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Zeeguy91
07-22-2016, 11:10 PM
So, what is being brought back exactly? Past continuity? Actual legacy or the simple feeling of legacy? Optimism?

Do you guys actually think this will lead to a confrontation between the DC heroes and DM whereby everything is fixed? Or will DC just leave it as a dangling thread never to be addressed again?

What ar your thoughts?

byrd156
07-22-2016, 11:15 PM
The end game is a better product, it's about bringing back the stuff that makes DC DC.

Zeeguy91
07-22-2016, 11:21 PM
The end game is a better product, it's about bringing back the stuff that makes DC DC.

Yeah, but specifically. How will Rebirth set about doing that? Is this ALL we've seen of the mystery of "what happened to those missing 10 years?" or does DC have an event or story arc planned that addresses that issue further?

Carabas
07-23-2016, 12:27 AM
The end game is a better product, it's about bringing back the stuff that makes DC DC.
Yep, they got rid off a Superman I liked to bring back a Superman I didn't like from the past.

Just like pre-New 52 DC did with Green Arrow, Green Lantern, The Flash... Feels more like proper DC already.

GlennSimpson
07-23-2016, 06:54 AM
So, what is being brought back exactly?

Lost sales.

colonyofcells
07-23-2016, 07:28 AM
There will obviously be a story about bringing back the lost 10 years so there will be more retcons or reboots, but it will not be identical to pre flashpoint.

sifighter
07-23-2016, 07:43 AM
I'm sure they some sort of really big event planned down the line involving the Watchmen and Wally West but honestly it's probably just DC saw that sales weren't doing as well as they wanted them to be with DCyou and decided that they would try to go back to more classic looking versions of the characters but keep what has been working while also trying to tell some interesting stories, which has worked in my opinion.

adrikito
07-23-2016, 07:47 AM
Yep, they got rid off a Superman I liked to bring back a Superman I didn't like from the past.


I think the same thing.

Zeeguy91
07-23-2016, 07:58 AM
Lost sales.

Yes, because New 52 was selling so well. Oh, wait...

Zeeguy91
07-23-2016, 07:58 AM
Yep, they got rid off a Superman I liked to bring back a Superman I didn't like from the past.

Just like pre-New 52 DC did with Green Arrow, Green Lantern, The Flash... Feels more like proper DC already.

There was literally nothing to like about New 52 Superman.

Jonte
07-23-2016, 08:17 AM
I hope it will be an all out assult with the combined forces of the DC Universe with Superdad in the front vs Dr Manhattan.

And for the record Superdad is the superiour Superman over Nuperman :)

GlennSimpson
07-23-2016, 08:21 AM
Yes, because New 52 was selling so well. Oh, wait...

Well, sales of the new52 the first couple of years were great, and while they gradually declined they never reached the low they were at before the new52. But there came a time when they needed another boost as both companies do from time to time, so they figure out an angle ("bring back legacy and hope") and decided to bring back a few of the characters/situations that some people were bitching about losing and put a big old "event" stamp on it and it worked, and last month was the biggest comics sales month in 20 years.

You might not like it, but these are the things that sell comics.

Frontier
07-23-2016, 09:19 AM
I think the endgame is ultimately to re-focus on what makes the heroes the DCU and the DCU as a whole great and unique, as well as re-establish characters, relationships, and groups who have been absent for far too long while course-correcting characters who've gone off the rails or stopped resembling who they used to be when fans grew to love them.

I think with all the Watchmen references and teases that have been in multiple books, some more subtle then others, there's some kind of plan or culmination still in the works.

Atlanta96
07-23-2016, 09:34 AM
DC realized the New 52 broke their universe. People were not responding well to the changes they made and the overall tone and stories of the new DCU. And they were losing sales because of the New 52. So they made a checklist of all the major fan complaints, everything most people seemed to hate about the rebooted universe and are trying to fix those problems. It's paying off on the sales charts so theyre doing the right thing.

We don't know exactly how much of Pre-Flashpoint DC will be restored. But they're doing their best to make the current DCU look and feel like the old one, so it doesn't even matter that much how much history is restored, even though I want as much Pre-Flashpoint stuff as possible.

Jadeb
07-23-2016, 09:53 AM
How Rebirth is playing out in Green Arrow is telling, I think. Essentially, that book has reverted the Ollie and Dinah dynamic to the pre-52 status -- they've known each other for three issues but they're already star-crossed lovers fated to be together. It's implausible within the story, but it's essentially DC doing what it wants with the characters to get them to a viable status quo. So Rebirth is DC having its cake and eating it too, even if short-term continuity suffers. Bits and pieces of the New 52 worked, and they get to stay, as do sales-friendly updates such as adding Cyborg to the Justice League to add diversity. Otherwise, we're reverting back to classic states as DC deems convenient (and the market supports).

I do wonder if this is leading to yet another reboot. With comics in the state they're in, that may be inevitable based solely on sales, but some of the storytelling makes me think the seeds are already being planted. Somehow we'll end up with one Superman, and he will be native to the universe he's in. But whether that fix will be contained within his books or result from a major Watchmen saga, we'll have to see.

Really, my suspicion is that there's no end game other than seeing what moves books and going with that. Right now, what's winning is a sunnier, more classic version of the DC universe with a much larger cast of characters. And I'm all for that.

GlennSimpson
07-23-2016, 09:57 AM
How Rebirth is playing out in Green Arrow is telling, I think. Essentially, that book has reverted the Ollie and Dinah dynamic to the pre-52 status -- they've known each other for three issues but they're already star-crossed lovers fated to be together. It's implausible within the story, but it's essentially DC doing what it wants with the characters to get them to a viable status quo. So Rebirth is DC having its cake and eating it too, even if short-term continuity suffers. Bits and pieces of the New 52 worked, and they get to stay, as do sales-friendly updates such as adding Cyborg to the Justice League to add diversity. Otherwise, we're reverting back to classic states as DC deems convenient (and the market supports).

I do wonder if this is leading to yet another reboot. With comics in the state they're in, that may be inevitable based solely on sales, but some of the storytelling makes me think the seeds are already being planted. Somehow we'll end up with one Superman, and he will be native to the universe he's in. But whether that fix will be contained within his books or result from a major Watchmen saga, we'll have to see.

I agree about the Green Arrow model. "Make him liberal and hook him up with Black Canary, but otherwise tell the same stories you intended to tell anyway" I'm pretty sure is the direction.

I think the Superman thing is just going to be a matter of everyone gradually accepting him as Superman, working through the two-Loises thing, and then never referencing the old ones again. Eventually we'll have Superman posing as Clark Kent, working for the Daily Planet, married to Lois Lane with their son Jon as if it had been that way all along. Which was the whole goal, to address complaints about the Superman-Lois marriage going away with the reboot.

Jadeb
07-23-2016, 10:10 AM
I agree about the Green Arrow model. "Make him liberal and hook him up with Black Canary, but otherwise tell the same stories you intended to tell anyway" I'm pretty sure is the direction.

I think the Superman thing is just going to be a matter of everyone gradually accepting him as Superman, working through the two-Loises thing, and then never referencing the old ones again. Eventually we'll have Superman posing as Clark Kent, working for the Daily Planet, married to Lois Lane with their son Jon as if it had been that way all along. Which was the whole goal, to address complaints about the Superman-Lois marriage going away with the reboot.

I think they're making too much of Nuperman's mysterious demise for that. They could have just incinerated him and been done with it, but instead we're getting the glowing handprint and the strange dispersal of powers. If they wanted to stop mentioning him, they could have by now, yet he continues to be a major plot point. I expect we'll get resolution to that.

Zeeguy91
07-23-2016, 11:29 AM
Well, sales of the new52 the first couple of years were great, and while they gradually declined they never reached the low they were at before the new52. But there came a time when they needed another boost as both companies do from time to time, so they figure out an angle ("bring back legacy and hope") and decided to bring back a few of the characters/situations that some people were bitching about losing and put a big old "event" stamp on it and it worked, and last month was the biggest comics sales month in 20 years.

You might not like it, but these are the things that sell comics.

I'm just gonna repeat what Atlanta96 said because he's said it best.


DC realized the New 52 broke their universe. People were not responding well to the changes they made and the overall tone and stories of the new DCU. And they were losing sales because of the New 52. So they made a checklist of all the major fan complaints, everything most people seemed to hate about the rebooted universe and are trying to fix those problems. It's paying off on the sales charts so theyre doing the right thing.

I'll also add that DC was losing major market share to Marvel, a company that chose NOT to reboot its universe. Like, the most I've ever seen DC lose ground. So, to answer your question, no reboots do NOT sell comics. Events, yes. Reboots, no.

Zeeguy91
07-23-2016, 11:33 AM
I do wonder if this is leading to yet another reboot. With comics in the state they're in, that may be inevitable based solely on sales, but some of the storytelling makes me think the seeds are already being planted. Somehow we'll end up with one Superman, and he will be native to the universe he's in. But whether that fix will be contained within his books or result from a major Watchmen saga, we'll have to see.

I'm really hoping it does result in a major Watchmen crossover saga. I've been saying this forever, but DC NEEDS to do more events. Not every other week, but come on, three/four years without a proper event title is too long. Marvel's use of events (although sometimes tiresome) makes their universe seem exciting and like a place where important things happen. The sales reflect that. DC needs to tap into that.

GlennSimpson
07-23-2016, 12:05 PM
I'm just gonna repeat what Atlanta96 said because he's said it best.



I'll also add that DC was losing major market share to Marvel, a company that chose NOT to reboot its universe. Like, the most I've ever seen DC lose ground. So, to answer your question, no reboots do NOT sell comics. Events, yes. Reboots, no.

DC didn't realize that they screwed up anything. They just saw that the natural attrition had set in and it was time to do something to get attention so they pretended to care about nostalgia and hope to that they would have something to hang their hats on for this event. They know there's a bunch of fans who care more about what happened in a comic published 20 years ago than what the writer is trying to say today so they are giving some lip service and a few mild efforts in that direction so that those fans will give them a try again.

And there's simply no denying the reality that the new52 initiative gave DC tremendous sales, and its sales never declined to the point where they were before the new52. Period.

And nobody denies that DC has been losing market share, but they've barely ever been able to compete with Marvel on that. In fact the only couple of times DC has beat Marvel on any facet of market share was at the height of the new52. Market share is interesting to look at, but I've seen Didio directly deny that they spend any time worrying about it. As long as they are profitable, that's what's important to them.

Atlanta96
07-23-2016, 12:17 PM
DC didn't realize that they screwed up anything. They just saw that the natural attrition had set in and it was time to do something to get attention so they pretended to care about nostalgia and hope to that they would have something to hang their hats on for this event. They know there's a bunch of fans who care more about what happened in a comic published 20 years ago than what the writer is trying to say today so they are giving some lip service and a few mild efforts in that direction so that those fans will give them a try again.

And there's simply no denying the reality that the new52 initiative gave DC tremendous sales, and its sales never declined to the point where they were before the new52. Period.

And nobody denies that DC has been losing market share, but they've barely ever been able to compete with Marvel on that. In fact the only couple of times DC has beat Marvel on any facet of market share was at the height of the new52. Market share is interesting to look at, but I've seen Didio directly deny that they spend any time worrying about it. As long as they are profitable, that's what's important to them.

Didio has admitted that the New 52 created a disconnect with readers and that they changed too much with the reboot. There's no way he would come out and say "Yeah, we screwed up big time". Admitting that fans were disappointed is the closest we'll ever get. And since sales were dropping after the initial reboot, they probably would have plummeted to a new low for the company if not for Rebirth. If it weren't for Rebirth, what would have prevented New 52 sales from continuing to plummet?

Zeeguy91
07-23-2016, 12:24 PM
DC didn't realize that they screwed up anything. They just saw that the natural attrition had set in and it was time to do something to get attention so they pretended to care about nostalgia and hope to that they would have something to hang their hats on for this event. They know there's a bunch of fans who care more about what happened in a comic published 20 years ago than what the writer is trying to say today so they are giving some lip service and a few mild efforts in that direction so that those fans will give them a try again.

Hence GJ going on YouTube and explaining that Rebirth was all about "restoring what was lost in the New 52"???? Rebirth was essentially a giant apology tour for the New 52.

And give it a rest already with the whole "past continuity is a constraint on current writers" thing. It's really not. Because any writer worth anything is willing to do some research on the character they're writing before pitching a story. More often than not, actually, a writer is more interested in exploring past developments further.


And there's simply no denying the reality that the new52 initiative gave DC tremendous sales, and its sales never declined to the point where they were before the new52. Period.

Until people sobered up to the fact that it WAS a reboot. Remember how Didio kept selling it as not a reboot and said all these major stories were still canon? Then they started going back on that and it started frustrating both fans and writers. Hence the dropping sales. Then Marvel NOW came along and showed people how a relaunch was properly done and Marvel dominated.


And nobody denies that DC has been losing market share, but they've barely ever been able to compete with Marvel on that. In fact the only couple of times DC has beat Marvel on any facet of market share was at the height of the new52. Market share is interesting to look at, but I've seen Didio directly deny that they spend any time worrying about it. As long as they are profitable, that's what's important to them.

Actually, Marvel and DC have almost always been neck and neck for market share with a few percentage points putting Marvel in the lead. Well, that is until the suckiness of the New 52 set in and Marvel started killing it with the major talent and their structured timeline of what happened and when. And Star Wars.

New 52 is no longer profitable and hasn't been ever since the readers realized just how much it changed their favorite characters.

GlennSimpson
07-23-2016, 12:33 PM
Didio has admitted that the New 52 created a disconnect with readers and that they changed too much with the reboot. There's no way he would come out and say "Yeah, we screwed up big time". Admitting that fans were disappointed is the closest we'll ever get. And since sales were dropping after the initial reboot, they probably would have plummeted to a new low for the company if not for Rebirth. If it weren't for Rebirth, what would have prevented New 52 sales from continuing to plummet?

Admitting that a small group of fans were disappointed is accurate.

What would have prevented sales from dropping? Nothing. But then again, nothing would have stopped sales from plummeting before the new52 without the new52. DC has to do this stuff every few years to keep people interested. It's not a question of success or failure, it's just that the readership gets attracted to whatever other shiny things that come along and DC has to become shinier for a few months to get them back. There is absolutely nothing that DC can do to keep people buying DC without doing some major line-wide event every few years. Much like Marvel does one every few months...

If DC actually thought they had made some sort of major mistake with the new52, they would have reverted to pre-Flashpoint. But notice they didn't do that.

Sacred Knight
07-23-2016, 12:35 PM
There was literally nothing to like about New 52 Superman.
There's literally nothing that's not hyperbole about this comment. Besides, Carabas liked him, so you trying telling him or anyone else who also liked him that there's nothing to like about the character means absolutely nothing to us.


Which was the whole goal, to address complaints about the Superman-Lois marriage going away with the reboot.
I doubt the aim was the address the marriage in specific. Because the fact is those complaints didn't transfer to loss of sales to any significant degree. The New 52 showed that Superman can operate just fine (better in my opinion) not married to Lois. That's not why the marriage was brought back. It was brought back because of the push to create the Jon character. Whoever's idea it was, they had enough sway to move heaven and earth to make it happen, and it'd been something trying to be fit into the mythos since the New 52 Superboy series. In the end though when the Superboy clone crap failed, they decided to go even more convoluted. For their new idea, Superman needed to be older and married to make the kid happen. That's the only reason the marriage is back, and the only reason the old Superman is back for that matter.

Dark Knight1047
07-23-2016, 12:50 PM
DC realized the New 52 broke their universe. People were not responding well to the changes they made and the overall tone and stories of the new DCU. And they were losing sales because of the New 52. So they made a checklist of all the major fan complaints, everything most people seemed to hate about the rebooted universe and are trying to fix those problems. It's paying off on the sales charts so theyre doing the right thing.

We don't know exactly how much of Pre-Flashpoint DC will be restored. But they're doing their best to make the current DCU look and feel like the old one, so it doesn't even matter that much how much history is restored, even though I want as much Pre-Flashpoint stuff as possible.

Yep. Things like bringing back Wally, getting rid of the Nu52 Superman and bringing the Superman from the old DCU along with Lois and Jon. And fans of Tim felt slighted so they returned him to the fold by putting him on the team in 'Tec. These are all good things and it's what fans wanted. They listened.

cgh
07-23-2016, 07:29 PM
There was literally nothing to like about New 52 Superman.

Literally nothing you've said in this thread is correct.

GlennSimpson
07-23-2016, 07:55 PM
Hence GJ going on YouTube and explaining that Rebirth was all about "restoring what was lost in the New 52"???? Rebirth was essentially a giant apology tour for the New 52.

And give it a rest already with the whole "past continuity is a constraint on current writers" thing. It's really not. Because any writer worth anything is willing to do some research on the character they're writing before pitching a story. More often than not, actually, a writer is more interested in exploring past developments further.



Until people sobered up to the fact that it WAS a reboot. Remember how Didio kept selling it as not a reboot and said all these major stories were still canon? Then they started going back on that and it started frustrating both fans and writers. Hence the dropping sales. Then Marvel NOW came along and showed people how a relaunch was properly done and Marvel dominated.



Actually, Marvel and DC have almost always been neck and neck for market share with a few percentage points putting Marvel in the lead. Well, that is until the suckiness of the New 52 set in and Marvel started killing it with the major talent and their structured timeline of what happened and when. And Star Wars.

New 52 is no longer profitable and hasn't been ever since the readers realized just how much it changed their favorite characters.

GJ went on YouTube and said what people like you want to hear to get you to buy the same comics they were pretty much going to make anyway.

DC and Marvel have never been neck and neck in market share. Marvel has owned the business since the 1960's.

They certainly weren't neck and neck in May 2009: http://www.newsarama.com/3104-diamond-s-may-09-top-100-sales-charts-market-share.html
Or June 2008: http://www.newsarama.com/486-diamond-s-june-2008-sales-charts-market-share-report.html
Or May 2008: http://www.newsarama.com/177-diamond-s-may-2008-sales-charts-market-share-report.html

DC *HAS* to do stuff like the New52 and Rebirth just to survive. Sorry.

And just because you want writers to do lots of research doesn't mean that they really want to. Really they don't. Their aim is on creating something new, not focusing on the past.

And apparently it took people about four years to "sober up" because sales were still pretty good over that span. Rebirth is about doing the next inevitable thing, not fixing any sort of real problem from before. It's just PR and marketing.

Zeeguy91
07-23-2016, 10:54 PM
Literally nothing you've said in this thread is correct.

Well, one is dead and the other isn't.

Zeeguy91
07-23-2016, 11:19 PM
GJ went on YouTube and said what people like you want to hear to get you to buy the same comics they were pretty much going to make anyway.

You go ahead and keep telling yourself that. Just today, Johns said in a panel that Rebirth came about from him sitting down and writing a list of everything he missed about the DCU after Didio told him he wanted to relaunch. So, again, you're just blatantly wrong. Your willingness to deny facts and statements from the very people you think you're channeling is impressive, though.


DC and Marvel have never been neck and neck in market share. Marvel has owned the business since the 1960's

They certainly weren't neck and neck in May 2009: http://www.newsarama.com/3104-diamond-s-may-09-top-100-sales-charts-market-share.html
Or June 2008: http://www.newsarama.com/486-diamond-s-june-2008-sales-charts-market-share-report.html
Or May 2008: http://www.newsarama.com/177-diamond-s-may-2008-sales-charts-market-share-report.html

DC *HAS* to do stuff like the New52 and Rebirth just to survive. Sorry.

I'm still not seeing how that translates to ERASING THE ENTIRE CONTINUITY. Stuff like Rebirth and Marvel Now! Yeah, comic book companies NOW have to do those. But stuff like the New 52 end up hurting DC in the long run. Hence DC's market share shrinking in recent years to the smallest it's ever been in comparison to Marvel. If DC was in a bad position before, it's certainly in a worse position now.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/02/05/marvel-had-twice-the-marketshare-of-dc-comics-but-walking-dead-outsold-secret-wars-in-january-2016-entertainment/

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/12/11/despite-dark-knight-marvel-owns-the-marketshare-of-november-2015-as-dc-starts-to-recover-ground/

So, DC has to do something, but that something has been proven NOT to be the New 52. The New 52 is a dud. It's something that worked for a hot minute but has ended up being of long-term detriment to the company. Like a guy who saws off his foot to get out of joining the army.


And just because you want writers to do lots of research doesn't mean that they really want to. Really they don't. Their aim is on creating something new, not focusing on the past.

I don't know how it is for you, but if someone doesn't want to put basic effort into their job, then they shouldn't have that job. How hard is it to hop on Wikipedia and find out what happened in a previous story.

Also, you do understand how honoring past continuity and creating new stories are NOT mutually exclusive right. Marvel and DC have been making it work for decades and at least Marvel still is making it work. And not only that, but is slaying DC doing so. Also, if you had any proof whatsoever that these were the feelings of writers, you'd have shared it by now. In fact, most writers tend to like that past conitnuity. That continuity is what defines the character and mythology for them and gives them tools and story ideas to play with.

You're spinning your wheels. You not only have no proof, but it's clear from your comments that you don't even know whay you're talking about.


And apparently it took people about four years to "sober up" because sales were still pretty good over that span. Rebirth is about doing the next inevitable thing, not fixing any sort of real problem from before. It's just PR and marketing.

Sales have been sliding for years since the New 52. It took a lot less than 4 years for the "sobering." But Rebirth is actually different. As opposed to New 52, it actually seems to be returning something that was lost. Also, it's cemented that the New 52 isn't a separate timeline. It's only the post-Crisis timeline but has had time and memories excised from it.

So, going back to the actual purpose of the thread, the end game with Rebirth is obviously returning to a Pre-New 52 status quo. DC wouldn't have done so of they thought New 52 was still working.

Flash Gordon
07-23-2016, 11:39 PM
To change Krypto the Super Dog back and then kill him.

Carabas
07-24-2016, 12:13 AM
Well, one is dead and the other isn't.
This is comics. There is no such things as death.

Zeeguy91
07-24-2016, 03:08 AM
This is comics. There is no such things as death.

Well, that's not the only thing happening here. Its also been implied that Nuperman WASN'T the real Superman....

Carabas
07-24-2016, 03:21 AM
Well, that's not the only thing happening here. Its also been implied that Nuperman WASN'T the real Superman....
Well, he acted more like his creators would have him than "Superdad".

Really? Nuperman and Superdad? that's the best nicknames we can come up with for these two?

GlennSimpson
07-24-2016, 07:04 AM
You go ahead and keep telling yourself that. Just today, Johns said in a panel that Rebirth came about from him sitting down and writing a list of everything he missed about the DCU after Didio told him he wanted to relaunch. So, again, you're just blatantly wrong. Your willingness to deny facts and statements from the very people you think you're channeling is impressive, though.



I'm still not seeing how that translates to ERASING THE ENTIRE CONTINUITY. Stuff like Rebirth and Marvel Now! Yeah, comic book companies NOW have to do those. But stuff like the New 52 end up hurting DC in the long run. Hence DC's market share shrinking in recent years to the smallest it's ever been in comparison to Marvel. If DC was in a bad position before, it's certainly in a worse position now.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/02/05/marvel-had-twice-the-marketshare-of-dc-comics-but-walking-dead-outsold-secret-wars-in-january-2016-entertainment/

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/12/11/despite-dark-knight-marvel-owns-the-marketshare-of-november-2015-as-dc-starts-to-recover-ground/

So, DC has to do something, but that something has been proven NOT to be the New 52. The New 52 is a dud. It's something that worked for a hot minute but has ended up being of long-term detriment to the company. Like a guy who saws off his foot to get out of joining the army.



I don't know how it is for you, but if someone doesn't want to put basic effort into their job, then they shouldn't have that job. How hard is it to hop on Wikipedia and find out what happened in a previous story.

Also, you do understand how honoring past continuity and creating new stories are NOT mutually exclusive right. Marvel and DC have been making it work for decades and at least Marvel still is making it work. And not only that, but is slaying DC doing so. Also, if you had any proof whatsoever that these were the feelings of writers, you'd have shared it by now. In fact, most writers tend to like that past conitnuity. That continuity is what defines the character and mythology for them and gives them tools and story ideas to play with.

You're spinning your wheels. You not only have no proof, but it's clear from your comments that you don't even know whay you're talking about.



Sales have been sliding for years since the New 52. It took a lot less than 4 years for the "sobering." But Rebirth is actually different. As opposed to New 52, it actually seems to be returning something that was lost. Also, it's cemented that the New 52 isn't a separate timeline. It's only the post-Crisis timeline but has had time and memories excised from it.

So, going back to the actual purpose of the thread, the end game with Rebirth is obviously returning to a Pre-New 52 status quo. DC wouldn't have done so of they thought New 52 was still working.

People who believe PR are sheep. Look at what is actually being published, now and two years from now. It's the same stuff with a few minor things thrown in. Doesn't mean it's bad, but it's not "OMG we were screwing up before".

And the reason it translates into ERASING THE WHOLE CONTINUITY is that DC was dropping to an all-time low, and only a MAJOR change was going to reverse it. Marvel can just do their little light branding exercises because they already have the #1 position.

Not to mention that a lot of what happened to DC is Marvel having Star Wars which means nothing in terms of DC's strategy. Nobody is denying sales have gone down. But DC's monthly comics publishing would have been out of business if they had done anything other than the new52. Or Didio and co. would have been fired and someone else would have come in and done the exact same thing, or something else just as radical. In the list of things that was going to make DC comics sell "our years of continuity" was pretty low on the list.

How hard is it to just understand who Superman is basically and write a story from there? I've got to go install some new battery-backup units today. I'm not going to go read up on the history of battery-backup units.

How's this for an example of how a writer feels?
http://mancave.cbslocal.com/2014/05/14/continuity-is-the-devil-writer-greg-pak/
"The nice thing about coming in to write the New 52 is I don’t have to worry about what came before the New 52. That stuff is great and it can serve as inspiration, but continuity is the devil. As a writer, having to slavishly make sense of too much continuity can kill a story…

It was a beautiful, beautiful thing for me walking into the New 52 and being able to look at a small range of stories that had been told, and those are the things that are set in stone, and the rest of it we can make up as we go. We can build the stories that make sense for our characters in order to tell the emotional story that we’re telling."

And he's one of the few that will admit it, because they don't want to hurt the feelings of fanboys.

Sales were sliding with the new52, but they were sliding from a MUCH higher point.

2015 - 24,387,995 estimated units
2014 - 26,836,455 estimated units
2013 - 28,184,085 estimated units
2012 - 29,602,125 estimated units
2011 - 26,522,201 estimated units - The New52 (Aug)
2010 - 23,528,000 estimated units
2009 - 24,126,336 estimated units
2008 - 25,760,378 estimated units
2007 - 29,597,217 estimated units
2006 - 30,243,575 estimated units

Without the new52, we'd likely still be hovering around the 20 million mark in 2015, assuming they hadn't just shut down the monthly comics division.

Rebirth is different from the new52 in that it isn't really doing much of anything. Which doesn't make it bad, but please understand that hype is hype and Rebirth is only an "apology" in PR terms.

So going back to the actual purpose of the thread, the end game with Rebirth is obviously throwing in a few comments and 2-3 things that older fans missed in order to get them to start reading the new52 universe that DC has continued to publish and will continue to publish because the bulk of the old continuity is more of a hindrance than a help.

FLGibsonIII
07-24-2016, 09:50 AM
According to the interviews, it seems to allow some level of pre-flashpoint to exist. How much? In what way? I am not entirely sure. Something to note is that the some of these interview answers don't directly match what is happening to what is on the page. It could just be PR talk or they could be talking about two years down the line. Both seem possible, but the former more so. Now the latter is definitely still possible, but it becomes increasingly less likely. That's just my opinion though. Most seem to have a horse in this race, so I would just say that people should come to their own conclusions.

Zeeguy91
07-24-2016, 10:08 AM
People who believe PR are sheep. Look at what is actually being published, now and two years from now. It's the same stuff with a few minor things thrown in. Doesn't mean it's bad, but it's not "OMG we were screwing up before".

In my experience, anyone who calls anyone "sheep" is just a weak-minded individual who can't handle being on the wrong side of things.


And the reason it translates into ERASING THE WHOLE CONTINUITY is that DC was dropping to an all-time low, and only a MAJOR change was going to reverse it. Marvel can just do their little light branding exercises because they already have the #1 position.

And how did erasing the continuity work out for them, champ? They're still sinking to an all-time low, indeed lower than they were before because now they've pissed off long term fans. That's on top of not really even attracting new readers because of editorial mismanagement of the line (including that they couldn't decide exactly what was in or out of continuity), which led to really crappy comics.


Not to mention that a lot of what happened to DC is Marvel having Star Wars which means nothing in terms of DC's strategy.

Yeah, it does. The reason that Star Wars is so successful is because Marvel has attracted superstar talent to work on that line. And how did they attract them? By having their crap together.


Nobody is denying sales have gone down. But DC's monthly comics publishing would have been out of business if they had done anything other than the new52. Or Didio and co. would have been fired and someone else would have come in and done the exact same thing, or something else just as radical. In the list of things that was going to make DC comics sell "our years of continuity" was pretty low on the list.

The success of Marvel Now! (which indeed TROUNCED the New 52) shows that DC could have just done something LIKE Marvel NOW! They didn't NEED to erase continuity, and actually shouldn't have. Plus, you're acting as if this was a brilliant idea that Didio suddenly had to save the company. It wasn't. He had wanted to do this for years. Only 10 years ago, Levitz was still in charge at DC and recognized that it was a stupid idea, preventing Dan from following through with it. Once Levitz left and Dan was made Co-Publisher, there was nobody stopping him. There's a reason that the DC Universe was 100X better than it is now when it was under Levitz's care.


How hard is it to just understand who Superman is basically and write a story from there? I've got to go install some new battery-backup units today. I'm not going to go read up on the history of battery-backup units.

Like most of your analogies, that makes no sense. Your battery packs haven't built on a continuous narrative and attracted fans BECAUSE of that narrative.


How's this for an example of how a writer feels?
http://mancave.cbslocal.com/2014/05/14/continuity-is-the-devil-writer-greg-pak/
"The nice thing about coming in to write the New 52 is I don’t have to worry about what came before the New 52. That stuff is great and it can serve as inspiration, but continuity is the devil. As a writer, having to slavishly make sense of too much continuity can kill a story…

It was a beautiful, beautiful thing for me walking into the New 52 and being able to look at a small range of stories that had been told, and those are the things that are set in stone, and the rest of it we can make up as we go. We can build the stories that make sense for our characters in order to tell the emotional story that we’re telling."

And he's one of the few that will admit it, because they don't want to hurt the feelings of fanboys.

So, a writer who had never worked for DC before didn't mind it? Great. Go ask Mark Waid and Alex Ross how they felt on the subject. Several creators were vocal advocates against the New 52 because, like most comic writers, they knew that last continuity matters. Here's Alex Ross:

"[The New 52] is a tough thing to see. All those comics that you grew up reading, none of them count. It’s not quite an all-service kind of menu of storytelling. Marvel did their Ultimates by saying “Hey, you can either jump on board, or you can read the regular stuff, it’s ok.” There’s no forced 'This is it, and this is all it’s ever going to be.'"

Source: http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/07/13/the-new-52-is-a-tough-thing-to-see-alex-ross-talks-tower-chronicles-reboots-and-how-to-animate-kingdom-come/

And its not just writers or readers, major media outlets also recognized the huge problem that was posed by the New 52:

"The New 52 established that Superman was the first hero to make his appearance known and he had been operating for about five years. This compressed timeline led to some major problems from both a storytelling perspective and a continuity one. From the storytelling side of things, it gutted the concept of legacy characters, such as the Robins and various members of the Flash family. Wally West, the original version of the character, didn’t even make his appearance until a month ago in Rebirth #1. Luckily, it looks like DC is making an honest attempt to fix this issue with the Rebirth storyline."

http://screenrant.com/rebirth-new-52-got-wrong/?view=all


Sales were sliding with the new52, but they were sliding from a MUCH higher point.

2015 - 24,387,995 estimated units
2014 - 26,836,455 estimated units
2013 - 28,184,085 estimated units
2012 - 29,602,125 estimated units
2011 - 26,522,201 estimated units - The New52 (Aug)
2010 - 23,528,000 estimated units
2009 - 24,126,336 estimated units
2008 - 25,760,378 estimated units
2007 - 29,597,217 estimated units
2006 - 30,243,575 estimated units

Oh, okay, well let's revisit the market share, shall we?

http://www.comichron.com/vitalstatistics/marketsharesyearly.html

Notice how at thee 2011-2015 mark, DC's market share starts to drastically decline with readers going over to Marvel. By your logic, if continuity is this big hindrance, then Marvel should be out of business because they've preserved theirs while DC chose to abandon theirs. Yet...they seem to be doing a lot better than DC, not just in the Star Wars line, but in pretty much anything.

The point is that New 52 didn't solve anything. Its fix was temporary at best. It was a bandaid done in desperation because of widespread mismanagement under Didio. The true fix would be to put someone ELSE in charge at DC Comics. Someone LIKE Mark Waid who knows what makes comic books comic books.


Rebirth is different from the new52 in that it isn't really doing much of anything. Which doesn't make it bad, but please understand that hype is hype and Rebirth is only an "apology" in PR terms.

So going back to the actual purpose of the thread, the end game with Rebirth is obviously throwing in a few comments and 2-3 things that older fans missed in order to get them to start reading the new52 universe that DC has continued to publish and will continue to publish because the bulk of the old continuity is more of a hindrance than a help.

Except DC Universe: Rebirth #1 LITERALLY establishes that the New 52 universe is simply the Post-Crisis universe, but DM messed with the timeline. If you're so intent on looking at what's published. well there you go. The book literally states that when the timeline was reasserting itself after Flashpoint, DM reaches in and steals 10 years. Without those 10 years stolen, the universe would be the same. And by publishing that story, DC essentially admits that its bringing back the timeline as it was before. It brought back Wally and Barry's memories of Wally. It establishes that there's a mystery to be solved in regards of the missing 10 years from the timeline (the Pre-New 52 timeline). And that makes sense. You can't say "DM stole our time" and then NOT follow up on it with a story whereby that time is restored.

Also, going by the solicits, it would seem that several of the characters are now remembering or coming back into their Pre-New 52 lives. So, for example, in the Titans solicit for October, the story revolves around Wally trying to save Linda...because he remembers their marriage, even if he's the only one who does. The Flash has included several references to the timeline mystery, and Barry's teaming up with Wally and Bruce to get to the bottom of what happened to their lives.

Your stubbornness at realizing something that DC themselves have realized is ridiculous. The New 52 was a mistake. Everyone knows. DC even now knows that. It would seem that the only one who doesn't know that is you.

Atlanta96
07-24-2016, 10:35 AM
It's also worth pointing out that almost all Rebirth books out so far are selling significantly better than their New 52 counterparts. I think the only exceptions are Action and Detective Comics, which didn't have #1 issues this time to boost their sales. Many of those books haven't even seen their final printing yet (I'm still waiting on Flash Rebirth and Superman #1) so they're even more successful than they look on the charts.

Rebirth, the relaunch focused on restoring elements of the old DCU, is undeniably more successful than the New 52. People like the tone, stories, and continuity of Pre-Flashpoint DC, and are making Rebirth books fly off the shelves because they were promised a return to that universe. I doubt we'll get all 10 years of lost continuity back, but the changes being made to the current DCU are good enough.

upgrayedd
07-24-2016, 11:38 AM
Well, he acted more like his creators would have him than "Superdad".

Really? Nuperman and Superdad? that's the best nicknames we can come up with for these two?

I like "Superdead"

Flash Gordon
07-24-2016, 01:19 PM
I hate Nuperman and Superdad, as names.

byrd156
07-24-2016, 03:56 PM
I like "Superdead"

That's a great name.

GDC3
07-24-2016, 05:45 PM
Keith Giffen, a DC stalwart over the years, had quite a bit to say about continuity on this very site even back in '08.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=15750

"Short form... Okay, maybe not so short but you've read this far... Continuity binds. I can't begin to count how many times I've heard of great story ideas that were squelched in the name of continuity.
And didn't continuity used to be the stuff of fandom? Wasn't it originally a creative exercise by hardcore fans to see it events could or couldn't be aligned, done solely for entertainment purposes? How'd it bleed over to the actual product? Was it fans turned pro showing up for work with the accumulated luggage of their individual obsessions? An aging reader base that insisted the characters grow old with them? The kind of professional laziness that plunders the past instead of enriching the future?
Don't know, don't care, don't like continuity."

For me the endgame of Rebirth is to restore elements that were lost while moving forward a revamped, filled in New52 continuity. I love many of the pieces being put back. But the reality of continuity is that while it makes fans happy to see all the points connected like pieces of a puzzle it can bind some writers and hinder certain very good stories from being told.

Zeeguy91
07-24-2016, 06:48 PM
Keith Giffen, a DC stalwart over the years, had quite a bit to say about continuity on this very site even back in '08.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=15750

"Short form... Okay, maybe not so short but you've read this far... Continuity binds. I can't begin to count how many times I've heard of great story ideas that were squelched in the name of continuity.
And didn't continuity used to be the stuff of fandom? Wasn't it originally a creative exercise by hardcore fans to see it events could or couldn't be aligned, done solely for entertainment purposes? How'd it bleed over to the actual product? Was it fans turned pro showing up for work with the accumulated luggage of their individual obsessions? An aging reader base that insisted the characters grow old with them? The kind of professional laziness that plunders the past instead of enriching the future?
Don't know, don't care, don't like continuity."

For me the endgame of Rebirth is to restore elements that were lost while moving forward a revamped, filled in New52 continuity. I love many of the pieces being put back. But the reality of continuity is that while it makes fans happy to see all the points connected like pieces of a puzzle it can bind some writers and hinder certain very good stories from being told.

Mr. Giffen does not speak for all comic book writers. As mentioned above, creators like Mark Waid, Alex Ross, and several others believe that continuity is an important aspect of the DC and Marvel Universes. I don't care if a writer has a story idea that goes against continuity. Any GOOD writer would be able to make that story work within continuity. This talk of it being "restricting" is just justification for writers to be lazy and not actually put in any work into the subjects they're writing about.

This blurb explains it best:

"Continuity is quite simply the greatest storytelling device since the narrative poem. Even if you’ve never written a story or taken a lit class, you probably know about continuity. Cause precedes effect, action comes before reaction, and characters that die in chapter four do not suddenly appear alive and well in chapter six without a very good explanation. It allows our stories to mimic the flow of events in reality, thus making them more real for the reader. Continuity is part of the magic that allows us to believe stories that we know to be categorically false."

https://litreactor.com/columns/on-comics-and-continuity

In essence, continuity is what makes the stories and characters REAL and gives the stories that we read as fans meaning. And if a writer doesn't want to at least TRY to follow it, well then sorry, then you're just not that good of a writer and I don't want to see you writing anything I might read.

There's a place for writers who don't want to follow canon, and that is writing a non-canon title. Plus, if DC wants to make changes to their continuity, theres a thing called retconning, where creators are allowed to tinker with small things in order to give a story more impact or to keep things more current. For example, revealing that Ben Grimm accidentally tinkered with Doom's machine when they were in college (as Fraction did in his run not too long ago). Or revealing that Dr. Light's incompetence stemmed from Zatanna's magical lobotomy. That is a change that has almost no impact on the timeline that several writers have spent years and decades building, but it allows the current writer to do what they want.

qwerty3w
07-24-2016, 08:23 PM
Giffen's Doom Patrol was certinally benefited from Morrison's run, his Sugar and Spike won't work without using some old stories from silver/bronze age too.

Continuity is both restricting and liberating at the same time, on one hand it force the writer to continue from the status quo setted by other people, on another hand building up great settings and characters and make readers attached to them could be very difficult, so it's very handy to be able to use other people's stuffs.

I think continuity works best when only the better stuffs count, if someone want to use "Tygers" by Alan Moore, he shouldn't be obstructed by Geoff Johns's retcons.

Sacred Knight
07-24-2016, 08:31 PM
I hate Nuperman and Superdad, as names.
I only used Superdad as a distinguisher, for simplicities sake. If New 52 Superman isn't going to come back, which appears more likely every day unfortunately, I'll have no reason to use it anymore.

And I'm a big fan of continuity. Its 90% of the reason I hate the confusing mess they made out of the Superman line by swapping versions. There's nothing here they couldn't have done, using a little creativity, applying it to the Superman that existed and not have to delve into multiple versions and all that crap. Instead now we have this, which they'll likely drag out the answers for for at least a year, and in the meantime much like nearly the entirety of the aughts, we go back to a Superman with no clear cut origin. Only way it turns out halfway decent is if it turns out they're not alternates but are Lois and Clark of this verse, just older and with memory wipes to make them think they were from another world for whatever reason.

Hell they could use it to make sense of Jon. If these are the same characters, then they could have Superwoman get lost in time at the end of her run, find New 52 Superman whose also lost in time (the mysterious figure Wally felt with him in the timestream in Rebirth special), find their way onto an alternate Earth in the multiverse, and conceive Jon while Lois is still empowered. Circumventing the human/Kryptonian incompatibility. At some point Lois loses the powers, then the Convergence stuff happens which along the way results in said memory tamperings.

GDC3
07-24-2016, 08:49 PM
Mr. Giffen does not speak for all comic book writers. As mentioned above, creators like Mark Waid, Alex Ross, and several others believe that continuity is an important aspect of the DC and Marvel Universes. I don't care if a writer has a story idea that goes against continuity. Any GOOD writer would be able to make that story work within continuity. This talk of it being "restricting" is just justification for writers to be lazy and not actually put in any work into the subjects they're writing about.

This blurb explains it best:

"Continuity is quite simply the greatest storytelling device since the narrative poem. Even if you’ve never written a story or taken a lit class, you probably know about continuity. Cause precedes effect, action comes before reaction, and characters that die in chapter four do not suddenly appear alive and well in chapter six without a very good explanation. It allows our stories to mimic the flow of events in reality, thus making them more real for the reader. Continuity is part of the magic that allows us to believe stories that we know to be categorically false."

https://litreactor.com/columns/on-comics-and-continuity

In essence, continuity is what makes the stories and characters REAL and gives the stories that we read as fans meaning. And if a writer doesn't want to at least TRY to follow it, well then sorry, then you're just not that good of a writer and I don't want to see you writing anything I might read.

There's a place for writers who don't want to follow canon, and that is writing a non-canon title. Plus, if DC wants to make changes to their continuity, theres a thing called retconning, where creators are allowed to tinker with small things in order to give a story more impact or to keep things more current. For example, revealing that Ben Grimm accidentally tinkered with Doom's machine when they were in college (as Fraction did in his run not too long ago). Or revealing that Dr. Light's incompetence stemmed from Zatanna's magical lobotomy. That is a change that has almost no impact on the timeline that several writers have spent years and decades building, but it allows the current writer to do what they want.

Of course he doesn't. Likewise neither do Ross or Waid. The point is there are many who feel differently about continuity, whether for or against. Not just some new guys who never worked on big 2 comics before. For every pro that loves it, you'll find another that finds it limiting. Your assertion that those against working with decades of continuity are just lazy or not very good writers is ridiculous and not based in fact.

colonyofcells
07-24-2016, 09:02 PM
Most professionals can probably remember major events like death of jason todd, death of superman, crippling of batgirl by joker, etc. Most past details can be quietly forgotten. Damian Wayne is quite popular so there is probably no need to return to the silver age Robin Dick Grayson. New 52 Hawkman reboot did simplify Hawkman continuity comparable to the simpler silver age Hawkman continuity.

Zeeguy91
07-24-2016, 09:12 PM
Of course he doesn't. Likewise neither do Ross or Waid. The point is there are many who feel about continuity, whether for or against. Not just some new guys who never workedon big 2 comics before. For every pro that loves it, you'll find another that finds it limiting. Your assertion that those against working with decades of continuity are just lazy or not very good writers is ridiculous and not based in fact.

Well, when a writer starts to dismiss one of the fundamental aspects of storytelling, which pretty much every story that's ever been written possesses, I begin to question their opinions. The whole point of writing comics is that you're building on this massive story in which people have invested and several people have participated in telling. Paul Levitz once said it best: "One of the wonderful things about working in comics is that you get to build on people and people build on you. You have all that under you and then you add to it..." If people don't want to do that, then they should go write their own characters. If a character doesn't have a continuous narrative of their life, then they are no longer a character. They simply are a concept and simple concepts aren't what readers want to invest their time and money in.

GSman
07-24-2016, 09:53 PM
Well, that's not the only thing happening here. Its also been implied that Nuperman WASN'T the real Superman.... Where was that implied? It just said they both weren't what they think they are and that could mean anything. it could be that Superdad and Nuperman are the same person or Nuperman was Kal-L which would make him even more Superman.

The Shredder
07-25-2016, 01:44 AM
After reading that, and following Infinite Crisis' conclusion, along with Kal-L in Blackest Night, I'm even more convinced that DC should just leave Kal-L alone and let him rest. That would be the preferred course of action.

If anything Pre-Crisis Earth Two Kal-L returning from the Multiverse to help save the day in Action Comics #1000 would rectify things to an extent.

Prisoner 6655321
07-25-2016, 02:55 AM
I think the “end game” for Rebirth is pretty much just more comic books (and that's fine). As for the Doctor Manhattan / Oz story I think it's still too soon to guess.

As for sales… I think it's not really worth trying to divine meanings from sales numbers and reducing this to continuity issue is a vast oversimplification. It seems pretty safe to speculate, that at least for a sizable chunk of the readers they weren't dropping DC books before Flashpoint because they felt the continuity was too complex. They were dropping books because many of the books that DC was putting out during that time were for shit. There are a lot of factors as to why things sold as they did and it's totally worth noting that ten years ago DC was selling more comics than during the “new 52” era. Besides anything to do with comic-books it's worth mentioning that the biggest declines in sales during the “pre-flashpoint” era lines up pretty well with economic issues felt during that time.

Also, I tend to view Rebirth as not quite a reboot but as a sort of great reconciler in a lot of respects. As important as any of the details changed by Rebirth may be I think the bigger pro is that it connects the whole universe to what came before. Regardless as to if specific details maintained come from before or after Flashpoint the universe its self IS the Pre-Flashpoint universe and the New-52 universe because Rebirth makes it clear that they're all the same piece of metaphorical paper folded different ways.

Zeeguy91
07-25-2016, 06:38 PM
Where was that implied? It just said they both weren't what they think they are and that could mean anything. it could be that Superdad and Nuperman are the same person or Nuperman was Kal-L which would make him even more Superman.

Mr. Oz says to Clark "You are not what you seem and neither was this world's Superman." If we start at the basic assumption that New Fifty-tuperman did SEEM to be Superman, well then Mr. Oz is by virtue of that statement saying he's not who you think he is. Ergo, he's not Superman.

Sacred Knight
07-25-2016, 10:51 PM
Its just one possibility of a plethora. The statement is extremely vague. I could see them doing something stupid like this, but there is virtually no narrowing down of what Oz is referring to based just on this hint at this point in time. And its a hint that may or may not even be reliable as its already been stated that while his hints are important, its not a sure thing that everything he thinks he knows is the truth. Ergo, the reality as it stands now is that the two Supermen and the mysteries surrounding them is entirely up in the air. Maybe N52 Superman is the Superman of another Earth. Maybe they're BOTH Supermen of another Earth. Maybe they're spiritual successors of the original two Supermen of yesteryear. Maybe they're the exact same guy, one just older via time travel. That's only a few options off the top of one's head outside of N52 Superman not being a true Superman at all.

davew128
07-26-2016, 01:54 AM
Also, you do understand how honoring past continuity and creating new stories are NOT mutually exclusive right. Marvel and DC have been making it work for decades and at least Marvel still is making it work. Highly debatable. Most recent stories from Bendis and Remender pretty much piss at continuity. Hawkeye suddenly willing to kill after decades of an extreme moral aversion to it? Thor having a Celestial killing axe for over a thousand years that just might have come in handy in Thor #300? Everything Bendis writes in GOTG?

Zeeguy91
07-26-2016, 02:11 AM
Highly debatable. Most recent stories from Bendis and Remender pretty much piss at continuity. Hawkeye suddenly willing to kill after decades of an extreme moral aversion to it? Thor having a Celestial killing axe for over a thousand years that just might have come in handy in Thor #300? Everything Bendis writes in GOTG?

That's a far cry from writing things that directly fly in the face of continuity. If anything, those are soft retcons at best. The first is more so an issue of character portrayal/personality than an issue of his actual history being in flux. Hawkeye has historically been against killing. That doesn't preclude him from ever killing if he believes its the only option. If Bendis is unable to find a good explanation for that about face, well then that's more so about his ability as a writer than it is about the utility of continuity. Same thing for Thor. Its a soft retcon if anything. All that would be needed to reconcile it would be to say "It was unavailable here because..." Again, far cry from having a lionshare of the character's history and memories rewritten.

HsssH
07-26-2016, 06:39 AM
People who believe PR are sheep. Look at what is actually being published, now and two years from now. It's the same stuff with a few minor things thrown in. Doesn't mean it's bad, but it's not "OMG we were screwing up before".

This. Honestly I found entire Rebirth thing rather dishonest from DC's side. But hey, whatever gives them more money?

davew128
07-26-2016, 11:14 AM
That's a far cry from writing things that directly fly in the face of continuity. If anything, those are soft retcons at best. The first is more so an issue of character portrayal/personality than an issue of his actual history being in flux. Hawkeye has historically been against killing. That doesn't preclude him from ever killing if he believes its the only option. If Bendis is unable to find a good explanation for that about face, well then that's more so about his ability as a writer than it is about the utility of continuity. Same thing for Thor. Its a soft retcon if anything. All that would be needed to reconcile it would be to say "It was unavailable here because..." Again, far cry from having a lionshare of the character's history and memories rewritten.There is no explanation for Hawkeye's about face. This is a man who wouldn't support the execution of a being responsible for untold billions of dead Kree. And scolded his wife for allowing the man who raped her to fall to his death. I won't even go into the whole death of Rich Rider explanation fiasco. Anyway, point being is that few writers at Marvel care about continuity. Ewing, Hickman. Maybe a couple others.

Zeeguy91
07-26-2016, 11:35 AM
There is no explanation for Hawkeye's about face. This is a man who wouldn't support the execution of a being responsible for untold billions of dead Kree. And scolded his wife for allowing the man who raped her to fall to his death. I won't even go into the whole death of Rich Rider explanation fiasco.

Well, to be fair, those instances involved killing the character in question for retribution for their past actions. Killing Bruce Banner in Civil War II was more so a preventative thing (I believe). Anyway, the point is that it's still not the same thing. Is it a bad OOC portrayal of Clint? Yeah, you bet. But it's still not on the same level of saying that these major milestones in his life didn't happen. It's not the same as erasing his relationships. Hawkeye still did those things, said those things. Bendis is just portraying him out of character. But I doubt he'd do something like erasing his marriage to Mockingbird from continuity.