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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanT View Post
    I've never understood all the hate for the Picoult "gas pumping" scene. I didn't learnt to drive until I was 45 and I had to be shown how to do it, a couple of times. It's not like it's intuitive. Did everyone else just figure it out on their own? I doubt it.

    I really hated the Byrne run. I hated how ineffectual Diana was. The only time she had true "victories" was when she allowed herself be tortured by LeFay and Cheetah. Every other time it was somebody else. Did anyone notice during the Neron scenes, Diana spends the ENTIRE TIME tied up and does nothing useful? It's Cassie and Artemis who figure out how to defeat him, and he retaliates by killing Diana. She never laid a hand on him (or Darkseid, for that matter, even after he slaughtered hundreds of Amazons, all for nothing.)

    Then wow, he powers her up into a goddess! (after having her brains pulled out her head-- there was a lot of torture porn going on in these issues, too.) He powers her up and she-- saves a guy from a tiger. Wow. Thrilling.

    I hated the Jimenez run. I hated how he made it into a soap opera. Julia slapping Diana, Diana shrieking at Trevor Barnes, Diana suddenly jealous of her mother. It wasn't drama, it was drama queen. I hated how the stories were literally about nothing. #170 was just a laundry list with no real detail, no real theme at its core beyond "she has contradictions." #172 was a convoluted explanation of "Our Worlds at War," when it should have focused on Hippolyte. His conflicts were so easily resolved. Oh my God, Circe has turned all the males into animals! Gee, too bad she forgot to get rid of Zatanna, who immediately made a bunch of moly. Oh my God, Villainy Incorporated has taken over Atlantis and the have 10 years to plot against Wonder Woman! But they have no plan, and he just punches them out.

    I hated how Diana shrieked at Donna, "you're so obtuse!" during the Clayface 2-parter.

    I hated Diana in New Frontier. I liked the book, but not Diana. I hate how she's gloating at Superman in the beginning, but how in her storyline she's brought to heel and eventually grateful and fawning over Superman. I mean, she's literally told to go home by Richard Nixon, and she's so wounded, she does! What? Diana's mission is from the gods, not the US government. And just the fact that the Civil War is going on, and Diana would just step aside while blacks are being lynched in the South, is unconscionable. Also, that she has no of her own supporting cast-- despite Steve being a huge part of her Silver Age history-- simply so she could be paired with Superman, is awful.

    Finch. No skill as a writer, no ideas. The worst.
    The gas pumping scene is hated because it's one of several instances of DC insisting Diana isn't relatable just because she isn't from the US or doesn't have a secret I.D or whatever such nonsense that was used after Infinite Crisis. Basically, despite having lived outside of Themyscira for years, she never bothered to learn this rather simple task.

    Jiminez' run was less of a soap opera than Azzarello's. Conflict does not equal soap opera and that issue did more to explore Diana's character in one issue than most other runs

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I'm for, and prefer, a characterization of Diana that leans on the slightly aloof side because the stark differences between her home and "Man's World", but this is greatly pushing it. These things are day one problems learned by day two, generally. I do though like it if there are still some fundamental cultural and philosophical gaps that persist even into the present day.

    I don't know how popular an idea even that is though.
    I'm beginning to think I might hate you as a WW writer but you got me curious - where did you get this preference for an "aloof" Diana?

    Quote Originally Posted by FishyZombie View Post
    You'd be surprised how many people I know from New Jersey don't know how to gas up their own cars (state policy here, makes it so a gas station worker needs to do it, idk why, create jobs or something).
    First time I got gas in Jersey, I was like "just get out of my way, I can do it myself." Did not go over well.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanT View Post
    I've never understood all the hate for the Picoult "gas pumping" scene. I didn't learnt to drive until I was 45 and I had to be shown how to do it, a couple of times. It's not like it's intuitive. Did everyone else just figure it out on their own? I doubt it.
    If I had to guess, you're either from a big city (NYC?) or somewhere quite remote. Otherwise, what were you doing for 30 years?

    While I don't "hate" that scene, I agree with SacredKnight above, it would work much better with a Diana new to our world. Doesn't work as well when she's already worked at Taco Whiz many years earlier. And, in general, I tend to not care for scenes that make her look not too bright. Had there been other scenes to showcase her intelligence, it may of worked as a counter-balance. But the tie-in to Amazons Attack made the whole thing a mess.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    I'm a bit confused (not meant sarcastically)

    The gods created the Azzarelloverse in order to fool Diana into believing she was home in order to prevent her from trying to get home.

    Her true family and background were shown in the issues that Nicola Scott drew versus the revealing of the lies in Liam's books.

    The sons of Ares wanted to free their father and had to get to Themyscira to do it, so they tried to get Diana to go home, then they enlisted mortal aid in order to get to Themyscira and Ares.

    I'm honestly confused over what part of that plot wasn't finished. I'm not saying whether you (or I) liked the plot or the way it ended, but it seemed pretty finished to me.
    It was never explained in a proper fashion why all of that nonsense was ever necessary. It's even in the Year One books that Diana knew and accepted she could never return home after she left with Steve, if they had just left it at that none of this would never have been a problem. Yes, Diana could have attempted to return home, but no she would just never have succeeded... the Gods made an impenetrable barrier with this plan about how to detain Ares, and then made a small door with a bad lock for some reason.

    It also never made sense why a pair of gods needed aid in finding Themyscira since the entire menagerie appeared to be able to come and go as they pleased, so it's location cant have been that big of a mystery to the inhabitants of Olympus.

    Also as I mentioned, it was never explained if all of this was set up just so Diana could have a happy place she felt at home in:
    why could people find this place centuries before it's 'creator' was even born? and why was it so vastly different from what it was supposed to imitate? and whats the damn point of giving Diana the Lasso of Truth if you can just pull the wool over her eyes like this, and when will everyone else start doing it?

    Note: I guess you can consider it finished on the basis that somekind of explanation was offered... I just don't consider it to be because there are just far too many holes in it that wasn't addressed. It just reeked of a being a convoluted excuse to get rid of something Rucka didn't like.

  4. #64
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    Also this...



    Wonder Woman will brutally murder her brother and sister, but her crush on Batman will free her from all evil?

    Batfan-wank at its finest LOL
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Also this...



    Wonder Woman will brutally murder her brother and sister, but her crush on Batman will free her from all evil?

    Batfan-wank at its finest LOL
    Rucka
    Rucka
    Whatcha gonna do when he spoils it for you?

  6. #66
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    It was never explained in a proper fashion why all of that nonsense was ever necessary. It's even in the Year One books that Diana knew and accepted she could never return home after she left with Steve, if they had just left it at that none of this would never have been a problem. Yes, Diana could have attempted to return home, but no she would just never have succeeded... the Gods made an impenetrable barrier with this plan about how to detain Ares, and then made a small door with a bad lock for some reason.

    It also never made sense why a pair of gods needed aid in finding Themyscira since the entire menagerie appeared to be able to come and go as they pleased, so it's location cant have been that big of a mystery to the inhabitants of Olympus.

    Also as I mentioned, it was never explained if all of this was set up just so Diana could have a happy place she felt at home in:
    why could people find this place centuries before it's 'creator' was even born? and why was it so vastly different from what it was supposed to imitate? and whats the damn point of giving Diana the Lasso of Truth if you can just pull the wool over her eyes like this, and when will everyone else start doing it?

    Note: I guess you can consider it finished on the basis that somekind of explanation was offered... I just don't consider it to be because there are just far too many holes in it that wasn't addressed. It just reeked of a being a convoluted excuse to get rid of something Rucka didn't like.
    Except, to me at least, it was made very clear.

    Diana is powerful, stubborn and resourceful. The gods knew that, sooner or later, she would try to go home but, more to the point, they feared she might be able to succeed despite their efforts.

    This was actually my favorite part of the arc - that the gods knew Diana was so smart and so skilled and so driven by her love for her mother and her sisters that somehow, she would find a way back.

    So they sought to put another layer on it - hoping that if she *thought* she was home, she would stop trying to really get home.

    Again, I'm not saying you should like the story, or that you should like Rucka's arc or that you would find the answers satisfying, just that there were answers that were supplied.

    There were things I liked and things I didn't like about Rucka's story, but, unlike Azzarello's, I felt that he at least attempted to answer all of the major questions. How/why did she leave home, how/why did she get powers, how/why did she get her costume and the name 'Wonder Woman,' how/why she ended up living where she did, etc. Was it perfect? Of course not - so few writers are. Was I happy with all of the answers? Not all, but most of them, but at least I felt he had answered most if not all of the key questions I had.

  7. #67
    Ultimate Member Assam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Also this...



    Wonder Woman will brutally murder her brother and sister, but her crush on Batman will free her from all evil?

    Batfan-wank at its finest LOL
    UGH. I didn't read this story, but that actually happened?

    Just another reason why the New Bat-Wonder ship is the best.

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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Rucka
    Rucka
    Whatcha gonna do when he spoils it for you?
    Wasn't it not his idea at all?
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
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  9. #69
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    Okay, here's my list... There are things I "disliked" about it, but I tried to keep it to the ones I found just appalling.

    - Ditching the rogues that Marston had set up in favor for more bizarre villains like Angle Man, Mouse Man, and Crimson Centipede by Kanigher. Because of this, it set a standard for less consistency of Wonder Woman's rogues gallery. This was carried on even after Kanigher, with more modern writers creating brand new foils while completely ignoring the past ones already established in the Wonder Woman mythos.

    - The aging of Steve Trevor. I get it, Perez wanted to make him a father figure for Diana rather than a romantic interest. It is pretty hokey that Diana falls in love with the first man she meets, but it's also very fairy tale-ish and whimsical. And after all, the movie proved just how great the pairing can work.

    - Wonder Woman's depiction in the New 52. I had a lot of issues with Azzarello's run on the book, but beyond the crotch-grab and a few other "WTF Moments," his Diana was pretty good. However, DC in general decided to go a completely different route with the themes of the character, making her more of a bloodthirsty warrior who just wants to cut things up. This was one of the worst directions to go with the character. She's a warrior, yes, but she's so much more than that.

    - Etta Candy. Marston did such an amazing job creating a character that was unique then, and is still unique to this day. But subsequent writers just didn't get the zany character and tried to "ground" her by making her unconfident and envious.

    - Anytime Diana becomes romantically involved with Batman or Superman. Just because she's the only female member of the team doesn't mean she needs to get with one of the many male members. The Batman kiss during Blackest Night was abhorrent, and the Superman/Wonder Woman series was just awful.

  10. #70
    Invincible Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    How could I forget Blackest Night Wonder Woman? That's easily a top three terrible moment.

    Only saving grace was that mini got then up-and-coming Nicola Scott some spotlight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Wasn't it not his idea at all?
    Never really heard that assertion. Always seemed more to me this was his way of doing something he planned but didn't get to do in his original truncated run thanks to IC. He went on record many years ago after his run was abruptly ended confirming he had planned to put WW in a romantic relationship with an established hero outside her mythos. He refused to name who it was, but all indications at the time were that it was Batman. That this then happened the first chance he got to write WW again after that pretty much sealed it for me.

    This is why I thank god for Steve Trevor's return on another level. Had Steve not been returned to WW's mythos in his classic form and available as her love interest again, I shudder to think what he would have done in Rebirth. Granted unfortunately for Steve he didn't do a good job with him either. Here's hoping Robinson fares better.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 09-12-2017 at 10:53 AM.
    They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son. - Jor-El.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanT View Post
    I hated the Jimenez run. I hated how he made it into a soap opera. Julia slapping Diana, Diana shrieking at Trevor Barnes, Diana suddenly jealous of her mother. It wasn't drama, it was drama queen. I hated how the stories were literally about nothing. #170 was just a laundry list with no real detail, no real theme at its core beyond "she has contradictions." #172 was a convoluted explanation of "Our Worlds at War," when it should have focused on Hippolyte. His conflicts were so easily resolved. Oh my God, Circe has turned all the males into animals! Gee, too bad she forgot to get rid of Zatanna, who immediately made a bunch of moly. Oh my God, Villainy Incorporated has taken over Atlantis and the have 10 years to plot against Wonder Woman! But they have no plan, and he just punches them out.
    I loved the Jimenz run for the same reasons you hated it. Up until that point Diana's only character flaw was her propensity to abandon her friends. It wasn't intentional and there was no real negligence on her part, it was just that things tended to happen to them while she was busy somewhere else. You could see how characters in the story could fault her for that, but we the readers didn't, so it wasn't a real flaw.

    This changed with Jimenez who showed Diana being openly jealous of Hippolyta and resentful of Hippolyta taking up her mantle, that was supposed to be a penance for past misdeeds, but quickly became something Hippolyta learned to enjoy. It was a no win situation, she and her mother both had good points. How could Diana be angry at Hippolyta for doing the exact same thing she did? How could Hippolyta abandon her responsibilities as Queen and flounce around Man's World in newly commissioned bodices, saving lives and having adventures with her new boyfriend Wildcat, while Themyscira suffered on the brink of civil war? Was she not allowed a personal life outside the boundaries set up for her? Historically Diana would have preached that she did, except when it came to her own mother she didn't feel that way.

    There was no easy solution and then Hippolyta died before the problem was truly resolved. When Julia finally held Diana's feet to the fire and displayed the perfectly human reaction of a mother with a child in peril and called Diana out on her inability to protect Vanessa, she was justified. So was Trevor Barne's sister justified in taking issue with Diana for getting her brother killed. He'd still be alive if he had never met Diana and become involved her world. This was real stuff, soap opera trappings aside.

    Jimenez offered characters with real emotions, they just weren't the ones we were used to seeing in the Wonder Woman title. That's what made it great.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Wasn't it not his idea at all?
    Looking back at his original run, including Hiketeia, I think Rucka had a plan to rstablish an ongoing relationship between the two characters. Probably a doomed romance, but something.

    The problem with THIS story is that it is built on the idea that an unrequited attraction to Batman is a stronger motivator than Diana's relationship with her mother and sister. In short, she loves Batman more than either.

    I mean come on. That might be good for Batman to have yet another woman weak in the nethers for him, but does little to nothing to help Wonder Woman.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Looking back at his original run, including Hiketeia, I think Rucka had a plan to rstablish an ongoing relationship between the two characters. Probably a doomed romance, but something.

    The problem with THIS story is that it is built on the idea that an unrequited attraction to Batman is a stronger motivator than Diana's relationship with her mother and sister. In short, she loves Batman more than either.

    I mean come on. That might be good for Batman to have yet another woman weak in the nethers for him, but does little to nothing to help Wonder Woman.
    Do you still have this framed?

    You and I have always read this very differently. For starters, did Rucka create "Blackest Night"? And how did WW become a Black Lantern in the first place?

  14. #74
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    It also never made sense why a pair of gods needed aid in finding Themyscira since the entire menagerie appeared to be able to come and go as they pleased, so it's location cant have been that big of a mystery to the inhabitants of Olympus.
    It needs no explanation, because the plot speaks for itself. Deimos and Phobos are not Olympians. The patrons are the ones who created the magical barrier specifically to keep them (and others like them who wanted to free Ares) out. The twins are relatively minor Gods, who just follow daddy around and pick at his scraps, they don't have enough mojo to go against the combined might of their mother, Athena, Hera, Artemis, Hermes, Hephaestus, Demeter and Apollo, and maybe even Zeus himself. Circe treated them seriously, but not enough that she didn't hesitate to turn them into dogs, whereas she didn't want to against a full blown Olympian like Ares.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    why could people find this place centuries before it's 'creator' was even born? and why was it so vastly different from what it was supposed to imitate? and whats the damn point of giving Diana the Lasso of Truth if you can just pull the wool over her eyes like this, and when will everyone else start doing it?
    In the context of this run, who exactly is finding the island before Steve crashes on it?
    The Gods giving Diana the lasso of truth doesn't mean they want her to be able to see through their own machinations. They're dicks like that, Diana herself says they have her love but not her trust. And it didn't even work, because she saw through it anyway, so clearly no matter how long it takes, she sees through illusions even the Olympians create.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    And how did WW become a Black Lantern in the first place?
    I can't answer all the questions, but Diana became a Black Lantern because she'd died, right? Those who'd previously died became Black Lanterns, and she died in Byrne's run.

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