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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    I'm curious, and I've never been able to find someone who would know the answer to this, what was Birthright originally supposed to be? Was it going to be DC's version of the Ultimates or was it always intended to be a hard reboot designed to make the books look more like Smallville? It certainly had a lot of elements similar to the show. Lex as schoolmate of Clark's. Lana as cheerleader with another boyfriend. Clark as outcast who hides his powers. Birthright was far and away my favorite Superman origin and I'm really disappointed it didn't work out.
    It was originally supposed to be kind of Ultimate-like, yeah. I know it was expanded by about 4 issues and the original outline was for 8. The Luthor stuff accounted for most of the added stuff. My IMPRESSION as a reader was that it was basically Waid's go at a Superman screenplay.

  2. #47
    Kingdom Come Board Original Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    I don't think it'll surprise anyone who's ever interacted with me on this board if I say that I refuse to accept that the new "anything goes" backstory for Reborn starts with a Donneresque helicopter rescue instead of the Morrisonian pseudo-Golden Age. If it never comes back and they never do anything else with it, that's sure disappointing, but I kind of get it. Most Superman fans aren't fans because of Siegel and Shuster these days, and the kinds of stories they usually told aren't much like the kind Superman's famous for. The pseudo-Golden Age still has to be there though. Especially in a more holistic "anything goes" kind of approach (which I do think is probably a good thing honestly), there's absolutely no reason to get rid of it.

    I don't think there's anything that directly contradicts all of the "jeans & t-shirt" rough n' tumble social crusader era quite yet. You can still squeeze it in if you'd like.

    My personal view is that the first costume Clark wore was indeed the classic tights n' trunks outfit Ma Kent made for him in Smallville that he wore during his time with the Legion of Super-Heroes. However, after the death of Ma & Pa Kent when he was 18, Clark was devastated and angry, so powers were reduced drastically down to their faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound levels. This is when he first moved to Metropolis and he operated secretly in the T-shirt & jeans as an urban legend, doing his social crusader shtick like the angry young man he was for a couple months while working for the Daily Star.

    When he'd dealt with the loss of his foster parents more, his powers returned to their former levels and he re-donned the classic outfit in time to get hired by the Daily Planet, meet Lois & Jimmy and have his very Donner-esque first rescue of Lois, which was his first real public appearance that got everyone's attention.

  3. #48
    Invincible Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    To use my imagination with the suit I'm imagining something like this:

    The Original Superboy suit: As a boy Martha crafts the first suit out of materials from Kal-El's swaddling cloths after being beamed an image of Kryptonian garb. His grandfather's cloak that Jor-El also covered Kal with becomes his cape. He doesn't much care for this suit originally, but he ends up using when he meets the Legion and has some adventures with them. He slow gains an affinity for it. He grows out of everything except the cape and after his parents' death he keeps it as a keepsake of now not only a reminder of his Kryptonian homeworld but now his Earth parents as well. He packs it up and brings it with him when he leaves Smallville.

    T-shirt and jeans: During Clark's college years and his travels, no longer being able to fit into his Superboy costume, when he felt the need and it was safe enough to patrol without much detection, he'd put on an old pair of jeans and work boots, any old t-shirt he had lying around, and bring his cape along for some extra protection as his powers were still GA levels. (The S is only on his cape this time around, he's not living in Metropolis yet and he's still not public so he's not going to be creating custom t-shirts like in the New 52 version). As careful as he is inevitably rumor begins to grow about a vigilante offering his aid who seems to have enhanced strength.

    1st Classic Adult Suit: Some years later he acquires the Fortress of Solitude and the robot Kelex. He also undergoes a drastic increase in power. Kelex creates him a replica of the suit his mother had made for him, fitted for his adult size, but still donning the original cape, and debuts as Superman. The Superboy costume is kept safe in the Fortress. The suit he debuts in he wears until his death, when its destroyed in his fight with Doomsday.

    Black Regeneration Suit: After his return, he wears this suti for the brief period when he's depowered after returning to life. With Matrix Supergirl no longer in continuity, this suit isn't transformed into the classic look with her powers. Instead, when he's done with it he stores this suit as well at the Fortress, and Kelex creates him his second classic costume.

    Second Classic Costume: Superman wears this up until his powers change shortly after he and Lois marry.

    Electric Containment Suit: Same as pre-FP, he wore this suit only when his powers changed and once done with it, to the Fortress it goes for storage. As a segue, in my head I'd come up with a new reason for the electric powers, maybe account for it by saying it was a mixture of factors: he lost his powers during the Final Night, and during this time he and Lois took a break. Being down he spends a lot of time with his friend Lana who still has the Red Kryptonite pendant that will later give her herself energy powers. Being exposed to this for an extended period with none of his normal powers, it affects Superman in an odd way and gives him energy based powers.



    Ceremonial Battle Suit: After regaining his classic powers, Superman briefly returns to classic costume #2 but not longer after an event kind of like the New 52 storylien with the Collector of Worlds occur. Superman takes on Brainiac and in his skull ship finds the bottle city of Kandor and a set of Kryptonian battle armor. After defeating Brainiac he takes both artifacts, and Superman decides to wear this new costume. He would wear this suit during the time that Lois is pregnant, up until her run-in with Intergang.

    Black Suit #2: After Intergang targets Lois after her investigation of them, Clark takes his wife and newborn son to California to live incognito for a while. He takes this opportunity to also take sabbatical from Superman for a year or so, to be with his newborn son around the clock. He still patrols occasionally at night, but not wanting to be noticed easily and allowing anyone to draw any connection to Lois from Superman's known locations, he wears an incognito black suit. But he brain farts from cooing at his baby so much that he still decides to emblazon an big S on it. When Intergang is stopped, and when Jon is around a year old, the family decides to move to Hamilton County to raise Jon in the country, but he returns full-time as Superman and goes back to wearing the battle suit.

    Reborn costume: Around the time of Jon's tenth birthday and the beginning of his encounters with the being known as Mr. Oz and the adventures/mysteries surrounding him, Superman feels like a change but instead of going back to his old costume, he has Kelex design something new. A new costume for the new era that begins when Superman decides its time to introduce Jon to the world of superheroes after his son begins developing powers. He then debuts the current costume and continues to wear it to this day.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 09-06-2017 at 10:06 PM.
    They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son. - Jor-El.

  4. #49
    Astonishing Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Birthright is still Superman's canon origin to me. Infinite Crisis and DC mismanagement of the Superman franchise didn't put it out continuity after just 2 years of its publication.

  5. #50
    Mighty Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Know View Post
    Discarded Superman continuity?

    Superman being The Last and Only Survivor of Krypton.
    yeah, that one... nah. I hate the idea of him being the only living Kryptonian.

  6. #51
    Mighty Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Him being the last living Kryptonian is something tragic. It gives a kind of sadness that he is the last of his race. He knows how fragile life is. He himself is the last remainder of a vast planet which was destroyed in a wink. It is a good idea.

    Having lots of survivors removes this loneliness. He is not the last of his kind. It removes his underlying tragedy a bit.

    And yet i am in love with Supergirl and Krypto. By making him the last survivor they won't exist. I don't want that. Zod is there already. Unless killed as in Man Of Steel(ugh!) he is not the sole survivor of Krypton. And to be frank Supergirl is better. She is really alienated as she lost her old life in Krypton. She could lose it again as Superman is the last part of her homeworld. And she is awesome.

    I did not like Krypto earlier. But after All Star and recent appearances my mind changed. Superman having his own Superdog! Why did i hate this idea? It is brilliant. I love Krypto.

    So i don't hate this idea but i like that this is gone. It is better to have the likes of Supergirl and Krypto by discarding this idea.

    I have read Superman after Rebirth so i don't know a lot about past continuity. I have read some issues after COIE. I am really surprised that i want this story in continuity. I don't like any past loves of Superman. I want Superman to live with Lois till the end of time. Yet i want Lori Lemaris in canon. There was an issue 'Lost Love'. I think it was Superman #12. I loved that issue. The love between Lori and Superman was tinged with sadness because they could not be together. After her death Superman remembered her and it was a touching issue. Even the cover was beautiful. I want this story in continuity.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 09-07-2017 at 03:22 AM.

  7. #52
    Sun of the Mourning Montressor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    Him being the last living Kryptonian is something tragic. It gives a kind of sadness that he is the last of his race. He knows how fragile life is. He himself is the last remainder of a vast planet which was destroyed in a wink. It is a good idea.

    Having lots of survivors removes this loneliness. He is not the last of his kind. It removes his underlying tragedy a bit.

    And yet i am in love with Supergirl and Krypto. By making him the last survivor they won't exist. I don't want that. Zod is there already. Unless killed as in Man Of Steel(ugh!) he is not the sole survivor of Krypton. And to be frank Supergirl is better. She is really alienated as she lost her old life in Krypton. She could lose it again as Superman is the last part of her homeworld. And she is awesome.

    I did not like Krypto earlier. But after All Star and recent appearances my mind changed. Superman having his own Superdog! Why did i hate this idea? It is brilliant. I love Krypto.

    So i don't hate this idea but i like that this is gone. It is better to have the likes of Supergirl and Krypto by discarding this idea.

    I have read Superman after Rebirth so i don't know a lot about past continuity. I have read some issues after COIE. I am really surprised that i want this story in continuity. I don't like any past loves of Superman. I want Superman to live with Lois till the end of time. Yet i want Lori Lemaris in canon. There was an issue 'Lost Love'. I think it was Superman #12. I loved that issue. The love between Lori and Superman was tinged with sadness because they could not be together. After her death Superman remembered her and it was a touching issue. Even the cover was beautiful. I want this story in continuity.
    As a kid I didn't like Krypto either, I thought concepts like that were old and outdated, and I was happy to see those things go away in the first Crisis. I remember loving the idea of him being the ONLY Kryptonian, Nowadays--and sure,some of it is nostalgia and and newfound love of 'retro' ideas--I love Krypto, I'm a fan of General Zod (though I really, really enjoy the pre-Crisis version). I love cheesy things like the Supermobile, even. It just takes me back to my childhood and my fascination with things like that, a Super Man having Super Things. My only dislikes after Byrne's reboot were things like the suit not being from Krypton (though I didn't mind at first, it sort of made Superman 'new', seeing his suit ripped after a battle), his lower power level, getting rid of the Fortress. I loved that Supergirl could still be around--at least, a version of her--and not be a Kryptonian. Nowadays I have no problem with all these things being back, though I think they could turn it down a bit (Supergirl doesn't really need her parents alive even though they were around pre-Crisis as well, to me they were just Kryptonians who were around for no reason, and Zor El is just a complete mess, what they've done to him). Thanks to whoever dialed back Krypto's look, also. While I thought the wolf look was cool and different I just love his original look and am glad to see it back.
    Last edited by Montressor; 09-07-2017 at 04:59 AM.
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  8. #53
    Mighty Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montressor View Post
    As a kid I didn't like Krypto either, I thought concepts like that were old and outdated, and I was happy to see those things go away in the first Crisis. I remember loving the idea of him being the ONLY Kryptonian, Nowadays--and sure,some of it is nostalgia and and newfound love of 'retro' ideas--I love Krypto, I'm a fan of General Zod (though I really, really enjoy the pre-Crisis version). I love cheesy things like the Supermobile, even. It just takes me back to my childhood and my fascination with things like that, a Super Man having Super Things. My only dislikes after Byrne's reboot were things like the suit not being from Krypton (though I didn't mind at first, it sort of made Superman 'new', seeing his suit ripped after a battle), his lower power level, getting rid of the Fortress. I loved that Supergirl could still be around--at least, a version of her--and not be a Kryptonian. Nowadays I have no problem with all these things being back, though I think they could turn it down a bit (Supergirl doesn't really need her parents alive even though they were around pre-Crisis as well, to me they were just Kryptonians who were around for no reason, and Zor El is just a complete mess, what they've done to him). Thanks to whoever dialed back Krypto's look, also. While I thought the wolf look was cool and different I just love his original look and am glad to see it back.
    This is the problem isn't it. Either we discard everything as after COIE or we go back in such a way that even Zor-El is alive. Even if Superman is not the last survivor of Krypton it shall not be that there is whole crowd waiting. Anyway i am loving this. They are trying to take best from all places. This is the best approach. Keep some seriousness or else it may turn into something very childish but keep the parts which worked. And i love Supermobile. Even though i have not read any silver age and not familiar with a lot of things i am really loving this.

    Where else can i see Superman play catch with Supermobile with his cousin while he is on Earth and she is on moon? It is so much fun. Thank you. It is nice to hear from you.

  9. #54
    Astonishing Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    yeah, that one... nah. I hate the idea of him being the only living Kryptonian.
    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    Him being the last living Kryptonian is something tragic. It gives a kind of sadness that he is the last of his race. He knows how fragile life is. He himself is the last remainder of a vast planet which was destroyed in a wink. It is a good idea.

    Having lots of survivors removes this loneliness. He is not the last of his kind. It removes his underlying tragedy a bit.

    And yet i am in love with Supergirl and Krypto. By making him the last survivor they won't exist. I don't want that. Zod is there already. Unless killed as in Man Of Steel(ugh!) he is not the sole survivor of Krypton. And to be frank Supergirl is better. She is really alienated as she lost her old life in Krypton. She could lose it again as Superman is the last part of her homeworld. And she is awesome.

    I did not like Krypto earlier. But after All Star and recent appearances my mind changed. Superman having his own Superdog! Why did i hate this idea? It is brilliant. I love Krypto.

    So i don't hate this idea but i like that this is gone. It is better to have the likes of Supergirl and Krypto by discarding this idea.

    I have read Superman after Rebirth so i don't know a lot about past continuity. I have read some issues after COIE. I am really surprised that i want this story in continuity. I don't like any past loves of Superman. I want Superman to live with Lois till the end of time. Yet i want Lori Lemaris in canon. There was an issue 'Lost Love'. I think it was Superman #12. I loved that issue. The love between Lori and Superman was tinged with sadness because they could not be together. After her death Superman remembered her and it was a touching issue. Even the cover was beautiful. I want this story in continuity.
    It's funny because DC keeps to the last Martian (J'onn Jonnz) better than they do the Last Son of Krypton. In fact, most Martian Manhunter arcs and runs have J'onn cope with the fact that he's the last of his kind and there's nothing he can do to change it. Despite his longing to want to change it. Works a lot better with J'onn, because unlike Superman, J'onn doesn't appear human without shapeshifting.
    Last edited by Kuwagaton; 09-07-2017 at 07:42 AM. Reason: internet forced link into wording

  10. #55

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    You know, the disparate replies in this thread warm my heart. That so many of our favorite stories from so many conflicting eras could plausibly be canon now shows how strong the framework is for the current timeline. This is the best chance the Superman fanbase has at being united as one since 1986.

    I'm cautiously optimistic that DC couldn't possibly screw it up this time.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    I don't think it'll surprise anyone who's ever interacted with me on this board if I say that I refuse to accept that the new "anything goes" backstory for Reborn starts with a Donneresque helicopter rescue instead of the Morrisonian pseudo-Golden Age. If it never comes back and they never do anything else with it, that's sure disappointing, but I kind of get it. Most Superman fans aren't fans because of Siegel and Shuster these days, and the kinds of stories they usually told aren't much like the kind Superman's famous for. The pseudo-Golden Age still has to be there though. Especially in a more holistic "anything goes" kind of approach (which I do think is probably a good thing honestly), there's absolutely no reason to get rid of it.



    On an unrelated note, I'm a really big fan of Silver/Bronze Age Luthor and the idea that he doesn't bother trying to find out Superman's secret identity because he himself has dozens of secret identities, using and discarding them as needed, and just assumes Superman's the same way with his.
    I'm right there with you. That was the best addition to the mythos in a long time in my opinion. Taking Superman back to his roots in his early days is absolutely critical now in my opinion.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    Him being the last living Kryptonian is something tragic. It gives a kind of sadness that he is the last of his race. He knows how fragile life is. He himself is the last remainder of a vast planet which was destroyed in a wink. It is a good idea.

    Having lots of survivors removes this loneliness. He is not the last of his kind. It removes his underlying tragedy a bit.

    And yet i am in love with Supergirl and Krypto. By making him the last survivor they won't exist. I don't want that. Zod is there already. Unless killed as in Man Of Steel(ugh!) he is not the sole survivor of Krypton. And to be frank Supergirl is better. She is really alienated as she lost her old life in Krypton. She could lose it again as Superman is the last part of her homeworld. And she is awesome.

    I did not like Krypto earlier. But after All Star and recent appearances my mind changed. Superman having his own Superdog! Why did i hate this idea? It is brilliant. I love Krypto.

    So i don't hate this idea but i like that this is gone. It is better to have the likes of Supergirl and Krypto by discarding this idea.

    I have read Superman after Rebirth so i don't know a lot about past continuity. I have read some issues after COIE. I am really surprised that i want this story in continuity. I don't like any past loves of Superman. I want Superman to live with Lois till the end of time. Yet i want Lori Lemaris in canon. There was an issue 'Lost Love'. I think it was Superman #12. I loved that issue. The love between Lori and Superman was tinged with sadness because they could not be together. After her death Superman remembered her and it was a touching issue. Even the cover was beautiful. I want this story in continuity.
    In my mind there should be a time before supergirl's arrival ad before he encounters the phantom zone where he does in fact believe that he's the last of his kind. Krypto should absolutely be there and this could make superman even more attached to his dog as a child. Knowing krypto, a dog named after his lost homeworld, is the only other surviving lifeform from his planet would still carry the tragic aspects of his story. Growing up with that would be intense. And it creates the possibility for a strong character arc. Loneliness, to encountering the Phantom Zoners and being confronted with the nothion that all thats left of your people are the worst aspects of themselves and the self loathing that would come with that; and then the arrival of actual family and being introduced to the good side of his people, then having achild and continuing hi legacy knowing his family line continues after his and kara's generation. Its a perfect arc that starts in tragedy and ends in hope, which is what Superman is all about!

  13. #58
    Mighty Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Know View Post
    It's funny because DC keeps to the last Martian (J'onn Jonnz) better than they do the Last Son of Krypton. In fact, most Martian Manhunter arcs and runs have J'onn cope with the fact that he's the last of his kind and there's nothing he can do to change it. Despite his longing to want to change it. Works a lot better with J'onn, because unlike Superman, J'onn doesn't appear human without shapeshifting.
    There was one arc where they had J'onn fight several White Martians only to find out they'd been sent to attack him by a GREEN Martian! Which is an interesting duality. J'onn is typically the last Green Martian, but the Whites? there's been dozens seen. Heck one of them joined the Teen Titans!

    And here's a page form when Cay'an met M'gann:
    http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/2276243.html

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    There was one arc where they had J'onn fight several White Martians only to find out they'd been sent to attack him by a GREEN Martian! Which is an interesting duality. J'onn is typically the last Green Martian, but the Whites? there's been dozens seen. Heck one of them joined the Teen Titans!

    And here's a page form when Cay'an met M'gann:
    http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/2276243.html
    I suppose DC could have had its cake and eaten it too if they'd just said Krypton had a heavy Daxamite population. Zod's, say, a Daxamite military attache sent to enforce a "no space exploration treaty". Kara, well... Avoiding the goofy dodge of a planet Argo, just say she's half-Daxamite on her mother's side. It feels sometimes like the "Last Son" business was designed to get rid of concepts some folks didn't like since the concepts could have worked in a fairly straightforward way.

    Heck, Walt Simonson's reboot pitch for Crisis was to suggest (with some wiggle room to reverse) that all of the Kryptonians Superman had met were from another planet trying to gain Superman's loyalty. Simonson also had the plan flexible enough to reverse it when he was done but that would have made Superman the "last son" without removing anything.

  15. #60
    Notorious M.O.S. Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    If I had a single favorite creator of all time, or had one magic wish to have someone do Superman, it'd be Walt. Do you have a link to him talking about Superman?

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