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Cody
06-01-2014, 12:47 PM
Good ole Will Smith Superhero vs Movie Superman. Who wins?

butterfingers158
06-01-2014, 12:51 PM
Hancock, and it isn't really even that close

Cody
06-01-2014, 12:53 PM
Hancock, and it isn't really even that close

How big is the gap between them when it comes to speed, strength and durability? And what feats make Hancock that much better?

Anarchist
06-01-2014, 01:08 PM
Well, wasn't Hancock basically invulnerable unless he was near his goddess-companion (whatever)?

Cody
06-01-2014, 01:18 PM
Well, wasn't Hancock basically invulnerable unless he was near his goddess-companion (whatever)?

Doesn't really protect him from being koed. He can't die, but he can be koed.

I don't remember any significant speed feats for him to be faster than Supes. Nor do I see a big strength gap. Hancock DID no sell a speed train like it was wind but aside from that, is he faster and stronger than Supes? If so what has he done that makes it so?

AdvanceBushido
06-01-2014, 01:26 PM
I think it's a tie. Oncw the sequels come out then we will know for sure.

Cody
06-01-2014, 01:28 PM
I think it's a tie. Oncw the sequels come out then we will know for sure.

Well this isn't about them, this is about current Mos vs Hancock :/.

AdvanceBushido
06-01-2014, 01:50 PM
Well this isn't about them, this is about current Mos vs Hancock :/.

I know. :) But it is just so hard for me to come to a decision. For ever feat that Superman has Hancock has one too.

Bluekey
06-01-2014, 02:14 PM
Supes got hit with a train and it took him out for over 10 seconds. Hancock got hit with a train and......it was like he didn't notice.

big_adventure
06-01-2014, 02:15 PM
What? Hancock flat-out no-sells a speeding train while drunk. Hancock casually, again while drunk, throws a grey whale a couple of miles. Superman... does nothing close to any of that. Hancock also shows some superspeed throughout the bank scene, and his psycho ex, who seems to have a similar powerset + Storm (for, um, reasons?), shows pretty explicit speed as well. MoS Supes shows literally no better than normal-ish human reactions.

big_adventure
06-01-2014, 02:17 PM
Supes got hit with a train and it took him out for over 10 seconds. Hancock got hit with a train and......it was like he didn't notice.

A step further - Clark's takeout was longer than that, first, and second, all it was was one locomotive. Hancock flat out doesn't get moved getting hit by a loaded freight train.

Cody
06-01-2014, 02:28 PM
Alright what about Hancock vs Supes from Superman Returns? Considering it's the same Superman from the original Superman movies he has a lot more feats going for him. How would THAT fight go?

Neoprime
06-01-2014, 02:40 PM
Easy the black guy.:cool:

Powerboy
06-01-2014, 02:41 PM
Alright what about Hancock vs Supes from Superman Returns? Considering it's the same Superman from the original Superman movies he has a lot more feats going for him. How would THAT fight go?

MoS vs. Hancock, Hancock takes it. They both had primarily displays of super fast flight speed, not combat speed. I still contend that. There were several situations where super combat speed would have been convenient and Hancock didn't show it. What he showed was head-on, line em up and fly into them flight speed. But his durability is way beyond Man of Steel.

If you go the other way, Hancock versus Superman Returns, it reverses. SR has the speed feat of going into the store and stopping a guy so fast they had to watch the cameras to see what happened and this was not a fly-by hit or grab. This was overall speed. He took a bullet to the eye. Since SR is the Superman of the first two Reeve movies, he took a nuclear missile explosion and was only kayoed for a few seconds. He lifted the San Andreas Fault and an entire island.

AdvanceBushido
06-01-2014, 04:26 PM
Supes got hit with a train and it took him out for over 10 seconds. Hancock got hit with a train and......it was like he didn't notice.

Who was throwing the train plays a factor. For instance, Hancock gets hit by train and he is fine. He gets hits by tractor trailer by his soulmate and he is down for a count. Keep in mind that at this time he was not affected by them being together.

Also Superman survives the impact of breaking the side of a mountain face. In addition to surviving being thrown through numerous buildings and then being hit by a satellite. As well as surviving being in the atmosphere that mimics Krypton.

Not to mention surviving and fighting Faora.

FrenchGemini
06-01-2014, 11:47 PM
Who was throwing the train plays a factor


Nope. Once the train has left the thrower's hands, what plays a factor is the mass and the velocity of the train at the time of the impact.

*rewatching both scenes... loading... *

So, in Hancock, the train is definitely not slowing down (at least not significantly enough to be noted), and then goes brutally to a stop. Hancock is just fine.

In MoS, Clark is hit by a lower mass, going maybe at a higher speed, but not significantly higher enough to deliver an energy at least close to what the Hancock train does. Not only Supes is dragged back by the train, but he is fazed by the hit.

Even if we were nice and gave equalized speed, the winner seems clear to me.

big_adventure
06-02-2014, 04:58 AM
Also Superman survives the impact of breaking the side of a mountain face.

This crap again? Damn you, reboot gods!!! He smashes through some ice and snow and maybe a bit of rock a at the very tippy-top of a peak in the Canadian Rockies.



In addition to surviving being thrown through numerous buildings and then being hit by a satellite.

Through mostly glass, cubicle walls and a couple of non-support members is all we see. And satellites weigh about what a human does, so hitting one of those at nearly no relative velocity is just as unimpressive.



As well as surviving being in the atmosphere that mimics Krypton.

Not impressive at all because first, it KO'd him and second, once adapted, he was fine. He's a kryptonian, he's kind of built to survive in a kryptonian atmosphere.



Not to mention surviving and fighting Faora.

Which involved all of him:

1. Being pretty strong, but nothing a class 50-type couldn't do.
2. Being pretty tough - he clearly was bothered by 25mm slugs from the helicopter gun, and was stunned on several occasions in his fights with Faora (and Nam Ek).
3. Having good travel-speed - he can charge in a relatively-straight line quickly, just like Faora does.
4. Not having even slightly impressive reflexes - both he and Faora charge at very high speed, then stop and make normal-speed-ish actions. Same for him and Zod, later.

Nothing on that list approaches the stuff Hancock pulls off.

Holacik
06-02-2014, 05:33 AM
This crap again? Damn you, reboot gods!!! He smashes through some ice and snow and maybe a bit of rock a at the very tippy-top of a peak in the Canadian Rockies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDGg4nFzr6Y That's almost all rock.



Through mostly glass, cubicle walls and a couple of non-support members is all we see. And satellites weigh about what a human does, so hitting one of those at nearly no relative velocity is just as unimpressive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMKsuA4Bi-c Seriously that satellite that is several times his size weighs the same as a human?




Which involved all of him:

1. Being pretty strong, but nothing a class 50-type couldn't do.
2. Being pretty tough - he clearly was bothered by 25mm slugs from the helicopter gun, and was stunned on several occasions in his fights with Faora (and Nam Ek).
3. Having good travel-speed - he can charge in a relatively-straight line quickly, just like Faora does.
4. Not having even slightly impressive reflexes - both he and Faora charge at very high speed, then stop and make normal-speed-ish actions. Same for him and Zod, later.

Nothing on that list approaches the stuff Hancock pulls off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN0kxT971Kw

And he your underselling what Faora does. She clearly dodges him when he's using flight speed, and then dodges him again while grabbing him. Her reaction speed is better then Hancocks.

Does any of that help Superman here? Not really.

Hiromi
06-02-2014, 05:45 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDGg4nFzr6Y That's almost all rock.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMKsuA4Bi-c Seriously that satellite that is several times his size weighs the same as a human.

Seriously, satellites are built out of super lightweight material on account of weight significantly increasing the amount of energy required to get to orbit

abmccray
06-02-2014, 05:59 AM
This crap again? Damn you, reboot gods!!! He smashes through some ice and snow and maybe a bit of rock a at the very tippy-top of a peak in the Canadian Rockies.



Through mostly glass, cubicle walls and a couple of non-support members is all we see. And satellites weigh about what a human does, so hitting one of those at nearly no relative velocity is just as unimpressive.



Not impressive at all because first, it KO'd him and second, once adapted, he was fine. He's a kryptonian, he's kind of built to survive in a kryptonian atmosphere.



Which involved all of him:

1. Being pretty strong, but nothing a class 50-type couldn't do.
2. Being pretty tough - he clearly was bothered by 25mm slugs from the helicopter gun, and was stunned on several occasions in his fights with Faora (and Nam Ek).
3. Having good travel-speed - he can charge in a relatively-straight line quickly, just like Faora does.
4. Not having even slightly impressive reflexes - both he and Faora charge at very high speed, then stop and make normal-speed-ish actions. Same for him and Zod, later.

Nothing on that list approaches the stuff Hancock pulls off.

You're making the mistake of under-selling, as shown by the linked videos. There is a bit of reaction speed shown there in the fight's for instance, because they are zooming to blocks/movements instead of just charges. He also manuevers around things at high speeds and short distances while flying. He has above human reaction speed; we just aren't sure enough to what it is to make it bullet time or more at this point.

Similarly, his highest durability feat was the gravity beam at the end, or re-entry, or smashing into the ground from outer space at some unknown speed. Once Clark accepted his powers, he got more and more powerful as the movie went on, and his feats gradually grew from there. Hancock's best feats were at the beginning of his movie (which makes sense since he was farther apart from his ex, then).

AdvanceBushido
06-02-2014, 06:12 AM
Nope. Once the train has left the thrower's hands, what plays a factor is the mass and the velocity of the train at the time of the impact.

*rewatching both scenes... loading... *

So, in Hancock, the train is definitely not slowing down (at least not significantly enough to be noted), and then goes brutally to a stop. Hancock is just fine.

In MoS, Clark is hit by a lower mass, going maybe at a higher speed, but not significantly higher enough to deliver an energy at least close to what the Hancock train does. Not only Supes is dragged back by the train, but he is fazed by the hit.

Even if we were nice and gave equalized speed, the winner seems clear to me.

You make a great point!

However, who is throwing the train does play a factor. If a child was to throw a ball, a young girl and a young boy, which one will hurt more? Physics plays apart but, what your not calculating is the strength that adds velocity and distance. Out of the aforementioned individuals who would throw the ball faster and longer?

AdvanceBushido
06-02-2014, 06:42 AM
This crap again? Damn you, reboot gods!!! He smashes through some ice and snow and maybe a bit of rock a at the very tippy-top of a peak in the Canadian Rockies.

Through mostly glass, cubicle walls and a couple of non-support members is all we see. And satellites weigh about what a human does, so hitting one of those at nearly no relative velocity is just as unimpressive.

Not impressive at all because first, it KO'd him and second, once adapted, he was fine. He's a kryptonian, he's kind of built to survive in a kryptonian atmosphere.

Which involved all of him:

1. Being pretty strong, but nothing a class 50-type couldn't do.
2. Being pretty tough - he clearly was bothered by 25mm slugs from the helicopter gun, and was stunned on several occasions in his fights with Faora (and Nam Ek).
3. Having good travel-speed - he can charge in a relatively-straight line quickly, just like Faora does.
4. Not having even slightly impressive reflexes - both he and Faora charge at very high speed, then stop and make normal-speed-ish actions. Same for him and Zod, later.

Nothing on that list approaches the stuff Hancock pulls off.

No, it wasn't just ice and snow. After all what is the ice and snow covering.
It is still pretty impressive due to how high he was when he started to fall.

Idk about that. The throw landed him in outer space. The only thing we did see was the last building he went through. So your assumption that most of it was glass and cubical walls if wrong.

Satellites can weight up 5 to 6 tons
http://transition.fcc.gov/cgb/kidszone/satellite/kidz/how_big_are_sats.html

I don't remember him being knocked out. What made it a great feat was that he was using his powers in a kryptonian atmosphere.

Holacik
06-02-2014, 06:59 AM
Seriously, satellites are built out of super lightweight material on account of weight significantly increasing the amount of energy required to get to orbit

The same weight as a human being?

big_adventure
06-02-2014, 08:16 AM
Satellites don't weigh much - "human being" was surely downgrading for the most part, but seriously, most weigh as little as possible. In any case, in a zero-g environment where there is almost no relative velocity, it's not a particularly impressive feat. Certainly nothing close to, well, every other durability feat he shows in the film.

People need to just get over the itty-bitty part of the top of the mountain that Clark hits when falling from his failure to launch (completely). I mean, it's not a terrible feat to have or anything, but it is (still) being so ridiculously oversold "ZOMG Clark blew up a mountain!!!!!" - when that has nothing at all to do with what happens.

And for the speed, seriously, none of them do anything really all that close to CBPH, where Hancock at least has a low-end BT feat (slapping aside the rocket that was somehow shot from a .50cal) and some blitzes through a building where he flat out can't be seen and yet takes action at those speeds.

Cody
06-02-2014, 08:24 AM
(and Nam Ek).

"Nam Ek"!? Are you serious? AHAHAHAHAHAHA

Also, I have been thinking; the bank scene from Hancock would actually indeed be a bit of a reaction feat for him as well. Considering he didn't accidentally turn the bank robbers into past when he rushed into them, and didn't create any extra holes in the bank as he was entering and exiting the bank each time he took one of the robbers, that would mean he would of had to react at the speeds he was going. He would of had to:

A: Grab the bank robbers with his hands as he was flying at that speed, otherwise he would have charged into them and turn them into a bloody mess. He would of had to grab them and take off with them at the right moment so that the velocity he was moving at didn't harm them.

B: Grab them and then leave the way he came or through another opening in the building so that he didn't, again, hurt them, or damage the bank.

Then there is the moon. At the end of the movie he left his friends group symbol on the moon to help him out. People on the ground were just noticing it as he was telling his buddy to look up at the moon. That would mean that he just finished redecorating the moon.

So he does indeed have some form of super reaction time.

Holacik
06-02-2014, 08:41 AM
People need to just get over the itty-bitty part of the top of the mountain that Clark hits when falling from his failure to launch (completely). I mean, it's not a terrible feat to have or anything, but it is (still) being so ridiculously oversold "ZOMG Clark blew up a mountain!!!!!" - when that has nothing at all to do with what happens.

No one said that in this thread though. It's just as bad to undersell a feat as it is to oversell it. The guy hits the top part of the mountain it's clearly all rock he hits, not ice and snow.

FrenchGemini
06-02-2014, 09:02 AM
You make a great point!

However, who is throwing the train does play a factor. If a child was to throw a ball, a young girl and a young boy, which one will hurt more? Physics plays apart but, what your not calculating is the strength that adds velocity and distance. Out of the aforementioned individuals who would throw the ball faster and longer?

I do get your point. Of course someone using more strength to their throw will give, all other things being equal, a greater acceleration to the train/ball/whatever, which would mean a greater top speed :).

What I was interested in was the velocity of the projectile (the surface of impact would have been nice to study too, but both Hancock and Clark took the hit on their whole body, so it's rather irrelevant) at the moment of impact, and the characters' respective reactions to that impact, which is more significative of their strength and durability than whoever sent the train on them, whether it was Nam Ek, the train's engine, or, heck, Galactus (well, in that last case, they have bigger problems than a train coming at them).

Powerboy
06-02-2014, 09:50 AM
"Nam Ek"!? Are you serious? AHAHAHAHAHAHA

Also, I have been thinking; the bank scene from Hancock would actually indeed be a bit of a reaction feat for him as well. Considering he didn't accidentally turn the bank robbers into past when he rushed into them, and didn't create any extra holes in the bank as he was entering and exiting the bank each time he took one of the robbers, that would mean he would of had to react at the speeds he was going. He would of had to:

A: Grab the bank robbers with his hands as he was flying at that speed, otherwise he would have charged into them and turn them into a bloody mess. He would of had to grab them and take off with them at the right moment so that the velocity he was moving at didn't harm them.

B: Grab them and then leave the way he came or through another opening in the building so that he didn't, again, hurt them, or damage the bank.

Then there is the moon. At the end of the movie he left his friends group symbol on the moon to help him out. People on the ground were just noticing it as he was telling his buddy to look up at the moon. That would mean that he just finished redecorating the moon.

So he does indeed have some form of super reaction time.

Did we actually see those robbers still alive after? I recall just seeing evidence that someone flew through the room again and again too fast to be seen. Never really showed whether he was or was not going through the walls. Considering that, in the same situation, the guy held him at bay and Hancock could not manage to move just a few feet fast enough to reach him and do anything at super combat speed and instead had to come up with a clever way to stop him, it does not bode well for a claim of any super combat speed or even extremely fast acceleration, certainly not as fast as a guy could react and push a button. It comes across more as a guy who flies very fast but takes a second to get up to speed targeting people and flying either into them or arms out and grabbing them as he goes by and with nothing that could be called super combat speed.

To say he does not kill them (uncertain) and that proves some sort of combat speed? No. Being accelerated from zero to too fast to see would kill them anyway in real life so its more about them having comic book durability than about him at that point.

One could argue that, dramatic license aside, he would have to have decorated the Moon really fast aside from his acknowledged flight speed to get home as fast as he did when people were just noticing it. But for me, that's juxtaposed with other scenes where he blatantly did not have super combat speed.

Moot to who wins the battle, of course.

Cody
06-02-2014, 09:59 AM
Did we actually see those robbers still alive after? I recall just seeing evidence that someone flew through the room again and again too fast to be seen. Never really showed whether he was or was not going through the walls.
Even at the beginning of the movie he never killed anyone. Just caused a lot of property damage. By the time the bank robbery happens he changed to where he tries not to cause any property damage as well. So yes, they were alive.


Considering that, in the same situation, the guy held him at bay and Hancock could not manage to move just a few feet fast enough to reach him and do anything at super combat speed and instead had to come up with a clever way to stop him, it does not bode well for a claim of any super combat speed or even extremely fast acceleration, certainly not as fast as a guy could react and push a button. It comes across more as a guy who flies very fast but takes a second to get up to speed targeting people and flying either into them or arms out and grabbing them as he goes by and with nothing that could be called super combat speed.
Yea no. The only reason he went with that "clever way" was due to the guy calling him an asshole. Which he doesn't like being called. Prior to that he didn't seem to worried.


To say he does not kill them (uncertain) and that proves some sort of combat speed? No. Being accelerated from zero to too fast to see would kill them anyway in real life so its more about them having comic book durability than about him at that point.

You miss the part about him not causing anymore damage to the bank, meaning he grabbed them and then flew out the way he came, meaning he would of had to make several turns while flying at high speeds


One could argue that, dramatic license aside, he would have to have decorated the Moon really fast aside from his acknowledged flight speed to get home as fast as he did when people were just noticing it. But for me, that's juxtaposed with other scenes where he blatantly did not have super combat speed.

Yet fits fine with the scenes where he does show super speed such as the bank scene. Not only that but considering that the humans have shown to have comparable durability to us all in all? It is quite likely he had to grab the humans in the bank robbery while adjusting his velocity so that he didn't smash them into paste.

abmccray
06-02-2014, 11:01 AM
Satellites don't weigh much - "human being" was surely downgrading for the most part, but seriously, most weigh as little as possible. In any case, in a zero-g environment where there is almost no relative velocity, it's not a particularly impressive feat. Certainly nothing close to, well, every other durability feat he shows in the film.

People need to just get over the itty-bitty part of the top of the mountain that Clark hits when falling from his failure to launch (completely). I mean, it's not a terrible feat to have or anything, but it is (still) being so ridiculously oversold "ZOMG Clark blew up a mountain!!!!!" - when that has nothing at all to do with what happens.

And for the speed, seriously, none of them do anything really all that close to CBPH, where Hancock at least has a low-end BT feat (slapping aside the rocket that was somehow shot from a .50cal) and some blitzes through a building where he flat out can't be seen and yet takes action at those speeds.

It's not "itty bitty" - it was the top 1/8th or so of the mountain (can check when I get home), which would still be low end Class 100 force exerted. When people first saw the movie at theaters, and the scene went by fairly quickly and not expected (so you weren't looking for size relationships going into it), it was misreported as "half," but now that we can scrutinize it and see, it's still a relatively hefty feat for a movie character.

Also, flying and maneuvering to direct points and making 90 degree turns, etc. (which I can check exactly when I get home) is a reaction feat. As is stopping on a dime at a burst. "Flight speed" is taking off, going in a straight line and then landing somewhere. This is not reaction speed because someone can take off at a much slower speed, maneuver around things far away (Think of driving at 80mph, and handling a curve - you see it coming, slow down, and pre maneuver based on that. Compare it to someone unexpected jumping in front of the car 5 feet from you at that speed an maneuvering around it.), and start slowing once they get near their destination. The burst speed of the Kryptonians was too precise to just be travel, reacting to the bursts with blocks and such showed reaction, and maneuvering around buildings at high speeds is reaction as well.

We don't know -what- the speed is, exactly, because it's really hard to calculate, but we know it's "fast." Most people just called it "some unknown degree of super reaction that we can't quite call bullet timing yet."

big_adventure
06-02-2014, 01:50 PM
It's not "itty bitty" - it was the top 1/8th or so of the mountain (can check when I get home), which would still be low end Class 100 force exerted. When people first saw the movie at theaters, and the scene went by fairly quickly and not expected (so you weren't looking for size relationships going into it), it was misreported as "half," but now that we can scrutinize it and see, it's still a relatively hefty feat for a movie character.

I've watched that scene for rumbles dozens of times now (I have the HD version on this computer), and it's nothing remotely approaching either "class 100" nor "1/8th of the mountain."


No one said that in this thread though. It's just as bad to undersell a feat as it is to oversell it. The guy hits the top part of the mountain it's clearly all rock he hits, not ice and snow.

Nor is it anything like "all rock", which is an amazing thing to say, given that he's in an arctic wasteland, all you see of the mountain externally is snow, he only really scrapes a trench into the tip of it. I'm not arguing that he didn't hit some rock in the perhaps 100 foot trench that got dug, but even claiming that it was rock for the majority is a ridiculous stretch.



Also, flying and maneuvering to direct points and making 90 degree turns, etc. (which I can check exactly when I get home) is a reaction feat. As is stopping on a dime at a burst. "Flight speed" is taking off, going in a straight line and then landing somewhere. This is not reaction speed because someone can take off at a much slower speed, maneuver around things far away (Think of driving at 80mph, and handling a curve - you see it coming, slow down, and pre maneuver based on that. Compare it to someone unexpected jumping in front of the car 5 feet from you at that speed an maneuvering around it.), and start slowing once they get near their destination. The burst speed of the Kryptonians was too precise to just be travel, reacting to the bursts with blocks and such showed reaction, and maneuvering around buildings at high speeds is reaction as well.

We don't know -what- the speed is, exactly, because it's really hard to calculate, but we know it's "fast." Most people just called it "some unknown degree of super reaction that we can't quite call bullet timing yet."

Actually, no, nobody really called it that, if they paid attention. All of these things you state - any kind of precise maneuvering - is exactly what they don't ever really do. They expressly completely fail to bullet time when given the opportunity - with the rounds from the A-10 and the Apache, both of which caused pain and distraction, to the rounds from the hand weapons which, admittedly, did not.

Powerboy
06-02-2014, 02:10 PM
Cody said: "Even at the beginning of the movie he never killed anyone. Just caused a lot of property damage. By the time the bank robbery happens he changed to where he tries not to cause any property damage as well. So yes, they were alive.

Yea no. The only reason he went with that "clever way" was due to the guy calling him an asshole. Which he doesn't like being called. Prior to that he didn't seem to worried."

Yeah he deals with being called an asshole by taking little kids and tossing them into the sky, not by coming up with clever plans. He has to carefully come up with something against the guy which he does but it involves cutting the guy's arm off. Sure would have scared the guy if he grabbed him and rocketed into the sky with him before he could even react and push a button. But every time he tries to get too close the guy threatens to push it or let go of it and he chats with him to buy time and get ready. Guess he could have grabbed that object at super speed and cut it with his fingernail at super speed too. But no. He didn't display any super speed. "Things they didn't show" (ie. they didn't show the walls of the bank as he did his fly-bys) isn't evidence of super speed, especially when ignoring reams of things clearly indicating no superspeed when it would have been real handy. We simply do not see these alleged displays of super speed other than flight speed and an implied one at the end.

Cody said: "You miss the part about him not causing anymore damage to the bank, meaning he grabbed them and then flew out the way he came, meaning he would of had to make several turns while flying at high speeds."

As I recall, he hear a sound like maybe super fast flight and a guy is gone. We hear another and another guy is gone. We don't see the beginning and end of his flight. You can ssume there was no further damage to the bank. But we see nothing but the indication that he's doing fly-bys in a scene where he blatantly lacks super combat speed in a situation and nobody can point to a super combat speed feat, only "super flight flyby grabs equals super combat speed."

Cody: "Yet fits fine with the scenes where he does show super speed such as the bank scene. Not only that but considering that the humans have shown to have comparable durability to us all in all? It is quite likely he had to grab the humans in the bank robbery while adjusting his velocity so that he didn't smash them into paste."

Rather the scenes where he blatantly does not except for flight and the scene couldn't be more clear that he doesn't. "I don't run over to this guy, pry loose a bomb and get rid of it so fast he can't do anything but somehow people still insist I have super speed cause I fly fast." As to human durability in the movie, yeah, this movie does not have any sort of things with normal humans displaying superhuman durability because people can really take that kind of stuff shoved up their anal cavities and we all know superhero stories don't commonly have normal humans surviving impossible stuff like being accelerated from zero to invisible speeds in a fraction of a second so it simply MUST be that Hancock has super combat speed that- dare I mention this again?- he never actually displays.

I would also note on the flight thing and the "no new damage to the bank" that being able to do a 180 in flight would still come down to flight speed. I realize you are trying to argue that it requires super thought speed to think of making the turn and arm speed to grab but as these would be things he was thinking about ahead of time not so certain. It still comes down to he must need a moment to get accelerated or he would have taken out the other guy to save lives without the extra risk. He would have just flown into the guy, done his 180 and gotten him away from people. Then again, super body movements. But he can't move a few steps and move his arms fast enough.

Cody
06-02-2014, 03:18 PM
Yeah he deals with being called an asshole by taking little kids and tossing them into the sky, not by coming up with clever plans.
You were the one that said he came up with a "cleaver" way, which is why I had the word in quotes. And again, that was prior to reforming and on top of that, the kid was alive. So once again; your point is moot.


He has to carefully come up with something against the guy which he does but it involves cutting the guy's arm off. Sure would have scared the guy if he grabbed him and rocketed into the sky with him before he could even react and push a button.
He wasn't "carefully" planning anything. If you watched the scene he was casual the whole time. You are comparing the incident with a young innocent child to a criminal. He will obviously go easier on the kid than he would with the criminal. Again, he wasn't worried at all about the button. He goes to more extreme lengths when criminals call him an asshole, just like he did in prison when he shoved the one guy up an others behind.


But every time he tries to get too close the guy threatens to push it or let go of it and he chats with him to buy time and get ready. Guess he could have grabbed that object at super speed and cut it with his fingernail at super speed too. But no. He didn't display any super speed. "Things they didn't show" (ie. they didn't show the walls of the bank as he did his fly-bys) isn't evidence of super speed, especially when ignoring reams of things clearly indicating no superspeed when it would have been real handy. We simply do not see these alleged displays of super speed other than flight speed and an implied one at the end.

To the bolded: you don't speak for everyone so don't act as if you do. And he isn't talking with the guy to buy time, he is talking to the guy as he casually breaks the top of a post down into a sharp disc to chuck at him. You reaching for straws by claiming he is being careful due to him talking with the guy while making the weapon isn't going to hold up. Not when he is far from looking worried or threatened during the entire scene. He isn't going to bloody his own hands and make himself look bad by having bloodstains on his costume by ripping the guys hand off, not when he has promised to change. Thus; the disc.

And we know he didn't put any holes in the walls of the bank due to A: lack of sound of walls being smashed into and B: It would go against his promise on not causing needless destruction.

And yes, as already been mentioned by abmccray, the fly byes would indeed count for reaction time as he would have to maneuver at the very last second, and grab each individual, and leave without putting a whole in the wall.


As I recall, he hear a sound like maybe super fast flight and a guy is gone. We hear another and another guy is gone. We don't see the beginning and end of his flight. You can ssume there was no further damage to the bank. But we see nothing but the indication that he's doing fly-bys in a scene where he blatantly lacks super combat speed in a situation and nobody can point to a super combat speed feat, only "super flight flyby grabs equals super combat speed."

So the lack of rubble and concrete being smashed through isn't enough of a tip for you? How about the fact that as each guy is being taken, everyone is looking around wondering what the hell is going on? He is obviously moving too fast for them to see he has taken someone, and moving fast enough to enter and leave the bank each time without creating a hole in the wall.


Rather the scenes where he blatantly does not except for flight and the scene couldn't be more clear that he doesn't.
You want a stool? Because you aren't going to be getting them straws at the rate your going. We see the people wondering what is happening as each individual is taken before they know what happened. We do not hear anything being destroyed as he leaves and renters the building, meaning he gets the guy, leaves the way he came in, and comes back in to get another guy, all at high speed. Meaning he has to maneuver through the building and grab a guy without seriously crippling them.


"I don't run over to this guy, pry loose a bomb and get rid of it so fast he can't do anything but somehow people still insist I have super speed cause I fly fast."
You say while ignoring the fact that it is an obvious case of CIS/PIS on Hancocks part. Especially when he shows another feat of super reaction time when he created a symbol on the moon that people were just noticing when he was telling his buddy over the phone.


As to human durability in the movie, yeah, this movie does not have any sort of things with normal humans displaying superhuman durability because people can really take that kind of stuff shoved up their anal cavities and we all know superhero stories don't commonly have normal humans surviving impossible stuff like being accelerated from zero to invisible speeds in a fraction of a second so it simply MUST be that Hancock has super combat speed that- dare I mention this again?- he never actually displays.

You can say it until you are blue in the face, it won't make you suddenly right. And you would be surprised at what people could survive, someone like having a head up there momentarily isn't something that would instantly kill someone.


I would also note on the flight thing and the "no new damage to the bank" that being able to do a 180 in flight would still come down to flight speed.
You say while conveniently ignoring the bit about him having to maneuver throughout the entire bank while keeping up the same speed the entire time.


I realize you are trying to argue that it requires super thought speed to think of making the turn and arm speed to grab but as these would be things he was thinking about ahead of time not so certain.
So with this logic, if I think about dodging a bullet ahead of time, I can? I didn't know that! Thanks!


It still comes down to he must need a moment to get accelerated or he would have taken out the other guy to save lives without the extra risk. He would have just flown into the guy, done his 180 and gotten him away from people. Then again, super body movements. But he can't move a few steps and move his arms fast enough.
Except he has shown that he can while grabbing each robber. And again while making the insignia on the moon.

Also, use the "reply with quotes" function. Are you on your phone or something?

UltraMagnetic
06-02-2014, 03:48 PM
Heat Vision might be MoS' ace in the hole. The scene where Hancock comes out of a burning building, the fire didn't damage him but it did seem to have some kind of affect as he was desperate to cool down. Superman's heat vision melted most of a steel beam in almost no time at all so he'll definitely feel it a lot more than a burning building.

Charlie
06-02-2014, 04:06 PM
Heat Vision might be MoS' ace in the hole. The scene where Hancock comes out of a burning building, the fire didn't damage him but it did seem to have some kind of affect as he was desperate to cool down. Superman's heat vision melted most of a steel beam in almost no time at all so he'll definitely feel it a lot more than a burning building.

It took a bit of time to discharge. Hancock should be fast enough to dodge it.

UltraMagnetic
06-02-2014, 04:30 PM
It took a bit of time to discharge. Hancock should be fast enough to dodge it.

I don't know about that. Zod swung the steel beam at him and Superman melted a good bit of it before it even reached him.

Charlie
06-02-2014, 04:37 PM
I don't know about that. Zod swung the steel beam at him and Superman melted a good bit of it before it even reached him.
It wasn't a straight swing. Zod jumped towards Superman and slowly swung it at him. Superman took about 1/2 a second to charge up the HV and then it was only for a short burst before it strained him and he stopped.

Guy1
06-02-2014, 04:40 PM
It wasn't a straight swing. Zod jumped towards Superman and slowly swung it at him. Superman took about 1/2 a second to charge up the HV and then it was only for a short burst before it strained him and he stopped.

Didn't he use it for a longer time when he was melting ice? Zod was certainly using it for longer than Supes did for the steel beam before Supes stopped him.

Surtur
06-02-2014, 04:53 PM
Alright what about Hancock vs Supes from Superman Returns? Considering it's the same Superman from the original Superman movies he has a lot more feats going for him. How would THAT fight go?

Just using the feats from the Superman Returns movie..Supes is WAY WAY WAY stronger then Hancock. Adding in the feats of Reeves Supes just makes it overkill. So yeah, for now, the only movie Supes Hancock can defeat is the MoS version.

I'm also confused, people said MoS Supes was taken out by a train or something, but what? I remember trains being thrown at him by other people. I do not remember a train normally going about it's business hitting him. I would hope people were not trying to compare the two, given I'm pretty sure a dude with super strength was tossing train cars at Supes, while Hancock just plain got hit by a train going down the tracks.

Powerboy
06-02-2014, 05:21 PM
He wasn't "carefully" planning anything. If you watched the scene he was casual the whole time. You are comparing the incident with a young innocent child to a criminal. He will obviously go easier on the kid than he would with the criminal. Again, he wasn't worried at all about the button. He goes to more extreme lengths when criminals call him an asshole, just like he did in prison when he shoved the one guy up an others behind.


Okay this is getting heated so apologies for getting snarky.

I think he was behaving casually to distract the guy from what he was really doing which was preparing something to throw at him. His pattern just didn't seem "clever". He reacted emotionally. Also, cutting off a guy's arm, even a criminal, is not good PR IF he could have just solved the whole thing with super speed.



To the bolded: you don't speak for everyone so don't act as if you do. And he isn't talking with the guy to buy time, he is talking to the guy as he casually breaks the top of a post down into a sharp disc to chuck at him. You reaching for straws by claiming he is being careful due to him talking with the guy while making the weapon isn't going to hold up. Not when he is far from looking worried or threatened during the entire scene. He isn't going to bloody his own hands and make himself look bad by having bloodstains on his costume by ripping the guys hand off, not when he has promised to change. Thus; the disc.

I saw it as chatting with him while making a weapon and not wanting the guy to see what he was making. Hancock doesn't look worried, true. But this bomb is no threat to him.


And yes, as already been mentioned by abmccray, the fly byes would indeed count for reaction time as he would have to maneuver at the very last second, and grab each individual, and leave without putting a whole in the wall.

I don't think grabbing proves as much as some think it does. Anyone, given the durability, could just stick his arm out and grab somebody. It hits them. It carries them along. He closes his hand along the way.


So the lack of rubble and concrete being smashed through isn't enough of a tip for you? How about the fact that as each guy is being taken, everyone is looking around wondering what the hell is going on? He is obviously moving too fast for them to see he has taken someone, and moving fast enough to enter and leave the bank each time without creating a hole in the wall.


Yes but he's in flight. And already moving at a fantastic speed. That would mean he risked the guy pushing or letting go of the button while concocting some elaborate scheme. Given the durability, strength and a car that could make such a 180, I or you could rocket in their with arm out already lined up and out again without having super body speed. Sure he's going faster than a car but we don't see the scene. We see the guy hear a noise and he turns and Hancock has already flown by. From a standing start, we just don't see him able to accelerate that fast or move his arms or legs that fast.


You want a stool? Because you aren't going to be getting them straws at the rate your going. We see the people wondering what is happening as each individual is taken before they know what happened. We do not hear anything being destroyed as he leaves and renters the building, meaning he gets the guy, leaves the way he came in, and comes back in to get another guy, all at high speed. Meaning he has to maneuver through the building and grab a guy without seriously crippling them. [/quote/]

But considering the speed he would have to be moving at, he would not have time to slow down, grab and accelerate at a reasonable level that a person could endure and all before anyone knows what happened. It's probably more in the stock comic thing where Superman grabs somebody at Mach speed and they are just peachy. I saw it more as fly-bys. I get that at the very least he had to do a 180 but I juxtapose that with a non-flying scene where he didn't seem more than humanly fast at all and the scene seemed to emphasize his limits.

[quote]
You say while ignoring the fact that it is an obvious case of CIS/PIS on Hancocks part. Especially when he shows another feat of super reaction time when he created a symbol on the moon that people were just noticing when he was telling his buddy over the phone.

With a couple of feats to go by, I get that it comes down to what people see as "the feats" and what they see as the PIS. I saw the end scene about the Moon as implied at best and uncertain as to what it was supposed to have meant. I saw the big combat scene not involving flight as more significant but, with so few feats, I admit it comes down to what we are perceiving as more relevant.


So with this logic, if I think about dodging a bullet ahead of time, I can? I didn't know that! Thanks!

No. But I'm saying that, given the strength and durability (which Hancock clearly had), flying at a target you see and hitting it or arm out. That's not the same as dodging a bullet. Even with the 180, it doesn't require the mental and physical movement speed (arms). Give the strength and durability, I can see moving at a target that has been marked well ahead, arms out, even the point at which the turn will occur already marked. But that's perhaps my attempt to make everything that happens make sense given the small number of feats.

One could as easily argue that the scene with the guy was PIS where suddenly it takes time to accelerate/ de-accelerate while the flight scene ignored any realistic acceleration/ de-acceleration time. Or that the whole scene with the guy and the throwing weapon was just low end.

UltraMagnetic
06-02-2014, 05:45 PM
It wasn't a straight swing. Zod jumped towards Superman and slowly swung it at him. Superman took about 1/2 a second to charge up the HV and then it was only for a short burst before it strained him and he stopped.

I have to look at it again but are you sure they just didn't slow that scene down for effect? I don't understand why someone would slowly swing at something they want to hit the hell out of.

UltraMagnetic
06-02-2014, 05:58 PM
Looking at the bank scene again and I don't see anything to show any kind of exceptional combat speed. He flies the crooks out of the bank real fast but that's travel speed. Even when he threw the disc at that guy's hand it was just him catching the crook off guard and not blinding speed.

UltraMagnetic
06-02-2014, 06:10 PM
I have to look at it again but are you sure they just didn't slow that scene down for effect? I don't understand why someone would slowly swing at something they want to hit the hell out of.

Saw the scene and it was not slowed down. The HV activation looked almost instant (you see his eyes glow red and then zap). It took a couple of seconds for him to melt half the beam.

Cody
06-02-2014, 11:10 PM
Okay this is getting heated so apologies for getting snarky.

I think he was behaving casually to distract the guy from what he was really doing which was preparing something to throw at him. His pattern just didn't seem "clever". He reacted emotionally. Also, cutting off a guy's arm, even a criminal, is not good PR IF he could have just solved the whole thing with super speed.

He was acting casually before being called an asshole. He didn't seem worried at all. Then he got mad by being called an asshole, to which he decided he was going to cut off the arm.

And yes, cutting a guys arm off with a weapon looks a lot better than outright ripping it off.





I saw it as chatting with him while making a weapon and not wanting the guy to see what he was making. Hancock doesn't look worried, true. But this bomb is no threat to him.
Doesn't matter how you see it. He wasn't worried because he knew he could easily get the trigger before anything serious happens. He is trying to save people. If he honestly thought he couldn't get the trigger in time, then he would look worried.




I don't think grabbing proves as much as some think it does. Anyone, given the durability, could just stick his arm out and grab somebody. It hits them. It carries them along. He closes his hand along the way.
No normal human would survive it. These aren't comic book peak humans like the bat family. These are just ordinary humans. They never have shown any type of durability above what an average human can do. They don't suddenly gain super human durability because you say so.




Yes but he's in flight. And already moving at a fantastic speed.
And if he was moving in a straight line or making slow turns you would actually have a point. But you don't because he would be making several sharp turns in rapid concession.


That would mean he risked the guy pushing or letting go of the button while concocting some elaborate scheme.
Except he didn't need to. Again it's called plot induced stupidity, it happens a lot in fiction.


Given the durability, strength and a car that could make such a 180, I or you could rocket in their with arm out already lined up and out again without having super body speed.
No car moves so fast that people are wondering wth went past them as it takes other people. And it is impossible for a human to be moving that fast and making those turns in that small amount of time.


Sure he's going faster than a car but we don't see the scene.
We see the robbers suddenly getting picked off one by one and, despite the bank being filled with people, no one could see what happened to them. We can get a pretty clear idea on what happened from that.


We see the guy hear a noise and he turns and Hancock has already flown by. From a standing start, we just don't see him able to accelerate that fast or move his arms or legs that fast.

No one in the room sees what happened. You are purposfully leaving out points in the scene.


But considering the speed he would have to be moving at, he would not have time to slow down, grab and accelerate at a reasonable level that a person could endure and all before anyone knows what happened.
He could if he has super reaction time. Which he does. The same thing happened with Superman from "super man returns" as someone described earlier in this thread.


It's probably more in the stock comic thing where Superman grabs somebody at Mach speed and they are just peachy. I saw it more as fly-bys.
And if it wasn't in a small place with him going in and out of the same opening then you would have a point.


I get that at the very least he had to do a 180 but I juxtapose that with a non-flying scene where he didn't seem more than humanly fast at all and the scene seemed to emphasize his limits.

No. The bank robbery is far from showing his limits. As you see throughout the entire damn event.



No. But I'm saying that, given the strength and durability (which Hancock clearly had), flying at a target you see and hitting it or arm out. That's not the same as dodging a bullet.
You can stop with the idea that he held his arm out as he grabbed people. That has been refuted already. He moved it, grabbed them, and left.


Even with the 180, it doesn't require the mental and physical movement speed (arms). Give the strength and durability, I can see moving at a target that has been marked well ahead, arms out, even the point at which the turn will occur already marked. But that's perhaps my attempt to make everything that happens make sense given the small number of feats.
It's less that and more you trying to downplay a feat to support your argument.


One could as easily argue that the scene with the guy was PIS where suddenly it takes time to accelerate/ de-accelerate while the flight scene ignored any realistic acceleration/ de-acceleration time. Or that the whole scene with the guy and the throwing weapon was just low end.

In the end, we go by high end feats. And the moon feat is just that. It had to have been there for no more than an hour. People were just noticing it as Hancock pointed it out to his buddy. Meaning he flew to the moon, redecorated it, went back to Earth, and called his friend. That would take some form of super speed.Both travel andreaction.