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  1. #61
    Mighty Member MRP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JFP View Post


    The thing that makes the Euro market so poor is that the books that actually make it to the millions are titles that have been around since our grandparents were kids. Books like Tintin and Asterix (comics that have been around since our grandparents were young) are the only Euro comics that sell. If a Euro artist wants to put out something new, he's worse off than his American or Japanese counterpart. The European comic book market isn't impressive when you consider the only comics that have impact are kids comics for when our granddads were young. At least that 50k the American artist can expect to see is attainable where the new Euro artist can't even expect 5k.

    What does IP stand for?
    The same can be said for the American market embodied by the big 2. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman are all 75 + years old. Tintin debuted in 1929, only 9 years before Superman. Asterix didn't premiere until 1959.

    So what comics from the big 2 are doing well that haven't been around since our grandparents were young?

    If you are going to use 75+ year old characters, which market is healthier, one where they sell 50-100K units or one where they sell 5-8 million units?

    and IP is intellectual property, something anyone who wants to discuss entertainment media in the 21st century should understand because that's what it is all about. Characters value as IP is far more extensive than the sales of the publications they themselves appear in and decisions are made based on that value, not on how many copies they can sell in one iteration.

    -M
    Comic fans get the comics their buying habits deserve.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRP View Post
    The same can be said for the American market embodied by the big 2. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman are all 75 + years old. Tintin debuted in 1929, only 9 years before Superman. Asterix didn't premiere until 1959.

    So what comics from the big 2 are doing well that haven't been around since our grandparents were young?

    If you are going to use 75+ year old characters, which market is healthier, one where they sell 50-100K units or one where they sell 5-8 million units?

    and IP is intellectual property, something anyone who wants to discuss entertainment media in the 21st century should understand because that's what it is all about. Characters value as IP is far more extensive than the sales of the publications they themselves appear in and decisions are made based on that value, not on how many copies they can sell in one iteration.

    -M
    Deadpool, Wolverine, and Suicide Squad are comics doing well that haven't been around since our grandparents were young.

    The American market is healthier: greater quantity of titles; can branch out better into different storytelling mediums like live actions movies/shows, animated movies/shows, and even illustrated fiction; gives a greater number of people work: how many comic creators have been able to make a living working at the Big 2 vs the number of comic creators have made a living working on Asterix, Tintin, and the like; can sustain whole stores: you can make a profitable comic store selling only Big 2 merchandise--how much could you make in Europe with a comic store that only sells Asterix, Tintin, and the like; etc.

    The films and shows made from the Marvel and DC characters have sustained media empires. How well has Asterix and Tintin done to sustain publishing/production companies?

    I would rather own the rights to the characters from the Big 2 than from Euro comics. You could make far more money off them.

    Unfortunately, we have gone off topic. Sorry, OP.

  3. #63
    Concerned Citizen Citizen Kane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JFP View Post
    I have around 10 comic book stores within a 30 minute drive of my home. Over the years, they've been increasing their Big 2 products and significantly decreasing their Image and other indies. Their profits have increased and they are much more full.
    I don't know where you live, but it seems preposterous that any comic book stores would experience significant gains by decreasing their Image stock.

    Honestly, if comic book stores stocked little or no Image titles, would they lose significant profit?
    Yes, they most likely would. Image is a lot more popular than you seem to be giving them credit for.

  4. #64
    BANNED GrifterWC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JFP View Post
    Honestly, if comic book stores stocked little or no Image titles, would they lose significant profit?
    I know the store I go to would. Image and the Indie books are about half his profits. A lot of his customers are sick of the big two so he needs those books and customers.
    Hell, I wouldn't need to go to to his shop if he stopped ordering Image books.

    For me the delays aren't a big deal. I usually don't read them right away anyway, so by the time I get to it I read the full story line in a sitting.

  5. #65
    Mighty Member MRP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JFP View Post
    Deadpool, Wolverine, and Suicide Squad are comics doing well that haven't been around since our grandparents were young.

    The American market is healthier: greater quantity of titles; can branch out better into different storytelling mediums like live actions movies/shows, animated movies/shows, and even illustrated fiction; gives a greater number of people work: how many comic creators have been able to make a living working at the Big 2 vs the number of comic creators have made a living working on Asterix, Tintin, and the like; can sustain whole stores: you can make a profitable comic store selling only Big 2 merchandise--how much could you make in Europe with a comic store that only sells Asterix, Tintin, and the like; etc.

    The films and shows made from the Marvel and DC characters have sustained media empires. How well has Asterix and Tintin done to sustain publishing/production companies?

    I would rather own the rights to the characters from the Big 2 than from Euro comics. You could make far more money off them.

    Unfortunately, we have gone off topic. Sorry, OP.
    And of Deadpool, Wolverine and Suicide Squad, how many are selling more than 50K copies a month regularly without a boost from variant covers? How many have had any of their books continually in print since their inception? How many of them have ever sold multiple volumes in the millions of copies? How many of them have earned their creators a decent living and perpetual income and retirement? Oh and Suicide Squad is as old as Asterix, it premiered in Brave & the Bold in 1959, so not really a new concept.

    Asterix animated movies were making money long before Marvel had a successful movie in theaters and continue to sell well in the home video market, as do the Tintin animated features. How many big 2 books have been evergreen sellers and stayed in print for the last 50 + years and continue to sell the back catalog consistently generating revenue in significant amounts long after the initial publication and release without ever having gone out of print or been unavailable? Evergreen sellers sustain publishers far more than a comic that has a sale window of a month before it is replaced. It provided consistent revenue over the long term rather than a small influx of cash upon release and then nothing until you shell out the costs to produce another issue. The return on investment for an evergreen seller is much higher than a monthly comic with a limited shelf life. If all the revenue you generate is tied up in paying costs of production, it doesn't make you a lot of money in the short or long term. Since the $3.99 books only generate $1 of revenue for the publisher because of the Diamond middle man mark ups, a book that sells 50K copies only generates $50K in revenue for the company. Once creator costs, editorial costs, printing costs, transport costs, marketing costs, company infrastructure costs, etc. are subtracted from each issue's take, there's not much revenue left to go into the profit column, and all those costs have to be paid for each issue produced, while an evergreen seller only pays those costs once plus royalties as it continue to sell so there is a much larger profit margin in an evergreen seller than a monthly book that has to be continuously produced to sell.

    As for the movies, well Marvel and DC see none of that money, Disney and Warner Brothers do. The revenue generated by the movies is not credited to the publishing division and is not used to figure how profitable they are. Publishing has to pay for itself, as $50k a month for 50K sales doesn't go very far along those lines.

    And the success of Asterix and Tintin sustained the creators and their families for a lifetime. I don't think Len Wein saw much money from creating Wolverine beyond the page rates he got for scripting the issue.

    So there are a lot of factors why the European model is a better business model, more profitable and better in the long run for the creative talent than the American model.

    -M
    Comic fans get the comics their buying habits deserve.

  6. #66
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JFP View Post
    Have you talked to your local comic book retailer lately? Is there a comic book store owner on the planet who would say comic creators letting profit take a back seat is a plus or a minus?

    It's not only the fans who are losing enthusiasm; it's also comic store owners. I have around 10 comic book stores within a 30 minute drive of my home. Over the years, they've been increasing their Big 2 products and significantly decreasing their Image and other indies. Their profits have increased and they are much more full. So I don't see them returning to the time when they were stocked full of comics from creators who let profits take a back seat for other concerns.

    Honestly, if comic book stores stocked little or no Image titles, would they lose significant profit?

    Image is a business. We can only look at things that happen with them from a business viewpoint because none of the creators would put out a comic book for free.
    Since I live in Illinois, I can say with a fair degree of certainty that there is quite a bit of nonsense in this post.

    As for the final line, it pretty well sums up what you do not understand about the bigger picture. If you honestly think that what you believe to be a "Business Viewpoint" is how we should be looking at this, it just goes to show that you cannot grasp that "Business" is(and has been) changing for quite a while now.

  7. #67
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrifterWC View Post
    I know the store I go to would. Image and the Indie books are about half his profits. A lot of his customers are sick of the big two so he needs those books and customers.
    Hell, I wouldn't need to go to to his shop if he stopped ordering Image books.

    For me the delays aren't a big deal. I usually don't read them right away anyway, so by the time I get to it I read the full story line in a sitting.
    The only reason I am reading any DC titles is that they brought the "Wildstorm" characters back.

  8. #68
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JFP View Post
    how many comic creators have been able to make a living working at the Big 2 vs the number of comic creators have made a living working on Asterix, Tintin, and the like
    You ever hear of The Walking Dead?

  9. #69
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Let alone the money the guy makes off of Outcast...

  10. #70
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    MRP: you make a lot of good points and I do not wish to dispute them. I do not wish to derail the original poster's topic and get off topic. Let's just agree to disagree on the subject of American comics vs Euro comics.

    numberthirty: why do you copy and paste my posts into separate posts? It's weird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen Kane View Post
    I don't know where you live, but it seems preposterous that any comic book stores would experience significant gains by decreasing their Image stock.

    Yes, they most likely would. Image is a lot more popular than you seem to be giving them credit for.
    I didn't say significant gains. I said they're increasing their profits and more full. They see more customers on a Tuesday afternoon after the change than they did on a Friday night. The term is profit, not popularity. Is Image more profitable now than they were years ago? No.

  11. #71
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deniz Camp View Post
    *fades in from the shadows*

    Get invested in Maxwell's Demons, from Vault Comics! OUt soon!

    Preview here: http://io9.gizmodo.com/in-maxwells-d...dar-1809618253

    *fades into shadows*
    I'm already hype as all hell for this book, brother!
    Follow your inner moonlight, do not hide the madness. -Ginsberg

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    I'm already hype as all hell for this book, brother!
    Thanks man!
    Deniz Camp
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    Order my new comic, MAXWELL'S DEMONS, from Vault Comics! Out Oct. 11!

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