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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Gerard View Post

    Anyway, DiDio was really big on stories and concepts you could summarize in one sentence. That was most of his beef with legacy characters and stuff like Peter David's Supergirl. This got mistaken for DiDio being a silver age guy. I think he liked the quirkier silver age stuff at DC (Doom Patrol, Metal Men) and horror books but was, in terms of personal taste, more of a Marvel guy. I don't think he had any special opposition to Wally or Kyle aside from the fact that they had longer backstories from being second gen. Had someone other than Johns been pitching, I think DiDio would have been just as happy keeping Wally IF it meant erasing Barry from Wally's backstory to simplify it. With GL, well, Hal had an advantage because he was on more action figures and lunchboxes. The key thing was Dan was always that he wanted comics you could evangelize about to people who'd never read a comic before. He was more ambitious about sales targets than most.
    This is why so many people like myself think Didio was such a horrible thing for DC. This mindview assumes that comics readers and the general populace are dumb, and causes comics to be dumbed down to compensate for the dumbness of the public. DC had maintained a consistency of vision and progression for years beforehand, and was producing higher quality books because of it, and that was thrown out in the 90s.

    Complicated backstories are nothing to shy away from. The PAD Supergirl remains not only the longest running and best Supergirl series to date, but it was selling higher at issue 80 than the subsequent Kara Supergirl book was selling at issue 67.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    Since Rebirth is in flux I treat his canon like I do Batman's meaning I no matter the era consider Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams run canon so here's my Superman canon for me.

    Lucy has a son Sam with Ron (He has custody off panel in my head).

    Lex was President and Pete Ross was his VP and President for a time.

    Lex had a daughter named Lena named after his sister he gave up to Brainiac for more power.

    While Lex may have not been in the foster care system? He was raised in Suicide Slums and did at least kill Lionel for insurance money.

    The late Perry "Jerry" White Jr. Was Lex's son.

    While not Superboy in the present era Clark did travel to the future and was Superboy with the Legion for a time as a teen.

    Connor existed with all Post-Crisis history.

    Linda Danvers was Supergirl before Kara in my head canon Jeremiah is Fred's brother and thus her uncle and she is retired.

    Shrunken Kandor is an alien city not Kryptonian like Post-Crisis I like the Phantom Zone with Kryptonians but Kandor does feel like too many Kryptonians survived and makes Kal and Kara less special.

    Jonathan is dead but Martha isn't just off panel (I know there's no chance but I like to pretend).

    I also consider some bronze age things canon too.
    Luthor' s "presidency" should be erased, forgotten and never mentioned again.
    Last edited by Rod G; 09-06-2017 at 12:46 PM.
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    DC: Blue Beetle (possible)

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    The PAD Supergirl remains not only the longest running and best Supergirl series to date, but it was selling higher at issue 80 than the subsequent Kara Supergirl book was selling at issue 67.
    I don't think it's ever really fair to compare more recent stuff from stuff a decade or two ago (or further). More recent years have had lower sales overall regardless of character publisher etc...

    I mean it was at one point the number of copies sold for ANY one comic would ridiculously outclass current sales numbers after all.


    But yeah shying away from that stuff, I'd totally keep the Pokolistan Zod and have him grow into being a benevolent dictator ala Doctor Doom or Black Adam.

    Also bring back Cir-El but as I've said elsewhere have her THINK she's Superman's daughter etc (though the thought bit isn't completely necessary)... only for us to reveal that she's now Pokolistan Zod's daughter/ Supergirl.

    Double points if both Zod's work together on occassion and their kids get along (Chris Kent and Cir-El) and both Zod's don't necessarilly like one another but often have aligned motives.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyroTwilight View Post
    I don't think it's ever really fair to compare more recent stuff from stuff a decade or two ago (or further). More recent years have had lower sales overall regardless of character publisher etc...

    I mean it was at one point the number of copies sold for ANY one comic would ridiculously outclass current sales numbers after all.

    It debuted at #6 in sales, so not sure when it could have been the best-selling comic when it was all downhill from there.

    It's a comparison between a comic from 2003 and a comic from 2011, neither of which is recent anymore. The point is that it is representative of the problem with DC as a whole during that period. Better stories, books, and characters were thrown out in favor of cheap short term marketing, and the result was a loss of sales in the long term, until they rebooted. The Nu52 suffered a similar problem in putting short-term marketing ahead of character and story development, and its sales eventually tanked leading to Rebirth.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    This is why so many people like myself think Didio was such a horrible thing for DC. This mindview assumes that comics readers and the general populace are dumb, and causes comics to be dumbed down to compensate for the dumbness of the public.
    And this is why fans are shortsighted.

    Core fans are well versed and very knowledgeable about the characters they follow.

    However, a company needs MORE than core fans. They need casual fans and new fans to replace core fans who age or transition out (and in fact, generally, the number of casual fans should outnumber the core fans).

    The casual and new fans need the elevator pitch...a summation of of concepts in one sentence. If they don't get the character nearly right off, they're just going to pass and move along. It's the core of ANY business, not just comics.

    This is not inconsistent with rich backstories....but you cannot make the complicated history a major feature----that's for later, AFTER you get a reader intrigued and hooked.

  6. #36
    Notorious M.O.S. Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokimaru View Post
    He deserved just as much of a chance as post crises Superman did. That's the hypocrisy of the whole affair. Post Crises Supes got over by piggy backing off his predecessors Earth 1 successes. I really wish I could see the letters section at the time and what people made of the switch.
    I didn't join forums until a few years ago basically, so until they went away I pored over letters to see what other readers thought. I still recognize many names of readers to this day. The early post crisis didn't necessarily avoid negative letters, but mostly what they published were skeptics who converted after trying or people who were relieved to see the goofiness gone.

    In addition, here's a link to page 122 of Ages of Superman, where they mention the decline from the 50s circulation of maybe a million to about 80,000 pre crisis, and how the numbers were roughly double that until Byrne left. Funny thing, that's when it really got good.

    Here is also a N.Y. Times post from early on. You can see that Byrne said some of the same things Morrison would say later. As always, there couldn't be a unanimous decision among fans, but the positivity was strong.

    Ultimately, new and lapsed readers turn the tide, and they normally demand an easier entry for their money and attention. It's not to imply anyone is dumb or to annoy core readers when creators try for accessibility: Marvel had huge success when Shooter had them approach every issue as a reader's first.

    Superman himself ironically didn't become a continuity beast until around then either, because they created many earlier stories with little hang up on making sure it didn't contradict something else.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokimaru View Post
    He deserved just as much of a chance as post crises Superman did. That's the hypocrisy of the whole affair. Post Crises Supes got over by piggy backing off his predecessors Earth 1 successes. I really wish I could see the letters section at the time and what people made of the switch.
    The impression that I'm getting from some of the stuff that I've read is that the Superman offices in particular didn't want to do the New 52. I don't know that I would go so far as to say that they deliberately undermined it but they were certainly the most vocal about being relieved when it was gone. My support stemmed mostly from the fact that I thought continuity had become too convoluted and needed to be simplified. This is why I gave the new Earth One series a chance. Of course that looks like it might be over with too. Being a comics fan is a weird sacrifice.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwangung View Post
    And this is why fans are shortsighted.

    Core fans are well versed and very knowledgeable about the characters they follow.

    However, a company needs MORE than core fans. They need casual fans and new fans to replace core fans who age or transition out (and in fact, generally, the number of casual fans should outnumber the core fans).

    The casual and new fans need the elevator pitch...a summation of of concepts in one sentence. If they don't get the character nearly right off, they're just going to pass and move along. It's the core of ANY business, not just comics.

    This is not inconsistent with rich backstories....but you cannot make the complicated history a major feature----that's for later, AFTER you get a reader intrigued and hooked.

    No one's arguing that. But when you have nothing beyond that first hooked, people don't stay. And the results of that can be seen in the sales figures and in how many of those aspects are being reversed in Rebirth. There are a ton of ways to hook people on something like the PAD Supergirl in a sentence, and as comics are a visual medium, the cover art. She's an angel. She's a sinner given great powers and a chance to atone for her past ect. A cover of Supergirl with wings of fire would get people's attention because it it so different from what they expect from comics related to Superman.

    To go even further, Flash is 'the fastest man alive' whether he's Barry, Wally, or anyone else. That is the hook, and no amount of complicated backstory will change that. Kara may be 'Superman's cousin,' but the logistics of having a noticeably younger survivor of Krypton when Superman escaped the planet's explosion as a baby means that her backstory is always going to be convoluted no matter she is introduced. It's the same problem. When you throw out characters without a reason other than 'too complicated,' all you're doing is killing story potential.

  9. #39
    Incredible Member Adekis's Avatar
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    I don't think it'll surprise anyone who's ever interacted with me on this board if I say that I refuse to accept that the new "anything goes" backstory for Reborn starts with a Donneresque helicopter rescue instead of the Morrisonian pseudo-Golden Age. If it never comes back and they never do anything else with it, that's sure disappointing, but I kind of get it. Most Superman fans aren't fans because of Siegel and Shuster these days, and the kinds of stories they usually told aren't much like the kind Superman's famous for. The pseudo-Golden Age still has to be there though. Especially in a more holistic "anything goes" kind of approach (which I do think is probably a good thing honestly), there's absolutely no reason to get rid of it.



    On an unrelated note, I'm a really big fan of Silver/Bronze Age Luthor and the idea that he doesn't bother trying to find out Superman's secret identity because he himself has dozens of secret identities, using and discarding them as needed, and just assumes Superman's the same way with his.
    Last edited by Adekis; 09-06-2017 at 12:04 PM.
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  10. #40
    Sun of the Mourning Montressor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    I don't think it'll surprise anyone who's ever interacted with me on this board if I say that I refuse to accept that the new "anything goes" backstory for Reborn starts with a Donneresque helicopter rescue instead of the Morrisonian pseudo-Golden Age. If it never comes back and they never do anything else with it, that's sure disappointing, but I kind of get it. Most Superman fans aren't fans because of Siegel and Shuster these days, and the kinds of stories they usually told aren't much like the kind Superman's famous for. The pseudo-Golden Age still has to be there though. Especially in a more holistic "anything goes" kind of approach (which I do think is probably a good thing honestly), there's absolutely no reason to get rid of it.



    On an unrelated note, I'm a really big fan of Silver/Bronze Age Luthor and the idea that he doesn't bother trying to find out Superman's secret identity because he himself has dozens of secret identities, using and discarding them as needed, and just assumes Superman's the same way with his.
    I really enjoyed the above look for the 'early in his career and not yet established' Superman. I wouldn't mind if they kept this as Superboy's look after they finally re-instate his entire history with the Legion during his teens.
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  11. #41
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    I liked it, but unlike others don't think it works as anything within the realm of a potential lasting look. I think it works only in the context of "new guy introducing the age of superheroes but doesn't have it all together yet". Its a rudimentary look for the very beginning of a career. In that context its brilliant. Outside of that context, its just street clothes and I have a long standing hatred for street clothes as costumes.
    They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son. - Jor-El.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Thanks for that. I know they were absolutely rolling with that as effective origin at least early on, and they had some idea for Pok Zod. But my memories of behind-the-scenes or fandom stuff are hazy. Didn't know or remember the timeline between Loeb and Waid origin scheduling.
    Loeb's was approved probably circa Emperor Joker. Late 2000. Birthright was maybe circa 2002.

    I'll confess that while a lot of comics folks are influenced by Claremont's "slow burn" stories, I think it's a strategic mistake in hindsight. Kind of like the Red Lantern Supergirl stuff. Great creative team. Neat idea. And they wanted to end up with Supergirl in a happier place. But I think if you want to get somewhere in comics, you need to just GO THERE. If you want a happier Supergirl, you cheat however you have to to get there in six issues or less. Likewise Secret Empire and a lot of stuff.

    That doesn't mean I'm against lengthy runs or lulls where you do more character stuff or gradual build-ups. But odds are anything you take your time doing will end up in conflict with somebody else's agenda. Part of what made the Morrison JLA work. Aside from Mageddon, Zauriel, and Aztek being slated for death, everything happens at a brisk clip. And the early Tomasi/Gleason Superman. Look at that. Superman gets the key to the city in the first or second issue. Bibbo is thrown in as shorthand to say, "He's accepted." The book -- for 20 odd issues -- never lingers on anything. It has some big plots. Manchester Black and Hamilton were being seeded. But there's never a status quo they're trying to get to. The status quo for the first 20 issues is setup in the first 2. And now that it's pivoting towards life in Metropolis, it's a hard pivot to a new status quo.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyroTwilight View Post
    I don't think it's ever really fair to compare more recent stuff from stuff a decade or two ago (or further). More recent years have had lower sales overall regardless of character publisher etc...

    I mean it was at one point the number of copies sold for ANY one comic would ridiculously outclass current sales numbers after all.


    But yeah shying away from that stuff, I'd totally keep the Pokolistan Zod and have him grow into being a benevolent dictator ala Doctor Doom or Black Adam.

    Also bring back Cir-El but as I've said elsewhere have her THINK she's Superman's daughter etc (though the thought bit isn't completely necessary)... only for us to reveal that she's now Pokolistan Zod's daughter/ Supergirl.

    Double points if both Zod's work together on occassion and their kids get along (Chris Kent and Cir-El) and both Zod's don't necessarilly like one another but often have aligned motives.
    I think the key to using Pokolistan Zod is identifying him by his human name.

    Avruiskin, Subject Zed.

    Zed is a bit silly as a Russian identifier. The last letter in their alphabet is Я, pronounced and anglicized as "Ya". Maybe something like Yakov Avruiskin. Replace the Z's with Я's. He's a Kryptonite meteor freak Doctor Doom who carved Pokolistan out of eastern Hungary and the traditional Transylvanian lands, using his powers to establish a regime. Replace Faora. Get Ignition a backstory (as he's never had one). 'Nuff said.

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Gerard View Post
    Loeb's was approved probably circa Emperor Joker. Late 2000. Birthright was maybe circa 2002.

    I'll confess that while a lot of comics folks are influenced by Claremont's "slow burn" stories, I think it's a strategic mistake in hindsight. Kind of like the Red Lantern Supergirl stuff. Great creative team. Neat idea. And they wanted to end up with Supergirl in a happier place. But I think if you want to get somewhere in comics, you need to just GO THERE. If you want a happier Supergirl, you cheat however you have to to get there in six issues or less. Likewise Secret Empire and a lot of stuff.

    That doesn't mean I'm against lengthy runs or lulls where you do more character stuff or gradual build-ups. But odds are anything you take your time doing will end up in conflict with somebody else's agenda. Part of what made the Morrison JLA work. Aside from Mageddon, Zauriel, and Aztek being slated for death, everything happens at a brisk clip. And the early Tomasi/Gleason Superman. Look at that. Superman gets the key to the city in the first or second issue. Bibbo is thrown in as shorthand to say, "He's accepted." The book -- for 20 odd issues -- never lingers on anything. It has some big plots. Manchester Black and Hamilton were being seeded. But there's never a status quo they're trying to get to. The status quo for the first 20 issues is setup in the first 2. And now that it's pivoting towards life in Metropolis, it's a hard pivot to a new status quo.
    I'm curious, and I've never been able to find someone who would know the answer to this, what was Birthright originally supposed to be? Was it going to be DC's version of the Ultimates or was it always intended to be a hard reboot designed to make the books look more like Smallville? It certainly had a lot of elements similar to the show. Lex as schoolmate of Clark's. Lana as cheerleader with another boyfriend. Clark as outcast who hides his powers. Birthright was far and away my favorite Superman origin and I'm really disappointed it didn't work out.
    Listen, lady! I am thirteen years old and driving a Bat-hog through the Amazon on a Tuesday morning! I am ALREADY winning!

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  15. #45
    Mighty Member FishyZombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montressor View Post
    I really enjoyed the above look for the 'early in his career and not yet established' Superman. I wouldn't mind if they kept this as Superboy's look after they finally re-instate his entire history with the Legion during his teens.
    yeah, hoping for that too. Retroactively make Clark start the "superboy and jeans" tradition, as a neat bonus.
    I honestly wouldn't have minded if he wore that a lot longer than he did, something about proto-costumes for me, but yeah it would have been silly if the guy who made costumed crimefighting popular, stopped wearing a costume.

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