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  1. #1
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    Default Superman#30 Discussion and Spoilers

    spoilers:
    A sound "conclusion" to the story...well, I say ''conclusion'' to the Superman portion, apparently you have to pick up the next two issues of Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps to find out exactly what goes down with Paralax and Sinestro's ring.

    Nevertheless, interesting double spread reflecting Clark's fears...one obvious one is, again, Jon turning on him, but others include Jon being bullied, Clark turning into Doomsday (New 52 callback?), and Lois developing stage four cancer (a scenario which had been speculated by us for Doomsday Clock)

    And, whoops, the next issue blurb reads "Apokolips Now", just shows how last minute the insertion of the Deathstroke story was.
    end of spoilers

  2. #2
    Spectacular Member Superfan90's Avatar
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    This is how Superman should be. Assured of himself.


    http://postimg.org/image/44ps19pmd/

  3. #3
    Mighty Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfan90 View Post
    This is how Superman should be. Assured of himself.


    http://postimg.org/image/44ps19pmd/
    I agree with you absolutely.

  4. #4
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    I said this when the preview came out too, but the dialogue was much better than it's been for a while with this issue.

  5. #5
    Fantastic Member The Learner's Avatar
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    I was really looking forward to a Superman vs Sinestro clash. Lack of it was a bummer. 7/10 for this arc.

  6. #6
    Fantastic Member Lvenger's Avatar
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    A solid issue, it was good to see the Anti Matter universe explored and the interactions between Superman and Sinestro were handled well. Dialogue was much better than it has been over the last few issues and Superman sounded suitably inspiring at the end. However, Super Parallax was short lived which I felt was kind of cheap and the lack of a proper Superman vs Sinestro fight was disappointing. Still, it was enjoyable to read.

  7. #7
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    I am so sick of seeing Lois have nothing to do in these issues, but it's even worse that it's now become a pattern to have her meager part be reduced to the 1950's housewife who asks her husband how his day is and gets him pie. This is two issues now of Superman where Lois is the designated pie server in stories where she's given little to do. They really need to start integrating her better and the stories need to start integrating the Metropolis and Daily Planet sides of Superman's mythos better.

  8. #8
    Last Son of Shaolin GreatKungLao's Avatar
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    Superman saves Parallax? This super hero never stops surprising me with his generosity.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    I am so sick of seeing Lois have nothing to do in these issues, but it's even worse that it's now become a pattern to have her meager part be reduced to the 1950's housewife who asks her husband how his day is and gets him pie. This is two issues now of Superman where Lois is the designated pie server in stories where she's given little to do. They really need to start integrating her better and the stories need to start integrating the Metropolis and Daily Planet sides of Superman's mythos better.
    I agree with this. This issue was not without merit. I am not a huge Lantern fan but I have a few friends who are to the point that I can appreciate some of the elements of the Lantern mythos brought into play here. It's not my choice for a Superman fill in issue but I can respect that for Lantern fans....it might be a fun treat. I also enjoyed some of the early set-up up of the first issue with the missing children and I did appreciate some of Superman's dialogue particularly when he talked about not allowing fear to rule one's choices. That was often a huge theme in the later Seasons of Smallville and it was one of the things I appreciated most about the series in the later years. I like that kind of frank dialogue about the way we can allow fear to rule our lives because I think that's relatable to all people.

    However, I'm just gonna get real here: the way Lois was treated at the end of this issue really, really upset me. This is becoming a very bad pattern and I'm truly baffled as to why this keeps happening to her.

    First off, Lois says, "Rough day at the office." Ok....that's a strange choice of words for LOIS LANE to use because they literally work at the same office and have for 8 decades.

    Second, Lois then says she caught the "Breaking news story" that the children had been found. HUH???? Lois Lane does not watch "breaking news" at home from her kitchen! She leads investigations! Why wasn't she out there working this story? Why is she always shown AT HOME? Imagine how much better this story would have been if Clark and Lois were working this story TOGETHER and Lois continued to search/research while Superman dealt with the Parallax. This made no sense.

    Finally, look....I feel like I'm becoming a broken record about the pie here but it's gotten really frustrating for me. And before anyone on here tries to tell me that "hey some women like to bake pies"....please do not. I am a married woman with a really busy job. I am a mother. And, sometimes, I like to bake pies. Usually on holidays. I agree completely that women---even working women---are complex figures. We have to play many different roles and wear different hats. But that doesn't change who we are as women---it doesn't change that we are ambitious and career driven and can have our own individual adventures. Marriage and motherhood have not fundamentally changed who I am as a woman. It has made me wiser, it has taught me to love harder, it has brought me both pleasure and PAIN that I've never known but I am still ME. This is not complexity we are seeing here on the pages of this book. What we are seeing is a famous female character who has notoriously been portrayed as extremely good at her job for 8 decades, repeatedly reduced to standing on the sidelines fulfilling a solely domestic role for a long time now in these books. She deserves better. They NEED to do better by her. I am thrilled the marriage is back and I really so like the concept of Lois as a mother but they MUST do better.

    Mystery stories like this would be SO MUCH better if they focused on Clark and Lois chasing mysteries together and following leads rather than continually allowing him to do the work himself while she sits at home. I'm tired of a female character this smart and this accomplished being used this way. It's not OK. And it makes me really, really sour about the direction of the Superman books.
    Last edited by Nelliebly; 09-06-2017 at 11:50 AM.

  10. #10
    Last Son of Shaolin GreatKungLao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    I agree with this. This issue was not without merit. I am not a huge Lantern fan but I have a few friends who are to the point that I can appreciate some of the elements of the Lantern mythos brought into play here. It's not my choice for a Superman fill in issue but I can respect that for Lantern fans....it might be a fun treat. I also enjoyed some of the early set-up up of the first issue with the missing children and I did appreciate some of Superman's dialogue particularly when he talked about not allowing fear to rule one's choices. That was often a huge theme in the later Seasons of Smallville and it was one of the things I appreciated most about the series in the later years. I like that kind of frank dialogue about the way we can allow fear to rule our lives because I think that's relatable to all people.

    However, I'm just gonna get real here: the way Lois was treated at the end of this issue really, really upset me. This is becoming a very bad pattern and I'm truly baffled as to why this keeps happening to her.

    First off, Lois says, "Rough day at the office." Ok....that's a strange choice of words for LOIS LANE to use because they literally work at the same office and have for 8 decades.

    Second, Lois then says she caught the "Breaking news story" that the children had been found. HUH???? Lois Lane does not watch "breaking news" at home from her kitchen! She leads investigations! Why wasn't she out there working this story? Why is she always shown AT HOME? Imagine how much better this story would have been if Clark and Lois were working this story TOGETHER and Lois continued to search/research while Superman dealt with the Parallax. This made no sense.

    Finally, look....I feel like I'm becoming a broken record about the pie here but it's gotten really frustrating for me. And before anyone on here tries to tell me that "hey some women like to bake pies"....please do not. I am a married woman with a really busy job. I am a mother. And, sometimes, I like to bake pies. Usually on holidays. I agree completely that women---even working women---are complex figures. We have to play many different roles and wear different hats. But that doesn't change who we are as women---it doesn't change that we are ambitious and career driven and can have our own individual adventures. Marriage and motherhood have not fundamentally changed who I am as a woman. It has made me wiser, it has taught me to love harder, it has brought me both pleasure and PAIN that I've never known but I am still ME. This is not complexity we are seeing here on the pages of this book. What we are seeing is a famous female character who has notoriously been portrayed as extremely good at her job for 8 decades, repeatedly reduced to standing on the sidelines fulfilling a solely domestic role for a long time now in these books. She deserves better. They NEED to do better by her. I am thrilled the marriage is back and I really so like the concept of Lois as a mother but they MUST do better.

    These stories would be SO MUCH better if they focused on Clark and Lois chasing mysteries together and following leads rather than continually allowing him to do the work himself while she sits at home. I'm tired of a female character this smart and this accomplished being used this way. It's not OK. And it makes me really, really sour about the direction of the Superman books.
    Couldn't agree more, especially since Jon is not at the babysitting age, so Lois can allow herself to work at Daily Planet as usual. Or make it better - let her take Jon to Daily Planet and work alongside with his mom to learn a thing or two.

  11. #11
    Invincible Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I didn't think it was that bad. I agree it would have been better to actually say she was on the story and that's how she knew instead of saying she just heard it on the news. Other than that though I didn't have an issue with her appearance. And to be fair I think Jurgens and Tomasi/Gleason use her well. On the other hand I think they're only a few creators who do. And since Superman is a mess right now in regards to scheduling, we're getting lots of fill-in creators right now. So you don't know what you're going to get right now.

    With all that said though I'm not onboard with the idea that everything Superman does she needs to be right by his side. I think she can oftentime be used a lot better, but at the same time I've always argued that within the pages of Action and Superman she is the main supporting character, not a co-star, and Superman should feature the most and get to do a lot of solo stuff. He's the draw. Every issue being Lois and Clark doing things together should be a theme specifically for a separate title if it could be supported. Or Lois's own solo if they wanted to go that route and have her to a lot on her own.

    Anywho, I really liked Champagne's voice for Superman. Very New 52-esque. I'm glad to see that witty sarcasm/humor is sticking around with some writers, and the mix of it with the usual compassion (seen perfectly with his compassion toward a fear monster) makes for a pretty perfect Superman. I would be down with seeing him do a lot more with the character. After reading this two-parter I know I'd feel a little bit better about the upcoming Deathstroke filler if he were writing it too.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 09-06-2017 at 11:22 AM.
    They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son. - Jor-El.

  12. #12
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    To be fair I think Jurgens and Tomasi/Gleason use her well. On the other hand I think they're one of a few if not the only creators who do. And since Superman is a mess right now in regards to scheduling, we're getting lots of fill-in creators right now. Hence there probably won't be much meaningful Lois still till Imperius Lex. Which because of said scheduling issues though, we're going to have to wait for.
    I do not agree with this nor do I agree with making excuses for them. Dan Jurgens, imo, has done pretty well by Lois. When he writes Lois, I can tell he cares about her and I can tell that he understands who she is, what kind of woman she is and what drives her. It hasn't been perfect but I can tell he is TRYING.

    Tomasi and Gleason have, imo, done one of the WORST jobs with her of any writing team in recent memory. Outside of a few rare moments (and they RARE) she has done NOTHING substantive in their entire tenure on the book. She wore the Hellbat suit for like two panels--big whoop. They are responsible for starting this sickening image of her as a homemaker sitting at home, serving pie like a 50's housewife. I'm sure they are nice men and I wish them no ill will but it's beyond clear to me that neither of them are super familiar with the complexity of an extremely successful working woman also trying to raise a child and it shows in their writing. But I can't blame them entirely because editorial should be all over that and they are letting them do it.

    I'm also not giving a pass to a fill in writer because, AGAIN, editorial should be right there to say, "hey maybe don't have Lois say she's going to serve pie" or "Lois and Clark actually work at the same office so this is a poor choice of words." Also, are you trying to tell me that a basic requirement of a fill in writer shouldn't be that he can write Lois HALF DECENT for the issue? Personally, I think a requirement for writing a Superman book----ANY Superman book---should be that you at least know that Lois Lane is a reporter. That seems like bare minimum knowledge.
    With all that said though I'm not onboard with the idea that everything Superman does she needs to be right by his side. I think she can oftentime be used a lot better, but at the same time I've always argued that within the pages of Action and Superman she is the main supporting character, not a co-star, and Superman should feature the most and get to do a lot of solo stuff. He's the draw. Every issue being Lois and Clark doing things together should be a theme specifically for a separate title if it could be supported. Or Lois's own solo if they wanted to go that route and have her to a lot on her own.
    I know you mean well with this but this very statement encapsulates the problem with the comics market.

    First off, even if she's just the "main supporting character" then she should be receiving more page-time than she's getting now. She should be getting twice the attention. Twice the care. And treated a heck of a lot better. Even if she is just the most important supporting character (which I'll argue she's more than that in a minute but even going by this bare minimum standard) this is unacceptable treatment of her. She deserves to be written as a complex, multi-dimensional woman. She deserves writers who care about her and who treat her well. Who allow her to do MORE than just sit at home serving freaking pie. Superman, as a character---as an icon---is not served well by his most important supporting character treated this poorly. This does not help the brand or the franchise. This does not GROW these books or its readership in any capacity.

    But, I'm going to take this further. You argue that she shouldn't be a co-star and that they shouldn't always be together. I don't actually think that's what ANYONE is saying here---I think you are misinterpreting our complaints---but OK. You claim "Superman is the draw."

    OH REALLY? Because last time I checked, Superman hasn't been a huge "draw" for comics readers in a really, really long time. In fact, the comics industry has come under fire repeatedly for pandering to the same male demographic over and over and over again. The industry, as a whole, is struggling specifically because they refuse to adapt and seek more diverse writers and treat women as an equal part of the marketplace. Superman is the main draw for YOU. And that is OK. But you know what? If Lois had a larger role and was actually treated right? She might be a draw for female readers who would actually buy these books and keep these brand relevant. She certainly has had a larger role under writers like Gail Simone, Greg Rucka and even Busiek and all of those stories were well received. And acting like her "place" is to only stand there and support him because "he is the draw" is short sighted to the problems the entire industry is dealing with right now. You should want Lois to be given a lot of page time. You should want her to be written as the strong woman she is because those are the kinds of commitments that keep books relevant and keep a more diverse readership. Men trying to put Lois "in her place" and deny her a place as a true partner does absolutely nothing to keep this brand relevant. It doesn't bring in new readers. It doesn't challenge anything. It doesn't help the brand.

    Trying to say, "Well it's Superman's book" really misses the point here. Of course it's his book. We all KNOW he's the star of Action and Superman. No one posting here is so stupid that they don't know that. But that doesn't mean it's OK to repeatedly reduce her like this and it also doesn't mean that she shouldn't have opportunities to be an actual co-star at some points and have more time in these books. It's not like these books are flying off the shelves. Frankly, increased time for Lois from writers who actually know what they are doing might drastically improve this book and open up a new readership. This discussion already took place over on the other thread about the LnC book. There are women out there who want to be part of this "club" and the door keeps getting shut in their face. And stuff like this is WHY.

    I really want to see new talent on these books. Younger talent. Female talent. People who aren't white. That would be fresh. I want to see younger men write these books who KNOW what it's like to live with a woman as ambitious as Lois. I want to see actual fresh takes on motherhood and marriage and super heroism. This is stale.
    Last edited by Nelliebly; 09-06-2017 at 11:33 AM.

  13. #13
    Invincible Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    At the end of the day, I hope you guys get what you want somewhere sometime.

    Me, I'm not ashamed to say nor do I think its wrong to say that first and foremost I'm into these titles for Superman. Not Lois, and not Jon. They support him. Doesn't mean I want them as stand-in dolls that never do anything, but Superman is what I'm here for on the reg. I'm unapologetic about that, and I shouldn't have to want something else or feel a different way.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 09-06-2017 at 11:38 AM.
    They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son. - Jor-El.

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    I didn't think it was that bad. I agree it would have been better to actually say she was on the story and that's how she knew instead of saying she just heard it on the news. Other than that though I didn't have an issue with her appearance.
    Ok. Well I'm a woman. Who is married. And I'm a mother. And I had an issue with it.

    It wouldn't have been "that bad" if this was the first offense. But it's not. This is a series of offenses. This is only the latest example in many examples of male writers stripping away the things that make Lois the person she is. She has been used almost exclusively in only domestic situations for the entire duration of this book. She has served food to men on a number of occasions. For God's sake, she had her freaking leg chopped off to fuel male drama and then, in the end, it was literally for nothing. I'm tired. It feels deliberate at this point.
    Last edited by Nelliebly; 09-06-2017 at 11:49 AM.

  15. #15
    Fantastic Member Lvenger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    At the end of the day, I hope you guys get what you want somewhere sometime.

    Me, I'm not ashamed to say nor do I think its wrong to say that first and foremost I'm into these titles for Superman. Not Lois, and not Jon. They support him. Doesn't mean I want them as stand-in dolls that never do anything, but Superman is what I'm here for on the reg. I'm unapologetic about that, and I shouldn't have to want or feel a different way. I respect the differing opinion, but mine isn't wrong. Nor is any other opinion.
    Nor should you be. I've been really liking Lois and Jon in the current Superman comics but at the end of the day, I read Superman comics for Superman. And I personally like the Rebirth era of Superman comics because they focused on telling good stories above all else. The forced inclusivity is something I'm strongly opposed to.

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