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  1. #16
    Incredible Member Bafflement's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by True Believer Tony View Post
    What I want to know if if he has Warren's memories or not because unless there's a really good explanation for it, he really shouldn't. Remender made it pretty clear that they were burned away at the conclusion of The Dark Angel Saga. Where did they come from?
    It's not quite that simple. Psylocke's view in tDAS was that everything burnt away, but in Remender's Uncanny Avengers the Apocalypse Twins believed they could restore their father to his normal self.

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganAlpha30X33 View Post
    There wasn't a problem until Kyle and Yost just ignored continuity to put Warren on their murder death kill X-Force squad and then Remender dreamt up that whole dual personality problem and then Bunn didn't full explain the new status quo for Warren at the end of his last run...this team almost seems like it's just biding time until something better comes along...or the next crossover...
    Kyle and Yost didnt ignore any continuity. There character arc was very well explained in X-Force and Remender took it to the next level in one of the best X-men story of the past decade

  3. #18
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    Yeah, KYost didn't ignore continuity. Recommend re-reading that arc, pal.

    On Bunn's Warren though, whilst not finalised, I think it was pretty clear where he left Archangel. He was one entity, at peace with himself, with the memory of all his past selves. He certainly needed more time to develop him as a character, but he was not completely devoid of moments of insight- CW2 X-Men sees Archangel in action, particularly, and then little moments in following issues of Bunncanny. I think even the Apocalypse Wars arc is pretty clear that he ends as a Warren at peace with himself. He's essentially the Warren of the 90s, in that he has the look and powers of Archangel, but leans more into the pre-Archangel persona. Whilst, of course, still angst-ing about identity and past actions and such.

    Soule just wanted to change that up, either for the sake of his story or for the nostalgia of a different Warren. I assume we'll see as it goes on. I hope Grace leans towards the Bunn interpretation, as I'm already reading AXM as post-continuity.

    I don't think it's entirely Soule's fault, as he probably made his Astonishing pitch before the new Archangel had really set into people's consciousness, but editorial really should have stopped him here. Soule said he wanted a book that wasn't hung up on continuity, but, imo, Bunn's version would have been less challenging to new readers than Soule's Hulkangel.

    On the other hand, the Hulkangel is a much more simplified down version of the Angel/Archangel dynamic than what we usually get, so maybe he made the right call. I'm not keen though. As I said, hope Grace leans hard into Bunn's.

  4. #19

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    The thing with what Sina is doing is that we saw preview art of the Iceman 'Legacy' and it, sadly, shows Archangel as regular ol' Warren. There could be a pretty easy fix to this, though. In Bunncanny X-Men #10 (maybe 11?), we see every iteration of Warren there's ever been in his mindscape. Maybe he can change, aesthetically, into whatever form he chooses whether that be a 90's look or his dark blue/grey form. Still wouldn't explain why he has to control himself from becoming Archangel.

  5. #20
    All-New Member Bontchimuz's Avatar
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    I really like this new iteration of Angel/Archangel.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ţh€ €жţяą-๏яďɨɲąя Tycon View Post
    The thing with what Sina is doing is that we saw preview art of the Iceman 'Legacy' and it, sadly, shows Archangel as regular ol' Warren. There could be a pretty easy fix to this, though. In Bunncanny X-Men #10 (maybe 11?), we see every iteration of Warren there's ever been in his mindscape. Maybe he can change, aesthetically, into whatever form he chooses whether that be a 90's look or his dark blue/grey form. Still wouldn't explain why he has to control himself from becoming Archangel.
    Isn't the only preview one of the 'Primer' pages? So that's the Champions in the past, pre-Archangel, unless I've missed a preview.

  7. #22
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    No I remember what happened before they started Warren had gone back to the feathered wings, then they changed it that they feathers only looked like feathers and it was still what Apocalypse did to him, and all of that after Black Tom had supposedly sucked out the last of what Apocalypse had done to him also before Kyle and Yost took over...

  8. #23

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    I believe this is present-day previews (mostly since Robbie is there):

    http://www.cbr.com/interview-iceman-...y-black-widow/



  9. #24
    Astonishing Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    The problems with Archangel go all the way back to Austen and him making Angel the creeper who sleeps with young girls and has "healing blood". He has been in a downward sprial ever since. Honestly adult Warren at this point is just as broken as a character as adult Beast is. At this point it would just be best to have them both go out in blaze of glory and just go forward with the teen Angel and Beast.

  10. #25

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    This whole character confuses me. I got lost with Angel after Apocalpyse got to him. So what happened to the Angel who could heal things? Archangel is a Jekyll Hyde thing? I thought his Archangel form was permanent?

  11. #26
    Mighty Member L.R Johansson's Avatar
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    Thank god for this thread... because I've been out of the loop, not reading all of his appearances, and I was getting really confused as to what the deal is with Archangel!

    This sort of convoluted crap is why I sometimes, even though I absolutely love superhero comics, sometimes want to completely give up on them.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ţh€ €жţяą-๏яďɨɲąя Tycon View Post
    I believe this is present-day previews (mostly since Robbie is there):

    http://www.cbr.com/interview-iceman-...y-black-widow/


    You're totally right, I hadn't seen these!!

  13. #28
    Astonishing Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganAlpha30X33 View Post
    No I remember what happened before they started Warren had gone back to the feathered wings, then they changed it that they feathers only looked like feathers and it was still what Apocalypse did to him, and all of that after Black Tom had supposedly sucked out the last of what Apocalypse had done to him also before Kyle and Yost took over...
    Yeah you should go back and read it bc thats not what happened. Black Tom didnt suck away anything that Apocalypse did. That attack triggered Warren's secondary mutation which allowed him to heal, reverting back to his original pigment. Yost and Kyle never said his wings only looked like feathers; they were feathered. Wolfsbane mauled and tore them apart and Elixir realized he couldnt regrow them since the cells werent human; they were alien (Celestial to be exact), which is consistent with what Apocalypse did to him back in X-Force. When Warrren's feathered wings originally returned, there wasnt any real explanation for it. His wings just appeared under the metal wings and he was left wondering if it was part of some master plan of Apocalypse. X-force didnt really retcon or contradict anything. It added onto what was already established

    Quote Originally Posted by HandofPrometheus View Post
    This whole character confuses me. I got lost with Angel after Apocalpyse got to him. So what happened to the Angel who could heal things? Archangel is a Jekyll Hyde thing? I thought his Archangel form was permanent?
    Hippie Angel was healing over in WaTX. Its an aspect thats been downplayed since the Austen run

    The Jekyll Hyde thing is a new development from AXM. Dont think about it too much bc its inconsistent with him in other books like Secret Warriors, Uncanny X-men and soon Iceman
    Last edited by Havok83; 09-09-2017 at 11:12 AM.

  14. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by L.R Johansson View Post
    Thank god for this thread... because I've been out of the loop, not reading all of his appearances, and I was getting really confused as to what the deal is with Archangel!

    This sort of convoluted crap is why I sometimes, even though I absolutely love superhero comics, sometimes want to completely give up on them.
    I have a feeling whatever Soule has plan will make this 50% more convoluted. But it's good to get a discussion going for some sliver of clarity.

    Quote Originally Posted by JarOfFlies1 View Post
    I guess we will have to wait and see.

    The way Grace describes Angel and Bobby as best friends may be a sign that the Angel seen in Astonishing isn't Hippie Angel at all. That would be a nice start in figuring out Warren's characterization. It would mean we are back to real Angel having to control his Archangel personality. The scene with the cops in Astonishing 3 would seem to confirm that but who knows at this point.
    Thing is that even Warren struggling to maintain control over Archangel would be retroactive in Soule's case

    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    AX#3 is ruining Angel completely... he is such a binary schizoid now... ugh. Worst of both former worlds and lost the complicated plot that was building in latest Uncanny
    Weird that Soule would add what made NuAngel bad and what made the Angel/Archangel outdated to one character. Worst of both worlds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaddor View Post
    why can't he get back with Page Guthrie.
    I think we all know why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Likewater View Post
    Frankly I think the Burn's are a nice touch. Characterization wise? Uhhh, wait and see?
    Guess that's the easiest answer considering we were really thrown into the deep end with Astonishing and everything will slowly unravel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegan Daddy View Post
    It's nice that Sina Grace is making an effort, but I don't know. Warren is so convoluted now. Everyone does their own thing with him. Those sideburns don't look right.
    Warren with sideburns is foreign to me. Always saw him as someone who shaves the sides and maintains large, luscious locs of golden blond.

    Quote Originally Posted by True Believer Tony View Post
    Ugh, thanks for making this topic because this has been bugging me too. Why did Bunn feel the need to create two separate Angels anyway? It makes little sense especially since he just ended up merging them anyway. What I want to know if if he has Warren's memories or not because unless there's a really good explanation for it, he really shouldn't. Remender made it pretty clear that they were burned away at the conclusion of The Dark Angel Saga. Where did they come from?


    The human Warren was NuAngel, I believe. The one who thought he was an angel. Then, the Archangel drones were all DNA from NuAngel's wings that were cut off from Clan Akkaba. I always though Psylocke, in the 8 month time gap, psychically imprinted all of Warren's memories into him.

  15. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by akiresu_ View Post
    You're totally right, I hadn't seen these!!
    Hoping Sina won't have Warren struggle between his forms. Sources of contention is a large trope that I hope doesn't get played too hard (reason the 'police scenes' in AXM are so useless).

    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    The Jekyll Hyde thing is a new development from AXM. Dont think about it too much bc its inconsistent with him in other books like Secret Warriors, Uncanny X-men and soon Iceman
    It was so jarring to open up Secret Empire: United where it continues the thread of Archangel and his Sleepers then read AXM only to find shirtless, schizophrenic Angel.

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