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Jcogginsa
04-30-2014, 08:25 PM
Goku, before he got Super Sayian God, takes on Gotenks.

note, assume that Gotenks will not defuse after 30 minutes

Guy1
04-30-2014, 08:39 PM
Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sobFjjR4Qkc)

The Drunkard Kid
04-30-2014, 09:29 PM
Gotenks should be stronger, but he's also a lot dumber and may well leave an opening that Goku can capitalize on.

Cleric of Hell's Brigade
04-30-2014, 09:31 PM
To be honest, post Buu I doubt Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Or if he is, it isn't enough that Goku's far better tactics and skill won't allow him to win.

BitVyper
04-30-2014, 10:15 PM
Removing the time limit makes this a hard sell for Goku. He's a far better fighter, but SS3 eats his power so fast, whereas, IIRC, it ate through Gotenks' power by reducing his time limit. That said, Gotenks isn't going to anticipate the kind of tricks Goku likes to pull, and the ghost attack is basically useless here because Goku is aware of it and able to teleport. I'd say teleportation and experience/skill win this for Goku, but if Gotenks can manage to survive for a bit, he will probably win at attrition.

Cleric of Hell's Brigade
05-01-2014, 06:38 AM
Wasn't Goku's SSH3 time limit only because he wasn't technically alive, and would thus burn through his day of life quicker?

BitVyper
05-01-2014, 07:00 AM
Wasn't Goku's SSH3 time limit only because he wasn't technically alive, and would thus burn through his day of life quicker?

Nah, being alive actually made his power run out faster during the fight with Kid Buu.

Eli.C
05-01-2014, 07:34 AM
I kinda liked that SSJ3 was just a thing that they could never master. Goku had a better time as a SSJ4 than he ever did trying to get a handle on all that hair.

As for this fight, I can't see Gotenks taking it. Statements being what they are (not stand-ins for actual feats), Goku felt quite confident that he could take down Super Buuculo by himself, and as I recall Super Buu/Gotenks was pretty much an even split that tilted Buu's way because he didn't have to stop fighting every 30 minutes.

Hazard
05-01-2014, 08:12 AM
If there is no fusion time limit the only problem is the SSJ3 time limit.

Gotenks could only hold it for 5 minutes and I'm not sure how long Goku could do it.

At any rate, Gotenks has probably more power to spare.

Goku is a much better fighter than Gotenks, which is not really helped by Gotenks not being all the competent with his powers to begin with.

As noted by Vegeto the Super Ghost Kamikaze attack and other techniques are really that good all things considered.

The MunchKING
05-01-2014, 08:48 AM
Goku, before he got Super Sayian God, takes on Gotenks.


SO does that mean he does have Super Sayin 4?

Hazard
05-01-2014, 08:57 AM
SO does that mean he does have Super Sayin 4?

Nah, GT isn't canon. Pre SSJG would be beginning of Battle of Gods Goku.

Enterprise E
05-01-2014, 09:27 AM
From what I've seen of the two, I'd say that Goku takes it with difficulty. The time limit really hurts him but he's a lot smarter than Gotenks and he may even be able to cause the Super Ghost Kamikaze to "accidentally" hit Gotenks instead, or at least set up Gotenks to be hit by another technique especially since Gotenks is so arrogant. Goku's ability to see analyze an attack and find a weakness to it will come in handy, as will several of his own techniques like Solar Flare, assuming we're giving him the techniques from DBZ filler episodes.

Eli.C
05-01-2014, 02:05 PM
Solar Flare is canon. Dates back to DB.

The MunchKING
05-01-2014, 02:36 PM
Yeah he "borrowed" it from Tein during their first fight.

master of read
05-01-2014, 03:42 PM
Yeah he "borrowed" it from Tein during their first fight.

pretty much everyone "borrowed" it from tien.

as for the fight, while gotenks is stronger, he's still a idiot. goku, knowing full well that they are on a time limit, (not sure if he knew going SSJ3 burns the time down big time so i wont say), he will stall them out and pull out all kinds of shit that the kid wouldnt be prepared for. goku will take this one but not easily.

zeroharpuia
05-01-2014, 03:46 PM
I think that Goku's tactics and battle experience will let him pull through on this one.

Saitou Hajime
05-02-2014, 06:55 PM
Gotenks has an overwhelming power advantage, more than enough to offset any skill, experience, or mental advantage Goku might have over him. And that's without taking away the time limit on the form, which is just plain overkill.

Hiromi
05-02-2014, 09:21 PM
Why are we assuming that sans the Fusion timer Gotenks wouldn't have the exact same energy consumption problem as Goku? Especially considering that the energy consumption thing was the whole reason why the Fusion timer was shortened to begin with? Without the time limit it's perfectly within reason to assume Gotenks would revert out of SSJ3 just like Goku would. I also don't really see how Gotenks can be considered stronger than SS3 Goku, especially considering that Goku in SSJ3 was able to not get completely pasted by Buutenks, and he outright stared down and intimidated Buu after the fusion timer ran out, and THAT Buu was still flat out stronger than the one Gotenks fought considering he had both the kids unfused power and Piccolo's fighting skill added on top to what he had been when fighting Gotenks.

Hazard
05-02-2014, 09:41 PM
Yeah, Gotenks is running on a timer regarding SSJ3. He only has 5 minutes.

Regarding power.

Gotenks as a SSJ1 fought against Super Buu. That's where most people get the idea he is superior as a SSJ3 to Goku's SSJ3.

Thing is, Buu was playing around there. Gotenks managed to get lucky with the Super Ghost Kamikaze attack, but by the end Buu was literally reading comic books and eating sweets mid fight.

SSJ2 Vegeta had a much better performance against Fat Buu to be honest.

Now, SSJ3 Gotenks fought well against Super Buu. The problem there is that Super Buu was holding back because he was planning to absorb them later.

Meanwhile Goku was the one who was holding back against Fat Buu.

Then there's the part where Gotenks is recognized as not that good a fighter in canon, despite his power.

Cujo
05-03-2014, 12:15 AM
Goku wins because without Goku making Gohan, Gotenks would not exist.

*Flips on shades.*

Yeaaah.

The Drunkard Kid
05-03-2014, 04:37 AM
SSJ3 Gotenks is considered stronger than SSJ3 Goku because he was able to hold his own against Super Buu, and arguably even overpower him a tad (too bad about the regen), while Goku's reaction to Buutenks was to go SSJ3 and brace himself with a panicked look on his face for the split second before Gotenks' Fusion wore of and reduced him to a confused Super Buu + Piccolo + Goten + Trunks, who Goku "intimidated" by saying that Gohan no longer needed to fuse with Goku in order to beat him, which was his only real plan for dealing with Buutenks in an actual fight scenario.

And Buu wasn't planning on absorbing Gotenks at that point, because he was not capable of planning at the start of the fight. Dude could barely wait a few minutes for Gotenks to stay fighting and was getting royally pissed about SSJ3 Gotenks managing to press him so much. Buu could sense that someone in the afterlife was getting really powerful, but he didn't plan on absorbing Gotenks until he found out that Gohan had actually managed to surpass him by such a huge margin, which caught him completely off guard.

Anarchist
05-03-2014, 04:49 AM
SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu
SSJ3 Goku < Kid Buu

That all that needs to be said.
Gotenks wins.

Saitou Hajime
05-03-2014, 07:18 AM
SSJ3 Gotenks is considered stronger than SSJ3 Goku because he was able to hold his own against Super Buu, and arguably even overpower him a tad (too bad about the regen)

The same Super Buu who Goku claimed was too strong for him and didn't want to fight without fusion.

Hazard
05-03-2014, 07:22 AM
And Buu wasn't planning on absorbing Gotenks at that point, because he was not capable of planning at the start of the fight. Dude could barely wait a few minutes for Gotenks to stay fighting and was getting royally pissed about SSJ3 Gotenks managing to press him so much. Buu could sense that someone in the afterlife was getting really powerful, but he didn't plan on absorbing Gotenks until he found out that Gohan had actually managed to surpass him by such a huge margin, which caught him completely off guard.

He was planning to absorb him since after Gotenks knocking him out of Kami's Lookout. Good showing for Gotenks but he would have lost had Buu not been waiting for the timer to run out.

Hiromi
05-03-2014, 08:32 AM
here's the whole Buu/Goku scene, also you can laugh at Gohan's baseball skill


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCz1afSgm8M

penguin-in-leather-jacket
05-03-2014, 08:33 AM
the buu saga (as a whole and nearly all individual pieces) stank. that's all that needs to be said.

seriously, i rate it worse than the Garlic Jr filler because at least the Garlic Jr filler was short. nine or ten episodes vs however many the buu saga took.

UFT
05-16-2014, 02:28 AM
post Buu I doubt Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku
base gotenks post rosat was above goku. its speculative only that goku closed the gap in only ten years



as for the fight, while gotenks is stronger, he's still a idiot. goku, knowing full well that they are on a time limit, (not sure if he knew going SSJ3 burns the time down big time so i wont say), he will stall them out and pull out all kinds of shit that the kid wouldnt be prepared for
theres no reason that a vegeta-trained trunks would be all that surprised by anything. buu has far more tricks than goku, and equal battle intelligence, and gotenks was still pummeling him. in dbz skill matters little.plus you dont think goku won't be caught off guard by the kids own tricks?



Goku is a much better fighter than Gotenks, which is not really helped by Gotenks not being all the competent with his powers to begin with.
he was good enough to beat the snot out of buu


tatements being what they are (not stand-ins for actual feats), Goku felt quite confident that he could take down Super Buuculo by himself,
when? all he siad was "gohan can take you out now"


I recall Super Buu/Gotenks was pretty much an even split that tilted Buu's way because he didn't have to stop fighting every 30 minutes.
gotenks was going to kill buu till he ran out of time. in a serious fight with no messing about, gotenks would have turned him to ash repeatedly


, especially considering that Goku in SSJ3 was able to not get completely pasted by Buutenks,
non canon filler



the buu saga (as a whole and nearly all individual pieces) stank.
irrelevant waste of a post



SSJ2 Vegeta had a much better performance against Fat Buu to be honest.
theres a truly gigantic gap and difference between that buu and super buu


SSJ3 Goku < Kid Buu
debatable. dead ssj3 could probably charge up a sufficient blast immediately

BitVyper
05-16-2014, 12:27 PM
SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu
SSJ3 Goku < Kid Buu


Neither of these is true. Gotenks was roughly equal to base form Super Buu, maybe slightly higher in terms of sheer power output, but without the staying power to overcome Buu's regen with his minor advantage. Goku was pointedly putting on a show for Vegeta's sake instead of taking his fight with Kid Buu seriously, and (before running himself dry by accident due to his not knowing the difference being alive had on him) had more than enough power to actually destroy him.

It's unknown exactly how base super Buu and Kid Buu relate to each other in power terms, because we know the absorbed Kais held Buu back somewhat, and they definitely seemed to have hindered his regeneration a bit (where Kid Buu is practically formless). Super Buu was definitely more powerful than fat Buu by at least a slim margin, but then so was Kid Buu. And like DK's post suggested, Goku didn't really consider Super Buu + Piccolo much of a threat.

Anyway, I think at SS3, Gotenks and Goku are probably both around the same level, or close enough that any difference will be relatively minor. However, Goku is by far the better fighter, and has a good track record for pulling tricky shit in fights. Throw in teleportation, which Goku is very adept at using to mess with his opponents, and Gotenks probably can't hit him with anything meaningful.

Anarchist
05-16-2014, 12:35 PM
Neither of these is true. Gotenks was roughly equal to base form Super Buu, maybe slightly higher in terms of sheer power output, but without the staying power to overcome Buu's regen with his minor advantage.
Which is why he was about to deliver the finishing blow when convieniently his Fusion ended, I suppose?
Gotenks just screwed around too much. If he had gone SSj3 right from the start and stopped fooling around, he would have won.


And like DK's post suggested, Goku didn't really consider Super Buu + Piccolo much of a threat.
That is no proof at all.
Goku is not very known for analyzing a situation brightly.

abmccray
05-16-2014, 12:46 PM
Goku specifically didn't consider Buucolo a threat for GOHAN (who dwarfed Goku in power at that point).

- Goku thought he could beat Fat Buu (never saw or sensed angry Fat Buu, who jumps up in power, only the silly, happy version)
- Goku thought he could beat Kid Buu but wasted too much power and didn't understand SSJ3 in his human form
- Goku was scared of fighting Super Buu and said he and Vegeta had no chance

Super Buu is really just Fat Buu "unleashed" because the evil side takes over. Kid Buu loses the power jump of the fused Buus, but gains the pure evil "will do anything to win at any time" which makes him more dangerous.

Basically:

Buuhan > Buutenks > Buccolo > Super Buu > Angry Fat Buu >> Fat Buu = Kid Buu > Mr. Buu > Uub.

Meaning:

Gohan > Gotenks >> Goku

However, Gotenks suffers from CIS.