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  1. #46
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    DC weathered the 90's pretty well. It might even be argued that it was their best decade.

  2. #47
    Mighty Member sakuyamons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bergman View Post
    DC weathered the 90's pretty well. It might even be argued that it was their best decade.
    It was imo.

  3. #48
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilan Preskovsky View Post
    Actually, it is true that they have put out some experimental comics during the New 52 - and are still doing so under the Young Animal line right now. Plus, there is that rumoured creator-driven line that's supposed to be on the horizon. The problem, I think, is that editorial control was so strong throughout the New 52 - and no boneheaded move in the 90s was as stupid as mandating that characters were not allowed to be married or in a remotely stable relationship - that the general stench of how badly conceived the overall direction of the DCU at the time was, permaeated even their most fringe books. That they're moving away from this and bringing back some of the DC Universe's rich history is why Rebirth is, at the very least, a step in the right direction.
    Yes, the no marriage thing was totally ridiculous. Especially as it prevented things like Kate/Maggie from getting married. I'm glad that they're moving away from that, and that Batman of all people may be getting married as well.

    But for every one of those decisions, post-Crisis had it's own set of baffling things as well. Like no other Kryptonians except Superman leading to Supergirl being an angel, a Russian General Zod, and whatever was going on with Krypto, or Barbara being Jim's niece, or Wonder Woman not being a JL founder, everything to do with Hawkman and Donna Troy, etc. So editorial control is something that rears its ugly head in almost every era, and I think people tend to overlook it in the 90s era because there was some great stuff mixed in with it and/or they are chiefly concerned with the characters introduced in that period that they overlook that not every character thrived.

    But still: DC>Marvel during this period, and it isn't even a contest.

  4. #49
    (Formerly ilash) Ilan Preskovsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Yes, the no marriage thing was totally ridiculous. Especially as it prevented things like Kate/Maggie from getting married. I'm glad that they're moving away from that, and that Batman of all people may be getting married as well.

    But for every one of those decisions, post-Crisis had it's own set of baffling things as well. Like no other Kryptonians except Superman leading to Supergirl being an angel, a Russian General Zod, and whatever was going on with Krypto, or Barbara being Jim's niece, or Wonder Woman not being a JL founder, everything to do with Hawkman and Donna Troy, etc. So editorial control is something that rears its ugly head in almost every era, and I think people tend to overlook it in the 90s era because there was some great stuff mixed in with it and/or they are chiefly concerned with the characters introduced in that period that they overlook that not every character thrived.

    But still: DC>Marvel during this period, and it isn't even a contest.
    Sure, some of the decisions made in the 90s by editorial were incredibly dumb but it felt like there was less editorial control in the sense that they mandated these changes and the creators were then left to their own devices to work around them. It's entirely possible that I'm just looking at things through nostalgic glasses here but it just strikes me that the editorial mandates of the 90s caused greater creativity than their modern counterparts and actually caused the DCU to move forward rather than stagnate.

    Interestingly, while I agree with you about most of those 90s mandates (I forgot that Barbara was Gordon's niece for years for no apparent reason) but I'm still with them on Superman. I'm very much enjoying the Supergirl TV show but I do believe that Superman is more interesting and more thematically on message when he is the sole survivor of Krypton. And that's actually a great example of what I'm talking about. With this mandate in place, writers had to be creative with creating a new Super family and the result was this great "adoptive family" that included the likes of Kon-El, Steel and Linda Danvers. It did start to fall apart later, I agree, with that Zod thing and Krypto but that was, as I recall, mostly a precursor to a more Silver Age take on the Superman family, which is now back in play.
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    Agent Z,

    The title of this thread is Why are the 90s so Disliked? not How dare you dislike the 90s!

    While I admit there were glimmers of hope in 90s comics here and there, I found them few and far between. I felt the Grimdark era to be miserable.

    Agent Z, your opinion does not cancel my opinion or vice versa.

    In future, please feel free to address the topic...and not my posts.
    I have addressed the main topic. I've also debated your posts as you've debated the OP. As others have.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Yes, the no marriage thing was totally ridiculous. Especially as it prevented things like Kate/Maggie from getting married. I'm glad that they're moving away from that, and that Batman of all people may be getting married as well.

    But for every one of those decisions, post-Crisis had it's own set of baffling things as well. Like no other Kryptonians except Superman leading to Supergirl being an angel, a Russian General Zod, and whatever was going on with Krypto, or Barbara being Jim's niece, or Wonder Woman not being a JL founder, everything to do with Hawkman and Donna Troy, etc. So editorial control is something that rears its ugly head in almost every era, and I think people tend to overlook it in the 90s era because there was some great stuff mixed in with it and/or they are chiefly concerned with the characters introduced in that period that they overlook that not every character thrived.

    But still: DC>Marvel during this period, and it isn't even a contest.
    Donna and Hawkman could have been fixed just by editors being smarter and it isn't like the New 52 learned from these mistakes. Given how often the founders of the League changes, I can't bring myself to be bothered by Diana's exclusion and it beats her being the Justice Society's secretary or whatever nonsense like that.

    DC creates non legacy characters all the time. They either don't catch or if they do get buried faster than you can say, "up, up and away" because the powers that be would rather focus on their Silver Age favourites

  7. #52
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    Count me with the guys who think there's a lot less to hate about DC in the 90's than at Marvel; of all the main characters from Justice League, only Wonder Woman seemed to get hit with an abominable case of the Liefeld syndrome. The other 90's changes tended to have master writers at the helm making it work, unlike with Marvek where sometimes artists would dictate the directions; Aquaman had PAD, for instance, even if some die hards want to say his redesign didn't work. Even the publicity stunt events that DC went through tended to be stronger and more fruitful: Death of Superman spawned Superboy and Steel, while Knightfall introduced Bane, Azrael, and restructured the Batbooks into the Batfamily.
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  8. #53
    Mighty Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I have addressed the main topic. I've also debated your posts as you've debated the OP. As others have.
    I started the thread and yes I get people who hate the 90's but I think the 00's and now have equally as many issues and don't get the amount of hate the 90's get it seems unfair IMO especially given how much good at DC came out of the 90's. So I was looking for varying opinions on it including those who feel it was justified.

  9. #54
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallyWestFlash View Post
    Batman had knightfall obviously which is Batman's most iconic story.
    I have a lot of love for Knightfall, but it's not close to Batman's most iconic story. It needs to get in line behind The Dark Knight Returns, Year One, Hush (sadly), The Killing Joke, The Long Halloween, Dark Victory and probably some others.

  10. #55
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z
    So Cass Cain's Batgirl was The Killing Joke? Tim Drake's Robin was the Killing Joke? What about Static? The Ray? Young Justice? Superboy? Justice League International? Captain Atom?
    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    They were dark and grim. The tone of most books was hopelessness...even the humor books were depressing sometime.
    I can't even begin to see how you're calling these comics dark and grim. Of course people get killed from time to time - that's the nature of this type of story, but to call them dark and grim is very selective.

  11. #56
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Donna and Hawkman could have been fixed just by editors being smarter and it isn't like the New 52 learned from these mistakes. Given how often the founders of the League changes, I can't bring myself to be bothered by Diana's exclusion and it beats her being the Justice Society's secretary or whatever nonsense like that.

    DC creates non legacy characters all the time. They either don't catch or if they do get buried faster than you can say, "up, up and away" because the powers that be would rather focus on their Silver Age favourites
    They wouldn't need to be fixed had post crisis not been made a thing on the first place. The New 52 didn't help, but it didn't create the problem

    New characters not taking off is down to the fans not being interested enough to give them a chance and stick with what they know. Unless you think DC creates them just to fail, which doesn't make any business sense. If Dark Matter doesn't work, it will be because fans atent buying enough of it for the characters to be a success.

  12. #57
    Fantastic Member Comicfan111's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    DC's 1990s weren't like Image's or Marvel's. For the most part, I think DC succeeded in keeping its character intact during that dubious decade and even provided its share of gems. I know it's a favorite era of many people, though it isn't mine (too many Silver/Bronze Age heroes dead/altered almost beyond recognition), and anything that had the whiff of Pre-COIE DC seemed strictly verboten for most of the 90s.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    I agree completely.
    Marvel: All-New Guardians of the Galaxy, All-New Wolverine, Amazing Spider-Man, Darth Vader, Star Wars, Unbelievable Gwenpool.

    DC: Aquaman, Batman, Detective Comics, Flash, Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps, Red Hood and the Outlaws, Trinity.

    "Iron Man, Iron Man, Does whatever an iron can; presses pants really fine, keeps those pleats right in line. Hey there, there goes the Iron Man!"

  13. #58
    Spectacular Member Hatut Zeraze's Avatar
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    I never complain about DC in the 1990s. There were so many outrageously bad comics being put out by Marvel and Image in those days, DC was practically an oasis by my reckoning. I'm with Buried Alien on this one.

  14. #59
    Incredible Member TheCape's Avatar
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    DC from the 90s was pretty solid for the most part, sure the 93 to 96 period has his problems, but things got better after it and i would argue that things continued to be great until 2003, the whole 2003 to 2015 period has more misses that hits in my opinion.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    They wouldn't need to be fixed had post crisis not been made a thing on the first place. The New 52 didn't help, but it didn't create the problem

    New characters not taking off is down to the fans not being interested enough to give them a chance and stick with what they know. Unless you think DC creates them just to fail, which doesn't make any business sense. If Dark Matter doesn't work, it will be because fans atent buying enough of it for the characters to be a success.
    True. But even then it kind of made the problem worse.

    I've seen DC bury characters that made them money, legacy or no. We've moved past the point of thinking these guys have good business sense

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