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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think the rot set in as early as 1986. It's just that we got some great material around that time (a lot of which would have worked just fine without a reboot) and characters were introduced over this period that all acquired loyal fanbases. I think this distracts people from the fact that organic storytelling across the whole DCU kind of flew out the window. It became impossible to follow the lore from a Point A to Point B anymore because of all the alterations mid-way.
    I'd say the fact we got some good material and characters out of it proves the lore was just fine

  2. #32
    Mighty Member BatmanJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I'd say the fact we got some good material and characters out of it proves the lore was just fine
    For a couple years we did. But the net effect was to complicate continuity forever, causing every soft and hard relaunch we've had since then. They set out to simplify continuity--the entire point of CoIE--and wound up doing exactly the opposite. This was why Marv Wolfman had a way to reverse the whole thing in his back pocket. If DC had used it we'd never be in this mess now. DC continuity was a far sight simpler before they set out to simplify it. Any kid could, and did, follow the multiverse just fine before CoIE. None of this had to happen. It was a fine story and 1986 was probably the best year for comics ever but after that they should have reversed it if they still had the option. Ever since they didn't, they've twisted themselves into a pretzel trying to get back what they had before the Crisis.

    I think the most likely outcome of the whole Rebirth storyline is to do that in effect but without losing all the history that's been developed in the intervening years. They've already brought back the multiverse, which was supposedly the problem that inspired CoIE. And they're reverting to the mean at every opportunity.

    Whether you loved the story at the time or not (I did), CoIE never should have happened. And once it did they should have found a relatively quick way to reverse it before it got away from them as it so very much did.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatmanJones View Post
    For a couple years we did. But the net effect was to complicate continuity forever, causing every soft and hard relaunch we've had since then. They set out to simplify continuity--the entire point of CoIE--and wound up doing exactly the opposite. This was why Marv Wolfman had a way to reverse the whole thing in his back pocket. If DC had used it we'd never be in this mess now. DC continuity was a far sight simpler before they set out to simplify it. Any kid could, and did, follow the multiverse just fine before CoIE. None of this had to happen. It was a fine story and 1986 was probably the best year for comics ever but after that they should have reversed it if they still had the option. Ever since they didn't, they've twisted themselves into a pretzel trying to get back what they had before the Crisis.

    I think the most likely outcome of the whole Rebirth storyline is to do that in effect but without losing all the history that's been developed in the intervening years. They've already brought back the multiverse, which was supposedly the problem that inspired CoIE. And they're reverting to the mean at every opportunity.

    Whether you loved the story at the time or not (I did), CoIE never should have happened. And once it did they should have found a relatively quick way to reverse it before it got away from them as it so very much did.
    It was a lot more than a couple of years of good stories and far better than what we got out of the new 52. And frankly, then trying to make everything like pre Crisis says more about the writers obsession with nostalgia than it does the universe we got. It didn't get away from them so much as they tried to make it more complicated than it needed to be

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member Vinsanity's Avatar
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    Superman and Lois are broken up, so if they were to be together, it would be a nice build in a modern era. Batman stays as it is, GL the same. No point tinkering with that.

    Be able to try new things. However that's the problem with comic book fans. They want changes but they hate it when it happens.

    Try new characters around in new teams. Dick Grayson and Titans have done their thing. Move on from it.

    Try new relationships like John Stewart and Cat Grant. Don't be afraid to face backlash.

    Titles wise I don't want to list them.

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member Factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FishyZombie View Post
    I think it's ironic, it's the franchises that were restarted from the beginning like Flash and Superman that ended up backtracking. And folks wanna do that with everyone? Batman and Green Lantern didn't start from ground zero and are more stable today because of it. So that's how I'd do new 52. The huge problem with the Superman and Flash approach, is that, sure they were fresh beginnings, but were terrible 'fresh middles'. I get the initial appeal, seeing the protagonist younger, have stories about them meeting villains and other players for the first time, BUT once the new car smell wears off, so does the appeal. And there was no longer any reason to classic stories and characters off the table, so they "debooted." So I think that the smarter thing is to go the Batman/GL route with everyone. SOFT reboot, take out the bits you don't like, add some cool concepts like the court of owls, Emiko Queen, etc, that wouldn't have flown preflashpoint, and move forward. Providing a fresh beginning and the foundation for a fresh, never ending middle, as is the nature of the medium
    Exactly. It boggles my mind that people would trust DC to do another reboot when their New 52 reboots failed so fast.
    I think the smartest approach would be to consider all of pre-FP in continuity unless proven otherwise.
    They could keep most of the classic runs and just ignore a lot of their biggest mistakes (Graduation Day, Identity Crisis etc).

  6. #36
    Mad scientist Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    What changes would you make to DC continuity? What titles would you choose to be part of this initiative?
    Keep it as it started, largely. Except bite the bullet and reboot Green Lantern and Batman along with the rest. Johns and Morrison can finish their runs in their very own ongoings that are not part of the New 52 and are set in the old continuity.

    Oh, and Barbara Gordon is Oracle.

    And fire Bob Harass, never hire Liefeld and Lobdell in the first place, and give the writers a huge amount more freedom.

    Also, there hall be no events. Period. That includes Batman events.
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
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  7. #37
    Astonishing Member Factor's Avatar
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    The changes I'd make:
    - Keep most of Post-Crisis intact, but change some of its biggest flaws.
    - Keep the Multiverse, especially Earth-2. Sure, they could update it a bit, but keep it around. JSA's series should be set there.
    - There would have been a JSA during WWII in the main Earth, but not all of them would still be active (unlike in Earth 2).
    - The main Earth would just be called Earth 1 to avoid confusion. The graphic novel line would be called something else, since they're barely in the same continuity.
    - Wonder Woman would have debuted around the same time as Superman and helped found the League. That was easily the biggest mistake from Perez's run. Otherwise, his origin in still much better than what we got since.
    - Wally and Barry would both be Flash. They'd each patrol on eof the twin cities.
    - Graduation Day and Infinite Crisis didn't quite happen. YJ got to mantain most of their characterization even if they eventually became Teen Titans and Infinite Crisis was just an elaborate plot to destabilize heroes.
    - The YJ4 would still be Teen Titans, but would get to keep their close connections to their mentors and unique personalities (ESPECIALLY Bart, who'd return to being Impulse). Teen Titans would be the middle groung between YJ and Titans/JL.
    - Damian, Jon, Emiko and other kid heroes would be the new Young Justice and the series would have a similar tone to the original.
    - Titans would have as much relevance as the League because they'd keep most of their story. No more ignoring NTT or trying to do it all over again.
    - LOSH would be the Retroboot one, but aspects from the reboot version would be added. The new series would try to start things as fresh as possible, but avoiding another restart like the plague.
    - Keep Kara Zor-El as Supergirl, but bring Linda and her story back as another identity (Superguardian?).

  8. #38
    Fantastic Member The BaRoN's Avatar
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    I'd maybe do an Onslaught type story ending with heroes reborn.

    Ending with Superman, Batman, Justice League, Wonder Woman and JLA and rebooting them in another universe with top artists and writers.

    Batman by Snyder and Bachelo
    Justice League by Johns and Copiel
    Wonder Woman by Waid and Marquez
    JLA by King and Ramos
    Superman by Gleason and Kubert

    Meanwhile in the main DCU, action and DEC carry on but with supporting characters as the world carries on without the big guns.

    Titans and Terrifics step up as premier teams, Suicide squad become popular with public, immortal men expand roster and deal with governments trying get metal.

    Superboy and Robin deal with missing heroes fallout, some new or classic heroes step up against old villains running about.

    12 months later the heroes return to usher in a new age
    Last edited by The BaRoN; 09-12-2017 at 03:58 AM.

  9. #39
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    Get together with all my editors and some of our key creators, have an actual cohesive plan for the over all line that is substanable for several years, make sure everyone is on the same page.

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I'd say the fact we got some good material and characters out of it proves the lore was just fine
    We had some good stuff in the New 52 mixed in with the crap and mediocre stuff as well. We had some GREAT stuff pre-Crisis, and that was the era that was allegedly so confusing a reboot was needed, even though it is far less confusing then all the iterations that followed it. The continuity as a whole being a complete mess doesn't preclude some great stand alone stuff from emerging, but it also doesn't change the fact that post-Crisis, you can't read the old stuff to the present and expect the narrative to make sense with all the crazy alterations that happen mid-way through. Especially when some parts of it (Batman, GL, Titans, the Flash, the Legion) are continuing on as if nothing ever happened whereas other properties (Superman and Wonder Woman) are getting rebooted entirely, thus rendering any stories where they interacted with the other properties (and there were a LOT of them) only readable with some serious mental gymnastics. How is that fun or easy to immerse yourself in?

    They never should have done it. Maybe the New 52 shouldn't have happened and maybe it didn't help the situation at all, but the current people in charge were only following a pattern and a mess they inherited from other minds.

  11. #41
    Incredible Member LifeIsILL's Avatar
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    Simple, put Snyder, Morrison and Robinson on a whole bunch of books.

  12. #42
    Incredible Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    I think it would be cool if DC put out a Shonen Jump type of magazine, for their less well known characters.

  13. #43
    Incredible Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LifeIsILL View Post
    Simple, put Snyder, Morrison and Robinson on a whole bunch of books.
    It would have been interesting if Morrison was Creative Officer at DC rather than Geoff Johns .
    Last edited by Timothy Hunter; 09-12-2017 at 04:50 PM.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    It would have been interesting if Morrison was Creative Officer at DC rather than Geoff Johns .
    Or to have had Mark Waid as Publisher instead of Dan Didio.
    Favorite Mythologies: Green Lantern, Batman (pre-Flashpoint), Spider-Man, The Fantastic Four, the Justice League/JLA (pre-Flashpoint)

    DC Pulls - Action Comics; Batman; Hal Jordan & the GLC; Superman; Wonder Woman

    Marvel Pulls - Captain America: Steve Rogers; The Mighty Thor

    Non-Big Two Pulls - Saga; Archie

  15. #45
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    I think it would be cool if DC put out a Shonen Jump type of magazine, for their less well known characters.
    I've often wondered why DC (and Marvel for that matter) haven't tried this.

    We've seen anthology series before and they don't survive in the comics market. But why not distribute and publish it the same way the manga (like Jump) are? You'd think the people eating up Attack on Titan would be all over Wonder Woman or Kamandi, right? All you need to do is put it in a format they're already buying into.

    Im guessing it's got to do with the Diamond Deal? Perhaps there's a clause in there somewhere stating that comic publishers can't work with the distributor's competition? But if that's the case, it's a pretty thin definition considering the Earth-1 line bypasses Diamond.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    It would have been interesting if Morrison was Creative Officer at DC rather than Geoff Johns .
    Im not a Morrison worshiper; outside of his Superman stuff (which I always enjoy) I'm sorta 50/50 on his work. But I'd have loved to see this.
    Last edited by Ascended; 09-12-2017 at 05:51 PM.
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