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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I have no idea why the Amazons have to be exactly like Ancient Greeks. The Wakandans aren't exactly like any of the many African tribes native to that continent, and nobody complains about it.

    And Martians, Atlanteans and Kryptonians aren't even real. LOL
    I think Wakanda may be the best parallel to Themyscira - they may not be the most "realistic," but for both of them, that's a big part of the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    I think its clear that you and I just want totally different things from this comic so its pointless to have this conversation.
    That's part of what makes the conversation interesting.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Yeah they did do it out of love I misread the panel...

    I think its clear that you and I just want totally different things from this comic...
    I didn't see that tbh because Diana during Azzarello's run was very much about dealing with one problem at a time as they came to her. Could she have been disappointed in the Amazons actions, certainly, but was there anything she could or would do about in that moment? No. And thats the great thing about Diana, when she finally was able to start doing something about all of this when the Amazons were returned to normal, she did... but she didn't come down on her sisters like an angry norse god.

    Superhero comics are many things, horror, sci-fi, action, pulp and so on. We may want different things from it, I am primarily after well-told stories, and if a character is based on real or pseudo-events and people it just makes it all the better for me that they remain accurate to their sources... which is why I have had so little interest in stuff like Marvel's Thor despite being far closer to home for me personally due to where I live, because that comic shares about as much common ground with Norse-mythology as a dog-poop does the Mona Lisa.

    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    Lol. This is not even close to an "accurate depiction of a greco-roman society," nor was that the point. Nor are the Amazons grecro or Roman.
    And you are a student of history to know this then?

    The Amazons, not their real-life Scythian counterparts, have always been depicted as Greek... and like everything Greek was later stolen and added to the Roman's systems of beliefs.

    A) The entire point of the New 52 relaunch was to try and get people to read books they weren't already reading.

    B) Azzarello "repeated" plenty. A new generation of godly kids? Repeat. A reformation of Hera? Repeat. Kill Ares and become the god of war? Repeat.
    A) And if Wonder Woman had been an obscure character a recap might have been necessary... but she just happens to be the most well-known female superhero ever created.

    B)
    New generation: Been done since antiquity when plenty of Greek kings liked to draw their family trees back to Heracles.
    Reforming Hera: When was this done? It's not been in a WW book since Hera was practically invisible before the New 52.
    Kill Ares: yes that might seem dull if you've played God of War too many times... but Kratos isn't Diana.


    Not all "canon" is of equal merit. Besides, as we all know, canon gets changed and/or tossed out all the time.
    Funny thing there... yes it is, all stuff thats in canon is actually there on equal footing and merit compared to everything else there. What isn't equal is what the audience like or dislike of it.

    Not true. Sure, we tend to care more when it hits closer to home. But we still take notice and try to catch the murders of people we don't know.
    Nice fantasy, not much to do with reality. Prayers and hashtags don't change anything on their own.

    You mean that's your assumption. I've never said I don't want the Amazons to have flaws.
    Amuse me then, what kind of flaws would you consider acceptable for the Amazons to have?

    Marston used them just fine - fact is, his version is far more creative. Azzarello keeps the stunted because that's his writing. Yes, there was a "propaganda" element to Marston.

    Azzarello's has it's own 'propaganda' as well - it's just propaganda you buy into.
    He used them as propaganda, nothing more... like a North Korean military parade is meant to display strength and unity, not just so the Kims could have a look at his own hardware.

    Ok, so whats the propaganda element of what Azzarello did?

    Fleshing out a story like this is the hard work. Without it, it's shallow.
    And why would you need to flesh out small parts of a story thats largely unconnected to the main story?

    Like take LotR as an example, the book that is, there is a massive world behind that book... but the people we only really get any depth on within the book is the Hobbits, we get very very little on the Dwarves, we get very little on the Elves even though we pass through one of the most elf-like areas in the world during it and we get relatively little on Rohan and Gondor. Which is all kind of strange because besides the main protagonist being a Hobbit, Hobbits are the one race in Middle Earth where the Ring War scoots over their heads and the only part they as a people really play in it is booting Saruman out of Bag End.
    And somehow that book works just fine on it's own despite all the stuff Tolkien had to move into the appendix's and other books... and probably would have moved more into if he had an editor.

    Read the book. Both Highfather and Heph speak and ar spoke of as though they want to stay as secluded from others as they can. Yes, they get out - so do the Amazons. But it is only the Amazons that do not progress. That's why it's problematic.
    High Father is not doing a very good job then considering New Genesis has long been the center of a vast interstellar protectorate that includes Earth, likewise Apokolips reaches out to other planets to make deals and conquests. So perhaps he was referring to the Bugs living on New Genesis' surface.

    As for Hepaehestus... he's the god of the forge, if anyone is going to be in a constant state of R&D it's going to be him...

    So, not living long makes you more technological? That doesn't make sense. Imagine if all our greatest minds had not died, but instead could keep learning and teaching for thousands of years.
    Because our time is finite, we want to make the most of the time we have, we don't want to be burdened with unnessesarily time-consuming tasks we need to do to survive when we have other things we'd rather do for fun and pleasure.
    When you are immortal on the other hand, you have all the time in the world and once survival stops becoming a struggle and you arrive at a place where you are happy, there is not much of a motivation left for you to keep pushing.
    Look at it this way, the Amazons live forever unless slain, we don't hear about them getting sick, they live on an island where there is virtually nothing to threaten them, none of them appear to go ever go hungry and the Sisterhood is an model of an equal society where none are vastly better off than the average Amazon. There just isn't much in this society thats there to motivate the inhabitants to develop from the state they are currently on.

    As for our greatest minds... this is under the assumption they will continue to remain great and keep living on that forefront of development within the field they are known for. Like take Charles Darwin, much of what he did were basic scientific observations and descriptions of the world around him, despite the fact that he in school was considered a rather dim pupil.
    Plus you have to consider that many of our greatest minds also did very stupid things... like Marie Curie used to walk around with the lump of radioactive material in her pocket that won her two Nobel prizes and eventually killed her.


    Yes, they came from a brutal era - the whole point of the Amazons in WW was that they were NOT the same as their neighbors.
    And thats still true, they are still less brutal and barbaric than their neighbors... they are just more so than you'd like.

    Oh please. "If you don't like it, it's because it's too deep for you." If you can't debate the merits and criticisms, then this is a childish argument.
    Thats kinda the problem, the criticism just is also very childish because its 'I wasn't told this thing I wanted to know, so the story is bad!'

    "Plausible" based on what?
    Since 2012, I've been asking Azzarello fans to name a single female led society that had wide-spread male infantice. NO ONE has ever given me an answer.
    Your "plausible" is an assumption that goes counter to the entire human history as we know it.

    Moreover, with so much else in story that is far beyond reality - this is a superhero comic, after all - why is it that only the Amazons are restricted to "plausibility"? Super science gorillas = a-ok! High tech women = wth? No. That doesn't work.
    Human evolution.
    Perhaps because there's never been one? Perhaps because even a matriarchal society is hard to come by?
    Not really, there are plenty of examples of human societies discarding infants and others that were considered defective or unwanted. Like the Spartans got rid of infants that were considered sickly by throwing them off cliffs.
    Thats said, the plausible part of this was a reference to how advanced an isolated society would actually be. Like we have an isolated society of humans on an island in the Indian ocean that noone has managed to make contact with yet... because people who get too close get spears thrown after them and outsiders unlucky enough to land there tend to get eaten.

    A) Because you loose the uniqueness you inherently get by basing them in large parts on an existing myth thats existed for centuries. If you had made them green with tentacles for arms and called them Gob-Narks from the planet Zog, then no one would have given a hoot about the spaceguns. But no, you chose to base them on an existing myth with an already unique feel, aesthetic vision and culture to them... and your first thought is to wipe all of that away to make them like all the others?
    B) Because in the world of comics, you don't actually need a technological edge to be capable... like, take DKRIII, the Amazons beat off an invading force of Kryptonians using nothing but their ancient shields, swords and spears when the rest of world had virtually keeled over.

  3. #108
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    It`s an interesting narrative tool for a sect of Amazons or arcs about how not perfect they are.

    Not really for a status-quo
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  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    And you are a student of history to know this then?

    The Amazons, not their real-life Scythian counterparts, have always been depicted as Greek... and like everything Greek was later stolen and added to the Roman's systems of beliefs.
    While I am no expert, I know enough to know that the Greeks did NOT consider the Amazons to be Greek. More important, the whole point of Marston's Amazons was to subvert much of the sexism in Greek myth (and modern society) not reinforce that sexism.

    A) And if Wonder Woman had been an obscure character a recap might have been necessary... but she just happens to be the most well-known female superhero ever created.

    B)
    New generation: Been done since antiquity when plenty of Greek kings liked to draw their family trees back to Heracles.
    Reforming Hera: When was this done? It's not been in a WW book since Hera was practically invisible before the New 52.
    Kill Ares: yes that might seem dull if you've played God of War too many times... but Kratos isn't Diana.
    Prior to the movie, most people only knew the name "Wonder Woman," but didn't know that much about her. Hence, the point of the relaunch was to get new readers. And, given how many other elements Azzarello repeated from various sources, your "didn't want to repeat" excuse is flawed.

    Funny thing there... yes it is, all stuff thats in canon is actually there on equal footing and merit compared to everything else there. What isn't equal is what the audience like or dislike of it.
    The funny thing is that even DC (and Marvel) don't treat all of their own canon equally.

    Nice fantasy, not much to do with reality. Prayers and hashtags don't change anything on their own.
    I'm not talking bout hashtags and prayers, I'm talking about the foundation of law. Do police officers only arrest those that murder people the cops know?

    Amuse me then, what kind of flaws would you consider acceptable for the Amazons to have?
    I am neither the writer nor here for your amusement. I'll simply make by point by asking, are you "perfect?" No, right? Should I then assume you murder your own children?

    He used them as propaganda, nothing more... like a North Korean military parade is meant to display strength and unity, not just so the Kims could have a look at his own hardware.
    Nothing more? Have you even read any of the Marston stories?

    Ok, so whats the propaganda element of what Azzarello did?
    "Dirt." He wanted a more male-centric story as approved by the men signing his paycheck to sell to a very male-centric market.

    And why would you need to flesh out small parts of a story thats largely unconnected to the main story?
    If depth and complexity are so unnecessary, then why introduce it at all? After all, the Amazons mating habits have absolutely nothing to do with the main story anyway.

    High Father is not doing a very good job then considering New Genesis has long been the center of a vast interstellar protectorate that includes Earth, likewise Apokolips reaches out to other planets to make deals and conquests. So perhaps he was referring to the Bugs living on New Genesis' surface.

    As for Hepaehestus... he's the god of the forge, if anyone is going to be in a constant state of R&D it's going to be him...
    Both fictional men, and their predominantly male-centric societies, are said to not like visitors - same as the Amazons. The only real difference is that you and Azzarello readily accept excuses for why the men are highly advanced while making excuses for why the Amazons can't be.

    Athena - a once proud Amazon patron - is the goddess of wisdom. If anyone would be in a constant search of more knowledge, it's going to be her. Yet, she isn't allowed to do much of anything throughout the entire run?

    Because our time is finite, we want to make the most of the time we have, we don't want to be burdened with unnessesarily time-consuming tasks we need to do to survive when we have other things we'd rather do for fun and pleasure.
    We spend so much time doing things just to survive - yet, we still advance. The Amazons would have a lot more time to pursue knowledge, but don't?

    When you are immortal on the other hand, you have all the time in the world and once survival stops becoming a struggle and you arrive at a place where you are happy, there is not much of a motivation left for you to keep pushing.
    Look at it this way, the Amazons live forever unless slain, we don't hear about them getting sick, they live on an island where there is virtually nothing to threaten them, none of them appear to go ever go hungry and the Sisterhood is an model of an equal society where none are vastly better off than the average Amazon. There just isn't much in this society thats there to motivate the inhabitants to develop from the state they are currently on.
    That's your assumption. It's one I find quite dull. I don't picture immortals wanting to do nothing new.

    As for our greatest minds... this is under the assumption they will continue to remain great and keep living on that forefront of development within the field they are known for. Like take Charles Darwin, much of what he did were basic scientific observations and descriptions of the world around him, despite the fact that he in school was considered a rather dim pupil.
    Plus you have to consider that many of our greatest minds also did very stupid things... like Marie Curie used to walk around with the lump of radioactive material in her pocket that won her two Nobel prizes and eventually killed her.
    And had she been like the Amazons and not died, she could have learned and grown and expanded her knowledge via continued research.

    And thats still true, they are still less brutal and barbaric than their neighbors... they are just more so than you'd like.
    Does Heph kill kids? Are the Amazon men shown killing women? So, no, it's not really true. The societies Azzarello juxtaposes with the Amazons are all more advanced than they are.

    Thats kinda the problem, the criticism just is also very childish because its 'I wasn't told this thing I wanted to know, so the story is bad!'
    See your own criticisms about Rucka's Rebirth run. Maybe we aren't so different, after all? ;-)

    Perhaps because there's never been one?
    Exactly my point. There is no known evidence of a female led society that had male infanticide. In other words, it's a myth. It's made-up. It's "propaganda." For men.

    Not really, there are plenty of examples of human societies discarding infants and others that were considered defective or unwanted.
    Are not all of those examples from male-led societies?

    Thats said, the plausible part of this was a reference to how advanced an isolated society would actually be.
    Why are only the Amazons limited to assumptions of "plausibility" though? Why make excuses for the Atlanteans, Wakandans, New Genesis, Heph, Gorilla City? This isn't a world of real - it's fictional. But the Amazons can't have enough intelligent thought to advance? No, that doesn't work. Especially not when they are the only female led society of the bunch.

    A) Because you loose the uniqueness you inherently get by basing them in large parts on an existing myth thats existed for centuries. If you had made them green with tentacles for arms and called them Gob-Narks from the planet Zog, then no one would have given a hoot about the spaceguns. But no, you chose to base them on an existing myth with an already unique feel, aesthetic vision and culture to them... and your first thought is to wipe all of that away to make them like all the others?
    Making the Amazons more akin to the countless generic versions found in many other sources doesn't make them more unique. Nor does it help the themes of WW to make them into shallow sexist stereotypes.

    B) Because in the world of comics, you don't actually need a technological edge to be capable... like, take DKRIII, the Amazons beat off an invading force of Kryptonians using nothing but their ancient shields, swords and spears when the rest of world had virtually keeled over.
    So, suddenly it's ok when realism and plausibility doesn't need to apply? You can't have it both ways.

    Edit - we can keep going in circular rounds, probably getting nowhere, or would you be more interested in trying to find more common ground? Didn't you say awhile back that you were open to the idea of the "sex piracy" being a lie from Heph (or something like that)? I'd be interested in hearing more of how you would have done that.
    Last edited by Awonder; 09-12-2017 at 03:26 PM.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkseid Is View Post
    But I also like the idea of Wonder Woman existing in a classic mythology world and becoming better than them. It always felt to me like Wonder Woman was just another Amazon. Almost like any of them could fill her shoes.
    This is exactly the reason I liked it. That said, however, it didn't necessarily have to be this that would make her stand out for me. It could've been something else. But if nearly everyone on PI has almost the exact same moral compass and the only thing that separates her is her powers, it takes a bit of the shine off. A hero should be more than just their super powers, imho.
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  6. #111
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    There's a reason the idea of hyper sexist premidative murderesses didn't make it into the movie.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

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  7. #112
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    Hmmm if all the amazons are like their Greek myths counterpart than Diana should grow up the same way. The thing is why make them like their savage myths. The Greeks wrote them that way do to their society of equality. Now there is a way of making Diana stay out and not just a same amazons. Diana even in the beginning always was trying to go outside. However, you have to balance the whole at times I feel like an outsider and what makes her special. What makes Diana special ( not including her powers.) I mean Mala could have won.


    The amazons bullied Diana and killed their sons before trading them. So why would Diana grow up to love? They would have killed Steve without Diana. Why have a contest to see who goes outside.
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 09-12-2017 at 02:48 PM.
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  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    There's a reason the idea of hyper sexist premidative murderesses didn't make it into the movie.
    I love that the movie that everyone loved was co-written by Allan Heinberg, one of the least liked WW writers post-Crisis (whose run is one of my personal favorites, personally ).
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    This is exactly the reason I liked it. That said, however, it didn't necessarily have to be this that would make her stand out for me. It could've been something else. But if nearly everyone on PI has almost the exact same moral compass and the only thing that separates her is her powers, it takes a bit of the shine off. A hero should be more than just their super powers, imho.
    We celebrate athletes most when they beat other great athletes. That's when they "shine" brightest, not when you make the other runners, swimmers, etc slower. You don't have to make the Amazons look bad to make Diana look good. Movie Odin is celebrated as the strong, wise, and benevolent all-father. Similar male role models dominate our media. Why can't WW have the same for her mother and sisters?

    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    I love that the movie that everyone loved was co-written by Allan Heinberg, one of the least liked WW writers post-Crisis (whose run is one of my personal favorites, personally ).
    Well, for starters, the movie didn't disappear for months on end while we waited for the next 15 minutes of the story.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    While I am no expert, I know enough to know that the Greeks did NOT consider the Amazons to be Greek.

    More important, the whole point of Marston's Amazons was to subvert much of the sexism in Greek myth (and modern society) not reinforce that sexism.
    Maybe not, but everyone else consider them to be part of the picture because the Greeks are our only source on the Amazons.

    No, Marston was taking a subtle swipe at the sexism of his present day by subverting and old myth he didn't seem to understand.
    Because yes, the Amazons were stereotyped as scary to the greeks, and was meant to enforce that notion of not giving their women too much room to breathe.
    But, the Amazons themselves of the old myths were not sexist in of themselves, they were used as such, but you have to consider that in the myths the Amazons are described as fearsome warriors, owners of their own land and city, beholden to no one and so on... take away how the greeks used this myth, the old Amazons were actually a quite female-positive image (just not for greek men fearing rebellious wives at home).

    Prior to the movie, most people only knew the name "Wonder Woman," but didn't know that much about her. Hence, the point of the relaunch was to get new readers. And, given how many other elements Azzarello repeated from various sources, your "didn't want to repeat" excuse is flawed.
    And those he repeated were ones he had changed or were using in a new way, both of which were cases of things that had somekind of impact on the story he was telling. The origins of the Amazons simply was not needed... and as for new readers, allow me to postulate that Azzarello may have thought that if people came so far as to picking up his book, then it was Diana and his story that was going to keep them buying, not sporadic information. Like you can't launch a new run on Superman or Batman either under the assumption that most of the audience has no idea who they are so you have to retell their origins... unless it actually has something to do with the main story. Comics are strapped for page space as it is, you don't really have the means to just meander around as a writer.

    The funny thing is that even DC (and Marvel) don't treat all of their own canon equally.
    Which is irrelevant until they do something to either change or remove the offending item. And DC were firm in how Amazons Attack remained in canon and didn't involve stuff like mindcontrol or other softening factors that Simone had wanted to add. So Amazons Attack was canon as it was right up to Flashpoint, along with the killer bees.

    I'm not talking bout hashtags and prayers, I'm talking about the foundation of law. Do police officers only arrest those that murder people the cops know?
    Thats different since it's part of their job, but it still doesn't mean they care... like there was a video of a bunch of cops tasering and pepperspraying a black man who was having an epileptic fit or something. The cops clearly did not care about that guy, they cared about their own safety.

    I am neither the writer nor here for your amusement. I'll simply make by point by asking, are you "perfect?" No, right? Should I then assume you murder your own children?
    Actually you are because we are all here partly for the amusement of engaging in these little conversations

    Nothing more? Have you even read any of the Marston stories?
    I have actually, thats why I know what they are.

    "Dirt." He wanted a more male-centric story as approved by the men signing his paycheck to sell to a very male-centric market.
    Thats not propaganda, or even true, try again.

    If depth and complexity are so unnecessary, then why introduce it at all? After all, the Amazons mating habits have absolutely nothing to do with the main story anyway.
    Actually it sort of does because at some point you'd have to explain if Diana was the only child on the island, and if she wasn't then you'd have to explain where they came from. Azzarello hit us early with it even if we didn't notice it when Strife noted how spiteful children could be when remarked on her nickname, we just didn't know she meant it literally at the time.
    The Amazons own origins however is a thing we are never confronted with and we are never reminded of it.

    Both fictional men, and their predominantly male-centric societies, are said to not like visitors - same as the Amazons. The only real difference is that you and Azzarello readily accept excuses for why the men are highly advanced while making excuses for why the Amazons can't be.

    Athena - a once proud Amazon patron - is the goddess of wisdom. If anyone would be in a constant search of more knowledge, it's going to be her. Yet, she isn't allowed to do much of anything throughout the entire run?
    Hephaestus does not like visitors because he feels shunned due to how he looks. New Genesis however is not closed either, they keep above the ground because they realized the kind of damage they can do to the surface... but the only hostile's you'll find there is if you give Orion or Barda a reason, or it used to be that way. And again, New Genesis is technologically motivated by the war with Apokolips. The Amazons are not at war with anyone, and in the New 52 they didn't even have Dooms Door as a major threat.

    Uh, no, because wisdom and knowledge are not the same thing. Knowledge is just knowing things, wisdom is knowing what to do with the knowledge you have... Athena definitely knows what to do in Azzarello's run. Unlike Apollo who is the God of Knowledge in the old myths, if he had been wiser, maybe he wouldn't have taken the First Born to Olympus.

  11. #116
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    We spend so much time doing things just to survive - yet, we still advance. The Amazons would have a lot more time to pursue knowledge, but don't?
    We advanced because of the struggle. We continue to advance now because we have changed our priorities about what matters. Now it's not about the struggle to get food and stay warm, it's about getting better pictures and better information out of our telephones and using our resources better.

    The Amazons on the other hand have reached their level of contentment because, everyone has a home, everyone has food on their plate and they don't struggle to get either. Everything in their world appears to be working just fine, and considering they appear to very conservative on top of everything else, they dont appear to want change. It's not broke, so why fix it?

    That's your assumption. It's one I find quite dull. I don't picture immortals wanting to do nothing new.
    And what I imagine they'd do is simply change their profession. Someone who's gotten tired of weaving baskets or blankets decides to go fishing instead, perhaps join the army in hopes of attaining rank or perhaps venture into the smithy to finally make her own sword?

    And had she been like the Amazons and not died, she could have learned and grown and expanded her knowledge via continued research.
    Untill that day when her research reached a point where she just couldn't go on because she has gone so far into it she can't see the other options a new set of eyes could.
    You have to remember that there have been alot of systems thats only ever been changed because old generations let go and died out.

    Does Heph kill kids? Are the Amazon men shown killing women? So, no, it's not really true. The societies Azzarello juxtaposes with the Amazons are all more advanced than they are.
    Which societies? The ones the Amazons were usually created around have all died out by now. As for who is more civilized:
    The Amazons kill a dozen or so sailors every 33 years and live in a largely equal society.
    The Roman Empire were big on slave trading, stamping out 'barbarians' and persecuting Christians
    The Greek City states were often at war with one another and also heavily based on slave labour and the inequality between social classes.

    See your own criticisms about Rucka's Rebirth run. Maybe we aren't so different, after all? ;-)
    The difference is that I am complaining about major plotpoints I dont think Rucka answered fully while you are complaining about stuff that belongs in the appendix. :S

    Exactly my point. There is no known evidence of a female led society that had male infanticide. In other words, it's a myth. It's made-up. It's "propaganda." For men.
    Point is that I can't prove there existed a matriarchal society somewhere that practised infanticide, I certainly do not know of any. But on the other hand I don't know of many cultures actually based on a matriarchal system at all. But considering women are also human, and just as capable of rotten behaviour as men are, I wouldn't rule it out. Especially not if we venture back far enough where humans were largely based on tribes that couldn't afford members that couldn't carry their own weight.

    Are not all of those examples from male-led societies?
    Those are. But I could also pull out a Chinese Empress or consort that we have on record for being exceptionally cruel to their rivals.

    Why are only the Amazons limited to assumptions of "plausibility" though? Why make excuses for the Atlanteans, Wakandans, New Genesis, Heph, Gorilla City? This isn't a world of real - it's fictional. But the Amazons can't have enough intelligent thought to advance? No, that doesn't work.

    Especially not when they are the only female led society of the bunch.
    It's not excuses, its seeing that these places are not all in the same boat.
    The Amazons are the only ones on this list who live in near-total isolation and aside the New Gods, they are the only ones that live forever. And still New Genesis ventures out every time Darkseid pokes his head out because protecting everyone else from him is their duty and they live on different planets. Atlantis is a large empire covering 2/3's of the planets surface and includes 7 kingdoms. Hepahstus is a god of creation. Wakanda sits on top of a mountain of the most precious miracle metal in Marvel staving off anyone who'd want a piece. And Gorilla City I can't properly explain because I never read Flash books.
    Thing is that all of these places are regularly exposed to a larger world they venture out into and in many cases are often visited themselves by outsiders. Like Wakanda wasn't a secret place no one could find, it was just so well defended that no one could get into it or out again.

    And to me that's irrelevant. Just because they are women does not mean I will give them a free pass on something like this. And just to say it, I wouldn't do it either if it had been a male-only society of isolated immortals.

    Making the Amazons more akin to the countless generic versions found in many other sources doesn't make them more unique. Nor does it help the themes of WW to make them into shallow sexist stereotypes.
    I am curious where you have this notion from that there are 'countless generic versions' of the Amazons that appear like they did here? Or are you just aiming to lump them in with all the 'female babarians' you find in videogames?

    The theme of Wonder Woman has always been centred around female empowerment, that theme is still very much there because the Amazons in the New 52 were still as strong and capable as they always were.
    Try and think of it in a positive way instead. They were created to live in a very brutal time when swords often did the talking, and they prevailed and flourished during it despite being in the time when women were thought of as lesser beings. They managed in that world. And now they are here in the modern day still living by those old harsher means and ways as they always have when everyone else has been forced to change.
    I like to think of the Amazons, when written as living in a time bubble, as an example of how though they are. They just don't need the tech, unlike modern humans. And it's not like I think they are stupid, because often enough they are depicted as advanced for an ancient culture, much like the Romans and Atheneans, it's just that they are conservative (much like Japan).

    So, suddenly it's ok when realism and plausibility doesn't need to apply? You can't have it both ways.
    By this I assume you mean it's not plausible the Amazons being 'that' capable?
    Look, if the point of the Amazons is to make women feel empowered or inspired, the first thing you don't do is run the Amazons into the ground. Instead you make them look capable, you can ofc do this with tech, Azzarello and Miller did it with sword and shield... and I have no problems with that.
    Like it's all well and good they might have inspired young girls to become doctors and scientists back in Marstons days where they were very rare... but right now we have female hero characters that are doctors and scientists by the truckload. You can now use the Amazons to perhaps inspire women to take a bigger crack at that last bastion of male-professions: soldiers. Like wasn't it just in the news the first women ever has signed up for SEAL training? What kind of signal is it that it's taken this long? Is that not something thats worth changing as well?

    Edit - we can keep going in circular rounds, probably getting nowhere, or would you be more interested in trying to find more common ground? Didn't you say awhile back that you were open to the idea of the "sex piracy" being a lie from Heph (or something like that)? I'd be interested in hearing more of how you would have done that.
    I originally floated the idea that Hephaestus could be lying about the raids for other reasons. Like he is an Olympian god, and he could have been wearing the benevolent and victimized facade while he told his story because he perhaps wanted something.
    Like, if he was like Finch wrote him, more cruel than Azzarello did, maybe he told that story and made it convincing enough Diana believed it. Then when the time came and Diana thought to unite mothers sisters and sons, she'd bring Hephaestus' boys to Themyscira only to find out the boys are not the sons of the Amazons (they could be androids) and it was all a ruse so Hephaestus could get his hands on some of the Amazons.

    Alternatively I thought it could all just be the version Hephaestus knew of, but since he was not there, he would never know for certain. And when Diana eventually would confront Hippolyta about it, she would say that: yes, the raids happened, but no the sailors were not slain they just had their minds wiped at the end of the night. Or that the raids were entirely made up and the Amazon children were all sculpted from clay in a highly secret and sacred location no one spoke of before they had to go there themselves for a kind of symbolic pregnancy. The boy children would be explained as part of the ritual not being fully under the Amazons control. Hephaestus' version would simply be the one he concocted on his own as the most likely explanation.

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    The argument that humans only advance because of a need to survive is somewhat flawed based on the last 100 years of human history. The most technologically advanced nations tend to be the ones with the longest lifespans and highest quality of life.

    Of course, many technological advances happen in wartime, but that is not the ONLY time they advance.

    It should be remembered that the Marston Amazons are not simply cultural clones of modern western people with the additional benefit of mortality. They have an outlook completely different from the modern western capitalist driven mindset. Imagine what a researcher like Isaac Newton, Marie Curie, or Leanardo DaVinci could have achieved with 3000 years to work on their ideas.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    The argument that humans only advance because of a need to survive is somewhat flawed based on the last 100 years of human history.
    The most technologically advanced nations tend to be the ones with the longest lifespans and highest quality of life.

    Of course, many technological advances happen in wartime, but that is not the ONLY time they advance.

    It should be remembered that the Marston Amazons are not simply cultural clones of modern western people with the additional benefit of mortality. They have an outlook completely different from the modern western capitalist driven mindset. Imagine what a researcher like Isaac Newton, Marie Curie, or Leanardo DaVinci could have achieved with 3000 years to work on their ideas.
    I would argue that the last time the human race made significant a leap forwards in terms of technology was when we put a man on the Moon.
    They also tend to be the richest. But I am not sure you can use that argument here, the Amazons are naturally immortal and seem to enjoy a high quality of life as they are. (Low to no crime, no struggle for equality, food's aplenty and housing for all... what more would they want?)

    True, but it's during times like wars where advancements are really spurred on, because you need it to have that edge over the others. Like the Space Race was only managed as it was because the USSR and the US were competing against each other.

    They have an outlook completely different from the modern western capitalist driven mindset. This is part of what I have been getting at, the Amazons are not us modern people, they dont have our needs and perspectives. They are immortal after all so they dont have to rush to get anywhere or rush to get anything done if they just plan accordingly.
    Immortal researchers, I imagine that the Amazons have already documented all there is to see and know about the plants and wildlife of their home and stuff like this is already gathering dust in a book or scroll somewhere. Somethings however I imagine would be described through the lenses of their faith in the Olympians... so I am not sure we would see an Amazon tempting Zeus to hit her kite with a bolt of lightning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    We celebrate athletes most when they beat other great athletes. That's when they "shine" brightest, not when you make the other runners, swimmers, etc slower. You don't have to make the Amazons look bad to make Diana look good. Movie Odin is celebrated as the strong, wise, and benevolent all-father. Similar male role models dominate our media. Why can't WW have the same for her mother and sisters?
    I think a dichotomy can be a helpful storytelling tool, personally. Odin worked in the first Thor for me because he was the one who had to set the arrogant, selfish, and just plain bratty Thor straight (which is a depiction I'm sure wouldn't go over well if applied to WW). In the sequel, it was flipped (at least for me), since I thought Odin in that one came off significantly less admirable while Thor was the one willing to break the rules in order to do the right thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    Well, for starters, the movie didn't disappear for months on end while we waited for the next 15 minutes of the story.
    I'm okay with long wait between issues just so long as the story's good (and I loved Heinberg's story!).
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    The argument that humans only advance because of a need to survive is somewhat flawed based on the last 100 years of human history. The most technologically advanced nations tend to be the ones with the longest lifespans and highest quality of life.

    Of course, many technological advances happen in wartime, but that is not the ONLY time they advance.

    It should be remembered that the Marston Amazons are not simply cultural clones of modern western people with the additional benefit of mortality. They have an outlook completely different from the modern western capitalist driven mindset. Imagine what a researcher like Isaac Newton, Marie Curie, or Leanardo DaVinci could have achieved with 3000 years to work on their ideas.
    Time isn't the issue. Drive is.The Amazon have their needs more or less caters for on the island.So they are less motivated to make their live better.

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