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  1. #901
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    Quote Originally Posted by penthotal View Post
    More often than not, when it's the case, they are replying to someone that has racist views, as this thread has shown. The non-racists that just want the classics back, have nothing against the new characters per se, don't spew hate and insult diverse creators, characters and fans should not feel the accusation is directed to them.
    I'm not saying this is any specific person in this specific thread but it's not uncommon to see someone talk about the subject and say some words to the effect of, "Look what they're doing at Marvel, they're obviously anti straight white men" or claim that "SJWs" hate straight white men.

  2. #902
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    I'm not saying this is any specific person in this specific thread but it's not uncommon to see someone talk about the subject and say some words to the effect of, "Look what they're doing at Marvel, they're obviously anti straight white men" or claim that "SJWs" hate straight white men.
    There are also some folks who take that what we've classically seen in books is the natural way things are, and the way they should be in the future (which ignores a) the demographic changes that the country is undergoing, despite the efforts of Bannon and their ilk, and b) past stories and characters really do come from a somewhat racist foundation---when you're worried about your books not being carried by distributors in the South because a black person is on the cover, that's going to affect who your characters ae)

  3. #903
    Spam Hunter Conn Seanery's Avatar
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    As some people have noticed and mentioned, this thread in particular has resulted in a lot of deletions and a few bans. I realize it's impossible to discuss tension in the readership without talking about the readers, but you need to find a way to do it without being rude, insulting, condescending, or disrespectful toward each other. If you want to avoid deletions and bans, that is. Keep it civil, folks.
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  4. #904
    Incredible Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    OK, really, let's be real here: has Marvel created this enviornment, or have we created this environment and it's just easier to blame it on Marvel?

    Marvel is just putting out stories that are a tad-sometimes VERY- polarizing, but we're the ones freaking out about them. Doesn't help that there are real people on this board and others complaining about Marvel "villainizing" Nails and acting like old school Marvel creators didn't also create very political material.
    THANK YOU FOR THIS POST. Fans are indeed VERY guilty of creating a toxic fandom environment. Even when people point out instances of creators ''picking fights'' with fans, a lot of that stems from those creators getting harassed by fans in the first place. Jason Aaron mocking the anti-feminists on his Thor book was a direct response to the kind of online hate he was being exposed to during the time. Every action has a reaction, and some fans actively seek those kind of discussions, and then act all surprised when it blows up on their faces. Again, I'm gonna bring up the infamous milkshake situation: a Marvel employee doing something completely harmless on her free time was enough to trigger that entire situation. And, yes, people from the comic book industry made a big deal out of that, but would have they felt the need to turn it into a whole campaign if people were respectful in the first place and didn't harass a woman FOR POSTING A FUCKING SELFIE? And no, it wasn't an ''isolated case'' because I am a part of this fandom AND I SEE THIS HAPPENING ALL THE TIME! I follow Marvel on social media and A LOT of people act like that on a daily basis. When Marvel posted a video of Erica Henderson drawing Squirrel Girl on Facebook, one of the top comments was someone saying she looked like a dyke and that's why the book sucked. I'm not kidding. A vast part of the remaining comments were, shockingly, accusations of ''SJW'' and ''PC'' and people offending her work. Did Marvel ever force anyone to act like that? Absolutely not. People use their freedom of speech right to behave in the most entitled, disrespectful and obnoxious ways, and then they hide behind accusations of ''Marvel is alienating its readers!!'' like the company is somehow to blame for their despicable behavior. I'm really tired of this. It's time for some fans to act like grown ups and own their responsibilities.
    Last edited by Drops Of Venus; 09-09-2017 at 11:17 PM.

  5. #905
    Incredible Member Jaddor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bor View Post
    Yet despite this Marvel beats DC in comics sales and by far in box offices for years. DC might have more succesful tv shows, but Marvel has most of the other things.
    box office? team up cross over movies is nothing to brag about.

    DC is already outgrossing marvel when marvel was at dc stage of cinematic universes.

    DC, also add their games and animations that beats the crap out of marvel.

    DC is better than modern marvel. there is no place of dc that is weak. marvel sucks at mostly everything.

  6. #906
    Mighty Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaddor View Post
    box office? team up cross over movies is nothing to brag about.

    DC is already outgrossing marvel when marvel was at dc stage of cinematic universes.

    DC, also add their games and animations that beats the crap out of marvel.

    DC is better than modern marvel. there is no place of dc that is weak. marvel sucks at mostly everything.
    Yeah. No.

    In theory we should be discussing things which are real and take place in reality. If not, someone let me know so I can bail out.
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  7. #907
    THE RED HOOD JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    I'm not saying this is any specific person in this specific thread but it's not uncommon to see someone talk about the subject and say some words to the effect of, "Look what they're doing at Marvel, they're obviously anti straight white men" or claim that "SJWs" hate straight white men.
    I don't believe that Marvel is anti straight white male at all. They are merely following the changing demographically climate in order to sell more books and they in all honesty should. I do however believe that there are some people (and yes even comic fans) out there who actually do hate straight, white men or woman even and would love to see them gone. Heck, I have an ex-friend IRL who is a lesbian and extremely anti-straight anyone at all to the point of actually hating and demonizing ALL straight people because of what a few have said or done. (The hate filled rhetoric she spouts is why we are no longer friends although to be honest she wasn't always like that and I am very worried about her.) The problem is that people on both sides all to often are assuming anyone not with them is against them without paying any sort of attention to what the person is actually saying at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    THANK YOU FOR THIS POST. Fans are indeed VERY guilty of creating a toxic fandom environment. Even when people point out instances of creators ''picking fights'' with fans, a lot of that stems from those creators getting harassed by fans in the first place. Jason Aaron mocking the anti-feminists on his Thor book was a direct response to the kind of online hate he was being exposed to during the time. Every action has a reaction, and some fans actively seek those kind of discussions, and then act all surprised when it blows up on their faces. Again, I'm gonna bring up the infamous milkshake situation: a Marvel employee doing something completely harmless on her free time was enough to trigger that entire situation. And, yes, people from the comic book industry made a big deal out of that, but would have they felt the need to turn it into a whole campaign if people were respectful in the first place and didn't harass a woman FOR POSTING A FUCKING SELFIE? And no, it wasn't an ''isolated case'' because I am a part of this fandom AND I SEE THIS HAPPENING ALL THE TIME! I follow Marvel on social media and A LOT of people act like that on a daily basis. When Marvel posted a video of Erica Henderson drawing Squirrel Girl on Facebook, one of the top comments was someone saying she looked like a dyke and that's why the book sucked. I'm not kidding. A vast part of the remaining comments were, shockingly, accusations of ''SJW'' and ''PC'' and people offending her work. Did Marvel ever force anyone to act like that? Absolutely not. People use their freedom of speech right to behave in the most entitled, disrespectful and obnoxious ways, and then they hide behind accusations of ''Marvel is alienating its readers!!'' like the company is somehow to blame for their despicable behavior. I'm really tired of this. It's time for some fans to act like grown ups and own their responsabilities.
    I agree. I've actually had to stop posting in a lot of topics here because the fans (and its nearly always the fans and not creatives that do it) have made things so toxic in them that it has a negative effect on the fun and enjoyment I get out of reading comics. Once I stopped even looking at those threads my enjoyment level went right back up and I was able to have fun reading the books I liked again. I posted something to that effect a while back and people actually told me if I let a little negativity effect my enjoyment maybe I really didn't enjoy the book at all anyway. Seriously WTH.
    Last edited by JasonTodd428; 09-09-2017 at 02:37 PM.

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  8. #908
    Mad scientist Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFerg714 View Post
    Fair enough. Personally, I like events when they're done right.
    That has happened like two or three in the entire history of the comic book medium. And one of them was in Dark Horse Star Wars comics.
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
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  9. #909
    Mighty Member TheFerg714's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazpocalapse View Post
    You will be accused of being a SJW that wants to kill off all the white males in comics that we have had no problem reading about for decades,go figure.
    I don't speak for everyone obviously, but I have never once insisted that, unless the specific person I'm talking to/about explicitly states that they think Marvel naysayers dislike characters who aren't straight, white males. It's often the left that jumps to identity politics first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    That has happened like two or three in the entire history of the comic book medium. And one of them was in Dark Horse Star Wars comics.
    Well I guess we'll just disagree on that then. I think plenty of DC and Valiant events have been great, to each his/her own.

    So do you have a problem with Marvel's event strategy?
    Last edited by TheFerg714; 09-09-2017 at 02:56 PM.
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    Other- Gwenpool / Kill or Be Killed / The Walking Dead

  10. #910
    Incredible Member Jaddor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    Yeah. No.

    In theory we should be discussing things which are real and take place in reality. If not, someone let me know so I can bail out.
    DC have better movies.

    Dc has better video games

    DC has better comics

    DC has better animations

    DC and Marvel are matched in tv shows although nothing seem to be as bad as inhumans and iron fist for dc is you all go by your media stuff.

    DC is ruled by creative freedom and artistic integrity, marvel is ruled by selfish superficial cooperate thinking.

    DC is a better entertainment company than marvel and will only get better while marvel will get worse.

  11. #911
    Mighty Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaddor View Post
    DC have better movies.

    Dc has better video games

    DC has better comics

    DC has better animations

    DC and Marvel are matched in tv shows although nothing seem to be as bad as inhumans and iron fist for dc is you all go by your media stuff.

    DC is ruled by creative freedom and artistic integrity, marvel is ruled by selfish superficial cooperate thinking.

    DC is a better entertainment company than marvel and will only get better while marvel will get worse.
    Nope. Sorry. None of that is taking place in real reality.
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  12. #912
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    I really don't think company wars arguments are gonna be very useful or relevant.

  13. #913
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    Quote Originally Posted by majormcmeat View Post
    I really don't think company wars arguments are gonna be very useful or relevant.
    Agreed

    Especially when opinion is expressed as fact

    We can all prefer one thing over another it's not an absolute value of virtue or quality

    that to me is an issue in terms of evaluating marvels "direction" coz it's not a single absolute

    People in the business have clarified books are planned out months before and one books planning likely has little relation to another if I understand correctly

    Maybe if there was a better oversight the marvel direction as we see it (which will depend on your perspective I suppose) might be seen differently

    But I'm not in the business so I don't know really

    Certainly I feel as a publishing house books should be grouped a little more as style and target audience but I think it's been tried and failed iirc

    It certainly helps me when looking at new books to try however

  14. #914

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    Evidently, most fans don't share these overtly political expectations of comic books. New Black Panther books are cancelled almost as soon as they are first published, to say nothing of the rest of Marvel's trailblazing political thrillers that regularly find themselves at the bottom of the bargain bin. Marvel's mistake is they are now actively trying to exclude what few dedicated readers they have left. Because itís not about proving you deserve to read a preachy Marvel book, it should be the other way around. When Marvel has to prove they deserve my money and the money of other comic books if they want to stay in business. Increasingly people are reaching the conclusion that Marvel's books simply aren't worth the hassle anymore.
    The main Black Panther title still does well enough. Other titles with heavy political focuses vary in sales. Some, like Nighthawk, didn't make it very far. Some, like Captain Samerica, seems to have done reasonably well. Regardless, my point stands: Different readers get different books for different reasons. My other point also stands: Marvel's got a shit-ton of fun escapist comics, contrary to your argument that they don't. You seem to want to pretend Marvel's line is full of political titles. It's not. They have a pretty wide range of titles. Some are overtly political. Most are not. You choose to focus on the political titles because you have a narrative that Marvel's dying as a result of their "agenda," so anything that doesn't fit into that narrative is ignored.

    But your narrative is false, and ignoring facts doesn't make them false. Marvel's line is mostly made up of the sort of escapist fantasy that you seem to think is the point of superhero comics.

    Quote Originally Posted by penthotal View Post
    If people that wants classic heroes are in the majority, why in a >50 page threads like this, about 80% of the post pro classic heroes have been written by just two people? Seems a tiny obsessed vocal minority to me.
    Message boards are a terrible way of judging fan reaction. Just in general. The truth is, we actually don't have a way of gauging overall fan reaction to anything, because we don't have access to the actual sales data.

  15. #915
    Astonishing Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaddor View Post
    DC have better movies.

    Dc has better video games

    DC has better comics

    DC has better animations

    DC and Marvel are matched in tv shows although nothing seem to be as bad as inhumans and iron fist for dc is you all go by your media stuff.

    DC is ruled by creative freedom and artistic integrity, marvel is ruled by selfish superficial cooperate thinking.

    DC is a better entertainment company than marvel and will only get better while marvel will get worse.
    What movies are you talking about Exactly? Current recent years movies? Because if so Marvel has a Much Better track record for their movies and have done an incredible job of tying the movies to this big vast universe in a way that DC is currently rushing to catch up to. To each their own in terms of what movies they like from either company. Personally I'm not biased to either and like a good super hero movie regardless of Which company makes it. But I it's current set up Marvel has done the better job of setting up the expanding marvel cinematic universe Then DC to date.

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