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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member Cody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh View Post
    Nah.

    Cyttorak is basically a Dormammu type, but with less direct feats, usually operating by proxy.
    I thought Dormammu was also on the same level as a Skyfather? Having fought equally with Odin?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    Physically grabbing an released Black Hole to stop it is like throwing a sandwich at Galactus to stop him.
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    I stand by my belief of Toriyama seeing a certain match online and going "Oh Yeah?!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Every time you say the name of some kind of nonsense martial art, an angel gets its wings, and Val Armorr learns the martial art, retroactively founds it, then super karates the angel unconscious with it.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cody View Post
    I thought Dormammu was also on the same level as a Skyfather? Having fought equally with Odin?
    They're basically all on the same level; with Cyttorak also having his own dimension (same as Dormammu and Agamotto) and sorcerers able to draw on his power without him being weakened.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beadle View Post
    He could probably always have punched Colossus to another state.
    Yes, there's even an hilarious sequence of Colossus talking about all the time he got his ass handed to him by Cain, but it won't happen this time!

    Then he realizes that his punches do nothing and thinks that maybe he was wrong and it's ass handing time, and Juggernaut goes "You know, every single time you somehow convince yourself that it'll work. We've been at this for decades man, time to get a clue.".

  4. #34
    Fantastic Member AnonymousODG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Morgan View Post
    Gonna disagree with that last part. Mongul's time with a yellow rings wasn't THAT long, but he was a pretty consistent top tier team wrecker for while it lasted. His lowest showing was probably needing an extended brawl to beat Akrillo with rings turned off, but Akrillo just doesn't have anything else establishing his baseline brick level.
    Arkillo lost to Guy Gardner in a no power ring duel recently. It's why Arkillo agreed to support the Yellow Lanterns joining with the Green Lanterns (before Soranik declared the truce was broken).

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    He ultimately "lost" everytime. Thats just bad booking in wrestling terms ;p

    Compared to say Sinestro, or Atrocitus or Larfleeze who all had notable "victories" in the same run, Mongul was kind of a relatively lame duck villain

    Also the character wasn't written as menacingly with the whole "daddy never said 'well done'" theme
    Atrocitus lost to a 50% charged Guy Gardner also.

    Basically, what I'm saying is Guy Gardner could beat up Mongul too.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    Eh, it's a hard call, really. The force field is only mentioned with certain writers. Basically, Cain is more or less about as invulnerable as you can reasonably get. This does not stop him from getting knocked around now and again, but he just gets right back up, mostly no worse for wear. Against Thor, the forcefield plus his invulnerability let him tank the Godblast (or godforce, whatever it was that day), and let him flat-out no-sell Mjolnir. With out the field, Thor could knock him around, and his punch ripped through the helmet, but he was still getting up.

    That said, he's had fights with other strong types before, without the forcefield mentioned at all. Nimrod didn't mention it when he knocked Juggy's hat off and sonic'd him into sleep, It's never come up against Hulky types, that I recall - and they have had to do things like space toss him to "win", since they can't hurt him at all.
    Just on a side note, I always felt the Godblast Juggy tanked has some question marks hanging over it, Thor was suffering from debilitating seizures and episodes of weakness (as a result of Loki leeching his power) during that same fight and I really don't see it as being a fully powered Thor.

  6. #36
    Pro Mutant Anarchist's Avatar
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    Well it wasn't his only fight with Thor that he won so....

  7. #37
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    The fact that people are questioning whether the Godblast Cain took is a full power blast or not, is still quite the compliment to Cain's durability.

    (It also kinda says how tough comic Kurse was/is, when Thor and BRB spent some time pouring energy from both Mjolnir and Stormbreaker into Katie Power with which she blasted Kurse full in the face, and Kurse's reaction was just "Hmmm... I remember now. It was all that dick Malekith's fault. Imma go and kill him instead. Seeya.")

  8. #38
    The Tentacle God Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cody View Post
    I thought Dormammu was also on the same level as a Skyfather? Having fought equally with Odin?
    Quote Originally Posted by k von doom View Post
    They're basically all on the same level; with Cyttorak also having his own dimension (same as Dormammu and Agamotto) and sorcerers able to draw on his power without him being weakened.
    Difference between Dormammu and Cyttorak is that Dormammu has ... Feats, and an overall presentation as Odin's peer (they play chess as Order and Chaos' representatives, and the match ends in a draw).

    Cyttorak has ... Nothing of the sort, and most of the 'feats' he has are by proxy. People using the Crimson Bands, Juggernaut being the Juggernaut. 8th Day Juggernaut being the best for 'by proxy' feats, still puts him below the likes of Odin.
    "Someone or thing has got to pay, it's given too much to take away. Oh I just want a legacy, Oh I just want it all to never fade! Don't we all arrive, at the same place where we began?" - Divisi

  9. #39
    Astonishing Member Cody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh View Post
    Difference between Dormammu and Cyttorak is that Dormammu has ... Feats, and an overall presentation as Odin's peer (they play chess as Order and Chaos' representatives, and the match ends in a draw).

    Cyttorak has ... Nothing of the sort, and most of the 'feats' he has are by proxy. People using the Crimson Bands, Juggernaut being the Juggernaut. 8th Day Juggernaut being the best for 'by proxy' feats, still puts him below the likes of Odin.
    Does it? If nothing has managed to hurt him when his power is working, then whose to say he doesn't have the same durability as Odin? You have a solid point, don't get me wrong, but he was only ranked with Thanos level durability on here because, that was just a decent place to put him at really. But he hasn't showed to have the same limits(Thanos was hurt by not only Odin, but by the likes of the Runner as well, which isn't a thing against Thanos by any means(the former manages to even be a feat for him), but there isn't really anything to suggest that Juggs couldn't tank hits from the likes of The Runner either),and he just so happens to get his powers from a Dormammu type being.

    So I don't see why it wouldn't be fair to assume that Juggernaut may actually have Dormammu/Skyfather level durability.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    Physically grabbing an released Black Hole to stop it is like throwing a sandwich at Galactus to stop him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Len Ikari145 View Post
    I stand by my belief of Toriyama seeing a certain match online and going "Oh Yeah?!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Every time you say the name of some kind of nonsense martial art, an angel gets its wings, and Val Armorr learns the martial art, retroactively founds it, then super karates the angel unconscious with it.

  10. #40
    The Tentacle God Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cody View Post
    Does it? If nothing has managed to hurt him when his power is working, then whose to say he doesn't have the same durability as Odin? You have a solid point, don't get me wrong, but he was only ranked with Thanos level durability on here because, that was just a decent place to put him at really. But he hasn't showed to have the same limits(Thanos was hurt by not only Odin, but by the likes of the Runner as well, which isn't a thing against Thanos by any means(the former manages to even be a feat for him), but there isn't really anything to suggest that Juggs couldn't tank hits from the likes of The Runner either),and he just so happens to get his powers from a Dormammu type being.

    So I don't see why it wouldn't be fair to assume that Juggernaut may actually have Dormammu/Skyfather level durability.
    Because it hits a point where it becomes a bit of a no-limits fallacy. He hasn't particularly shown anything of the sort that'd put him in the same bracket as Odin/Dormammu on his own merits, and neither has the Juggernaut. We generally put him up there with the likes of Thanos, because of the fact that he tends to bounce hits from Thor, and the like; but he hasn't shown much beyond that.

    What's more, take the Fear Itself fight where Kuurth, after being stripped of the Juggernaut enchantment, Kuurth was breaking Colossonaut's bones; and this is a Colossonaut who, after Magik ported them to the Crimson Cosmos, pointed out that Cain was destroying in the name of another God (Cul, the Serpent, who was depicted as a peer of Odin as well), had and Cyttorak going "Oh, really? Let's fix that."

    The only reason Piotr won that fight ? The "I can't be stopped when I'm moving" aspect of the enchantment. He was getting flat-out pulped otherwise. Plus you've got things like sufficient tech/magic (enchantments from Odin/Cul and Celestial tech, respectively) subverting the enchantment. So while I guess there is an argument for Cyttorak being a peer of Odin ... it sort of falls apart when you look at it closely.
    "Someone or thing has got to pay, it's given too much to take away. Oh I just want a legacy, Oh I just want it all to never fade! Don't we all arrive, at the same place where we began?" - Divisi

  11. #41
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    Because, while you're not exactly heading into No Limits Fallacy territory, you're certainly in the same postal district.

    The toughest thing someone has been shown to survive is the toughest thing they can survive until their feats show something higher. Same way the heaviest thing they have been shown to lift is the heaviest thing they can lift until they have feats to say otherwise.

    You can't say "They've not been shown to be harmed by the same things that have hurt Thanos so they can take more damage than Thanos", if the reason they've not been damaged by that level of stuff is that they haven't actually been shown to be exposed to that level of stuff at all.

    Dammit: Squid-blitzed.

  12. #42
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    Well Cyttorak managed to make 2/5 of the Phoenix Five look powerless in his own realm and he created a whole race of worshippers.
    It's not a ton, but he at least has been presented as a powerful figure.

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member Cody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh View Post
    Because it hits a point where it becomes a bit of a no-limits fallacy. He hasn't particularly shown anything of the sort that'd put him in the same bracket as Odin/Dormammu on his own merits, and neither has the Juggernaut. We generally put him up there with the likes of Thanos, because of the fact that he tends to bounce hits from Thor, and the like; but he hasn't shown much beyond that.

    What's more, take the Fear Itself fight where Kuurth, after being stripped of the Juggernaut enchantment, Kuurth was breaking Colossonaut's bones; and this is a Colossonaut who, after Magik ported them to the Crimson Cosmos, pointed out that Cain was destroying in the name of another God (Cul, the Serpent, who was depicted as a peer of Odin as well), had and Cyttorak going "Oh, really? Let's fix that."

    The only reason Piotr won that fight ? The "I can't be stopped when I'm moving" aspect of the enchantment. He was getting flat-out pulped otherwise. Plus you've got things like sufficient tech/magic (enchantments from Odin/Cul and Celestial tech, respectively) subverting the enchantment. So while I guess there is an argument for Cyttorak being a peer of Odin ... it sort of falls apart when you look at it closely.
    So wait, Colossus was just as tough as Juggernaut normally is right? So how strong would Kuurthnaut be for him to do what every single person who fought Juggernaut fail to do(hurt him)?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    Physically grabbing an released Black Hole to stop it is like throwing a sandwich at Galactus to stop him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Len Ikari145 View Post
    I stand by my belief of Toriyama seeing a certain match online and going "Oh Yeah?!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Every time you say the name of some kind of nonsense martial art, an angel gets its wings, and Val Armorr learns the martial art, retroactively founds it, then super karates the angel unconscious with it.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beadle View Post
    The fact that people are questioning whether the Godblast Cain took is a full power blast or not, is still quite the compliment to Cain's durability.

    (It also kinda says how tough comic Kurse was/is, when Thor and BRB spent some time pouring energy from both Mjolnir and Stormbreaker into Katie Power with which she blasted Kurse full in the face, and Kurse's reaction was just "Hmmm... I remember now. It was all that dick Malekith's fault. Imma go and kill him instead. Seeya.")
    Oh yeah, regardless of if it was a full powered godblast or not, it was still strong enough to push the Juggernaut back while not actually doing any damage him.

  15. #45
    The Tentacle God Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cody View Post
    So wait, Colossus was just as tough as Juggernaut normally is right? So how strong would Kuurthnaut be for him to do what every single person who fought Juggernaut fail to do(hurt him)?
    There's some implication that he's either full-power, or somewhat more powerful than typical Juggernaut.

    As far as how strong he was ? I mean he was connecting with a Mjolnir equivalent. I'd wager that the hammer's magic was subverting the Juggernaut enchantment. Which brings us back to the whole "not as powerful as a Skyfather", deal. Cul (The Serpent) was Odin's peer, and Kuurth was whoppin' the shit out of Colossonaut, only losing when Colossonaut got moving. Like, even Colossonaut admits this:

    This pic was TooDamnBig™

    The fight basically ends with Cul calling Kuurth back, because Colossanut was going to shove him back into the Serpent's runes (he hits roughly 600MPH by the way, which is pretty sweet as far as Juggernaut's movement speed goes), which would have effectively destroyed Kuurth, and Cul didn't want that yet. Then Colossonaut, unable to stop himself, runs off.
    Last edited by Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh; 09-09-2017 at 10:57 PM.
    "Someone or thing has got to pay, it's given too much to take away. Oh I just want a legacy, Oh I just want it all to never fade! Don't we all arrive, at the same place where we began?" - Divisi

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