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Bullet Sniper
06-17-2014, 01:13 PM
Cinema's greatest boxer portrayed by Sylvester Stallone goes up against the Galveston Giant, Arthur John Johnson, as I have read is the first black world heavyweight champion.

Don't know too much about boxing and i'm kinda too busy and lazy to think up of other better match-ups at the moment.

Who wins?

byc
06-17-2014, 01:20 PM
You do realize that Rocky is not human right? He's definitely a meta considering his face and head can take a 2100 lb punch from Drago repeatedly...after at least 5+ years of beatings from Apollo (twice), Clubber Lang, and even the not-so great ones during his 10 match defense streak between Rocky 1 and 2.

So mega stomp by Rocky 10/10.

Bullet Sniper
06-17-2014, 01:22 PM
You do realize that Rocky is not human right? He's definitely a meta considering his face and head can take a 2100 lb punch from Drago repeatedly...after at least 5+ years of beatings from Apollo (twice), Clubber Lang, and even the not-so great ones during his 10 match defense streak between Rocky 1 and 2.

So mega stomp by Rocky 10/10.

awwwwww...... did I make a curbstomp match by accident? :/

what if it was just Rocky from the first movie or the sixth movie when he's old and no longer in his prime?

byc
06-17-2014, 02:08 PM
awwwwww...... did I make a curbstomp match by accident? :/

If you saw Rocky 4, then you either forgot for ignored it. It was really insane. The movie basically implies impossible durability and stamina. If real humans were fighting in that fight, they'd be either dead or somebody would have thrown in the towel long ago. Ivan Drago LITERALLY punched Apollo Creed to death earlier in the movie.


what if it was just Rocky from the first movie or the sixth movie when he's old and no longer in his prime?

I know very little about Jack Johnson. I know about Joe Louis more (doesn't everybody?). Based on the limited information I have, it seems like he would still dominate Rocky. Rocky was a tough fighter that wasn't very skilled. But it took PIS for Rocky to come even that close to beating Apollo in the 1st movie. Rocky 2 is my favorite of the movies, but it was PIS filled of course. Undiscovered gems just don't beat the world champions. Rocky was a club fighter, the type that shows up Friday night and Saturday night to fill an undercard. For Rocky to fight the fight of his life (TWICE!) to lose to the champ, and then in the rematch, defeat the champion is simply impossible.

Great movie, impossible scenario.

Bullet Sniper
06-17-2014, 02:18 PM
was hoping someone here would give me info on this jack johnson guy and tell me how he fares against a non-prime Rocky.

byc
06-17-2014, 02:38 PM
If you saw Rocky 4, then you either forgot for ignored it. It was really insane. The movie basically implies impossible durability and stamina. If real humans were fighting in that fight, they'd be either dead or somebody would have thrown in the towel long ago. Ivan Drago LITERALLY punched Apollo Creed to death earlier in the movie.



I know very little about Jack Johnson. I know about Joe Louis more (doesn't everybody?). Based on the limited information I have, it seems like he would still dominate Rocky. Rocky was a tough fighter that wasn't very skilled. But it took PIS for Rocky to come even that close to beating Apollo in the 1st movie. Rocky 2 is my favorite of the movies, but it was PIS filled of course. Undiscovered gems just don't beat the world champions. Rocky was a club fighter, the type that shows up Friday night and Saturday night to fill an undercard. For Rocky to fight the fight of his life (TWICE!) to lose to the champ, and then in the rematch, defeat the champion is simply impossible.

Great movie, impossible scenario.

I already answered the question.

Bullet Sniper
06-17-2014, 02:52 PM
I already answered the question.

thanks.

isn't it entertaining to see a movie boxer go up against a real-life boxer on the rumbles?

Powerboy
06-17-2014, 03:39 PM
Yeah, unfortunately, this is a great real life boxer versus a superhuman movie boxer with impossible levels of damage soak.

Powerboy
06-17-2014, 03:50 PM
was hoping someone here would give me info on this jack johnson guy and tell me how he fares against a non-prime Rocky.

Well, in the day, nobody would give him a title shot because they didn't want a black champion. When Jim Jeffries retired, he named a guy named Marvin Hart as his successor which he really had no legal authority to do but it was accepted. Hart then lost to Tommy Burns. Burns was notable for being the smallest (weight and height) heavyweight champion ever (to this day, I think). But more because he was the first who would give a title shot to a black man because he knew Johnson was rightfully the number one contender. Johnson beat him easily and reigned undefeated. They tried everything to unseat him. Nobody could do it in the ring. They tried convicting him of the Mann Act which I think had something to do with a black man crossing state lines in a car with a white woman. To avoid charges, he supposedly agreed to throw a fight to Jess Willard. He pretty much beat Willard senseless first to establish what would really happen and then took a dive and lost the title.

Before that, Jim Jeffries had come out of retirement as the Great White Hope and Johnson utterly dominated the previously undefeated Jeffries and won the fight though that didn't prove much as Jeffries was older and a shell of what he once was.

Still, no real world fighter is going to stand against characters with the abilities of movie boxers like Rocky Balboa.

Bullet Sniper
06-17-2014, 04:24 PM
Well, in the day, nobody would give him a title shot because they didn't want a black champion. When Jim Jeffries retired, he named a guy named Marvin Hart as his successor which he really had no legal authority to do but it was accepted. Hart then lost to Tommy Burns. Burns was notable for being the smallest (weight and height) heavyweight champion ever (to this day, I think). But more because he was the first who would give a title shot to a black man because he knew Johnson was rightfully the number one contender. Johnson beat him easily and reigned undefeated. They tried everything to unseat him. Nobody could do it in the ring. They tried convicting him of the Mann Act which I think had something to do with a black man crossing state lines in a car with a white woman. To avoid charges, he supposedly agreed to throw a fight to Jess Willard. He pretty much beat Willard senseless first to establish what would really happen and then took a dive and lost the title.

Before that, Jim Jeffries had come out of retirement as the Great White Hope and Johnson utterly dominated the previously undefeated Jeffries and won the fight though that didn't prove much as Jeffries was older and a shell of what he once was.

Still, no real world fighter is going to stand against characters with the abilities of movie boxers like Rocky Balboa.

Great response, powerboy.

how do you think jack johnson would react to rocky balboa and vice versa?

lancerman
06-18-2014, 03:31 PM
Rocky stomps. Even if you go with the most realistic movie, which is probably Rocky 1, Rocky stomps. You have to look at it in context, he fought Creed who was the Ali of that world to a split decision in their first fight and a last minute knockout in the second fight. Nothing against Johnson, but Ali was way better. And by proxy I'd give Apollo the same distinction. The guy was never even knocked down or brought to a decision before his first fight with Rocky. Furthermore, boxers just generally get more skilled with each passing era. It got more "scientific".

Also it's a mistake to say that Rocky was really just an unskilled club fighter. In the movie, Mickey berated Rocky saying that he had all the makings to be a contender and that he was pissing it all away being a bum for his loan shark boss. It was really just Rocky living up to his potential via this second shot that he didn't really deserve. Apollo thought he was getting a nobody, and in the end got a guy who under different circumstances could have been right up their with the best if not a number one contender.

And that's just movie 1. Rocky 2 goes a bit higher by saying that he can legitimately beat Apollo who was in the best shape of his life. Rocky 3 implies that a properly motivated Rocky was so good that he could beat the next best guy in 2 rounds. Rocky 4 makes him a flatout superhuman because of how absurdly overpowered Drago was. Rocky 5 was iffy but he kicked the holy hell out of the world champ with no prior training and some brain damage. And Rocky 6 was the most ridiculous being retired for almost around 2 decades being more limited than ever and still going the distance with an his prime champion.

As far as an actual fight between Rocky and Johnson goes, Rocky isn't getting KO'd. In every film when he's properly trained an motivated (IE not Rocky 3 where he didn't seriously train and was all messed up about Mickey being sick) he tanks virtually everything. Even in Rocky 1 he tanked more than any real fighter should ever be able to. Also if you really watch the films, Rocky had enough speed to dodge a lot of quick punches from Apollo and Clubber, he usually just tanked a lot to get his punches in.

Bullet Sniper
06-18-2014, 04:07 PM
Rocky stomps. Even if you go with the most realistic movie, which is probably Rocky 1, Rocky stomps. You have to look at it in context, he fought Creed who was the Ali of that world to a split decision in their first fight and a last minute knockout in the second fight. Nothing against Johnson, but Ali was way better. And by proxy I'd give Apollo the same distinction. The guy was never even knocked down or brought to a decision before his first fight with Rocky. Furthermore, boxers just generally get more skilled with each passing era. It got more "scientific".

Also it's a mistake to say that Rocky was really just an unskilled club fighter. In the movie, Mickey berated Rocky saying that he had all the makings to be a contender and that he was pissing it all away being a bum for his loan shark boss. It was really just Rocky living up to his potential via this second shot that he didn't really deserve. Apollo thought he was getting a nobody, and in the end got a guy who under different circumstances could have been right up their with the best if not a number one contender.

And that's just movie 1. Rocky 2 goes a bit higher by saying that he can legitimately beat Apollo who was in the best shape of his life. Rocky 3 implies that a properly motivated Rocky was so good that he could beat the next best guy in 2 rounds. Rocky 4 makes him a flatout superhuman because of how absurdly overpowered Drago was. Rocky 5 was iffy but he kicked the holy hell out of the world champ with no prior training and some brain damage. And Rocky 6 was the most ridiculous being retired for almost around 2 decades being more limited than ever and still going the distance with an his prime champion.

As far as an actual fight between Rocky and Johnson goes, Rocky isn't getting KO'd. In every film when he's properly trained an motivated (IE not Rocky 3 where he didn't seriously train and was all messed up about Mickey being sick) he tanks virtually everything. Even in Rocky 1 he tanked more than any real fighter should ever be able to. Also if you really watch the films, Rocky had enough speed to dodge a lot of quick punches from Apollo and Clubber, he usually just tanked a lot to get his punches in.

awesome response.

what's the best johnson can do against Movie 1 or Movie 6 Rocky?

lancerman
06-18-2014, 04:20 PM
awesome response.

what's the best johnson can do against Movie 1 or Movie 6 Rocky?

Realistically? In Rocky 1? He could probably go 6-7 rounds before a KO. Rocky had a tendancy to draw his opponents in and dodge or tank (a lot) to set up his assault. Johnson from what I read had a weakness against those kind of fighters. He'll get tired out eventually. Not as bad as Clubber did, but still. I might even spot him up to 11 or 12 if he can land some of his trademarked uppercuts and stun Rocky a bit. But he's not taking him down, and he's getting tired before he can score enough points to go the distance.

In Rocky 6, harder to say. Rocky wasn't really fighting smart. But he was trading with a much faster fighter and getting by on pure punching power. In that scenario it goes longer, but Johnson wasn't faster than the guy Rocky was fighting. So he's taking more hits. I actually see 6 as being better than 1 because at least in the first movie Rocky was in his prime and had all his skills when he did the exact same thing.

Bullet Sniper
06-18-2014, 05:18 PM
Realistically? In Rocky 1? He could probably go 6-7 rounds before a KO. Rocky had a tendancy to draw his opponents in and dodge or tank (a lot) to set up his assault. Johnson from what I read had a weakness against those kind of fighters. He'll get tired out eventually. Not as bad as Clubber did, but still. I might even spot him up to 11 or 12 if he can land some of his trademarked uppercuts and stun Rocky a bit. But he's not taking him down, and he's getting tired before he can score enough points to go the distance.

In Rocky 6, harder to say. Rocky wasn't really fighting smart. But he was trading with a much faster fighter and getting by on pure punching power. In that scenario it goes longer, but Johnson wasn't faster than the guy Rocky was fighting. So he's taking more hits. I actually see 6 as being better than 1 because at least in the first movie Rocky was in his prime and had all his skills when he did the exact same thing.

cool

what do you think would be rocky's and johnson's reactions if they had both met each other?

lancerman
06-18-2014, 05:47 PM
cool

what do you think would be rocky's and johnson's reactions if they had both met each other?

I mean Johnson was a notorious dick. He was never given a fair shake, so that might have been part of it. But he had a reputation for taunting and being arrogant. So it would probably be very similar to Rocky's interactions with Clubber Lang, though more toned down.

Powerboy
06-18-2014, 06:51 PM
Great response, powerboy.

how do you think jack johnson would react to rocky balboa and vice versa?

Rocky would probably see Johnson as a great fighter although I don't know if he'd get along with him as he did with Apollo. Johnson might see Rocky as just another Great White Hope.

Endless_Legend
06-18-2014, 08:10 PM
Well, just from a real boxing perspective, Johnson would plaster Rocky simply from being in a bigger weight class. Johnson was a heavyweight and Rocky, whatever the movie's pretensions, was a cruiserweight at best. He'd be giving up at least 20 pounds to Johnson.

You simply don't get past that kind of weight difference, if both fighters are at a high level of professional skill. Considering how sloppy Rocky's boxing is (hey, it's movie boxing) I'd be inclined to say that it's an even bigger stomp in Johnson's favor.

Of course, people have mentioned that Rocky apparently has superhuman durability or something. Where is Drago quoted as having 2100psi of punching power? Regardless, even if he does, that isn't that much more than many professional fighters. Rampage Jackson has 1800psi in his punches, and he's not even a boxer, he's an MMA fighter.

lancerman
06-18-2014, 10:27 PM
Rocky was billed at 202lbs in the first three movies. That's a heavyweight. Pretty light for a heavyweight, but there are plenty of boxers who found success in a similar weight range.

Also Drago was bigger in both height and weight than Johnson. And not for nothing but nearly every boxer in the Rocky series was faster than Johnson.

The real problem any real boxer would have against Rocky is that a normal man would probably die from the amount of hits (in vital areas) that he tanks in one round of any given film. The Drago stuff was just stupid. For both guys. You can't compete with that. The most realistic fight in the series still had Rocky ranking direct hits in the face from Creed throughout the fight. In real life you can't do that, you lose , you get seriously hurt, you develop brain issues, you are in danger of dying. And that just happens if a normal man gets that many direct hits on you. Boxing has one main concept and that's avoid taking those hits. Rocky flatout takes them, takes good ones, just so he can drive his way into you. And if you watch the the latter 4 films he is fast enough to not need that. He just does it anyways.

A real fighter like Johnson's going to tire out from that really fast. And he's never going to put Rocky down. And the whole time Rocky's just going to keep coming at him to land his hits. Which brings up my other point, Rocky goes up against fast fighters and connects a lot. I've seen tapes of Johnsons fights. He's very good. Especially for the era he was in. But he wasn't that fast, he hit hard, but he wasn't KOing everyone. He fought like a normal fighter. He tired out, he had weak spots in his game (notably against counter fighters).

There are very few fighters who I would give much of a chance to against nearly anybody in the Rocky series. A very good defensive fighter might be able to score a decision. But even then that kind of assumes they go against convention and run from Rocky more than they try to counter the wide open shots he gives them, because he'll just eat it and wail on you. And then he'd still need exceptional stamina, because Rocky doesn't really slow down until late in the last round (of 15).

Bluekey
06-18-2014, 11:29 PM
Well, just from a real boxing perspective, Johnson would plaster Rocky simply from being in a bigger weight class. Johnson was a heavyweight and Rocky, whatever the movie's pretensions, was a cruiserweight at best. He'd be giving up at least 20 pounds to Johnson.

You simply don't get past that kind of weight difference, if both fighters are at a high level of professional skill. Considering how sloppy Rocky's boxing is (hey, it's movie boxing) I'd be inclined to say that it's an even bigger stomp in Johnson's favor.

Of course, people have mentioned that Rocky apparently has superhuman durability or something. Where is Drago quoted as having 2100psi of punching power? Regardless, even if he does, that isn't that much more than many professional fighters. Rampage Jackson has 1800psi in his punches, and he's not even a boxer, he's an MMA fighter.

1800 pounds of force DOES NOT equal 1800psi. If a man punched you in the face with 1800psi power your head would come off. Having said that....Rocky stomps any real life boxer. He's superhuman by real life standards.

Endless_Legend
06-19-2014, 04:16 AM
1800 pounds of force DOES NOT equal 1800psi. If a man punched you in the face with 1800psi power your head would come off. Having said that....Rocky stomps any real life boxer. He's superhuman by real life standards.

If Jackson punched a regular guy in the face, full force (a clean straight-right) the guy probably *would* die, either from his skull caving in or his neck breaking.

As for Rocky being superhuman... alright, whatever. Apparently you guys haven't watched the same fights I did, or the same Rocky movies. I remember seeing alot of sloppy, fake-looking movie boxing in those films, and I've watched some boxing matches and some UFC fights where the amount of damage both fighters were tanking seemed unreal (Hunt vs Bigfoot comes to mind). Obviously the human body can do it, though, because they did.

Bluekey
06-19-2014, 05:11 AM
If Jackson punched a regular guy in the face, full force (a clean straight-right) the guy probably *would* die, either from his skull caving in or his neck breaking
He is not that strong. A fighter pretty much IS a normal guy, just with conditioning and natural talent.


As for Rocky being superhuman... alright, whatever. Apparently you guys haven't watched the same fights I did, or the same Rocky movies. I remember seeing alot of sloppy, fake-looking movie boxing in those films, and I've watched some boxing matches and some UFC fights where the amount of damage both fighters were tanking seemed unreal (Hunt vs Bigfoot comes to mind). Obviously the human body can do it, though, because they did. Yeah....no. Rocky's fight scenes looks like fake moving boxing no doubt. But for the sake of this rumble his feats of blocking dozens of haymakers with his face stand. Watch a heavyweight division fight. Nobody in real life could eat full on punches like that, especially not 200+ pound dudes. Not a single real life boxer would even be able to knock Rocky down. Rocky would essentially be doing a rope a dope move....but by just standing there and getting punched in the face until the opponent couldn't do it anymore.

Powerboy
06-19-2014, 05:18 AM
If Jackson punched a regular guy in the face, full force (a clean straight-right) the guy probably *would* die, either from his skull caving in or his neck breaking.

As for Rocky being superhuman... alright, whatever. Apparently you guys haven't watched the same fights I did, or the same Rocky movies. I remember seeing alot of sloppy, fake-looking movie boxing in those films, and I've watched some boxing matches and some UFC fights where the amount of damage both fighters were tanking seemed unreal (Hunt vs Bigfoot comes to mind). Obviously the human body can do it, though, because they did.

True but a lot of time, Rocky's whole defense is to just drop his guard and let the other guy pound on him and he keeps taking those hits and taking them and taking them and these are massive hits. No real life fighter just keeps taking and taking hits of that force.

On the other hand, I like your point on Rocky's boxing skills. To quote Robert Conrad (formerly Jim West in "The Wild Wild West", who was very proficient in martial arts and who briefly had a career as a boxer): "He (Stallone/ Rocky) is a horrible boxer. But I guess that's where the fantasy has to take precedence over reality."

The problem though is that, when you put him against a real boxer and his reality is not the default on everything, he is a horrible boxer. He still gets the durability. But he doesn't get the advantage of the camera only showing the last instant as a punch connects or other things to make him look faster than he really is. He doesn't get skill anywhere near that of a real boxer just because the fictional scenario says he is. While admitting that boxers in the Rockyverse have greater than human durability, we would also have to say that their skills are horrible compared to real life boxers. Carl Weathers said he studied films of Ali to pattern Apollo Creed after and what he was doing in the ring was an imitation of Ali. As Ali put it, he thanked Weathers because he knew it was meant as a compliment but, frankly, Weathers just thought that what he was doing in the ring was what Ali did. But he just didn't have the talent to do what Ali did in the ring. It was the classic thing of a non boxer/ non martial artist or rookie who tries to imitate a master and he thinks that what he is doing is what he just saw that great fighter do. But it's really not what he did. So truthfully, I could see a real life guy that made it to world champion being able to evade Rocky for 12-15 rounds and win on points. The only problem I might see is that, as people have pointed out, if it was just durability but it is also endurance.

If you look at the Rocky movies, they fight the entire fight at a level that would be the brief all-out moments in a real fight. Nobody can really fight all-out like that for 12-15 rounds or anywhere close to it. So the problem for a real boxer would be that no matter that he is overwhelmingly more skilled than any boxer in the Rocky setting, He can't drop Rocky and Rocky just keeps coming after him all-out for most of the fight until the real guy tires and just can't evade him anymore.