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  1. #91
    Astonishing Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    In Azz case but that's the problem we saw that the amazons made great and amazing weapons they traded their sons for simple weapons nothing divine or other weapons. That's dumb. If the amazons did explore man's world weapons they shouldn't use our methods but mix it with mystic objects that can be images. I would get if they couldn't keep their sons due to problems . They sold their soles but got weapons that wouldn't help with defeating monsters. At least without rucka's or others we saw other greater weapons these amazons have to get help from others .

    not in history the amazons weren't generally cruel . The Greek myth makes them up to be this way but they weren't. They were a mixed culture not just a warrior culture since there is other occupations. They valued more than war. Even in Wonder Woman's history .
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 09-06-2017 at 01:42 PM.
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  2. #92
    Mighty Member Gemini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    No, you consider it a problem.
    The Amazons on the other hand only have the problem of being unable to procreate in any other way than the natural one.

    So thats their problem. Their solution was to go out and find some and make sure they didn't tell anyone about it. Then they had the excess problem of a potential male birth 9 months later thats less than desirable, fortunately for everyone the boy children could be turned into a currency.
    As far as the Amazons are concerned, there is no problem in this system.
    The amazons aren't real so that distinction wasn't necessary and the story clearly portrays their rape and murder and enslavement as morally wrong. So, if the problem wasn't that they didn't have the brain power to make technology to find an alternative way to reproduce and create their own weapons then the problem is that they are just that evil and savage.
    Last edited by Gemini; 09-06-2017 at 01:39 PM.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    In Azz case but that's the problem we saw that the amazons made great and amazing weapons they traded their sons for simple weapons nothing divine or other weapons. That's dumb. If the amazons did explore man's world weapons they shouldn't use our methods but mix it with mystic objects that can be images. I would get if they couldn't keep their sons due to problems .

    They sold their soles but got weapons that wouldn't help with defeating monsters. At least without rucka's or others we saw other greater weapons these amazons have to get help from others .

    not in history the amazons weren't generally cruel . The Greek myth makes them up to be this way but they weren't. They were a mixed culture not just a warrior culture since there is other occupations. They valued more than war. Even in Wonder Woman's history .
    Did we? Where? The only weapon we know for a fact the Amazons ever made that was exceptional was the Purple Death Ray, a weapon that was never used and one it's creator hated. And now they get their arms and armor from the God of the Forge himself... there is nothing simple about that kind of craftmanship.

    Superman defeats plety of monsters using his bare fists, as does Diana... swords and spears have proven time and again at being as effective as you could ask a weapon to be, like any weapon in fact.

    The Amazons didn't technically exist, they were a by product of knowing that to the east there lived women who had to manage pretty much everything while the menfolk were away on raids. And ofc they have other aspects to their society, they just dont have anything to do with this part. Circe actually explained it once that Hepahstus and the Amazons made a deal, that deal is the same today as it was when it was first made, the Amazons do not place a list of orders with him because that was not part of the bargain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrodite's Champion View Post
    The amazons aren't real so that distinction wasn't necessary and the story clearly portrays their rape and murder and enslavement as morally wrong.

    So, if the problem wasn't that they didn't have the brain power to make technology to find an alternative way to reproduce and create their own weapons then the problem is that they are just that evil and savage.
    Does it? Hephaestus doesn't condemn them, neither does Lennox, Diana or even Eros. Hephaestus may lament it's like this, but he is not doing anything beyond that.

    In your eyes. In theirs it no more horrific than how they get a beef steak.

  4. #94
    Mighty Member Gemini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post

    Does it? Hephaestus doesn't condemn them, neither does Lennox, Diana or even Eros. Hephaestus may lament it's like this, but he is not doing anything beyond that.

    In your eyes. In theirs it no more horrific than how they get a beef steak.
    Diana tries to free them so she absolutely has a problem with it but from what I can remember she never revisited the problem under Azzarello's pen but she did under Finch. So you may be right that in story the slavery bit isn't exactly a problem and even the rape seems less condemned because most of the sailors were having their fantasies fulfilled but the murder of the sailors by the Amazons was portrayed as an unfortunate reality, at the very least, since those men still feared for their lives which is why they didn't want to leave Hephestus.

    No matter how you cut it though Azzarello's treatment of the Amazons still makes them an inhumane and backwards stereotype. Also, I think the idea that they cared so little for innocent human life that they didn't bother to find a new way to go about any of what they did makes them worse than if they were just too stupid to figure it out ethically. Which is a shame because looking back on it I like a lot of these design changes and more greek looking architecture he put in place. Bringing back the sexist stereotype was the reason these Amazons could never work.
    Last edited by Gemini; 09-06-2017 at 05:00 PM.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgzip View Post
    Actually, there is some logic in that. When I saw Paradise Island / Themiscyra in the movie, I thought 'well, they have a nice city, and forest, but where are the farms?' Given that the Amazons are on a bronze age level of technology, they would need to spend most of their time and ressources simply to produce enough food. Also, they need mines for coal and iron (to make swords and armor), they need clay (for babies and pottery), etc. Is the island even big enough for all that?

    If you introduce steam engines, you need much more coal. For petrol engines, you not only need crude oil, you also need a refinery to make gasoline. You can not introduce some isolated item of technology without a pyramid of other technology to support it. Unless you want the Amazons to regulary raid human cities for fuel, batteries, spares etc., it doesn't work. The island is a closed economical and ecological system (similar to those 'Biosphere' experiments), and that allows only a very basic level of technology (magic excluded).

    The whole idea is to be completely self-reliant and not needing any contact to the outside world (except for the sex raids, and they leave no witnesses there). It is not enough that the humans can not find the island - it is necessary that nobody know about the existence of the Amazons. If the humans suspected that there is a race of immortal women, they would tear down heaven and hell to find them, and learn the secret of their immortality.

    Also, as immortals, they probably do not feel the need to change or improve their way of life. If you have read 'Demon Knights', you may remember that the Amazons have learned the location of the Holy Grail (from one of the sex raid victims, actually). The Knights (who are searching for the Grail) ask Hippolyta why the Amazons never made an attempt to retrieve the Grail, and she replies 'Why should we? We are already immortal.' (BTW, we learn here that the Amazons at least take home books from their raids. They have the Kamasutra.)

    Later in the same story, the only mortal among the Knights (al-Jabr) tries to explain to the immortals (Exoristos, Shiny Knight etc.) how a hot-air balloon works, and asks them 'Did you never ask yourself why smoke always rises from a fire?', and they all look disinterested and reply 'No'. To which al-Jabr sighs 'The gift of immortality is wasted on the immortals'.

    So, the Amazons are not stupid - being immortal, their mind works differently; and they know about the limited ressources of their island.
    You're right, hgzip, that there is (arguably) some logic to it. However, one of the biggest problems is that so much of the rest of the story is not logical.

    This is contrasted clearly between Themyscira and New Genesis. Both are secluded and resistant to visitors. Both wish to be self-reliant. Only one of these is highly advanced technologically. The one that's led by Highfather. We see it again with Heph. He's isolated and doesn't take kindly to visitors. Yet, he, and his rescued boys, are doing just fine with their technology and artistry.

    The Amazons don't even get to be good at the one thing Azzarello claims they can do as both Orion and Heph and his crew of male Amazons all have to save WW and the female Amazons.

    So, no, it's not actually a logical look at secluded societies, because it's a very biased and one-sided degradation of the female led society. It's playing powerful women as out of control - a sexist stereotype that's been used for millennia as justification to subjugate women.
    Last edited by Awonder; 09-06-2017 at 04:29 PM.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    And like I've said, time and again, if this story remained canon, the only difference would be that the Azzarello Amazons were more heavily damaged by the experience.
    Not that we would know given that Azzarello was too lazy and gave us next to nothing about their experience.

    Oh yes, and they were the same Amazons who wiped out most of central Washington DC.
    I have to ask - did you like Amazons Attack? Would you call it a good WW story?

    It's like complaining about the well beings of al orca's because a fraction of them live in Sea World... there a better things to get upset over.
    A fraction of people in countries like the U.S. are not murdered - but, we still care when murders occur, no?

    It was broken to begin with, and if it wasn't then it should be because otherwise it's an idea that cant be used for anything other than as a painting. If you want perfect Amazons, you might aswell kill them off entirely and forever so no one can change anything about them.

    Perfection in an ongoing medium is a cancer... or rather a petrification of an idea thats reached a point where noone can do anything with it without making it imperfect.
    I dont care about perfect Amazons, I want Amazons you can use to tell stories about in the present continuity, not in past tense.
    Ah, the "perfect" lie. You've been around WW long enough to know that the Amazons weren't perfect - you've even been citing their imperfections prior to Azzarello, right? So, why resort to the "perfect" nonsense?

    To me, the funniest part is that Marston's Amazons were FAR more creative and innovative than Azzarello's. It's only Azzarello's stunted writing that stunts them and their story. Characters have no real control, so all the real limitations are in the creators.

    Spaceguns and the other techno-junk you always find in secluded societies that never make any lick of sense.
    You mean like the "techno-junk" Orion and New Genesis have in their secluded society? Yeah, makes no sense. It also makes no sense that an island with no advanced tech or magic has remained hidden all these years. But, you buy into that nonsense, right?

    I really think they shouldn't, they might aswell move to Gorilla City if they had it.
    So, it's fine for secluded gorillas to have advanced technology, just not women. Great message for a WW story no less.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    No, you consider it a problem.
    The Amazons on the other hand only have the problem of being unable to procreate in any other way than the natural one.

    So thats their problem. Their solution was to go out and find some and make sure they didn't tell anyone about it. Then they had the excess problem of a potential male birth 9 months later thats less than desirable, fortunately for everyone the boy children could be turned into a currency.
    As far as the Amazons are concerned, there is no problem in this system.
    Except even Azzarello's Amazons claim to not like what they've been doing - "we never wanted to." It's more of his illusion of depth without actually taking the time to create actual depth, but, at least it's something. Something they could have addressed at some point had Azzarello allowed them to - but that would not be dirty enough for the purpose of degrading the female-centric elements to the story.
    Last edited by Awonder; 09-06-2017 at 05:09 PM.

  7. #97
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    You mean like the "techno-junk" Orion and New Genesis have in their secluded society? Yeah, makes no sense. It also makes no sense that an island with no advanced tech or magic has remained hidden all these years. But, you buy into that nonsense, right?
    Or Atlantis, which has both tech and magic.

    Or those secluded super intelligent gorillas in Africa who still managed to create a high tech society.

    But women? Create an advanced society when left on their own for several thousand years?

    Somehow that is unrealistic

  8. #98
    Astonishing Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    The amazons made invisible jets, . They were able to repair a technology they didn't know about. I'm just saying Azz's amazons didn't seem to have the same weapons like the amazons era. I mean yea swords, arrows and all the but something about them comes off differently. Why can't the amazons more mystical technology advance. I mean it would help with the doom gate. Being able to monitor it but also for entertainment purposes. We know golden age amazons had movies and communicate devices
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  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Diana tries to free them so she absolutely has a problem with it but from what I can remember she never revisited the problem under Azzarello's pen but she did under Finch. So you may be right that in story the slavery bit isn't exactly a problem and even the rape seems less condemned because most of the sailors were having their fantasies fulfilled but the murder of the sailors by the Amazons was portrayed as an unfortunate reality, at the very least, since those men still feared for their lives which is why they didn't want to leave Hephestus.

    No matter how you cut it though Azzarello's treatment of the Amazons still makes them an inhumane and backwards stereotype.
    Also, I think the idea that they cared so little for innocent human life that they didn't bother to find a new way to go about any of what they did makes them worse than if they were just too stupid to figure it out ethically.
    Which is a shame because looking back on it I like a lot of these design changes and more greek looking architecture he put in place. Bringing back the sexist stereotype was the reason these Amazons could never work.
    See, the thing there is that what Diana is objecting to back then was that she thought Hephaestus kept them as slaves... not how they got there or how they came to be.
    No, those men did not wan to leave Hepahestus because that's where they believed their only family lived, or rather the part that cared about them. See the thing about all of that is that Hephaestus kinda became the patriarch of these outcasts because he pitied them as he himself is an outcast of Olympus due to his ugliness in Hera's eyes.

    Compared to who? And to what? They are still appear as technologically advanced as the Roman Empire and the other advanced cultures of their time, and still be more humane because they at least dont just kill people for fun and entertainment or engage in human sacrifices.
    I am reminded of a pic someone made of Marvel's Hercules planting his knee in the Sentry's balls with the line under it: 'Rules of engagement: Note that most systems of chivalry and honorable combat were developed several centuries after the Ancient Gods. So don't expect them to follow those codes.' The same applies here, you are expecting the Amazons to follow a system that they themselves predate by thousands of years... and it's not just as a society, it's the Amazons themselves on the accounts of them all being immortal.
    It's a pity then you can't accept an even partial attempt at an accurate depiction of a greco-roman society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    Not that we would know given that Azzarello was too lazy and gave us next to nothing about their experience.
    Or he just counted on readers being familar enough with the story so he didn't have to repeat it.

    I have to ask - did you like Amazons Attack? Would you call it a good WW story?
    I don't mind Amazons Attack as much as some people do, because it for once demonstrated the Amazons as being a military force to be reckoned with not just an endless line of easily disposable hippies with a funny theme going. But whenever I like it or not doesn't matter, it was part of the canon on equal footing to Perez's and Rucka's runs.

    A fraction of people in countries like the U.S. are not murdered - but, we still care when murders occur, no?
    To be honest I dont think anyone really cares unless they actually know the victim(s).

    Like we've recently seen all the focus of the western world being directed to Texas and Harvey's destruction, a lot of the US is ofc sending its prayers (which are useless) and donations (much better) to help out. Meanwhile 1800 people have been killed by floods in southeast asia, and as far as I can tell, no one gives a hoot about them.

    Ah, the "perfect" lie. You've been around WW long enough to know that the Amazons weren't perfect - you've even been citing their imperfections prior to Azzarello, right? So, why resort to the "perfect" nonsense?

    To me, the funniest part is that Marston's Amazons were FAR more creative and innovative than Azzarello's. It's only Azzarello's stunted writing that stunts them and their story. Characters have no real control, so all the real limitations are in the creators.
    Because that's the state people like yourself appear to want the Amazons to exist in, you dont want them to have flaws or foibles, or you are simply going to ignore that they are flaws, and if a writer decides to introduce some you can't ignore then gods may have mercy on the writers soul because there will be a lot of complaining about it on the forums.

    Marstons Amazons was a propaganda poster for his personal vision of a perfect world, not a story telling tool... thats why you can't really use them in that kind of unaltered state.
    I dont really get what you are aiming at with all the 'stunted' mentions? As far as I can tell Azzarello wrote a Wonder Woman story but left behind a story telling frame of the Amazons for primarily others to work with, he didn't flesh it out more because he didn't need to and clearly had no interest in wasting pages on it. Much like how Rucka decided to skimp on his big mystery world idea.

    You mean like the "techno-junk" Orion and New Genesis have in their secluded society? Yeah, makes no sense. It also makes no sense that an island with no advanced tech or magic has remained hidden all these years. But, you buy into that nonsense, right?
    Thats not a secluded society, and you damn well know that. The New Gods have all been around for hundreds of thousands of years, but they still cover countless generations of people. And not to mention they cover worlds and has the greatest of all dynamos for technological development: endless war.


    So, it's fine for secluded gorillas to have advanced technology, just not women. Great message for a WW story no less.
    Are the gorilla's individually able to live for thousands of years and have their society build and prosper undisturbed for just as long? No? Then thats your answer.

    Also you may want to consider the message of the Amazons still remain, as they were a society of women who managed to raise a nation on equal footing with everyone else in a far more brutal era of human history, one where women largely had no rights or capabilities in any legal sense of the words.

    Except even Azzarello's Amazons claim to not like what they've been doing - "we never wanted to." It's more of his illusion of depth without actually taking the time to create actual depth, but, at least it's something. Something they could have addressed at some point had Azzarello allowed them to - but that would not be dirty enough for the purpose of degrading the female-centric elements to the story.
    Not every comicbook is written with the idea of the writer holding your hand throughout the whole story as if you were a child, sometimes the writer thinks you are old and more capable than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Or Atlantis, which has both tech and magic
    Also has 7 kingdoms, don't live much longer than humans, and is quite often at war with each other if not people on the surface.

    O
    r those secluded super intelligent gorillas in Africa who still managed to create a high tech society.
    Broad strokes the same reply as above.

    But women? Create an advanced society when left on their own for several thousand years?
    Yes, why didn't Robinson Crusoe build a helicopter to fly him home when he had all that time on his hands?

    Somehow that is unrealistic
    Or just much less plausible.

    Why would the Amazons be advanced or peaceful if they have been left alone for so long with little to no other human contact?

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    It's a pity then you can't accept an even partial attempt at an accurate depiction of a greco-roman society.
    Lol. This is not even close to an "accurate depiction of a greco-roman society," nor was that the point. Nor are the Amazons grecro or Roman.

    Or he just counted on readers being familar enough with the story so he didn't have to repeat it.
    A) The entire point of the New 52 relaunch was to try and get people to read books they weren't already reading.

    B) Azzarello "repeated" plenty. A new generation of godly kids? Repeat. A reformation of Hera? Repeat. Kill Ares and become the god of war? Repeat.

    I don't mind Amazons Attack as much as some people do, because it for once demonstrated the Amazons as being a military force to be reckoned with not just an endless line of easily disposable hippies with a funny theme going. But whenever I like it or not doesn't matter, it was part of the canon on equal footing to Perez's and Rucka's runs.
    Not all "canon" is of equal merit. Besides, as we all know, canon gets changed and/or tossed out all the time.

    To be honest I dont think anyone really cares unless they actually know the victim(s).
    Not true. Sure, we tend to care more when it hits closer to home. But we still take notice and try to catch the murders of people we don't know.

    Because that's the state people like yourself appear to want the Amazons to exist in, you dont want them to have flaws or foibles, or you are simply going to ignore that they are flaws, and if a writer decides to introduce some you can't ignore then gods may have mercy on the writers soul because there will be a lot of complaining about it on the forums.
    You mean that's your assumption. I've never said I don't want the Amazons to have flaws.

    Marston's Amazons was a propaganda poster for his personal vision of a perfect world, not a story telling tool... thats why you can't really use them in that kind of unaltered state.
    Marston used them just fine - fact is, his version is far more creative. Azzarello keeps the stunted because that's his writing. Yes, there was a "propaganda" element to Marston. Azzarello's has it's own 'propaganda' as well - it's just propaganda you buy into.

    I dont really get what you are aiming at with all the 'stunted' mentions? As far as I can tell Azzarello wrote a Wonder Woman story but left behind a story telling frame of the Amazons for primarily others to work with, he didn't flesh it out more because he didn't need to and clearly had no interest in wasting pages on it. Much like how Rucka decided to skimp on his big mystery world idea.
    Fleshing out a story like this is the hard work. Without it, it's shallow.

    Thats not a secluded society, and you damn well know that. The New Gods have all been around for hundreds of thousands of years, but they still cover countless generations of people. And not to mention they cover worlds and has the greatest of all dynamos for technological development: endless war.
    Read the book. Both Highfather and Heph speak and ar spoke of as though they want to stay as secluded from others as they can. Yes, they get out - so do the Amazons. But it is only the Amazons that do not progress. That's why it's problematic.

    Are the gorilla's individually able to live for thousands of years and have their society build and prosper undisturbed for just as long? No? Then thats your answer.
    So, not living long makes you more technological? That doesn't make sense. Imagine if all our greatest minds had not died, but instead could keep learning and teaching for thousands of years.

    Also you may want to consider the message of the Amazons still remain, as they were a society of women who managed to raise a nation on equal footing with everyone else in a far more brutal era of human history, one where women largely had no rights or capabilities in any legal sense of the words.
    Yes, they came from a brutal era - the whole point of the Amazons in WW was that they were NOT the same as their neighbors.

    Not every comicbook is written with the idea of the writer holding your hand throughout the whole story as if you were a child, sometimes the writer thinks you are old and more capable than that.
    Oh please. "If you don't like it, it's because it's too deep for you." If you can't debate the merits and criticisms, then this is a childish argument.

    Or just much less plausible.

    Why would the Amazons be advanced or peaceful if they have been left alone for so long with little to no other human contact?
    "Plausible" based on what? Since 2012, I've been asking Azzarello fans to name a single female led society that had wide-spread male infantice. NO ONE has ever given me an answer. Your "plausible" is an assumption that goes counter to the entire human history as we know it.

    Moreover, with so much else in story that is far beyond reality - this is a superhero comic, after all - why is it that only the Amazons are restricted to "plausibility"? Super science gorillas = a-ok! High tech women = wth? No. That doesn't work.
    Last edited by Awonder; 09-10-2017 at 05:37 PM.

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    I wouldn't use Amazons Attack as good example of the Amazons being a competent military force. Putting aside the mess that story's "plot" was, the Amazons are only dangerous because of ridiculous amounts of plot armor and informed attributes (we're told they're technologically advanced but we never see it). And it isn't as if the US government been written to be particularly effective anyway so this is the equivalent of picking on a child that can't fight back

  12. #102
    Astonishing Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I would like them to be tech advance. I like the tech seen in Earth One. Invisible jets and guns. They still use swords and arrows due to both mixing well. The swords and bows should not only be simply bows and sword but able to be more like mystic wepaoms.


    The question is if the amazons aren't like their new 52 counterparts why should they give up their sons? One of my reaosns is if I look at Hera in many eras of Wonder Woman she goes to ally to jealously . Didn't she kick Paradise Island which causes something to happen? Why not have her curse the island so no man can set one thebsialnd or be turned into a monster at midnight. So maybe they should give their sons to the blacksmith but threat visit their sons often and if their can have their sons visit the island but not often
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    I have no idea why the Amazons have to be exactly like Ancient Greeks. The Wakandans aren't exactly like any of the many African tribes native to that continent, and nobody complains about it.

    And Martians, Atlanteans and Kryptonians aren't even real. LOL
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  14. #104
    Astonishing Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    How different should they be to the Greek gods?
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  15. #105
    Mighty Member Gemini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    See, the thing there is that what Diana is objecting to back then was that she thought Hephaestus kept them as slaves... not how they got there or how they came to be.
    No, those men did not wan to leave Hepahestus because that's where they believed their only family lived, or rather the part that cared about them. See the thing about all of that is that Hephaestus kinda became the patriarch of these outcasts because he pitied them as he himself is an outcast of Olympus due to his ugliness in Hera's eyes.

    Compared to who? And to what? They are still appear as technologically advanced as the Roman Empire and the other advanced cultures of their time, and still be more humane because they at least dont just kill people for fun and entertainment or engage in human sacrifices.
    I am reminded of a pic someone made of Marvel's Hercules planting his knee in the Sentry's balls with the line under it: 'Rules of engagement: Note that most systems of chivalry and honorable combat were developed several centuries after the Ancient Gods. So don't expect them to follow those codes.' The same applies here, you are expecting the Amazons to follow a system that they themselves predate by thousands of years... and it's not just as a society, it's the Amazons themselves on the accounts of them all being immortal.
    It's a pity then you can't accept an even partial attempt at an accurate depiction of a greco-roman society.

    Yeah they did do it out of love I misread the panel but I am not buying the idea that Diana wasn't moved at all by the way the Amazons had sons. She was clearly dissappointed and hurt ever since that was revealed to her and just reading the mood of the issue it seems to be about much more than Hephaestus having slaves as I don't understand why she would put so much faith in a god and given the entire arc of this issue was involved in it makes no sense that this wouldnt be mostly or at least a major part of her disillusionment with the Amazons and her coping with the lies she was told as a young child. I have a lot to say about Azzarello's writing choices but I'm sure he's more talented of a writer than that.

    I think its clear that you and I just want totally different things from this comic so its pointless to have this conversation. I dont read DC comics for realism and I don't care about accurate depictions of greco-roman society. What Azzarello did makes little sense in the genre of superhero comics and his entire approach seemed more focused on his own personal desires than on Wonder Woman or what I read her for.

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