is a stronger training bag than I'm used to."

Agreed. He's fast enough to pound the heck out of Movie Rorschach, and strong enough to hurt him.

Also, would it be possible to cease using the phrase Peak Human as some kind of benchmark for either of these guys? Neither of them showed Comic Book Peak Human anything (except maybe V for speed), and if it's not comic book peak human, what is it?

And saying they're both peak human when V's speed is rather above anything Rorschach showed, that's more than a little confusing.

Feats are what we use for comparing, and these guys have different feats.

Kensei
04-27-2015, 10:52 AM
This might be a trivial point or it might not but I'm not sure I agree that every single bullet penetrated V's armor. Yes it was shown to be full of holes but it wasn't clear whether they all went all the way through or not. (Think Pepper Potts first seeing Tony Stark when he got back from his first Iron Man mission- "Are those bullet holes?") The very fact of showing V remove the armor and then showing a closeup of it on the floor seems to me to be for the sole purpose of saying "This is why he's still alive." Saying that it only slowed the bullets down doesn't mean much- they either penetrated or they didn't, and if they did then the speed at which they did doesn't matter, they are in him and damaging him. If every bullet penetrated then I think it makes V's feat cease to be impressive and become just silly. He'd have to be superhuman, in which case he wouldn't need the armor in the first place.

There were also bullet impacts shown on V's mask afterward, which I don't think means it was literally bulletproof (though he used it to smash a mirror without damaging it) but the curves and contours of it were able to turn a bullet and make it glance off.

Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh
04-27-2015, 10:58 AM
This might be a trivial point or it might not but I'm not sure I agree that every single bullet penetrated V's armor. Yes it was shown to be full of holes but it wasn't clear whether they all went all the way through or not. (Think Pepper Potts first seeing Tony Stark when he got back from his first Iron Man mission- "Are those bullet holes?") The very fact of showing V remove the armor and then showing a closeup of it on the floor seems to me to be for the sole purpose of saying "This is why he's still alive." Saying that it only slowed the bullets down doesn't mean much- they either penetrated or they didn't, and if they did then the speed at which they did doesn't matter, they are in him and damaging him. If every bullet penetrated then I think it makes V's feat cease to be impressive and become just silly. He'd have to be superhuman, in which case he wouldn't need the armor in the first place.

There were also bullet impacts shown on V's mask afterward, which I don't think means it was literally bulletproof (though he used it to smash a mirror without damaging it) but the curves and contours of it were able to turn a bullet and make it glance off.

Given that he eventually bled to death from his injuries, I think it's safe to assume none of what you just said makes sense.

Sharpandpointies
04-27-2015, 11:04 AM
This might be a trivial point or it might not but I'm not sure I agree that every single bullet penetrated V's armor. Yes it was shown to be full of holes but it wasn't clear whether they all went all the way through or not. (Think Pepper Potts first seeing Tony Stark when he got back from his first Iron Man mission- "Are those bullet holes?") The very fact of showing V remove the armor and then showing a closeup of it on the floor seems to me to be for the sole purpose of saying "This is why he's still alive." Saying that it only slowed the bullets down doesn't mean much- they either penetrated or they didn't, and if they did then the speed at which they did doesn't matter, they are in him and damaging him. If every bullet penetrated then I think it makes V's feat cease to be impressive and become just silly. He'd have to be superhuman, in which case he wouldn't need the armor in the first place.

I very much doubt every bullet penetrated as well. Likely only a few got through the armor before the last set from the .357.

Still, there were blood sprays during the bullet-barrage and certainly he isn't shown to be wearing a ton of steel on his arms and legs...so the dude was shot multiple times.

Also, superhuman? He'd need to be to be capable of pulling off the stuff he does with the knives. So him blunting some of the damage with the armor - enough to keep going - works just fine for me. Mileage may vary.

Kensei
04-27-2015, 11:07 AM
Given that he eventually bled to death from his injuries, I think it's safe to assume none of what you just said makes sense.

I'm not saying the armor stopped them all. You can bleed to death from one bullet, and he was clearly hit by several. But if they'd all gotten through he would have died on the spot.

Postmania
04-27-2015, 11:13 AM
I very much doubt every bullet penetrated as well. Likely only a few got through the armor before the last set from the .357.

Still, there were blood sprays during the bullet-barrage and certainly he isn't shown to be wearing a ton of steel on his arms and legs...so the dude was shot multiple times.

Suppose that makes sense. Either way, he could have had better, but I guess he wasn't planning on getting shot in the first place.

Sharpandpointies
04-27-2015, 11:48 AM
Dude ate punishment beyond what a normal human being could eat and still fully blitzed all those guys, throwing daggers that propelled people off their feet and made them slide across the floor, and casually slashing through bullet-proof vests and the ribcages below them - again, with daggers..

It's one hell of a feat, well into the 'utterly impossible for a normal human being' area. And past anything I saw movie-Rorschach carry out.

Jonathan
04-27-2015, 08:02 PM
As to what amounts to superhuman, I'd say if its impossible for more than one in a million real life people throughout human history, its superhuman. Yes, that means that I believe that some feats of real life humans are extraordinary enough to be considered superhuman, at least in a sense.