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Matt the Manly
05-01-2014, 12:04 AM
Daredevil goes up against this team

Deathstroke(post crisis)
Lady Shiva
Richard Dragon
Bronze Tiger
Connor Hawke

h2h only
Can he take them all, at the same time?

Jonathan
05-01-2014, 12:24 AM
Honestly, I don't like his chances against Deathstroke alone, much less this whole team. Deathstroke seems about as skilled and stronger and better armed and more use to going up against metahuman teams.

Matt the Manly
05-01-2014, 12:47 AM
Honestly, I don't like his chances against Deathstroke alone, much less this whole team.
Matt is a bullet timer, Slade is not



Deathstroke seems about as skilled
Slade himself notes that He doesnt like his chances vs bruce on skill alone
Matt by feats is more skilled than bruce

and stronger
maybe


and better armed
just to clarify, its h2h only

and more use to going up against metahuman teams.
Cant think of a single time that happened which did not involve PIS

Fast
05-01-2014, 11:12 AM
Outside the arena where he could divide and conquer it would be a stomp but in the arena they might be too much for him. All of the DCers are in the not quite BT (or around there) area and I'm hazy on just how they stack up against high-end bullet timers.

Jonathan
05-01-2014, 11:55 AM
Matt is a bullet timer, Slade is not



Slade himself notes that He doesnt like his chances vs bruce on skill alone
Matt by feats is more skilled than bruce

maybe


just to clarify, its h2h only

Cant think of a single time that happened which did not involve PIS

Yes, Matt certainly has the speed and agility edge, but I really don't get who you are saying Daredevil is more skilled than Batman, who is generally considered to be a reasonable match for Captain America(and has fought Wonder Woman when it was just a matter of skill).

Matt the Manly
05-01-2014, 12:13 PM
Yes, Matt certainly has the speed and agility edge,
Its a significant edge. As in "I treat Captain America like a joke when he has prepped against me" kind of speed edge


but I really don't get who you are saying Daredevil is more skilled than Batman,
Daredevil pressure points through armour that no sells tank fire. He pressure points through armour that has just withstood gunshots like nothing. He pressure points metas with durability enough to not even notice gunshots/smashing through concrete/ glass to the point of KOing a Class 50 brick by poking him on the chest

Batman on a good day occasionally manages to KO a steriod munching mook with a nerve strike/exotic technique

Based on feats and Batman's lack of similar skill feats against metas , Matt is more skilled even before throwing in*his occasional Chi stuff, body reading etc


who is generally considered to be a reasonable match for Captain America
Captain America when prepped gets treated like a joke by DD

When DD is in no mood for playing about he just proceeds to one shot Cap( and most of the Avengers)

Cap when facing a DD who has just returned from Hell(literally) and is in crap condition , can only just beat him

That's even ignoring Matts speed/skill feats over the years that require most of their fights which last more than a couple of panels, to be utter PIS



(and has fought Wonder Woman when it was just a matter of skill).
Thr first thing here is Diana is by no means one of the top fighters in DC based on skill alone by feats

The second is , even if Diana WAS holding back her strength(and I think this is the fight you are referring to), she can flat out react to anything he throws at her without breaking sweat, given her near light speed reflexes

So she has to be an utter idiot to lose to a guy whose movements are well....not movements at all to her.

Tangent Man
05-01-2014, 01:03 PM
Scans or issue numbers/arcs, please. Because I remember DD harried by a blood-lusted Cap in "Streets of Poison"!

MorphyVSFischer
05-01-2014, 01:11 PM
Scans or issue numbers/arcs, please. Because I remember DD harried by a blood-lusted Cap in "Streets of Poison"!

More people job to Cap then perhaps almost any other character besides perhaps Wolverine and Batman so one win for him doesn't really matter for his overall performance.

Tangent Man
05-01-2014, 01:39 PM
More people job to Cap then perhaps almost any other character besides perhaps Wolverine and Batman so one win for him doesn't really matter for his overall performance.

That doesn't address the claims from Matt about nerve-punching Class 50 types and the like, though. Mr. Hyde? I'm asking for supports for the Feats, and being pretty generous about it.

Pendaran
05-01-2014, 01:59 PM
Scans or issue numbers/arcs, please. Because I remember DD harried by a blood-lusted Cap in "Streets of Poison"!

Said Daredevil was himself far off from his usual capacity, and was noted as such.

Pendaran
05-01-2014, 02:20 PM
Having just noticed this..


glass to the point of KOing a Class 50 brick by poking him on the chest

If you mean Hyde, his entire shtick is that his power level varies wildly from appearance to appearance as an in concept thing, going from trading some shots with Thor to Captain America being able to take him on. He's like Solomon Grundy in that sense.

If you mean someone else... that's a bridge wayyy too far for Daredevil. He doesn't have any kind of anything on that scale as far as presentation, most of his showings, etc.

Matt the Manly
05-01-2014, 10:28 PM
Scans or issue numbers/arcs, please. Because I remember DD harried by a blood-lusted Cap in "Streets of Poison"!
Matt being just back from hell kinda explains that one. Just how out of shape was he? well in the next DD issue (where his beat down by Cap is referred to) , he gets KOd by a two bit mook as he is hallucinating. as he cannot quite reconcile to the idea of being to hell and back, thinks he might have imgined it all;because his personal life is a mess( as usual) etc

and when he wakes up from THAT blow, he loses his memory altogether

Matt the Manly
05-02-2014, 12:02 AM
Having just noticed this..



If you mean Hyde, his entire shtick is that his power level varies wildly from appearance to appearance as an in concept thing, going from trading some shots with Thor to Captain America being able to take him on. He's like Solomon Grundy in that sense.

If you mean someone else... that's a bridge wayyy too far for Daredevil. He doesn't have any kind of anything on that scale as far as presentation, most of his showings, etc.

Really? I could have sworn that Mr Hyde had been pretty consistently portrayed as a mid tier guy for the last ten years or so.

Also, how valid is his "one shotting Wolverine" feat on this board? Given that it was written by Ennis?

How valid is DD beating Absorbing Man?

Tangent Man
05-02-2014, 01:51 AM
Fair enough. The trip to Hell brutalized Matt (one of my favorite Post-Miller stories)! I'd still like proof of the other stuff, though, at least in a way that provides perspective on why DD trumps Cap or Deathstroke.

After all his bullying and bluster in the "Siege On Avengers Mansion" arc, Cap & Dane easily softened Mr. Hyde up for Wasp & Thor.

Matt the Manly
05-02-2014, 02:23 AM
Fair enough. The trip to Hell brutalized Matt (one of my favorite Post-Miller stories)! I'd still like proof of the other stuff, though, at least in a way that provides perspective on why DD trumps Cap or Deathstroke.
Let me put it this way

Speed- Matt is a bullet timer. Bullet timers are people who react to Bullets AFTER they are fired. Matt is one of the most consistent bullet timers in comics having done it for decades since his inception

Cap is an aim dodger. Aim dodgers are people who dodge the aim of the shooter, that is, they outreact the shooter and not the bullet itself, which is pretty impressive given they are usually facing multiple shooters in confined spaces. but they are still outreacting only human movement, which fast as it is, is an absolute joke compared to the speed of an actual bullet once it has left the barell

Deathstroke is a ringer, a person who lies between bullet timer and aim dodger. he is SLIGHTLY faster than Batman/Cap (peak human aim dodgers) but not nearly as fast as say Gambit a low end bullet timer who can dodge individual shots after they are fired

Matt is faster than Gambit, as in swats back multiple rounds fired from point blank range, sometimes from behind with a thin metal club. he reacts to bullets when they are close enough to be seen in his shades

Bullet timers are mod ruled to blitz peak humans(Cap America/ Batman). any showing from a comic contradicting this is not considered actual evidence on Rumbles given how THESE fights contradict consistent character portrayal and presentation over decades in favour of the more popular character

Take Matt vs Steve for eg. Matt from Day 1( first few issues of Stan Lees run) has feats for swatting away bullets and this a speed he has continued to show over the decades since then on a consistent basis , especially more so since Millers upgrade

Cap, since his inception has only been aim dodging for decades on end. him suddenly matching Matts speed is PIS and showings such as the Bucky one where he reacts to a bullet after it is fired are anamalous to the characters presentation over the decades and have been mod ruled as SMvsFL for Cap or any other "peak human"

Skill: Cap has his own collection of pressure point feats but Matts feats are better even if you dont consider the Mr Hyde feat. Matt pressure points through armour that no sells bullets/anti tank fire. he finds weak spots in such armour/ pressure points metas like Hammerhead, pressure points skilled fighters like Frank Castle mid fight

His over collection of nerve strike/speed feats put him above Cap imo

Special Abilities: Cap doesnt tire easily. Matt can body read, has enhanced senses etc. Cap's "not tiring easily" is going to count for nothing against a guy he cant tag

Weapons: Cap has a shield which is more awesome than Matts club. alternatively the guy who has been board ruled to blitz Cap splits his club in half and sticks it in Caps skull faster than he can react

Strength/Durabilty: They both of peak human strength and durability/ damage soak

For Slade, Its mostly the same except hes a little better than Cap in everything

So Matt beats Cap/ slade easy in 1v1. hence its Matt vs Team



After all his bullying and bluster in the "Siege On Avengers Mansion" arc, Cap & Dane easily softened Mr. Hyde up for Wasp & Thor.
as i said even without the Mr Hyde feat, Matts pressure pointing/ helped by his senses detecting weak spots in armour/ people/ his body reading put him above Cap in terms of skill

Hazard
05-02-2014, 07:41 AM
Bullet timers are mod ruled to blitz peak humans

Technically, there are no mod rulings anymore.

But yeah, the guy who can dodge bullets or intercept them with his billy club is faster than the guy who can't do those things.



Additionally, for the new guys who might pop up.

Feats have to be consistent with the character's consistent presentation.

Slade has tagged plenty of speedsters. This is SMvsFL, because Slade's consistent presentation is nowhere near a guy with light speed reflexes and above.

Pendaran
05-02-2014, 01:50 PM
Technically, there are no mod rulings anymore.

But yeah, the guy who can dodge bullets or intercept them with his billy club is faster than the guy who can't do those things.



Additionally, for the new guys who might pop up.

Feats have to be consistent with the character's consistent presentation.

Slade has tagged plenty of speedsters. This is SMvsFL, because Slade's consistent presentation is nowhere near a guy with light speed reflexes and above.

It's also as much that Slade has never on many occasions demonstrated anything like, say, light speed reflexes or beyond despite even having a multi year solo series in which to do so.

Slade1
05-08-2014, 03:03 PM
Daredevil pressure points through armour that no sells tank fire. He pressure points through armour that has just withstood gunshots like nothing. He pressure points metas with durability enough to not even notice gunshots/smashing through concrete/ glass to the point of KOing a Class 50 brick by poking him on the chest


What has any of this have to do with skill??? It's more strength feats than anything else. His fingers are strong enough to push through body armour. That's it.

big_adventure
05-09-2014, 01:34 AM
What has any of this have to do with skill??? It's more strength feats than anything else. His fingers are strong enough to push through body armour. That's it.

Not really, no - in comics, martial artists hit WAY above their strength levels. Cass Cain, all 105 pounds of her, punches through a concrete prison wall. She's strong as hell for a small girl/woman, but her hitting force is an order or more of magnitude above her strength, and that hitting force comes completely from skill. Daredevil hurts pretty decent bricks (hurting folks like Kingpin, Tombstone, many others), pressure-points / penetrates armor that takes tank shells, etc. Dude's strong as hell (using a 400lb barbell as a bo staff, flipping a limo, etc.), but again, that hitting force is MUCH higher still, and is expressly noted in the comics as coming from skill.

And this is well before getting to things like Mantis pressure-pointing Thor, or Karate Kid pressure-pointing geologic fault lines, or all of the Immortal Warriors (Iron Fist & co.) and what they do with training.

Slade1
05-09-2014, 05:56 AM
Not really, no - in comics, martial artists hit WAY above their strength levels. Cass Cain, all 105 pounds of her, punches through a concrete prison wall. She's strong as hell for a small girl/woman, but her hitting force is an order or more of magnitude above her strength, and that hitting force comes completely from skill. Daredevil hurts pretty decent bricks (hurting folks like Kingpin, Tombstone, many others), pressure-points / penetrates armor that takes tank shells, etc. Dude's strong as hell (using a 400lb barbell as a bo staff, flipping a limo, etc.), but again, that hitting force is MUCH higher still, and is expressly noted in the comics as coming from skill.

And this is well before getting to things like Mantis pressure-pointing Thor, or Karate Kid pressure-pointing geologic fault lines, or all of the Immortal Warriors (Iron Fist & co.) and what they do with training.

Good examples, point taken.

Darkness Bane
07-31-2014, 07:15 PM
I have a question and please no one take it the wrong way I'm just asking because I am genuinely curious. Firstly though I would like to state that Daredevil is my favorite superhero but the problem seems to be that I am perceiving him differently than other people, not in the sense that I am overestimating him but apparently underestimating, so if anyone could please help me comprehend what I need to that would be much appreciated. The question is: why is DD considered to be a bullet timer? The reason I ask this is because in all my time reading DD I have mostly seen him aim dodging and due to that I assumed the times that he bullet timed it was either PIS or WIS do to the vast majority of aim dodging. Not only this but in two separate instances I have seen DD actually state that he cannot dodge bullets one being in "Ultimate Marvel Team Up" issue 8 ( I know this is the ultimate universe but it is to my understanding that there were no actual differences between that Daredevil and Earth 616 Daredevil) and one just recently in his relatively new comic series "Daredevil: The Man Without Fear" issue 31 I believe, and when its stated so bluntly by two different writers in different periods of time and one being just recently I would assume it isn't WIS and just the writers or creators of Daredevil trying to clear up what his actual abilities and limitations are. So please can anyone clarify this doubt for me? so I that I may and can better appreciate the character.

Pendaran
07-31-2014, 07:19 PM
Not only this but in two separate instances I have seen DD actually state that he cannot dodge bullets one being in "Ultimate Marvel Team Up" issue 8 ( I know this is the ultimate universe but it is to my understanding that there were no actual differences between that Daredevil and Earth 616 Daredevil)

Attempting to make claims about one character, based on a character from a completely separate universe, doesn't fly. It would be like trying to argue someone's capacity based on a What If.

Also, for this you both made an account and revived a thread this many months old?

Matt the Manly
07-31-2014, 07:23 PM
Nor does saying " character x says he cant dodge bullets" and then adding "but i think he is an aim dodger, however for some reason he is not a bullet timer"

Darkness Bane
07-31-2014, 07:32 PM
Attempting to make claims about one character, based on a character from a completely separate universe, doesn't fly. It would be like trying to argue someone's capacity based on a What If.

Also, for this you both made an account and revived a thread this many months old?

Like I said the DD of the ultimate's universe had no differences from the one in 616 but if you would like to disregard that or it isn't allowed that is fine we still have the same statement from the DD from the 616 just recently and his tendency to aim dodge, so since you're a senior member could you please help me with my doubt. Also Ive had this account for about a year I just had it renewed, per-say, some months ago for a question similar to this and I apologize if posting the question on this thread was bothersome but I don't use this account often so I don't know were to ask the question or how and asking it in a thread, which compared to others that are revived (this one being only months old not years) was recent, were DD is involved and were I need accurate information to better determine his probabilities of winning in the scenario stated seemed like a good place to ask the question.

Darkness Bane
07-31-2014, 07:36 PM
Nor does saying " character x says he cant dodge bullets" and then adding "but i think he is an aim dodger, however for some reason he is not a bullet timer"

I'm not trying to make an argument as to why he IS an aim dodger I just would like someone to clarify to me without the shadow of the doubt that he IS a bullet timer however if even though you state that he is such (a bullet timer) but you feel that you cant or dont want to prove or show me that he is that is fine but if you could find the time to do that would be much appreciated as I just want to be on the same page as everybody else.

Matt the Manly
07-31-2014, 07:44 PM
I'm not trying to make an argument as to why he IS an aim dodger I just would like someone to clarify to me without the shadow of the doubt that he IS a bullet timer however if even though you state that he is such (a bullet timer) but you feel that you cant or dont want to prove or show me that he is that is fine but if you could find the time to that would be much appreciated as I just want to be on the same page as everybody else.
Daredevil is a bullet timer because he has done it several times, over an extended period of time. In fact as early as his 2nd or 3rd appearance , the dude came up with a bullet timing feat. This was how the character was presented originally, and has since backed up this original showing with several others. Besides being shown to be fast enough to react to bullets when they are close enough to be seen in his shades, Daredevil has other feats such as treating Captain America as something of a joke speedwise, and easily handling Logan both times they faced off. When he is doing what he is doing against peak humans, when he is reacting the way he is reacting to bullets, when other people with the same kind of training have similar feats( Elektra) , when this is how they have been presented from the earliest appearances, its hard to see why Daredevil should not be a bullet timer


As for his aim dodging stuff, the board goes by high end consistent feats. Sure he has aim dodged but he has also bullet timed enough times by the boards' standards to consider that as a regular, high end feat for him.


Its like arguing that Superman lifts cars more times than he lifts mountains. Sure thats true but thats not a consistent high end showing for him. We take the higher showings of characters here

Darkness Bane
07-31-2014, 07:53 PM
Daredevil is a bullet timer because he has done it several times, over an extended period of time. In fact as early as his 2nd or 3rd appearance , the dude came up with a bullet timing feat. This was how the character was presented originally, and has since backed up this original showing with several others. Besides being shown to be fast enough to react to bullets when they are close enough to be seen in his shades, Daredevil has other feats such as treating Captain America as something of a joke speedwise, and easily handling Logan both times they faced off. When he is doing what he is doing against peak humans, when he is reacting the way he is reacting to bullets, when other people with the same kind of training have similar feats( Elektra) , when this is how they have been presented from the earliest appearances, its hard to see why Daredevil should not be a bullet timer


As for his aim dodging stuff, the board goes by high end consistent feats. Sure he has aim dodged but he has also bullet timed enough times by the boards' standards to consider that as a regular, high end feat for him.


Its like arguing that Superman lifts cars more times than he lifts mountains. Sure thats true but thats not a consistent high end showing for him. We take the higher showings of characters here

Yes I know to which feat you are referring to, when he deflected a bullet correct? Well then thanks for taking the time to answer. So I guess I should take different writters interpretations of the character with a grain of salt like when they make him say something that goes against feats previously shown. Also I guess I always assumed his bullet timing feats were more do to him already knowing the bullet is going to be shot due to his radar sense and moving away ahead of time which I would consider not to be bullet timing since it wasn't a matter of speed but anticipation.

Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh
07-31-2014, 08:01 PM
His Radar sense isn't pre-cog. Besides the bullet swatting feats, he's also done things like Dodge a sniper round seconds before it slams through the window he's standing of front of.

It grazes his face, sure. But if he had reacted a fraction of a second slower, he'd be painting the walls with his brain.

Darkness Bane
07-31-2014, 08:04 PM
So just for the sake of clarification its mostly a case of consistency and what that characters capabilities were intended to be from when he was first introduced. For example Batman has bullet timed before but hasn't done it enough times to be considered canon or not PIS and when he was originally introduced he didn't bullet time just aim dodge.

Pendaran
07-31-2014, 08:29 PM
So just for the sake of clarification its mostly a case of consistency and what that characters capabilities were intended to be from when he was first introduced. For example Batman has bullet timed before but hasn't done it enough times to be considered canon or not PIS and when he was originally introduced he didn't bullet time just aim dodge.

It's a case of relative high end consistency and the character's overall presentation, generally. Things like what they did when first introduced help, but not always. Things are weighed on a case by case basis. You seem to be trying to ground something to let you say something else, frankly.

While we're there, an issue where Daredevil spends some of it being put off his game by excessive sensory input and is having to swing on a line while carrying a guy somewhat bigger than he is, is a dubious sort of issue for putting much stock in Matt talking about how he can't dodge bullets.

The Drunkard Kid
07-31-2014, 08:45 PM
Cap is an aim dodger. Aim dodgers are people who dodge the aim of the shooter, that is, they outreact the shooter and not the bullet itself, which is pretty impressive given they are usually facing multiple shooters in confined spaces. but they are still outreacting only human movement, which fast as it is, is an absolute joke compared to the speed of an actual bullet once it has left the barell

Deathstroke is a ringer, a person who lies between bullet timer and aim dodger. he is SLIGHTLY faster than Batman/Cap (peak human aim dodgers) but not nearly as fast as say Gambit a low end bullet timer who can dodge individual shots after they are fired

Matt is faster than Gambit, as in swats back multiple rounds fired from point blank range, sometimes from behind with a thin metal club. he reacts to bullets when they are close enough to be seen in his shades


Point: I'm pretty sure that Gambit also swats gunfire with a thin metal staff, and I know he's caught and returned RPG fire in one smooth movement.



http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/110710/2162276-863074-catch_super.jpg

This last one is generic energy blasts rather than gunfire, though, but still pretty neat:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/39001/1457386-gambit1.jpg

Matt the Manly
07-31-2014, 08:46 PM
Yes I know to which feat you are referring to, when he deflected a bullet correct? Well then thanks for taking the time to answer. So I guess I should take different writters interpretations of the character with a grain of salt like when they make him say something that goes against feats previously shown. Also I guess I always assumed his bullet timing feats were more do to him already knowing the bullet is going to be shot due to his radar sense and moving away ahead of time which I would consider not to be bullet timing since it wasn't a matter of speed but anticipation.

About the writers thing. Daredevil has been a character for 60 years now. Any number of writers have written him in this time period. So we cant really judge the character by how one writer has written him, but rather by the overall consistency of feats shown by the character in this time period. Same for any character really

As for the bullet timing thing, Daredevil has feats like starting to move when the bullet is close enough to be seen in his shades. he has turned around and swung a bullet fired from behind him on a day his senses are specifically messed up, with enough accuracy to not kill the guy who just shot him.

Thats him reacting to a bullet. Even if he could guess where the bullet was heading, with his senses , he still needs to react with enough precision to connect accurately enough with a thin metal club to the point of directing the bullet to a non fatal( or fatal, in the case of Man without fear) area of the person shooting him


Any number of street levellers can guess the aim of the shooter and dodge. only few have actually reacted to shots after they were fired. thats what separtes the bullet timers from the rest. the fact that they can actually react to bullets after they have been fired kinda negates the fact of whether they might or might not have guessed the aim of the shooter

Darkness Bane
07-31-2014, 09:07 PM
It's a case of relative high end consistency and the character's overall presentation, generally. Things like what they did when first introduced help, but not always. Things are weighed on a case by case basis. You seem to be trying to ground something to let you say something else, frankly.

While we're there, an issue where Daredevil spends some of it being put off his game by excessive sensory input and is having to swing on a line while carrying a guy somewhat bigger than he is, is a dubious sort of issue for putting much stock in Matt talking about how he can't dodge bullets.

I'm not trying to do anything other than to understand, as everyone else has, a character's capabilities and why it is that he is said or understood to have these capabilities and do to Matt the Manly's help I have been able to do so as seen in my next to last comment were I showed my understanding of such and thanked Matt for his help. My last post was intended to help me be able to take the shared input of those who would decide to reply to it and use it to better further my comic book knowledge in other words be able to use what I have learned here to better judge comic book situations and character abilities in the future depending on what the consensus is for said situations and characters. Secondly I believe DD wasn't suffering from the handicaps you mentioned when he made his statement but even if he did it was a statement of his abilities ( which thanks to Manly I have come to realize is totally false) and doesn't matter in which situation he is in he was out right saying he couldn't dodge bullets (again this being erroneous of course). You seem to be rather hostile of me ever since I started posting questioning my reasons to post and make an account or my need to clarify my doubts and I am sorry if I have given you any indication that would lead you to believe I was asking these question with an ulterior motive but as I said DD is my favorite superhero I just wanted to understand him better as everyone else did, your response to my last comment would have sufficed at the first sentence you wrote as it answered or responded to my last post but again thank you anyways for trying to clarify any doubts I had or you may have thought i had I feel like I have gotten the answers and clarifications I needed from everyone that responded. However, and I only ask this because you seemed aggravated about it earlier, if I were to have another question like this again where in the forum do I ask it so I wont have to revive already closed threads?


About the writers thing. Daredevil has been a character for 60 years now. Any number of writers have written him in this time period. So we cant really judge the character by how one writer has written him, but rather by the overall consistency of feats shown by the character in this time period. Same for any character really

As for the bullet timing thing, Daredevil has feats like starting to move when the bullet is close enough to be seen in his shades. he has turned around and swung a bullet fired from behind him on a day his senses are specifically messed up, with enough accuracy to not kill the guy who just shot him.

Thats him reacting to a bullet. Even if he could guess where the bullet was heading, with his senses , he still needs to react with enough precision to connect accurately enough with a thin metal club to the point of directing the bullet to a non fatal( or fatal, in the case of Man without fear) area of the person shooting him


Any number of street levellers can guess the aim of the shooter and dodge. only few have actually reacted to shots after they were fired. thats what separtes the bullet timers from the rest. the fact that they can actually react to bullets after they have been fired kinda negates the fact of whether they might or might not have guessed the aim of the shooter

Well then thanks, I suppose I was unaware of his high end bullet dodging consistency feats it is reassuring to know that my favorite superhero is even better than I previously thought him to be thank you for clarifying my doubts.

Pendaran
07-31-2014, 09:10 PM
Secondly I believe DD wasn't suffering from the handicaps you mentioned when he made his statement

He says it while he is swinging through the air, with the dude hanging off of him, I wouldn't think Daredevil could dodge bullets particularly well in that situation either.


However, and I only ask this because you seemed aggravated about it earlier, if I were to have another question like this again where in the forum do I ask it so I wont have to revive already closed threads?


You could always make a new thread.


Well then thanks, I suppose I was unaware of his high end bullet dodging consistency feats it is reassuring to know that my favorite superhero is even better than I previously thought him to be thank you for clarifying my doubts.

In this case, it has as much to do with that the issues you cite against such things involve 1) A completely different character and 2) A performance that is highly dubious to feel matters for anything due to situational factors.

Darkness Bane
07-31-2014, 09:15 PM
He says it while he is swinging through the air, with the dude hanging off of him, I wouldn't think Daredevil could dodge bullets particularly well in that situation either.
You could always make a new thread.

So you're saying he was probably referring to his capabilities in that particular moment? I'd have to re-read the issue to verify if I misinterpreted what he meant but I suppose its possible although again I believe that if he was referring to his capabilities in general (although he was wrong) then the situation does not mater (no mater how dubious) as he did not state " I cannot do x because of the current situation I am in" rather he said "I cant do x period." To make a new thread I just go to an already existing one and click reply to thread right or am I mistaken?

Pendaran
07-31-2014, 10:04 PM
There's a bright orange button at the top of the main rumbles forum page called "post new thread" You click on that.

I am otherwise saying that in an issue where Daredevil talks about his capacity where he is impaired one way or another is an issue that is perhaps difficult to take seriously as supporting statements made in it. Particularly when ontop of everything else, despite his own words no less, he is swinging away while the cops are unloading on him and only managing to hit air. Let us simply say that saying this issue is some clean demonstration of a thing does not work.

Darkness Bane
07-31-2014, 10:08 PM
There's a bright orange button at the top of the main rumbles forum page called "post new thread" You click on that.

I am otherwise saying that in an issue where Daredevil talks about his capacity where he is impaired one way or another is an issue that is perhaps difficult to take seriously as supporting statements made in it. Particularly when ontop of everything else, despite his own words no less, he is swinging away while the cops are unloading on him and only managing to hit air. Let us simply say that saying this issue is some clean demonstration of a thing does not work.

Thanks and point taken

big_adventure
07-31-2014, 11:43 PM
So you're saying he was probably referring to his capabilities in that particular moment? I'd have to re-read the issue to verify if I misinterpreted what he meant but I suppose its possible although again I believe that if he was referring to his capabilities in general (although he was wrong) then the situation does not mater (no mater how dubious) as he did not state " I cannot do x because of the current situation I am in" rather he said "I cant do x period." To make a new thread I just go to an already existing one and click reply to thread right or am I mistaken?

To go a bit further - characters and general narrative say things all the time that aren't accurate representations of their own abilities (or of someone else's). That's why we go by feats. Certain Flash versions saying "...almost the speed of light" then moving so ridiculously faster than that to accomplish what is shown on panel, just for example.

Daredevil has bunches of pure bullet-timing feats over the years, supported by stupid amounts of "dancing through multiple machine-guns without a scratch", and nothing that contradicts that status except for one character statement that is foolishly dubious, since even in the same issue, he's shown doing something not all that far from dodging bullets while carrying a dude bigger than he is.

Alias
08-04-2014, 07:17 AM
Regarding the original topic, Deathstroke's actually faster than Cassandra Cain, at-least according to one Cassandra Cain. In case you're tempted to instinctively claim jobbing or PIS, consider that she was actually bullet-timing in that fight. It may or may not have been consistent with his overall portrayal, but it certainly wasn't a case of downplaying one party's abilities to highlight the other's.

Likewise, naturally, with Shiva. She may not necessarily have been faster, or even quite her equal, but she was still fast enough that Batgirl was specifically impressed with her speed the very first time they met, and good enough that for the first two years or so of her title, it was considered literally impossible for Cass to beat her without some form of shenanigans. Of-course, in Shiva's case things do get a little murkier; you'd be hard-pressed, for instance, to come-up with much of anything that would suggest she shared Batgirl's body-reading skills outside the latter's book. It may be a matter of weighing whether her history with Batgirl is significant enough to be considered a legitimate (and therefore, by default, our) portrayal of the character.

If it isn't quite obvious, I think Daredevil loses horribly here. Matt's good and everything, but not nearly this good.

Matt the Manly
08-04-2014, 08:45 AM
Cass Cain has never bullet timed in any of her 3 fights vs Slade as far as I know

Yes she does have that particularly impressive aim dodge at point blank range in that fight where she owned Slade with all of one hand despite him having the drop on her and that gun too obviously.

Their subsequent fight chose to completely ignore this instance. Cass still won but sprouted a lot og BS midfight about Slade toying with her
Their third fight had Slade explicitly noting he couldn't beat her in a straight fight. So...

In any case if Cass is bullet timing in a fight vs Slade and Slade is not/ has only one maaybe instance of bullet timing in his career.....why do you feel Cass losing the guy not as fast as her is anything but PIS?

Or to put it another way, if Wally west is moving fast enough to avoid bombs exploding at his feet yet manages to impale himself on Slades sword, how is that anything but Slades spectacular jobbing aura?

Shiva sure was moving pretty fast in that fight where Cass didn't have any defence to speak of, sure

Otherwise Cass has beaten her in a couple of pages with no hamdicaps

Also same for Shiva as Slade. If she doesn't have any bullet time feats, why is she a challenge for Cass

Matt may lose this one, but he is certainly faster than anyone here

Matt the Manly
08-04-2014, 09:11 AM
. It may or may not have been consistent with his overall portrayal, but it certainly wasn't a case of downplaying one party's abilities to highlight the other's.
.
If it is not consistent with his portrayal , how is not a case of downplaying one party's abilities to highlight the other's.?

Pendaran
08-04-2014, 09:22 AM
Regarding the original topic, Deathstroke's actually faster than Cassandra Cain, at-least according to one Cassandra Cain. In case you're tempted to instinctively claim jobbing or PIS, consider that she was actually bullet-timing in that fight. It may or may not have been consistent with his overall portrayal, but it certainly wasn't a case of downplaying one party's abilities to highlight the other's.


Considering how their first fight went, sure it was.

The Drunkard Kid
08-04-2014, 10:25 AM
Otherwise Cass has beaten her in a couple of pages with no hamdicaps



... Anyone else imagining Cassandra Cain battling Lady Shiva while wearing a pig mascot costume?

Daenarys Stormborn
08-04-2014, 11:22 AM
So...how faster in terms are we saying Matt is compared to these guys? I don't mean bt vs ringer, but just in terms of 2,3,4, or 5 times faster?

big_adventure
08-04-2014, 11:49 AM
... Anyone else imagining Cassandra Cain battling Lady Shiva while wearing a pig mascot costume?

I do so, daily. It's my thing.

Alias
08-10-2014, 06:57 AM
Right. Sorry for taking this long to get back to this, I have a bit of difficulty typing anything much longer than a sentence at the moment, and, honestly, largely lost interest in this after starting to respond a couple of times.

At any rate, here's the 'bullet-timing' I referred to earlier:
http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag252/LeftHandofGog/Batgirl63p18cropped_zps4b020eea.jpg (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/LeftHandofGog/media/Batgirl63p18cropped_zps4b020eea.jpg.html)

Not the most visually striking example of such to be sure, in part probably due to the coloring, but ask yourself how else you can reasonably interpret it if you're sketchy. In both intention and execution, I find it clear enough to qualify, and not the worst feat of its kind, besides.

If anyone's still terribly interested in covering the rest, we could probably do that. Otherwise I just thought this was significant enough to be worth posting.

Pendaran
08-10-2014, 07:47 AM
Otherwise I just thought this was significant enough to be worth posting.

It's a scan from a fight that disregards how their first fight went, it's not. Nor does it grant Slade bullet timing reflexes because the other person in the fight has them.

Alias
08-10-2014, 09:34 AM
It's a scan from a fight that disregards how their first fight went, it's not.

I have no idea what it is about this particular argument you find so compelling. Comics contradict each other all the time, "Deathstroke can't be faster because Deathstroke is actually slower" is so circular a line it borders on being a tautology. It adds absolutely nothing of substance to a discussion on its own.

But less polemically, I don't actually agree there is such a stark contradiction between both fights, primarily because I find little that's definitive about their first fight, which was a fairly standard comic altercation that did not in fact resolve itself to any sort of meaningful conclusion, nor did either party at any point appear to be particularly exerting themselves. (That it ended in a manner which was stupid when you dwell on it all is largely besides the point, nor - sadly - all that that unusual.) She certainly comes out of it looking good, but not so good believing she might lose the next time was that difficult.

It does, quite obviously, clash severely with their third fight, but even then, I'm not sure the latter necessarily contradicts anything that transpired earlier outright (the spirit of it, certainly, but not so much the bare facts, of which Batgirl's statements are a part.)

If observing the technicalities's your thing, I should point-out Wilson did have a status-shift of sorts in between these fights, rather than simply going on the warpath in time for Infinity Crisis. Namely, he was no longer under the control of Jericho. Whether or not that's something anyone at all but Jones still cared about this at the time, or in-fact should do so now, is another matter, but people's standards do tend to vary on this sort of thing.


Nor does it grant Slade bullet timing reflexes because the other person in the fight has them.

No, it grants him superior reflexes because the other person - one of the foremost experts in the field - specifically states he's faster. Whether or not you choose to accept that in a wider context is, naturally enough, entirely up to you. Deathstroke possessing enhanced reflexes of some description crops-up often enough that I don't personally feel the need to immediately dismiss it when a writer who respects the other character (and it would be insane to suggest Andersen Gabrych didn't recognize Batgirl's own abilities, in this fight or in general) makes a direct comparison between them. Nor do I feel she must necessarily be quicker than a given character to lend-off that impression - that's essentially what she'd been trained for, after all.

Alias
08-10-2014, 09:41 AM
Deathstroke, incidentally, is hardly the only reason I posted the above. Matt, for one, didn't seem to register it at-all, and I doubt he's the only one. As a relatively simple matter involving a character (Cassandra Cain) I care infinitely more about than Wilson, I still wanted to post the scan.

Matt the Manly
08-10-2014, 09:44 AM
So is Deathstroke faster than Wally West too? Because " one of the foremost experts in the field" has also blatantly stated " Slade is faster than Wally where it counts"

Matt the Manly
08-10-2014, 09:50 AM
Deathstroke, incidentally, is hardly the only reason I posted the above. Matt, for one, didn't seem to register it at-all, and I doubt he's the only one. As a relatively simple matter involving a character (Cassandra Cain) I care infinitely more about than Wilson, I still wanted to post the scan.

No I don't remember seeing this. Where is this from?

Besides it in no way contradicts anything I have said earlier , the gist being "Slade is not a bullet timer, and Cass is"

Matt the Manly
08-10-2014, 10:05 AM
I have no idea what it is about this particular argument you find so compelling. Comics contradict each other all the time, "Deathstroke can't be faster because Deathstroke is actually slower" is so circular a line it borders on being a tautology. It adds absolutely nothing of substance to a discussion on its own.

No Deathstroke is slower because, inspite of being active as a character for 20+ years, and having his own 4 year long series, the dude has maaybee one bullet time feat in his career. Throughout his career , he is shown to be the equal speedwise of the likes of Bruce Wayne and even Dick Grayson. The fact that he tags Flashes or Bullet timers , in no way changes the fact that he has no bullet time/ FTL feats of his own outside these fights/ only fights mostly evenly with peak humans( Bruce) and when weaker , loses to them ( Bronze Tiger/ Azrael)


So when Slades first fight against a person who treats Batman as a joke, goes the way it does, the other fights seem wildly out of character for both. Well not the last one really where Slade notes that the only way he can beat her is by getting inside her head


But less polemically, I don't actually agree there is such a stark contradiction between both fights, primarily because I find little that's definitive about their first fight, which was a fairly standard comic altercation that did not in fact resolve itself to any sort of meaningful conclusion, nor did either party at any point appear to be particularly exerting themselves. (That it ended in a manner which was stupid when you dwell on it all is largely besides the point, nor - sadly - all that that unusual.) She certainly comes out of it looking good, but not so good believing she might lose the next time was that difficult.
Their first fight ended with Slade despite having the drop on her, despite pulling out a gun, despite her fighting with one hand, having to drop a grenade and flee, having landed zero hits on her

This being a contract of several thousand dollars that he bails out on rather than fighting her, when later in the same arc he notes hes willing to kill Nightwing for the same


It does, quite obviously, clash severely with their third fight, but even then, I'm not sure the latter necessarily contradicts anything that transpired earlier outright (the spirit of it, certainly, but not so much the bare facts, of which Batgirl's statements are a part.)
Statements don't matter here. Feats do.
And as far as I know the third, brief scuffle ended with Slade noting he couldn't beat her in a straight fight/ fighting her with weights before they were interrupted


If observing the technicalities's your thing, I should point-out Wilson did have a status-shift of sorts in between these fights, rather than simply going on the warpath in time for Infinity Crisis. Namely, he was no longer under the control of Jericho. Whether or not that's something anyone at all but Jones still cared about this at the time, or in-fact should do so now, is another matter, but people's standards do tend to vary on this sort of thing.
He was under the control of jericho in Nightwing 81 or whatever that issue was?




No, it grants him superior reflexes because the other person - one of the foremost experts in the field - specifically states he's faster. Whether or not you choose to accept that in a wider context is, naturally enough, entirely up to you.
Oliver Queen. Wally West. Identity Crisis. I believe you know what im talking about


Deathstroke possessing enhanced reflexes of some description crops-up often enough that I don't personally feel the need to immediately dismiss it when a writer who respects the other character (and it would be insane to suggest Andersen Gabrych didn't recognize Batgirl's own abilities, in this fight or in general) makes a direct comparison between them. Nor do I feel she must necessarily be quicker than a given character to lend-off that impression - that's essentially what she'd been trained for, after all.
Deathstroke's enhanced reflexes over an entire career/ including a solo run tops out at peak human or just beyond outside of the times he lays the snackdown on lightspeeders/ bullet timers and heck Batman does that too, if thats your argument

Alias
08-10-2014, 10:34 AM
So is Deathstroke faster than Wally West too? Because " one of the foremost experts in the field" has also blatantly stated " Slade is faster than Wally where it counts"

Ha. Other than being a rather snazzy reply, I'm not actually certain where that's from (Green Arrow in Identity Crisis?), so I'll default to generalities and your similar comment on the last page and say one obvious difference is that your statement makes no logical sense at all -- Slade Wilson isn't faster than Wally West in any shape, sense, or form, and I suspect even your quote wasn't seriously attempting to suggest otherwise in any literal sense, but rather to excuse him tagging the latter in some fashion. In contrast, Batgirl's second fight with Deathstroke made it clear he had an actual physical edge all around. Even if we ultimately choose to disregard it altogether in the greater scheme of things, that was their actual dynamic in this particular storyline, and that makes it a whole lot easier to take seriously, particularly if, as I've mentioned, she was being written competently on herself (Batgirl's greatest attributes being fairly ridiculous speed and her particular set of skills, all of which were being observed during this bout and the subsequent Ravager fight, mostly at length). Put simply, it was Deathstroke written up, rather than Batgirl being dumbed down, and that does make at-least some difference when you analyze a fight.

Now, if it is Green Arrow, I'd point-out quickly he was neither an active party in that conversation nor quite the authority on super-speed that Batgirl is on hth combat.

Hiromi
08-10-2014, 10:39 AM
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/4/41224/1787038-deathstrokeflash.jpg

I'll go for the easier example, because it's listed specifically in the rules
Is the Ten Eyed Man the most dangerous man alive? Batman said he was in those specific words.

Matt the Manly
08-10-2014, 10:41 AM
Ha. Other than being a rather snazzy reply, I'm not actually certain where that's from (Green Arrow in Identity Crisis?), so I'll default to generalities and your similar comment on the last page and say one obvious difference is that your statement makes no logical sense at all -- Slade Wilson isn't faster than Wally West in any shape, sense, or form, and I suspect even your quote wasn't seriously attempting to suggest otherwise in any literal sense, but rather to excuse him tagging the latter in some fashion. In contrast, Batgirl's second fight with Deathstroke made it clear he had an actual physical edge all around. Even if we ultimately choose to disregard it altogether in the greater scheme of things, that was their actual dynamic in this particular storyline, and that makes it a whole lot easier to take seriously, particularly if, as I've mentioned, she was being written competently on herself (Batgirl's greatest attributes being fairly ridiculous speed and her particular set of skills, all of which were being observed during this bout and the subsequent Ravager fight, mostly at length). Put simply, it was Deathstroke written up, rather than Batgirl being dumbed down, and that does make at-least some difference when you analyze a fight.

Now, if it is Green Arrow, I'd point-out quickly he was neither an active party in that conversation nor quite the authority on super-speed that Batgirl is on hth combat.

Now you are ignoring your own logic

If Batgirl is slower than Slade because shes " one of the foremost experts in the field" and is noting so, why exactly are you disregarding Oliver Queens statements in spite of him being one of the foremost street levelles in DC, especially since Slade then proceeded to impale Wally as.....opposed to his own sword being turned on him by the apparently "slower" Cass

Alias
08-10-2014, 11:33 AM
Now you are ignoring your own logic

If Batgirl is slower than Slade because shes " one of the foremost experts in the field" and is noting so, why exactly are you disregarding Oliver Queens statements in spite of him being one of the foremost street levelles in DC, especially since Slade then proceeded to impale Wally as.....opposed to his own sword being turned on him by the apparently "slower" Cass

I'm really not. As the scan above shows, Green Arrow wasn't even really talking about speed per se so much as suggesting Slade is smarter, which makes no sense at all in so far as explaining how that makes him capable of stabbing the Flash in broad daylight, let alone how Ollie's even capable of clearly registering either if it does. The one is a simple statement of fact. The other is a slightly convoluted explanation.


I'll go for the easier example, because it's listed specifically in the rules
Is the Ten Eyed Man the most dangerous man alive? Batman said he was in those specific words.

You may want to note the rule you're citing's listed under Narrative Hyperbole though, and with good cause. Whatever's your stance on it in general, Batgirl's clearly not indulging in hyperbole when she makes these comments; there's every indication in the story she is accurately describing the circumstances of a fight in which she's ostensibly going strong but in reality being systematically herded towards facing Deathstroke's daughter in a locale to the Wilsons' choosing.

Hiromi
08-10-2014, 11:44 AM
I dunno, if she declares a character faster than her in a fight where he doesn't actually moves faster than her, sounds pretty hyperbolish to me.

Matt the Manly
08-10-2014, 12:10 PM
I'm really not. As the scan above shows, Green Arrow wasn't even really talking about speed per se so much as suggesting Slade is smarter,
You are now arguing that Green Arrow isn't talking about speed when he says " Wally is the first to react" before proceeding to describe Wallys movements following that right up to the moment Slade outreacts him " where it matters most"


which makes no sense at all in so far as explaining how that makes him capable of stabbing the Flash in broad daylight,
The explanation as such, is Slade diverting Wally into a path which he has prepared for him, and being fast enough to stab Wally ( who is moving fast enough to avoid explosives , even as they go off at his feet, it must be noted), when Wally is travelling in more or less a straight path( notice he raises his sword well after Wally has started moving)

The problem with that is Wally has feats for his superspeed kicking in from a standstill when bullets have already reached his neck and such. The writer was suggesting that Slade is faster at this than Wally West, fast enough that if he caught him by surprise he could stab him


let alone how Ollie's even capable of clearly registering either if it does.
Oliver was noting that entire thing in hindsight upto and including his failure to react to most of the events occurring around him/ including Slade easily dodging his own arrows as he shot them


The one is a simple statement of fact.
So the fight where Slade has his own sword turned on him is some sort of proof of Slade being faster than Cass... in fact you say its a fact?


The other is a slightly convoluted explanation.
Oliver blatantly stating Slade is faster than Wally even as he stabs him ...is a " convulated explanation"?




You may want to note the rule you're citing's listed under Narrative Hyperbole though, and with good cause. Whatever's your stance on it in general, Batgirl's clearly not indulging in hyperbole when she makes these comments; there's every indication in the story she is accurately describing the circumstances of a fight in which she's ostensibly going strong but in reality being systematically herded towards facing Deathstroke's daughter in a locale to the Wilsons' choosing.
A fight that ignores both the one that came before and after it as well as an entire career worth of feats is somehow proof enough for you for Slade being faster?

Heck let me ask you this. Batman one shotted Slade in the very issue Slade kept owning him upto that point.

By your logic, Is Batman> Slade now?

Alias
08-10-2014, 12:20 PM
I dunno, if she declares a character faster than her in a fight where he doesn't actually moves faster than her, sounds pretty hyperbolish to me.

He actually does take his sword back once the Ravager shows up with what basically amounted to a "yoink", though to be fair Batgirl was at-least slightly distracted at that point. (Later on I believe he does similarly to Rose, grabbing her blade with one hand when she strikes at him in the dark). I can understand being dubious of his speed in general, or noting the seeming incongruity between words and actions as a way of reconciling their various interactions (or simply the bulk of his history), but acting as though the story itself didn't treat her as being at a disadvantage strikes me as being just a little bit disingenuous, and ultimately that is what I feel we should be looking at first before moving on to broader generalizations.

Matt the Manly
08-10-2014, 12:20 PM
And since this entire argument rests on " Batgirl said that one time Slades faster than her", here's Slade Wilson on the only two ways to beat Batgirl
http://s915.photobucket.com/user/Deathstroke91/media/batgirl004-12.jpg.html?src=wap

Matt the Manly
08-10-2014, 12:25 PM
He actually does take his sword back once the Ravager shows up with what basically amounted to a "yoink", though to be fair Batgirl was at-least slightly distracted at that point. (Later on I believe he does similarly to Rose, grabbing her blade with one hand when she strikes at him in the dark). I can understand being dubious of his speed in general, or noting the seeming incongruity between words and actions as a way of reconciling their various interactions (or simply the bulk of his history), but acting as though the story itself didn't treat her as being at a disadvantage strikes me as being just a little bit disingenuous, and ultimately that is what I feel we should be looking at first before moving on to broader generalizations.


One story treating her as being at a disadvantage ignores a careers worth of feats for either charater, and consistency ultimately is the main factor behind this boards treatment of feats( for all characters)

That being said, the story by itself showed Cass being fast enough to turn Slades own sword on him so anything else she said......is ambiguous to say the least