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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I get what you're saying Awonder, I just never took the narration as presenting it that way. In the art and the writing the suggestion was he was manifesting purely as a symbol of love for him, the individual man, breaking hold of the black ring and bringing the violet ring to her. Thus, the contradiction lies in the fact that this is not what the main series says happened. It says its her love of the world. The way you described it would have actually worked well enough, but as Rucka wrote it, I've just never read it that way.
    But, I've been quoting it as it is in the book. The narrative specifically mentions her love for all. I don't think the narrative ever actually mentions a love for Bruce. That picture, and the brief conversation with Mera later, may allude to something there, but that is far from the whole story.

    If I had to wager, I'd say that Rucka and Scott were mostly just having some fun with the set-up given to them. And it worked. We're talking about it years later. I could be wrong, but I really don't think that either Rucka or Scott would say they think Diana's love for Batman is greater than her love for her mother.

    Now, I'm not saying this couldn't have been handled better - I don't want her with Bats either - I just don't see it as bad as some *cough*brett*cough* try to paint it.

  2. #92
    Invincible Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I'm not seeing anything in the quotes though that suggest its not simply the memory of a to-that-point-nonexistent love for Batman that unlocked her freedom. The narration mentions her love for everything, yes, but she's still under the thrall of the black ring. Knowing of her love for everything does nothing. Feeling bad deep down of the illusions of hurting her family does nothing. She doesn't come out of it until the vision of Batman kisses her. Its the classic kiss from the prince waking the princess imagery. Regardless of it just being an illusion, he's what it took to break the hold of the ring. Everything else failed. So I always have and always will read it that its her out-of-the-blue love for him specific that does the job and solely him.

    And it actually didn't work. Its talked about still today from time to time, but for the most part in the most negative of contexts, and the most damning thing to show how truly irrelevant it was was that it went completely ignored from then on out. Nothing ever touched up upon it to even so much as put a bow on the implications. Not her book, not any future event, hell no one even bothered to give the two characters a reunion scene in The Return of Bruce Wayne. In the context of the verse, it was completely forgotten and unmentioned and remains so to this day, as if it never happened.

    Which I suppose creates the fair question of why does something so irrelevant still bother me? I dunno, its geekdom stuff, irrelevant things bother us all the time.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 09-12-2017 at 06:33 PM.
    They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son. - Jor-El.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I'm not seeing anything in the quotes though that suggest its not simply the memory of a to-that-point-nonexistent love for Batman that unlocked her freedom. The narration mentions her love for everything, yes, but she's still under the thrall of the black ring. Knowing of her love for everything does nothing. Feeling bad deep down of the illusions of hurting her family does nothing. She doesn't come out of it until the vision of Batman kisses her. Its the classic kiss from the prince waking the princess imagery. Regardless of it just being an illusion, he's what it took to break the hold of the ring. Everything else failed. So I always have and always will read it that its her out-of-the-blue love for him specific that does the job and solely him.
    See, this I just don't get. The "kiss" doesn't actually break the black ring. Diana does that two pages later. Aphrodite specifically says it's "love for all creation." She never says a word about Batman. Batman isn't even present at this stage. To say it's all about Batman is to ignore all the rest going on.

    And it actually didn't work. Its talked about still today from time to time, but for the most part in the most negative of contexts, and the most damning thing to show how truly irrelevant it was was that it went completely ignored from then on out. Nothing ever touched up upon it to even so much as put a bow on the implications. Not her book, not any future event, hell no one even bothered to give the two characters a reunion scene in The Return of Bruce Wayne. In the context of the verse, it was completely forgotten and unmentioned and remains so to this day, as if it never happened.
    Of course it went nowhere. I don't think anyone intended it to. Even when Mera questions Diana about what was shown when they bonded through the lasso, Diana says, "there was nothing that ever needed saying." That's hardly the world's greatest love story.

    Which I suppose creates the fair question of why does something so irrelevant still bother me? I dunno, its geekdom stuff, irrelevant things bother us all the time.
    Of course it's fair game to be bothered. I'm sure I'm well-known for doing more than my fair share of expressing my own bothersome geekdom stuff, so, I find it interesting and refreshing to not be the one bothered so much by this.

  4. #94
    Invincible Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I'll have to read it again sometime. If my perspective is clouded by time the initial distaste of it all, I'd own it.
    They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son. - Jor-El.

  5. #95
    Astonishing Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    I remember reading that at the times (2010) Rucka said at a con to explain the BN thing that he thinks that Diana loves Batman for some weird reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Nothing ever touched up upon it to even so much as put a bow on the implications. Not her book, not any future event, hell no one even bothered to give the two characters a reunion scene in The Return of Bruce Wayne. In the context of the verse, it was completely forgotten and unmentioned and remains so to this day, as if it never happened.
    Are you sure?



    Last edited by Last Son of Krypton; 09-12-2017 at 07:25 PM.

  6. #96
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    ^Oh what in God's name is that?

  7. #97
    Astonishing Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    ^Oh what in God's name is that?
    It's from JLA 80-Page Giant 2011. A demon tempts Diana and Kara using their lust for Bruce and Dick.

  8. #98
    Invincible Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    LOL, then I stand corrected yet again. I never read that garbage, and glad I never heard of it till now.

    So one, laughably awful reference in all the years since. Only thing that makes me sad though is that they had to take the Dick and Kara dynamic, which back then was admittedly cute because despite Kara's one-sided affections he was always a gentleman, and make it tawdry.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 09-12-2017 at 07:40 PM.
    They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son. - Jor-El.

  9. #99
    Astonishing Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    LOL, then I stand corrected yet again. I never read that garbage, and glad I never heard of it till now.

    So one, laughably awful reference in all the years since. Only thing that makes me sad though is that they had to take the Dick and Kara dynamic, which back then was admittedly cute because despite Kara's one-sided affections he was always a gentleman, and make it tawdry.
    It makes me wonder how something like this can get past editorial.

  10. #100
    Invincible Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Fanboy writing by creators living vicariously through Batman seems fly through just fine.
    They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son. - Jor-El.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    I remember reading that at the times (2010) Rucka said at a con to explain the BN thing that he thinks that Diana loves Batman for some weird reason.



    Are you sure?



    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    It's from JLA 80-Page Giant 2011. A demon tempts Diana and Kara using their lust for Bruce and Dick.
    What the actual ****. How did this get past editorial?

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I'll have to read it again sometime. If my perspective is clouded by time the initial distaste of it all, I'd own it.
    Oh, I don't wish that on you - re-read something you enjoy.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    ^Oh what in God's name is that?
    Wish I could go back to not knowing that was an actual comic.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    I loved the Jimenz run for the same reasons you hated it. Up until that point Diana's only character flaw was her propensity to abandon her friends. It wasn't intentional and there was no real negligence on her part, it was just that things tended to happen to them while she was busy somewhere else. You could see how characters in the story could fault her for that, but we the readers didn't, so it wasn't a real flaw.

    This changed with Jimenez who showed Diana being openly jealous of Hippolyta and resentful of Hippolyta taking up her mantle, that was supposed to be a penance for past misdeeds, but quickly became something Hippolyta learned to enjoy. It was a no win situation, she and her mother both had good points. How could Diana be angry at Hippolyta for doing the exact same thing she did? How could Hippolyta abandon her responsibilities as Queen and flounce around Man's World in newly commissioned bodices, saving lives and having adventures with her new boyfriend Wildcat, while Themyscira suffered on the brink of civil war? Was she not allowed a personal life outside the boundaries set up for her? Historically Diana would have preached that she did, except when it came to her own mother she didn't feel that way.

    There was no easy solution and then Hippolyta died before the problem was truly resolved. When Julia finally held Diana's feet to the fire and displayed the perfectly human reaction of a mother with a child in peril and called Diana out on her inability to protect Vanessa, she was justified. So was Trevor Barne's sister justified in taking issue with Diana for getting her brother killed. He'd still be alive if he had never met Diana and become involved her world. This was real stuff, soap opera trappings aside.

    Jimenez offered characters with real emotions, they just weren't the ones we were used to seeing in the Wonder Woman title. That's what made it great.
    I would have no trouble with any of these ideas but none of it seemed real. Maybe a better analogy would be a reality show, where people want to amplify tensions to make the drama more intense. None of it seemed organic. Where did Diana's jealousy come from? The big tension between mother and daughter, and it just appeared one day.

    Would Julia really slap her friend? I mean, have you ever slapped anyone? I haven't and i don't think I ever could. It's commonplace on soap operas but not that common in real life, unless we're talking about deranged people.

    The Civil War-- Amazons killing each other, and yet the tensions dissipate and disappear because of a political gesture. Oh, we're dissolving the monarchy, problem solved. In the real world, that wouldn't cut it. When people are killing, they want blood.

    And I might be misremembering, but Trevor died in Walt Simonson's run, so I don't think his sister would be criticizing Diana for something that hadn't happened yet.

    I have no problem with characters having big emotions. They just didn't seem real to me. None of it seemed grounded in the way real people act.

  14. #104
    Lv 67 Pinsir's Avatar
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    If you people want more embarrassing Wonder Woman moments...

    Also visit my blog where I expose Wonder Woman for the criminal she is!

    How come these anonymous sources failed to report Zack Snyder had left post-production on Justice League? They seem to know everything now...

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Wasn't it not his idea at all?
    I'm usually going by who's name is on the cover of a book, and I haven't heard about anyone else at DC mandating this being put in there... plus if there was, I would imagine it had to be Johns.

    Plus, I am not sure why anyone would actually mandate this part? I mean, it's part of a tie-in story that doesn't have much of an impact on the rest of the big event, so it would seem rather misplaced if someone at DC came to Rucka and told him it had to be Batman that breaks her out of the Black Lantern's control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Except, to me at least, it was made very clear.
    Well, thats down to how we've read the issue then.

    Diana is powerful, stubborn and resourceful. The gods knew that, sooner or later, she would try to go home but, more to the point, they feared she might be able to succeed despite their efforts.
    And the thing with that, if they had made their efforts great enough, then Diana would never have made it.
    Like, in Azzarello's book, access to Olympus was restricted to a set number of deities, they could take you with them if they wanted to... but only they could go there. So technically the First Born could have lain waste to everything on Earth and the Gods could have been unaffected.
    And in Rucka's setting, for one reason or another, the location of Paradise Island was a mystery even to Deimos and Phobos.
    What I am trying to get at is that the gods are more than powerful enough to keep Diana from something... and unlike Marvel, DC doesn't have Earth-magicians (ala Dr. Strange) thats powerful enough to break their spells. Diana would need the aid of a higher power if she was ever to succeed.

    This was actually my favorite part of the arc - that the gods knew Diana was so smart and so skilled and so driven by her love for her mother and her sisters that somehow, she would find a way back.
    Which is all very nice... if she had made it there. But there was a barrier she couldn't get through at the very end, so pardon for saying this but it also seems to demonstrate the inherent cruelty of the Gods because they make it possible for her to get that close to getting home and then puts an impassable barrier in the doorway.
    And again, if all of this secrecy surrounding Themyscira was to keep Ares from returning to full form, with his blessing no less... why on gods green Earth did they make this kind of loophole for his sons and whoever else to get to him?
    I am oddly reminded of how Robot Chicken poked fun at Lex Luthors armor where he stands and boast it's a flawless design before getting hit in the head with a ball.

    So they sought to put another layer on it - hoping that if she *thought* she was home, she would stop trying to really get home.
    Which they shouldn't have done... I mean, if they had just left Diana as everyone had said; unable to return home and with no knowledge of where it was... then Diana's search would have been fruitless. But by putting up the smokescreen they set off all the alarm bells in Diana who now definitely had to find her real home and find out why she was lied to in the first place.

    Again, I'm not saying you should like the story, or that you should like Rucka's arc or that you would find the answers satisfying, just that there were answers that were supplied.

    There were things I liked and things I didn't like about Rucka's story, but, unlike Azzarello's, I felt that he at least attempted to answer all of the major questions. How/why did she leave home, how/why did she get powers, how/why did she get her costume and the name 'Wonder Woman,' how/why she ended up living where she did, etc. Was it perfect? Of course not - so few writers are. Was I happy with all of the answers? Not all, but most of them, but at least I felt he had answered most if not all of the key questions I had.
    I think I would have liked it better if it had been an elseworlds to be honest... or if I could shake the notion that large parts of it was simply in place, not to tell a story, but to undo another writers work... it's kinda like how Trump is running his White House, he doesn't have an agenda of his own, most of the things he is doing is dismantling stuff Obama put in place.
    And I dont know if we can agree on this, but I think Rucka could have told his story about Diana loosing her way home, the thing about Cale and her kid and the bits about Deimos and Phobos looking for their dad without wiping out the New 52. And if the goal was to rehabilitate and make the Amazons shiny again, and that being all that there was to that, you could easily just have written that 'on top' of the New 52 version... like showing their Themyscira in the sunlight, write them as more positive as Diana moves among them, and you could ofc add a conclave meeting between the higherup's where the business with the sons were properly digested and dealt with along with the raid... as you've often suggested, where they could agree to stop the raids now and instead have the Amazons hit town when it's time to procreate.

    Well there we are again at what we read into the pages. Like I felt Azzarello answered all the major things as well, and stuff like her choice of residence was a minor thing and other things you could simply figure out on your own, like why did she leave? She wanted to see what was beyond the horizon and because she wanted to go on adventures. Meanwhile I felt Rucka let the big mystery he started his run with slip into the drain in a very unsatisfying manner. Plus, as I have said before, the whole thing just seemed to be used as a means for Rucka to bring back all of his old creations for a cameo and then let them slip away again before anything could really be done with them... like Io and Ferdinand.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    It needs no explanation, because the plot speaks for itself. Deimos and Phobos are not Olympians. The patrons are the ones who created the magical barrier specifically to keep them (and others like them who wanted to free Ares) out.
    It's no so much about how much power they have, we saw they had enough to get through. It's more about the secret... Olympus is not the CIA and most of the time Zeus can't even hide his lovers from Hera, and with Strife presumably still loitering around looking for mischief, how did they manage to hide and entire island for so long? (obviously they did, but it just seems to be a rare case of luck rather than in character of Olympus).

    In the context of this run, who exactly is finding the island before Steve crashes on it?

    The Gods giving Diana the lasso of truth doesn't mean they want her to be able to see through their own machinations. They're dicks like that, Diana herself says they have her love but not her trust. And it didn't even work, because she saw through it anyway, so clearly no matter how long it takes, she sees through illusions even the Olympians create.
    Good question, another one would be: How did Steve even crash on it to begin with? Like, Rucka's real Themyscira was hidden this well ever since Ares was put in the tree long before the Amazons appeared, and his sons had been looking for it ever since... yet Steve and his boys somehow manage to crash into it, seemingly by accident.
    But in the broader scope of Rebirth and the New 52, which you have to take into account because half the story is built on it. The New 52 Themysicra has been around for as long as the other one, and been visited by outsiders for as long as there have been Amazons to show them the way there... Like Cain the vampire and the Demon Knights, Ra's al Ghul somehow also knew where it was and then you had the voyages of Hessia who went across the world to collect hidden Amazons and bring them home when she wasn't getting them all killed.

    Well that just sort of flies in the face of what the Lasso is on most occasions, we don't know what it really is atm in it's 'Perfect' guise, but in the past the Lasso wasn't a piece of rope, it was an absolute concept spun into the shape of a rope... Truth is an absolute and can't be broke, hence why the Lasso could not be broken either unless you could warp the very fabric of reality. And it's proximity was before Rucka added the extra layer via Athena, the reason Diana couldn't be mindcontrolled by Dr. Psycho or lost in Max Lords illusions. Likewise the Lasso also worked on the Gods themselves, regardless of how powerful they were.
    But as I said, Rucka renamed the Lasso into the Perfect, so maybe it never was the old Lasso of Truth? (Something I could accept since Azzarello also changed it's nature with Hephaestus noting it was Diana forcing the truth out of people, not the Lasso itself.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I'm not seeing anything in the quotes though that suggest its not simply the memory of a to-that-point-nonexistent love for Batman that unlocked her freedom. The narration mentions her love for everything, yes, but she's still under the thrall of the black ring. Knowing of her love for everything does nothing. Feeling bad deep down of the illusions of hurting her family does nothing. She doesn't come out of it until the vision of Batman kisses her.
    To be honest, I didn't think it was that odd, because it was just hearkening back to the Obsidian Age and it's aftermath where Batman and Diana almost became a thing, but neither of them would take the first step to get the ball rolling.

    Asides that, remembering the story now, I do see it as Aphrodite's trial and error method to break Diana out of the Black Lantern spell... she tried with love for her mother and her sisters first and that wasn't enough, then she picked the deeply romantic love for Batman, something that was kicking around the back of Diana's head for a while and something that hadn't been ruined by reality.

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