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  1. #16
    Captain Obvious big_adventure's Avatar
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    Here's the deal, for me:

    Surfer, with his significantly better speed and all of his esoteric funtime good stuff would take Zamasu. Turn him into an immortal teacup - he certainly does not have anything like feats for resisting that, or acting in such a state.

    Most of the class 100 brick crowd that DOESN'T have Surfer-style esoterics loses eventually, given MZ's ability to shrug or come right back from hits from SSBs.

    I'm somewhat leery on Speed God Wally stealing his speed - that might be a bridge too far for me, given his specific resistance to time shenanigans and his overall power level.

    It gets interesting at the skyfather level: His feats are simply not on, say, Odin level or RKT level for me. I know that some people here want to put him on "universe buster" level, but... I dunno, the feats just don't back it up, similar to how they don't for Beerus. That, and the same vulnerability to transmutation still applies.

    And he's gonna get punked by anyone higher: Galactus, a Celestial, Eternity, top-level Phoenix, top-level Spectre, Franklin Richards, Lucifer Morningstar, blah blah blah.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    Here's the deal, for me:

    Surfer, with his significantly better speed and all of his esoteric funtime good stuff would take Zamasu. Turn him into an immortal teacup - he certainly does not have anything like feats for resisting that, or acting in such a state.

    Most of the class 100 brick crowd that DOESN'T have Surfer-style esoterics loses eventually, given MZ's ability to shrug or come right back from hits from SSBs.

    I'm somewhat leery on Speed God Wally stealing his speed - that might be a bridge too far for me, given his specific resistance to time shenanigans and his overall power level.

    It gets interesting at the skyfather level: His feats are simply not on, say, Odin level or RKT level for me. I know that some people here want to put him on "universe buster" level, but... I dunno, the feats just don't back it up, similar to how they don't for Beerus. That, and the same vulnerability to transmutation still applies.

    And he's gonna get punked by anyone higher: Galactus, a Celestial, Eternity, top-level Phoenix, top-level Spectre, Franklin Richards, Lucifer Morningstar, blah blah blah.
    Eh I think his Giygas form, might be universe level, since he spread like some kind of virus, that was merging with the Universe, and somehow started effecting other timelines. To the point were it took a universe busting attack to put him down.

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member Cody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastDalek View Post
    Eh I think his Giygas form, might be universe level, since he spread like some kind of virus, that was merging with the Universe, and somehow started effecting other timelines. To the point were it took a universe busting attack to put him down.
    Multiverse.

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  4. #19
    Captain Obvious big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastDalek View Post
    Eh I think his Giygas form, might be universe level, since he spread like some kind of virus, that was merging with the Universe, and somehow started effecting other timelines. To the point were it took a universe busting attack to put him down.
    Eh, he still has no feats at all for resisting telepathy or soul-stealing or transmutation. He's potent, buuuuuut, not exactly perfect for a rumble against peeps with feats for esoteric screwage, is what I'm saying, since that kind of stuff generally doesn't exist in DB.

    Mileage, as people (OK, person...) have been known to say, may vary.

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member The Drunkard Kid's Avatar
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    Eh, much weaker beings than fused Zamasu have either ignored reality warping dragon gods through sheer power level, or been able able to continue fighting at a high level after being turned into candy, so transmutation, at least, is probably not a big deal to him. Soul stealing probably wouldn't do much, either, due to his immortality automatically undoing any damage done to him, as well as the fact that he is able to abandon physical form and become a multiverse.

    Telepathy is possible, but I'm not sure how useful it would be since other DB characters have shown the ability to dpar telepathically, and as a Kaiou he should likely be a pretty powerful telepath in his own right, though he admittedly had zero feats of telepathy and I can't remember anyone using telepathy offensively in DB.

  6. #21
    Captain Obvious big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    Eh, much weaker beings than fused Zamasu have either ignored reality warping dragon gods through sheer power level, or been able able to continue fighting at a high level after being turned into candy, so transmutation, at least, is probably not a big deal to him. Soul stealing probably wouldn't do much, either, due to his immortality automatically undoing any damage done to him, as well as the fact that he is able to abandon physical form and become a multiverse.

    Telepathy is possible, but I'm not sure how useful it would be since other DB characters have shown the ability to dpar telepathically, and as a Kaiou he should likely be a pretty powerful telepath in his own right, though he admittedly had zero feats of telepathy and I can't remember anyone using telepathy offensively in DB.
    Well, about the first point: the Dragon Ball dragons are, I believe, explicitly and (most definitely) implicitly limited in what they can do to a living thing. Shenron or Porunga can laughably bring back every single being Frieza or his men can kill - or Buu, and that's a lotta people, or even rebuild a planet in a heartbeat, but can't do diddly negatively to one as weak as Namek-era Frieza himself. OTOH, they can grant him - or anyone else - immortality. Go figure. It's best not to think about it too much. A more direct point here: Zammy grabbed himself the Super Dragon Balls. Given that his overriding goal was "get rid of mortals" if they were capable of something on that scale, wouldn't he have just done it? But no, he decided to steal Goku's body in one iteration and to wish for immortality in the other (soooooooo ironic that he needed a filthy Ningen for his plan to kill all the Ningens).

    And I hope you are not comparing Buu's transmutation feats to the Surfer's or Odin's or Galactus'. That would be ridiculous. And it's also asking us to transfer a feat from one completely unique being to another, something that is generally a no-no here.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    Well, about the first point: the Dragon Ball dragons are, I believe, explicitly and (most definitely) implicitly limited in what they can do to a living thing. Shenron or Porunga can laughably bring back every single being Frieza or his men can kill - or Buu, and that's a lotta people, or even rebuild a planet in a heartbeat, but can't do diddly negatively to one as weak as Namek-era Frieza himself. OTOH, they can grant him - or anyone else - immortality. Go figure. It's best not to think about it too much. A more direct point here: Zammy grabbed himself the Super Dragon Balls. Given that his overriding goal was "get rid of mortals" if they were capable of something on that scale, wouldn't he have just done it? But no, he decided to steal Goku's body in one iteration and to wish for immortality in the other (soooooooo ironic that he needed a filthy Ningen for his plan to kill all the Ningens).

    And I hope you are not comparing Buu's transmutation feats to the Surfer's or Odin's or Galactus'. That would be ridiculous. And it's also asking us to transfer a feat from one completely unique being to another, something that is generally a no-no here.
    Zamasu's final form doesn't have a mind or even a physical body anymore, I'm not exactly sure telepathy or transmutation will work on that thing.
    Last edited by TheLastDalek; 09-13-2017 at 05:29 AM.

  8. #23
    Mighty Member abmccray's Avatar
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    Buus transmutation feats are actually really, really good. He only turns people into food, yes, but he does it instantly, and over wide areas, which most people can't do. He transmuted possibly millions of people (as it was an entire city) at once, instantly, which is high up there.

  9. #24
    Captain Obvious big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abmccray View Post
    Buus transmutation feats are actually really, really good. He only turns people into food, yes, but he does it instantly, and over wide areas, which most people can't do. He transmuted possibly millions of people (as it was an entire city) at once, instantly, which is high up there.
    True, I was really referring to his limits of "food only." Well, that and "a city full of people" isn't exactly THAT high up there, not for people who whip air into giant machines and such. Also, the only time he did this to a flying super tough guy is SV. He mostly did this to people that can't fly. It's entirely possible that EVERYONE maintains their consciousness in the transformation, but only SV could fly and was significantly tougher than Buuhan, so it made him tougher to beat thanks to being so much smaller.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    True, I was really referring to his limits of "food only." Well, that and "a city full of people" isn't exactly THAT high up there, not for people who whip air into giant machines and such. Also, the only time he did this to a flying super tough guy is SV. He mostly did this to people that can't fly. It's entirely possible that EVERYONE maintains their consciousness in the transformation, but only SV could fly and was significantly tougher than Buuhan, so it made him tougher to beat thanks to being so much smaller.
    Didn't he also transmute Daboora?

  11. #26
    Reborn Samurai Len Ikari145's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abmccray View Post
    Buus transmutation feats are actually really, really good. He only turns people into food, yes, but he does it instantly, and over wide areas, which most people can't do. He transmuted possibly millions of people (as it was an entire city) at once, instantly, which is high up there.
    He also transmuted a group of people into clay for him to create his new house.
    Tsubaki: Noel, get ready for tomorrow tonight.

    Noel: Why? What're we doing tomorrow night?

    Tsubaki: The same thing we do every night---try to get Jin in my pants!

    Noel:Ummm...

  12. #27
    Captain Obvious big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Len Ikari145 View Post
    He also transmuted a group of people into clay for him to create his new house.
    Forgot about that one.

  13. #28
    Captain Obvious big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Morgan View Post
    Didn't he also transmute Daboora?
    He also IMMEDIATELY at him and chewed him up, And Dabura was nowhere near tough enough to even scratch Buu's paint.

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member Cody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    Well, about the first point: the Dragon Ball dragons are, I believe, explicitly and (most definitely) implicitly limited in what they can do to a living thing. Shenron or Porunga can laughably bring back every single being Frieza or his men can kill - or Buu, and that's a lotta people, or even rebuild a planet in a heartbeat, but can't do diddly negatively to one as weak as Namek-era Frieza himself. OTOH, they can grant him - or anyone else - immortality. Go figure. It's best not to think about it too much. A more direct point here: Zammy grabbed himself the Super Dragon Balls. Given that his overriding goal was "get rid of mortals" if they were capable of something on that scale, wouldn't he have just done it? But no, he decided to steal Goku's body in one iteration and to wish for immortality in the other (soooooooo ironic that he needed a filthy Ningen for his plan to kill all the Ningens).

    And I hope you are not comparing Buu's transmutation feats to the Surfer's or Odin's or Galactus'. That would be ridiculous. And it's also asking us to transfer a feat from one completely unique being to another, something that is generally a no-no here.
    Vegito is granted his resistance to transmutation due to the earrings he wears. No reason why Zamasu shouldn't be granted the same since he too is fused by the earrings. Scale means nothing when you are still moving and fighting after being turned into candy, so there isn't anything to suggest that they couldn't do the same if turned into something by Surfer or the like.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    Physically grabbing an released Black Hole to stop it is like throwing a sandwich at Galactus to stop him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Len Ikari145 View Post
    I stand by my belief of Toriyama seeing a certain match online and going "Oh Yeah?!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Every time you say the name of some kind of nonsense martial art, an angel gets its wings, and Val Armorr learns the martial art, retroactively founds it, then super karates the angel unconscious with it.

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member The Drunkard Kid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cody View Post
    Vegito is granted his resistance to transmutation due to the earrings he wears. No reason why Zamasu shouldn't be granted the same since he too is fused by the earrings. Scale means nothing when you are still moving and fighting after being turned into candy, so there isn't anything to suggest that they couldn't do the same if turned into something by Surfer or the like.
    The source of Vegeto's resistance was never specified, but was either due to power level and/or his being a Potara Fusion, and since Fused Zamasu is much stronger and also a Potara Fusion as you noted, it can easily be handwaved that he would have been able to recreate that feat.

    As to the reason why the Earth/Namek Dragonball couldn't harm people as "weak" as Vegeta, Frieza, and Goku from the Saiyajin/Namek arcs even though they could presumably still make them immortal, it's because they were explicitly unable to effect people stronger than their creator against their will, and all three of those guys were many times stronger than the guys fueling the dragons in question.
    Last edited by The Drunkard Kid; 09-14-2017 at 12:19 PM.

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