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  1. #16
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    I do not think that Gordon actually has the means of making Batman's life difficult. Even if he does severely suspect that he is Bruce Wayne.
    "Over the Edge" implies otherwise.

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member Bogotazo's Avatar
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    It depends under what circumstances. Murdering a villain in cold blood for "the greater good" vs. to save a life in immediate peril or in the heat of battle is very different.

  3. #18

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    I just see Batman yelling "NO ONE DIES TONIGHT". And then he'd get **** done.
    Back from the Phantom Zone... but for how long?

    Clearly, Carol Danvers has taken the expression "man up" a little too seriously.


    FAVES: A-ko (Project A-ko), Rogue, Cassandra Cain, Supergirl (New 52), Power Girl (Kara Zor-El), She-Hulk, Spider-Gwen, Squirrel Girl, Jessica Cruz, Silk, Cassandra Lang

  4. #19
    Mad scientist Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    "Over the Edge" implies otherwise.
    I have no idea what that is.

    But I am guessing it is a story written specifically to support Batman not killing. The source is suspect in that case.

    If Batman really would pick up killing the occasional villain, it would not be an impulsive thing, he would have planned it out, made sure that he was ready for any police blowback.
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    "Over the Edge" implies otherwise.
    My thoughts exactly!


    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    I have no idea what that is.

    But I am guessing it is a story written specifically to support Batman not killing. The source is suspect in that case.

    If Batman really would pick up killing the occasional villain, it would not be an impulsive thing, he would have planned it out, made sure that he was ready for any police blowback.
    Its an episode of The New Batman Adventures animated series were Batgirl is killed in a battle between Batman & Scarecrow, she dies in Gordon's arms and he finds to his horror that his daughter was Batgirl, from that he quickly discovers Batman is Bruce Wayne and launches an all out attack on Wayne Manor quickly arresting Nightwing & Alfred (Robin barely escapes) before going to a final showdown with Batman. Its a good episode that shows just how effective Gordon & the GCPD could be in capturing Batman if Gordon didn't have a "look the other way" policy towards him

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogotazo View Post
    It depends under what circumstances. Murdering a villain in cold blood for "the greater good" vs. to save a life in immediate peril or in the heat of battle is very different.
    Exactly.

    I don't think Gordon would take a huge issue with the latter, but the former is going all out Punisher and would completely make Batman a villain.

  7. #22
    Mad scientist Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAG2045 View Post
    Its an episode of The New Batman Adventures animated series were Batgirl is killed in a battle between Batman & Scarecrow, she dies in Gordon's arms and he finds to his horror that his daughter was Batgirl, from that he quickly discovers Batman is Bruce Wayne and launches an all out attack on Wayne Manor quickly arresting Nightwing & Alfred (Robin barely escapes) before going to a final showdown with Batman. Its a good episode that shows just how effective Gordon & the GCPD could be in capturing Batman if Gordon didn't have a "look the other way" policy towards him
    I remember that one.

    Except all of it was just a Scarecrow-induced hallucination and not something that actually happened. So I do not see how it makes any points for Gordon being effective in stopping Batman.
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
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  8. #23
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    I remember that one.

    Except all of it was just a Scarecrow-induced hallucination and not something that actually happened. So I do not see how it makes any points for Gordon being effective in stopping Batman.
    But the fact is that it was real enough to possibly happen is what made it compelling, because it could happen.

    We've also seen in comics and other media how hard Batman's life can be when he has to juggle doing his job with trying to avoid or fight off the GCPD when they're actively coming after him.

  9. #24
    Spectacular Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    If he goes in a Punisher type of justice, he would've to go against the Justice League probably, specially considering Batman way of controlling his city. In Kindom Come, a dystopian future, we see a Bruce that has come in control of crime thanks to robots who patrol the city and high vigilance across the city (the security vs privacy debate I guess), now picture this scenario, but with the robots killing certain criminals (Punisher doesn't kill every single criminal either, it depends on the crime). I don't think it's something the JL would permit gladly.
    To kill in self defense or to protect a life is different and I think it's something the character has done in comics like DKR, so no big deal there. He avoids it when possible, and since he has such control of his body and mind he almost always manages to do so.


    Another case would be if, counting his no killing rule as it exist now, he decided to kill Joker. Not a planned kill, but a decission born in the moment. They're fighting, Batman wins and, while seeing the Joker defeated and all the people he killed in his last endeavour, he decides to cut the Joker's throat. I think the JL would criticize him, alongside the Bat family. Gordon would make the Bat illegal in Gotham, but with time Batman would regain his friends trust, even Gordon would be willing to forgive him, if he doesn't kill again. There're lot of characters that have decided to take a life despite a no killing rule, such as Green Arrow, Wonder Woman or Superman. Green Arrow decided to kill a bad guy who had being torturing Black Canary. Superman acted as judge, jury and executioner at the end of Byrne's run, when he decided to kill three Kryptonians, where among the group was General Zod. I haven't read the comic, but as far as I know, WW could have avoided killing Maxwell Lord
    Last edited by Chubistian; 09-07-2017 at 09:52 AM.

  10. #25
    Ultimate Member Assam's Avatar
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    I think it really depends on the circumstances.

    For instance, if right from the start, Batman was killing thugs left and right? Yeah, Gordon would take down the rookie Batman. If he only killed people like the Joker though, I don't think the GCPD would come after him.

    Alternatively, say, he started killing criminals in the present. The GCPD wouldn't even have the means to take him down, and the Justice League sure as Hell wouldn't even bother. After all, several of their members have killed, and they were happy to keep Batman around even after he, you know, caused the deaths of millions of people. No, in this scenario, Batman's biggest obstacle would be his own family. Jason, Kate, probably Damian, and possibly Tim and Steph depending on how far Bruce was taking things would have his back, but Cass, Dick, Babs and most other members definitely wouldn't.

    There are plenty of other ways to go about answering this question, but I'll just leave what I've got.
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  11. #26
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    It wouldn't matter if he started kiling.

    DC would still keep the Joker alive, because killing that cash cow would be a dumbass move.

  12. #27
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    I think it really depends on the circumstances.

    For instance, if right from the start, Batman was killing thugs left and right? Yeah, Gordon would take down the rookie Batman. If he only killed people like the Joker though, I don't think the GCPD would come after him.

    Alternatively, say, he started killing criminals in the present. The GCPD wouldn't even have the means to take him down, and the Justice League sure as Hell wouldn't even bother. After all, several of their members have killed, and they were happy to keep Batman around even after he, you know, caused the deaths of millions of people. No, in this scenario, Batman's biggest obstacle would be his own family. Jason, Kate, probably Damian, and possibly Tim and Steph depending on how far Bruce was taking things would have his back, but Cass, Dick, Babs and most other members definitely wouldn't.

    There are plenty of other ways to go about answering this question, but I'll just leave what I've got.
    I don't think Superman, Flash, or even the main GL's would be comfortable accepting Batman if he was killing criminals. I mean, they'd probably take his reasoning into account, but I think it would still be a major sticking point.

    Wonder Woman and Aquaman too, though I think they would be more mindful of his mental state and why exactly he's doing it more then anything else.

  13. #28
    Mighty Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think this is kind of ignoring the fact that he stops them either way and that I doubt they would be anymore concerned about trying to kill him then they already are.

    Just look at how many times Joker's "died" or Ra's has needed the Pit, with dubious involvement from Batman. Then things go back to how they usually are.

    So...really not much of a difference.
    100 times this. Batman not killing is completely irrelevant. Ra's is constantly 'dying'. Batman stabbed him critically in Hush, but he of course gets better. Joker's even worse. They talk about how DC would never kill Joker... but they kill him ALL THE TIME. Boats explode, Helicopters explode, buidings explode. Sometimes they even find a body and Batman is almost always there with some kind of weird 'I won't kill you, but I won't save you' mentality... Except the end of Death in the Family... He was totally going to straight up murder Joker that day to the point they brought superman in to stop him... and he still went down with the copter which 'nobody could possibly survive'...

    Happens all the time, and has been happening since he appeared in the 30's. The fact that as soon as they want to they find out 'GASP!!! He really wasn't dead after all!!!' Doesn't change the fact of him blowing up on panel.

    So if Batman walked up to him, put a gun in grinning mouth and pulled the trigger... a year later we'd find out that it was really just a clone or victim of smilex, or he had taken an experimental healing factor treatment.... of SOMETHING...



    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    I do not think that Gordon actually has the means of making Batman's life difficult. Even if he does severely suspect that he is Bruce Wayne.
    I always say check out year one or DKR. The cops don't STOP him... but they sure as heck make his life difficult. If they knew he was Wayne Batman may STILL be able to operate, but it would be a whole lot harder and much different war than one he's fighting now.

  14. #29
    All-New Member HappyWheel's Avatar
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    It seems to be very easy for him, killing bad guys means lead story to the end, good in real life but awful for comics storyline.

  15. #30
    Fantastic Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    It depends on how he kills. The following are the five ways he can kill.

    1)Accidental deaths. This won't affect him. He will have remorse and will be determined to be more careful.

    2)Accidental deaths which was because he tried to save someone. Remember in Dark Knight he accidentally kills Harvey Dent to save Gordon's son. That kind of killing will rattle him. But he will understand that there was absolutely no way it could be avoided. So he becomes more determined and resolves to be better prepared. And he will continue.

    3)Killing by not saving someone. Like in Batman Begins. He can continue as Batman. But if he does this a lot of times he will start going down a darker path. He will detect he is not doing it in the best way. He will know that i am doing it wrong and i will become same as the bad guys. If he chooses to continue like this anyway, he will surely begone. But Batman has so many things to consider. His parents legacy and mission, his family like Dick,Damian and Alfred, his friends of Justice League. So he will not choose this. He will start saving those whom he could save even at the risk of his life.

    4)Killing in action. To save someone he maybe forced to kill. It is OK for very few times. You save people. Sometimes there is absolutely no way to save lives without killing someone. But this would not be many times because he is prepared for everything. There would be more push in his mind to to kill after this. But he has the above reasons family/league/mission to keep him in line.

    5)Premeditated murder.
    If he plans to kill beforehand he may stage an accident or really murders/assassinates. This is someone Elseworld kind who has chosen the wrong thing as mentioned earlier in points (3) and (4). Batman never tries to kill anyone. This is a Batman whose darkness has come over him from the previous cases. He can't continue as Batman because he is no Batman. Batman is never a single act. He is always surrounded by friends and family. They keep him in line.


    Conclusion:

    In short he can continue as Batman even after killing. In real life soldiers kill but they kill for a good cause. They rarely become psychopaths. Love and support can heal mental scars even in those who have the potential to be psychopaths in future. Sometimes police officers kill. But it depends on the intent. Is killing an easy way or done carelessly without careful deliberation. If either of these they become psychos after sometime as they continue in this unethical manner. But if they kill and there was absolutely no alternative they can continue as police officers.

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