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Ite
05-01-2014, 11:03 PM
Can Cap and Daredevil together as a team defeat Spider-Man?

BitVyper
05-01-2014, 11:08 PM
Cap seems like a liability against a bloodlusted Spiderman. I can't see him really having an effect.

Matt the Manly
05-01-2014, 11:42 PM
Spiderman can just web them up

Hazard
05-02-2014, 07:42 AM
Nope. Spider-Man is stronger than Daredevil and likely faster. Cap is barely an issue.

Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh
05-02-2014, 09:20 AM
Nope. Spider-Man is stronger than Daredevil and likely faster. Cap is barely an issue.

Daredevil does things like register a sniper round being fired at him the split second before it shatters the window he's in front of; allowing him to turn out of the way before it blows his brains out, only getting his cheek grazed.

Spiderman dances while being shot at with machine gun fire, and doesn't get shot unless he has to. Or against Hitman Monkey. But that's another thing entirely.

Ite
05-02-2014, 11:19 AM
I was thinking maybe Cap could be a little of a distraction to help out Daredevil.

Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh
05-02-2014, 11:35 AM
I was thinking maybe Cap could be a little of a distraction to help out Daredevil.

He's going to get beaten to death with his own shield, unfortunately.

bloodyarts
05-02-2014, 01:14 PM
You would think a Super-Soldier and an enhanced Ninja could take Spider-Man, right?

Even if you added Wolverine to this fight, I still think Spider-Man would take it. He's considered street-level, but actually, look where's he's ranked...614

Well above Cap, DD and even Wolverine.

Strength aside, there's no way Cap and Daredevil can keep up with Spider-Man's speed or break his webbing.

I would still love to see this fight, though. It would bring out the best in Cap and DD.

Pendaran
05-02-2014, 01:34 PM
That ranking isn't really anything I'd take seriously in the slightest, but it's not necessary for Spiderman "I threw a jeep at a sniper" to be noted as well stronger than Cap or Daredevil.

Matt the Manly
05-02-2014, 02:22 PM
You would think a Super-Soldier and an enhanced Ninja could take Spider-Man, right?

Even if you added Wolverine to this fight, I still think Spider-Man would take it. He's considered street-level, but actually, look where's he's ranked...614

Well above Cap, DD and even Wolverine.

Strength aside, there's no way Cap and Daredevil can keep up with Spider-Man's speed or break his webbing.

I would still love to see this fight, though. It would bring out the best in Cap and DD.

"Even" Wolverine?

You make it sound like that is something particularly impressive

Otherwise the important thing here is Spiderman has blitzed( or as close as possible) A bullet timer. which makes this a non fight mostly

Theres also stuff like lifting subway cars, throwing jeeps which show he is stronger too

And the webbing

And the spider sense

Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh
05-02-2014, 03:31 PM
Surfer's like; why the hell am I even here?

bloodyarts
05-02-2014, 03:53 PM
"Even Wolverine", meaning if you combined his strength with Cap and DD, it wouldn't make much difference.

The rankings there are old (1981), but the rankings above and below him still hold true today. You have to start somewhere. Colossus and She-Hulk have moved up, and Surfer shouldn't be there at all, but the others are still on Spidey's level.

And look at what he says there, "...they still don't have my speed, agility and senses." Those skills, combined with his strength and webbing makes Spidey a BEAST (when not subject to PIS) against any peak human or anyone on his level.

Pendaran
05-02-2014, 03:58 PM
The rankings there are old (1981), but the rankings above and below him still hold true today. You have to start somewhere. Colossus and She-Hulk have moved up, and Surfer shouldn't be there at all, but the others are still on Spidey's level.

Luke Cage has actually increased in strength and durability since those days, he's significantly beyond Peter in such things as far as they go.

Guy Smiley
05-02-2014, 04:07 PM
Surfer's like; why the hell am I even here?

Yeah, I was like that too. "What is he doing there? Dude's had fistfights with the Hulk before whenever that scan was!"

bloodyarts
05-02-2014, 05:25 PM
Luke Cage has actually increased in strength and durability since those days, he's significantly beyond Peter in such things as far as they go.
Hasn't Spider-Man's strength been boosted as well over the years? Or is Luke still just that much stronger? What recent feat does Luke have that puts him significantly beyond Spider-Man?

Surtur
05-02-2014, 05:32 PM
This is a pretty brutal slaughter, I almost feel sorry for Cap and Daredevil.


Hasn't Spider-Man's strength been boosted as well over the years? Or is Luke still just that much stronger? What recent feat does Luke have that puts him significantly beyond Spider-Man?

I don't think you could say Spider-Man goes past the Class 20 mark(If that even). Luke has to be at least Class 50.

Pendaran
05-02-2014, 05:50 PM
Luke has done enough "drop the length of a skyscraper, be basically unharmed/unimpaired by the experience" bits, as an off the top of my head durability example, to look well beyond Spiderman.

bloodyarts
05-02-2014, 06:15 PM
Luke has done enough "drop the length of a skyscraper, be basically unharmed/unimpaired by the experience" bits, as an off the top of my head durability example, to look well beyond Spiderman. oh, I have no doubt Luke is more durable than Pete. I was getting more at strength feats that put him significantly beyond Pete.

Pendaran
05-02-2014, 06:28 PM
oh, I have no doubt Luke is more durable than Pete. I was getting more at strength feats that put him significantly beyond Pete.

Off the top of my head, while compared to a top end scale brick doing it, it was a fairly crappy one (as well it should be, Luke Cage, while impressive relatively, is not on that scale), Luke Cage has done the clap his hands together, send someone flying from the sheer force of clapping his hands type thing.

Jonathan
05-02-2014, 06:32 PM
Spiderman is far too strong for them, and probably a good bit faster as well.

By the way, how did Surfer get on the mid-tier thing?

Seto Kaiba
05-02-2014, 07:45 PM
Spiderman is far too strong for them, and probably a good bit faster as well.

By the way, how did Surfer get on the mid-tier thing?

I was wondering that too. I know it's old but still....

Unless it's purely a strength thing.

Hazard
05-02-2014, 08:26 PM
I was wondering that too. I know it's old but still....

Unless it's purely a strength thing.

It's meant to be a purely strength thing.

It's still wrong. Surfer is hilarious stronger than anyone else on that picture combined.

Len Ikari145
05-02-2014, 08:34 PM
This is a pretty brutal slaughter, I almost feel sorry for Cap and Daredevil.



I don't think you could say Spider-Man goes past the Class 20 mark(If that even). Luke has to be at least Class 50.

Spidey has his moments where he benches above his weight class in fits of raw adrenaline and desperation, but yeah, he's always been consistently portrayed as Class 10.

Unless you want to get into his clones. Kaine, for instance, was a solid Class 20 before he was cured of cellular degeneration and reverted to his late teens, putting him in the same class as Pete.

Hazard
05-02-2014, 08:40 PM
You know what? This thread needs feats. I mean, we know this stuff but it's a new age and all.

http://i.imgur.com/OMpAM7V.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/cch1hNJ.jpg

Matt the Manly
05-02-2014, 09:39 PM
"Even Wolverine", meaning if you combined his strength with Cap and DD, it wouldn't make much difference

Oh ok I thought you were trying to say Wolverine was significantly above those two. My bad

And btw handbooks, rankings, power grids, character statements etc those sort of things dont count for much on Rumbles

dupersuper
05-02-2014, 11:26 PM
It's meant to be a purely strength thing.

It's still wrong. Surfer is hilarious stronger than anyone else on that picture combined.

I would say so...

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/0/2532/778550-silversurfer03603iy4.jpg

Primetime Harder
05-03-2014, 12:00 AM
I would say so...

I believe I have found the solution. It wasn't the Silver Surfer in that picture...it was the Silver Jobber. Observe the difference. (http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/1226/555903-1292781-screenshot357_super.jpg)

Ite
05-03-2014, 12:11 AM
As the one guy said if you added Wolverine to the mix so it would be Cap, Daredevil, and Wolverine together could Spider-man really defeat all 3 at once?

Matt the Manly
05-03-2014, 12:21 AM
As the one guy said if you added Wolverine to the mix so it would be Cap, Daredevil, and Wolverine together could Spider-man really defeat all 3 at once?

Once he takes out DD, easily

Ite
05-03-2014, 12:24 AM
Once he takes out DD, easily

So Wolverine and Captain America aren't even distractions to Spidey?

Cujo
05-03-2014, 12:28 AM
Spider Man, Spider man.

Is better then the two other guys because he can.

Spider-man!!!

Matt the Manly
05-03-2014, 12:29 AM
So Wolverine and Captain America aren't even distractions to Spidey?

Nope. especially not with webbing

Even without, hes going to punch a hole through these guys before they can blink

Or in logans case, rip out his organs easily

Ite
05-03-2014, 12:29 AM
Spider Man, Spider man.

Is better then the two other guys because he can.

Spider-man!!!
Yeah but what about 3?

Cujo
05-03-2014, 12:30 AM
Yeah but what about 3?

We pretend that movie never existed, and move on.

Ite
05-03-2014, 12:30 AM
Nope. especially not with webbing

Even without, hes going to punch a hole through these guys before they can blink

Or in logans case, rip out his organs easily

So Daredevil and Cap will just sit there and watch Spidey rip out Wolverine's organs?

Matt the Manly
05-03-2014, 12:44 AM
So Daredevil and Cap will just sit there and watch Spidey rip out Wolverine's organs?

DD will react....but Pete should be fast enough to rip out his organs , turn and dodge DDs blows before punching through him
( a short scuffle might ensue, DD being really fast and all but the moment Pete lands a solid hit, its over)
Cap just blinks

Ite
05-03-2014, 12:46 AM
DD will react....but Pete should be fast enough to rip out his organs , turn and dodge DDs blows before punching through him
( a short scuffle might ensue, DD being really fast and all but the moment Pete lands a solid hit, its over)
Cap just blinks

I don't buy it.

Matt the Manly
05-03-2014, 12:51 AM
I don't buy it.
Ok Cap doesnt just blink. He throws his shield ,misses. Happy now?

Ite
05-03-2014, 12:56 AM
Ok Cap doesnt just blink. He throws his shield ,misses. Happy now?

Well yeah a bit better but what I am talking about is 3 very very skilled fighters all working together at the same time with Captain's leadership, I think you make it much easier for Spidey than how it would be.

Matt the Manly
05-03-2014, 01:02 AM
Nope. Spiderman stomps

Ite
05-03-2014, 01:04 AM
Nope. Spiderman stomps

How fast is the stomp?

Guy Smiley
05-03-2014, 02:14 AM
How fast is the stomp?

Extremely fast. Daredevil is a bullet-timer. Spidey is quite a bit faster than Daredevil as mentioned earlier. Cap and Logan are Comic Book Peak Human at best and aren't getting anywhere near either of the other two in a fight if they don't permit it.

So, basically, this starts as Spidey vs. Daredevil, with Spidey putting DD down in a short skirmish before the other two can close. Daredevil can throw his baton at Spidey, but that's just disarming himself. Then we're dealing with a guy who flips a limo vs. a guy who lifts subway cars and has a speed advantage. This results in Spidey shattering whatever limbs DD tries to strike him with before he can land the blow, and ends with Spidey doing the same to his head or torso. Then Spidey does whatever he wants to crush Cap, with his webs and superior mobility making the shield completely useless as a guard, and even less useful if Cap throws it at him, since Pete can just web it out of the air.

At that point, Spidey being capable of lifting a bus, capable of sending Venom skidding through tarmac as shown by Hazard above, and capable of tearing down warehouse buildings, Spidey being ridiculously acrobatic, and Spidey being fast enough to dodge automatic gunfire, Spidey gets behind Steve and pops his head from his shoulders before he or Wolverine can properly react.

Then Cap's lifeless eyes and Daredevil's shattered corpse do indeed sit there and watch as Spidey does whatever he feels like to Logan, such as webbing him down, tearing out most of his organs, and filling the guy's lungs with web fluid so that he suffocates and his cells die of oxygen deprivation. Even if Wolvie is at a level of writing where he comes back from that, it's still worth a 10-count.

(Edit: Forgot the all-important 'Comic Book' before 'Peak Human'. Cap and Logan are of course generally nicely above real life olympian athletes.)

Guy Smiley
05-03-2014, 02:37 AM
I would say so...

Also, this lovely specimen, in which Hulk tries to double-hand smash Surfer, and Surfer... catches it. (He then proceeds to depower Hulk. Surfer is one scary mofo.)

690

The full page (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/125241/2988400-4990172785-20260.jpg)

Now, Hulk's also had plenty of feats of punching Surfer around, but Surfer therefore has feats of being punched around by Hulk, and not dying.

FaerieGodfather
05-03-2014, 02:44 AM
Old, old, old, but during the original Secret Wars, Spider-Man made the entire X-Men team look like chumps. Daredevil and Cap can both handle someone as strong as Spider-Man, with a little difficulty, but against someone with his strength, his speed, and Spider-Sense?

The only reason Spider-Man isn't one of the most dangerous people in the Marvel Universe is that he simply doesn't want to hurt anyone. Against anyone even halfway human, it wouldn't be a contest if he weren't holding back-- even against people who can take it.

heretic
05-03-2014, 05:49 AM
Well yeah a bit better but what I am talking about is 3 very very skilled fighters all working together at the same time with Captain's leadership, I think you make it much easier for Spidey than how it would be.Skill and leadership are all well and good, but when dealing with an opponent that not only is naturally far faster and stronger than all of them put together but possessing honest combat precognition? It simply is not enough to do more than say "The Hail-Mary area-effect ambush we set up did not work, now we run and hope he does not bother catching up".

Oswin
05-03-2014, 11:22 AM
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b215/Ginolioe/spiderdd.jpg

DD is fast, just not spidey-fast.

Shellhead
05-03-2014, 11:54 AM
Surfer's like; why the hell am I even here?

IIRC, according to the early Marvel Handbooks, Silver Surfer was using the power cosmic to pump up his strength for the more impressive feats. His default, non-amped strength was more in line with folks like Valkyrie and Colossus. One of his early fights with the Thing definitely showed the Surfer getting knocked around at first and then visibly using the power cosmic to enhance his own strength. Then he started walloping the Thing.

zhris
05-03-2014, 12:15 PM
Well yeah a bit better but what I am talking about is 3 very very skilled fighters all working together at the same time with Captain's leadership, I think you make it much easier for Spidey than how it would be.

When he wants to, Spidey moves ridiculously fast; there isn't time for leadership. By the time Cap shouts an order, Spidey is 3 moves ahead. He can incapacitate Cap and DD quite literally in seconds, deal with Logan at his liesure, then come back and finish off the other two before the webbing dissolves.

KingEli
05-03-2014, 01:28 PM
Every fight that Logan has had with Peter made him look like a fool(And Kaine cut up his heart).

To understand hard this beatdown is, remember Back in Black? Peter vs. The Kingpin? Pissed off Parker beat down Fisk like a common mugger to a pulp.

I forgot which storyline but again Parker was Pissed off and just went to town on people via speed, stealth & power, which including a scene of him tearing down a wearhouse with The Enforcers, Shocker & Sandman in it.

Parker not holding back is utterly terrifying.

Speed Force League Unlimited
05-04-2014, 04:31 AM
Spider-Man was greatly powered up in the late 80s/mid 90s, his strength level is now greatly diminished
DareDevil turned a limo on its side in the Bendis run, with his hands
Captain America is the top fighter in the Marvel Universe, the undisputed street leveled fighting champion, and with his shield they don't want Spider-Man to pin him down in a fight

Hazard
05-04-2014, 07:51 AM
Spider-Man was greatly powered up in the late 80s/mid 90s, his strength level is now greatly diminished
DareDevil turned a limo on its side in the Bendis run, with his hands
Captain America is the top fighter in the Marvel Universe, the undisputed street leveled fighting champion, and with his shield they don't want Spider-Man to pin him down in a fight

The scan I posted of Spider-Man punching Venom so hard he send him through tarmac and sending cars flying was recent.

From the same fight, Venom picks up and throws a van at Spider-Man who stops it with his body. He picks himself up after that.

In a recent Punisher Annual, a mind controlled Spider-Man chases Frank, while carrying a car on his hands like it's no big thing.

He also brings down an entire warehouse by breaking all the supports. That's recent too.

Mister Negative punched Spider-Man through two different buildings. That's recent too.




Guys like Spider-Man may deal with street level crime, but he's more mid-tier than street level. Cap really has no chance against him and neither does Daredevil.

Matt the Manly
05-04-2014, 08:04 AM
Spider-Man was greatly powered up in the late 80s/mid 90s, his strength level is now greatly diminished

His strength level has been lowered comparatively in recent years

Hes still leagues above the other two

Then there is his speec which has remained unaffected

DareDevil turned a limo on its side in the Bendis run, with his hands
peak human strength
Wolverine also held up an elevator briefly with one hand
Look at the beating Pete gave him


Captain America is the top fighter in the Marvel Universe, the undisputed street leveled fighting champion, and with his shield they don't want Spider-Man to pin him down in a fight
You have to back up that claim of "Cap is the undisputed champ" with feats considering that ,just to pick out one guy,his teammate here made him look like something of a joke in Waid's DD

master of read
05-04-2014, 01:06 PM
Spider-Man was greatly powered up in the late 80s/mid 90s, his strength level is now greatly diminished
DareDevil turned a limo on its side in the Bendis run, with his hands
Captain America is the top fighter in the Marvel Universe, the undisputed street leveled fighting champion, and with his shield they don't want Spider-Man to pin him down in a fight

gamora and mantis would like a word with you.

Pendaran
05-04-2014, 01:27 PM
Captain America is the top fighter in the Marvel Universe

Beaten to noting it, but Mantis alone, of the nerve striking out Thor, running across farmer's fields to shove people out of the way of shotgun blasts after they've been fired, riding the wave of energy blasts and various and sundry is.. well past Captain America.

big_adventure
05-04-2014, 01:40 PM
And we don't need to come anywhere close to Mantis level to get past Cap level:

Iron Fist
Shang Chi
Gorgon
Elektra
Daredevil

...are all well past Cap's level.

Pendaran
05-04-2014, 01:58 PM
You've opened a door to nothing but hearing how Cap is certainly beyond.. let's just pick that first one, a guy who caught a bullet in his hand while poisoned, fucked up a helicarrier with a punch, barehand deflected 40+ autofired flechettes in seconds without taking a single cut to his hands, while depowered snapped a steel girder in half with a strike.. because after all there was that one time they fought to a draw in a fight in a day where Danny had been knocked out, repeatedly worn down, spent it initially holding back..

And Shang Chi? So what that he deflects bullets with his bracelets, elbows his way throw a cave wall, endured days and days of deprivation then fought a horde of dudes after it, I'm sure there was that time he sparred evenly with Cap.

Annd so forth

Guy1
05-04-2014, 01:59 PM
You've opened a door to nothing but hearing how Cap is certainly beyond.. let's just pick that first one, a guy who caught a bullet in his hand while poisoned, fucked up a helicarrier with a punch, barehand deflected 40+ autofired flechettes in seconds without taking a single cut to his hands, while depowered snapped a steel girder in half with a strike.. because after all there was that one time they fought to a draw in a fight in a day where Danny had been knocked out, repeatedly worn down, spent it initially holding back..

And Shang Chi? So what that he deflects bullets with his bracelets, elbows his way throw a cave wall, endured days and days of deprivation then fought a horde of dudes after it, I'm sure there was that time he sparred evenly with Cap.

Annd so forth

Classic Fisk?

Pendaran
05-04-2014, 02:00 PM
Classic Fisk?

I'm not sure how someone could find a way to say Cap was beyond Classic Fisk, but I imagine we'll hear something.

*thinks*

It will admittedly have to be extremely creative.

Guy1
05-04-2014, 02:22 PM
I'm not sure how someone could find a way to say Cap was beyond Classic Fisk, but I imagine we'll hear something.

*thinks*

It will admittedly have to be extremely creative.

Probably come down to Shield Toss VS Desk Toss. :D

Dark Soul # 7
05-04-2014, 02:31 PM
Probably come down to Shield Toss VS Desk Toss. :D
The shield bounces off the desk.

Desk wins.

Primetime Harder
05-04-2014, 03:11 PM
The shield bounces off the desk.

Desk wins.

Ahh, Kingpin's desk - second only to Abridged King Yemma's in terms of raw power.

The Drunkard Kid
05-04-2014, 03:43 PM
I'm not sure how someone could find a way to say Cap was beyond Classic Fisk, but I imagine we'll hear something.

*thinks*

It will admittedly have to be extremely creative.

Cap should be able to surpass Fisk in most Swimsuit Competitions, as well as any Best Hawkeye/Hank Pym/Mar-Vell/Other Short Haired Blond Male Avengers Impersonator Contests that may arise.

Pendaran
05-04-2014, 04:26 PM
Cap should be able to surpass Fisk in most Swimsuit Competitions, as well as any Best Hawkeye/Hank Pym/Mar-Vell/Other Short Haired Blond Male Avengers Impersonator Contests that may arise.

Pft, Fisk would totally have those contests fixed.