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  1. #31
    Ultimate Member Assam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agentofthebat View Post
    Tec and Nightwing are the only things keeping me going with comics now.
    I'd personally recommend New Super-Man, Aquaman and Green Lanterns. The latter two are excellent and the former is my favorite book from DC this decade.
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  2. #32
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Oh how convenient that Steph blows off Batman before he can reveal that Tim's still alive .

    I guess the Victim Syndicate is going to out the fact that Batman and co. are working with Clayface, a known criminal and killer, which will probably push Basil over the edge. Either that or their plans just heavily revolve around Clayface.

    I wonder if Leslie was the one who told Batman about Lonnie's "utopia..."

  3. #33
    Mighty Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Tec and Nightwing are the only things keeping me going with comics now.
    Mine is mostly Action Comics, Super Sons, Deathstroke and (in spite of his numerous problems) Titans.

  4. #34
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    Overall, I still like it, though that's mostly on the characterization of the characters and the Clayface subplot. The Anarchy stuff was too rushed, though still readable. I understand Assam's point about wanting Anarchy to be a hero and being frustrated at him ending up in Arkham. The latter's the more nonsensical element: nothing about Anarchy suggests he would go to Arkham, since he's traditionally still a minor and very much rational, with probably more misdemeanors than felonies, even in regard to the aid he gave the First Victim, since the chronology implied is vague.

    I do, however, feel fine about making Lonnie antagonistic. Yeah, he was initially created as a hero, but honestly, a genuine anarchist should have serious issues with cooperating with Batman, and he honestly should, on some level, desire to incapaciatte Batman's current MO. Again, his connection to the First Victim (building his/her suit) isn't a violent action, and may not even be a criminal act in and of itself. It honestly would have worked better to have Bruce reveal his VS connections to Steph, and then have Steph chase him out of the underground without arresting him, since she rightly regards the VS as dangerous to everyone, even if they ostensibly try to avoid much lethal action. Then have Lonnie's message and phone delivered while he's still free, and with an implication that he supports the VS cause but not necessarily their tactics.

    Regardless of the execution, I do like this Lonnie's characterization. He's been tuned into a more clear Foil for Tim, probably on the opposite side of the comparison from the General. All three have varying amounts of control freak tendencies, an extreme intelligence, and ambition. But Lonnie is clearly a true idealist and revolutionary who sees Batman as an opponent even while still belonging to roughly the same side of the moral alignment, Armstrong is clearly a self-serving oppurtunist who is a fan of Batman but is nevertheless evil, with Tim being the guy in the middle: he knows Bruce personally, warts and all, and is seeking a pragmatic evolution to Batman's MO and goals.

    Like, Tim and Lonnie should be quite capable of allying occasionally, maybe even becoming friends, because they are both intrinsically altruistic, but unlikely to form a permanent alliance because they have different philosophies and goals.
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  5. #35
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Honestly, I remember us talking about this when Catwoman debuted in King's run locked up in Arkham, but the exact line between what lands you in Arkham and what gets you locked up in Blackgate (which is a more normal prison) is extremely loose these days.

    I guess the authorities just felt Lonnie was dangerous enough to warrant getting sent to Arkham, unless he really did manipulate the system to get closer to the First Victim.

  6. #36
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I guess the authorities just felt Lonnie was dangerous enough to warrant getting sent to Arkham, unless he really did manipulate the system to get closer to the First Victim.
    I don't know why my "Lonnie wants to be in Arkham to plot with the First Victim" theory is so far fetched? I mean...Lonnie has guards do his bidding as soon as he's locked up. That makes it seem like it's all part of his plan.
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  7. #37
    Mighty Member Nick Miller's Avatar
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    More Victim syndicate stuff? Ugh

    Not A FAN

  8. #38
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Miller View Post
    More Victim syndicate stuff? Ugh

    Not A FAN
    But why? I thought that arc was pretty good.
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  9. #39
    Fantastic Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    This stinks. I was really enjoying this version of Clayface and being a member of the team. When the team first started it out, it was amazing! A great group of characters. Then Tim is snatched away, Steph leaves and now it looks like Clayface will be gone. This really stinks.
    Maybe they're finally making room for Bette? (snark, never.gonna.happen).

    At any rate, though I like Detective and am getting used to these characters, myself, I don't feel Clayface fits here, but I'm not sure he would fit in anywhere. That's just me. Not the worst part of Detective (that would be the ignoring of Batwoman's cousin and former partner, Flameb - - -, Hawkf . . . umm, Bette)

  10. #40
    Ultimate Member Assam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    But why? I thought that arc was pretty good.
    While I wouldn't call it the best arc, I would call it the one with the fewest flaws. On an objective level, it's only real problem was wonky pacing. (On a subjective level, HARPER being the one Steph talks to didn't do her character any favors for me)

    Compare that to the others: RotB was mostly well told, but had some ludicrous parts, and was a TERRIBLE way to start the series, Monster Men was just flat out badly written, Batwoman Beyond was dry and boring, LoS had a clusterf**k of a plot (Someone should really ask Tynion how HE thinks ninjas with swords took out Clayface), Wrath of Spoiler, although enjoyable, wasn't too interesting, Intelligence could have been the best arc by far, but Zatanna and the pacing hold it back, the pacing worse here than in VS, because at least in VS, there was narrative cohesion for everything (I actually have thought of a way Intelligence could have worked, WHILE keeping Zatanna and sticking to five issues) , and the B-plot didn't overwhelm and strangle the A-plot, and Utopia was half really, really good, and half crap.
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  11. #41
    Ultimate Member Assam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    Maybe they're finally making room for Bette? (snark, never.gonna.happen).

    At any rate, though I like Detective and am getting used to these characters, myself, I don't feel Clayface fits here, but I'm not sure he would fit in anywhere. That's just me. Not the worst part of Detective (that would be the ignoring of Batwoman's cousin and former partner, Flameb - - -, Hawkf . . . umm, Bette)
    Tynion was on Batwoman for 6 issues. If he was interested in using Bette, I think he would have brought her back there.

    Also, even if sadly Basil leaves, there still isn't "room". 'Tec can not support more than a six person team, Tim and Steph will be re-joining eventually, and even if more people leave, Harper has been appearing in the book every few months, and would likely be used as a member before Bette.
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  12. #42
    Astonishing Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Tynion was on Batwoman for 6 issues. If he was interested in using Bette, I think he would have brought her back there.
    He's said she'd be appearing in that, though. Maybe something changed in the meantime, but the intent was definitely there.
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  13. #43
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    Maybe they're finally making room for Bette? (snark, never.gonna.happen).

    At any rate, though I like Detective and am getting used to these characters, myself, I don't feel Clayface fits here, but I'm not sure he would fit in anywhere. That's just me. Not the worst part of Detective (that would be the ignoring of Batwoman's cousin and former partner, Flameb - - -, Hawkf . . . umm, Bette)
    Haha, I wish. Though I really wish Bette would show up in Batwoman, since I think there's more room over there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    While I wouldn't call it the best arc, I would call it the one with the fewest flaws. On an objective level, it's only real problem was wonky pacing. (On a subjective level, HARPER being the one Steph talks to didn't do her character any favors for me)

    Compare that to the others: RotB was mostly well told, but had some ludicrous parts, and was a TERRIBLE way to start the series, Monster Men was just flat out badly written, Batwoman Beyond was dry and boring, LoS had a clusterf**k of a plot (Someone should really ask Tynion how HE thinks ninjas with swords took out Clayface), Wrath of Spoiler, although enjoyable, wasn't too interesting, Intelligence could have been the best arc by far, but Zatanna and the pacing hold it back, the pacing worse here than in VS, because at least in VS, there was narrative cohesion for everything (I actually have thought of a way Intelligence could have worked, WHILE keeping Zatanna and sticking to five issues) , and the B-plot didn't overwhelm and strangle the A-plot, and Utopia was half really, really good, and half crap.
    I'd say that the artistic switches weren't the best on Victim Syndicate, though other than the fill-in middle issue (which did have the plus of introducing Carmen Carnero), it was just awkwardly schedulled, and not feeling rushed like a lot of League of Shadows.

    However, I really liked pretty much all of the issues of Tec, except for Night of the Monster Men - I think I'm the only person who actually enjoyed League of Shadows all the way through. And Wrath of Spoiler starred my fave being awesome, so I thought it was great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Tynion was on Batwoman for 6 issues. If he was interested in using Bette, I think he would have brought her back there.

    Also, even if sadly Basil leaves, there still isn't "room". 'Tec can not support more than a six person team, Tim and Steph will be re-joining eventually, and even if more people leave, Harper has been appearing in the book every few months, and would likely be used as a member before Bette.
    Much as I hate to rag on my current favorite Bat-writer at DC, I am not a fan of Batwoman's first arc, and I do think that Bette's absence is a big part of that.

    As for "room" on the team - I think a Birds of Prey around issue 100 approach of a rotating roster depending on the mission is very viable.
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  14. #44
    Ultimate Member Assam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post

    I think I'm the only person who actually enjoyed League of Shadows all the way through.
    Weird moments and plotting issues aside, I DID really, really like 950-955, because of how right everything with Cass's arc was, #950 being the best issue of 'Tec we've gotten. But #956 really failed to stick the landing for me. It's still my personal favorite arc for obvious reasons, but objectively, I can acknowledge that it's the weakest of the four major arcs. (Though I'd still say all four major arcs are at least "Good" and better than Batwoman Begins, Wrath of Spoiler , and especially Utopia and Monster Men)

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Much as I hate to rag on my current favorite Bat-writer at DC, I am not a fan of Batwoman's first arc, and I do think that Bette's absence is a big part of that.
    I gave the first issue of Batwoman a shot, and that was more than enough for me. Elegy remains the only time I feel Kate has worked as a solo character.

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    As for "room" on the team - I think a Birds of Prey around issue 100 approach of a rotating roster depending on the mission is very viable..
    Even there though, there was still a core group. Babs, Charlie, Helena and Zinda were basically always around. And you knowthat they'd just have Bruce and Kate be the constants. And considering Tynion's arcs are 5-7 issues long? Yeah, I think just having a second team would make a lot more sense.
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  15. #45
    Astonishing Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    I gave the first issue of Batwoman a shot, and that was more than enough for me. Elegy remains the only time I feel Kate has worked as a solo character.
    Even with 40 or 50-odd other issues that demonstrate the contrary?
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