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  1. #256
    Fantastic Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    I think Korath deserves some credit.

    It is true that a society so isolated will have problems. Such a society can't be a utopia like it is shown in lots of stories.

    His idea is based on rejecting the Amazons, and not glorifying them. Say like a rebellious Diana who rejects barabarism and accepts noble values which can't be the monopoly of any one society.


    Not a bad idea to explore in stories.

    I don't like it. It is cruel. But this is the point here. Amazons are cruel in this version. Very relevant in these times when we are interested in raising up walls to exclude those who are different from us.

    While i stand by that i love the original idea of women leading the world, the idea of rejecting a society based on exclusion is not bad at all.

    I have not read New 52. So i don't know how they handled it. But the Diana i know will never stay silent and let innocents be killed.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; Today at 01:53 AM.

  2. #257
    Ultimate Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Oh my god... I'll stop here. Clearly, we don't have the same taste at all. I won't bother answering a quote war by peoples who aren't even able to acknowledge that a segregationist society is, by its very nature, wrong.
    Has anyone SAID that segregationist societies are okay? No? Then it's been acknowledged.

    Oh, and good news! Most versions of the Amazons who are actually worth reading about (a.k.a. Pretty much any version OTHER than Azz's) AREN'T segregationist societies by choice. In Marston and Perez's version, they were actually trying to interact with Man's World and tried to help men see the wrongness of their ways.

    That, by definition, requires interaction with men and the ultimate goal was to change the world into the kind of place where men and women could live together in peace and equality. They only became segregationist societies when they were REMOVED from the world by their gods, which made them unable to continue interacting with men. Azz's Amazons didn't even have THAT excuse. They COULD interact with Man's World any time they wanted and they only chose to do so to murder innocent men. When forced to interact with men, they were angry and bitter about it and clearly would've happily murdered every man they could find.

    Heck, my favorite version of the Amazons was the animated movie's take on them and THAT version of the Amazons SPECIFICALLY stated that the Amazons weren't a segregationist society at all. Hippolyta says it in no uncertain terms: the Amazons had men within their ranks. They lost them because Ares killed them all and then they were removed from the world before they could even THINK about replenishing their losses.

    No good version of the Amazons was a segregationist society by choice. Only Azz's version can claim that distinction.
    Last edited by Vanguard-01; Today at 03:12 AM.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  3. #258
    Fantastic Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Didn't they have magic? If Azzarello tried to make them backward, with no scientific advancement they were still coming from the Greek Gods. A way would be that they knew a bit of magic or maybe a few of them knew magic like in Harry Potter(muggles and wizards). This appears too unnecessary on the part of the writer. Was it simply to make it edgy?
    Last edited by Soubhagya; Today at 05:11 AM.

  4. #259
    Ultimate Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    Didn't they have magic? If Azzarello tried to make them backward, with no scientific advancement they were still coming from the Greek Gods. A way would be that they knew a bit of magic or maybe a few of them knew magic like in Harry Potter(muggles and wizards). This appears too unnecessary on the part of the writer. Was it simply to make it edgy?
    In fairness, Azzarello can hardly be blamed for taking away the Amazons advanced science. Plenty of other writers had already done that, including Perez. The decision to make the Amazons more backward dates back decades.

    The magic, though? Yeah, they used to have it and there was no good excuse for getting rid of it too.

    So yeah, they could have has magic, which would've allowed them to do things like casting sleep spells on the men and slipping away while they slept or concealing their ships with illusions or whatever.

    Yep. Azz took their magic away to be edgy. He wanted them to murder men and he cut them off from every other conceivable alternative to make it seem like they were at least somewhat justified in doing it.

    Of course, he totally seemed to forget that there are plenty of real world alternatives they could've used too. Like drugging the men after the sex so they'd stay asleep. Heck, men tend to get lazy and sleepy after sex anyway. It wouldn't take that much to make sure they're all asleep. Then they just had to slip away and make sure they were long gone by the time the men woke up. Until recent years, it was pretty much impossible to track a ship at sea unless you were looking right at it. As long as they were out of sight by the time the men woke up, they would never be able to find Themiscyra.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  5. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Oh my god... I'll stop here. Clearly, we don't have the same taste at all. I won't bother answering a quote war by peoples who aren't even able to acknowledge that a segregationist society is, by its very nature, wrong.
    The Perez Amazons are not segregated. They are cut off and isolated and the gradually learn to integrate.

    And I can think of a lot of indigenous folks who probably wish they could have segregated themselves from the Anglo-Saxons over the last 600 years.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  6. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    I think Korath deserves some credit.

    It is true that a society so isolated will have problems. Such a society can't be a utopia like it is shown in lots of stories.

    His idea is based on rejecting the Amazons, and not glorifying them. Say like a rebellious Diana who rejects barabarism and accepts noble values which can't be the monopoly of any one society.


    Not a bad idea to explore in stories.

    I don't like it. It is cruel. But this is the point here. Amazons are cruel in this version. Very relevant in these times when we are interested in raising up walls to exclude those who are different from us.

    While i stand by that i love the original idea of women leading the world, the idea of rejecting a society based on exclusion is not bad at all.

    I have not read New 52. So i don't know how they handled it. But the Diana i know will never stay silent and let innocents be killed.
    Superman can't be real. His powers make no sense. There is no planet Krypton. All these things and the Amazons too are fiction.

    Now as to Utopian societies - I am not so convinced. It may not have been utopia, but the Aboriginal tribes of Australia had a pretty good easy life for 40,000 years until a bunch of white folks turned up and all but destroyed their culture in a matter of decades. In their isolation they lacked many of the technological achievements of the Europeans, but they were much happier.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  7. #262
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Oh my god... I'll stop here. Clearly, we don't have the same taste at all. I won't bother answering a quote war by peoples who aren't even able to acknowledge that a segregationist society is, by its very nature, wrong.
    The Amazons wanting to be left alone after the outside world slandered their reputation, destroyed their homes and attempted to kill/enslave them (all the while raping several of them in the process) is not "wrong," especially as they are not harming anyone in return. Plenty of us have acknowledged that the Amazons cutting themselves off from the outside world isn't ideal (and many comics have explored that as well), but we understand why they took the chance Aphrodite gave them. Writing them off as villains for not wanting to be near men after suffering so much at their hands, and not doing anything to harm members of the opposite sex in the meantime, is what is wrong here. It's an insensitive way to address the issue.

    An issue that has been address since at least Perez, if not before, so Azzarello was not exploring any new ground here. And exploring it in much more cliche and less nuanced ways than before.

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