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  1. #286
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    Saying "Dc is beating Marvel" and "Marvel is loosing overall because sales are going down in general" are two different debates. Its really strange why some posters here cant see that. The first one is factual wrong going by the limited numbers we have and the second one MiGHT by true, but no matter how you look at it its a completely different argument.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 09-14-2017 at 03:05 PM.

  2. #287
    Fantastic Member Kintor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bor View Post
    Exactly. Saying "Dc is beating Marvel" and "Marvel is loosing overall because sales are going down in general" are two different debates. Its really strange why some posters here cant see that. The first one is factual wrong going by the limited numbers we have and the second one MiGHT by true, but no matter how you look at it its a completely different argument.
    It's all part of the same argument. The industry is in a severe downturn, which is to say it's not growing. DC has the smarter strategy, in that they are decreasing the overall number they publisher in order to concentrate the support of what readers they have left. Marvel it seems is doing the exact opposite, flooding the market with special #1 shot issues and prettier variant covers that retailers can only buy in bulk with other comics, it's a short-term solution at best that is probably making the problem even worse.

  3. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    It's all part of the same argument. The industry is in a severe downturn, which is to say it's not growing. DC has the smarter strategy, in that they are decreasing the overall number they publisher in order to concentrate the support of what readers they have left. Marvel it seems is doing the exact opposite, flooding the market with special #1 shot issues and prettier variant covers that retailers can only buy in bulk with other comics, it's a short-term solution at best that is probably making the problem even worse.
    I am sorry but no its not at all part of the same argument. Thats just not true. Saying DC is beating marvel is factually incorrect and people who keep on saying this are ignoring all available numbers. Its not an argument to make a claim that goes against actual numbers. Thats just reapeating false information and several posters here have done that just because they personally dont like Marvel's output.
    How can you defend this idea? Anyone who is atleast somewhat honest should be able to say that from all available numbers the statement that DC is beating Marvel in sales is false. If you want to argue about quality or whatever thats a different point, but thats not what people have been claiming in all these threads.
    Last edited by Bor; 09-13-2017 at 09:35 AM.

  4. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mah VM View Post
    There are very loud voices in the comic book fandom predicting the fall of Marvel, not because of any solid evidence but out of a desire to feel vindicated for some perceived attack on "classic readers."

    This is not about a curiosity about how well (or not) Marvel is doing, or a concern for the future of the comic industry, but a simple need for the validation of the fan "theory" that Marvel's direction is killing it and once that happens Marvel will do everything to please those "classic readers." Like DC, which is why DC is glorified in threads like this.

    "Classic fans" feel they have DC on a leash and expected the same to happen with Marvel, are constantly told by certain "sources" and channels that it is already happening, and the fact that Marvel is showing no signs of changing their direction kills them. The fact Marvel hasn't cancelled Moon Girl and Squirrel Girl instead of proving them wrong makes them angry. The fact Marvel still outsells DC instead of convincing them those ideas are fallacious makes them even more bitter. The fact Marvel keeps investing in Miles, Kamala, etc... instead of showing them this approach is successful makes them want to believe those "sources" even more passionately.

    This discussion is never going to end because some fans believe that Marvel is slowly dying a karmic death for incurring the wrath of the "classic fans" and anyone who doesn't believe that is a "shill."
    By far one of the truest post I've seen in this thread. They are only saying these things because they WANT Marvel to fail because then it would make them feel validated.
    So they will warp whatever information is out there to fit their viewpoint. It's pretty obvious that those who think critically would know the only difference that happen between Marvel and DC is that DC sales during new 52 had lower top end sales but higher mid to low end sales. So their superman and wonder woman wasn't selling that well but their cyborg and blue beetle was selling better. The only thing that has really happen with rebirth is the opposite, people flocked to the mainstream characters, while cyborg and blue beetle continues to flounder. But since "the classic heroes" are selling better than what they were pre-rebirth, suddenly that means DC is killing everything, even including diversity which literally makes no sense whatsoever.

    It's remarkable, and is one of the exact reasons why we have the split between classic and new readers on the marvel side, while on DC side the new readers have just left and allow DC to focus on just the classic readers. Though they may come back for Dark Matter, who knows.

  5. #290
    Ultimate Member AcesX1X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bor View Post
    I am sorry but no its not at all part of the same argument. Thats just not true. Saying DC is beating marvel is factually incorrect and people who keep on saying this are ignoring all available numbers. Its not an argument to make a claim that goes against actual numbers. Thats just reapeating false information and several posters here have done that just because they personally dont like Marvel's output.
    How can you defend this idea? Anyone who is atleast somewhat honest should be able to say that from all available numbers the statement that DC is beating Marvel in sales is false. If you want to argue about quality or whatever thats a different point, but thats not what people have been claiming in all these threads.
    you would need to look at overall drop off and bleed. are dc losing customers as fast on as many books as marvel? if it's a question of who is failing the hardest, then it depends on who's losing more money at a faster rate.

  6. #291
    Incredible Member stillanerd's Avatar
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    Sheesh, and I thought last months sales estimates were bad. And as I said before, who cares which company is leading in market share if the market has such low returns?

    Number Crunching: the top 20 comics sales estimates for August 2017
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  7. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    I wouldn't say "set the terms" but certainly they wouldn't sell books that were deemed inappropriate for the age group they're selling to nor would Marvel want to offer that kind of material. Its not like Marvel is looking to sell trades of Old Man Logan through Scholastic, for example. But books like Ms. Marvel, Squirrel Girl, Totally Awesome Hulk - those make a perfect fit.
    And this is a really important point. At one time this kind of material would have been separated out as an all-ages book set in an alternative universe. Marvel changed their strategy when they decided to push a wider and more diverse set of books. They now have a policy of using the MU wherever possible. The only exception are books that tie-in to cartoons.

    This strategy is designed to create a ladder, to allow readers to move up to more mature books if they are intrigued. The books aimed at a younger demographic still contain dark and sophisticated themes (just look at Ms. Marvel), they don't talk down to their audience, they are still enjoyable if you are an adult, they include introductions to the wider universe and cast, and importantly don't have an "all-ages" tag on the front cover.

    For those struggling to understand Scholastic, the important thing to remember about Scholastic is that the books are effectively being sold via retail. The books are not returnable but will be deep discounted due to scale. Scholastic are also a publisher of comics (the most successful publisher at the moment) and they understand the potential of a wide line of books. Deals with Scholastic are understandably exciting for Marvel because they widen their reach, increase brand recognition, and bring in a new revenue stream.

  8. #293
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    It's all part of the same argument. The industry is in a severe downturn, which is to say it's not growing. DC has the smarter strategy, in that they are decreasing the overall number they publisher in order to concentrate the support of what readers they have left. Marvel it seems is doing the exact opposite, flooding the market with special #1 shot issues and prettier variant covers that retailers can only buy in bulk with other comics, it's a short-term solution at best that is probably making the problem even worse.
    One of the best things about healthy competition is that different publishers can try different strategies and learn from each other. I don't agree with your analysis of Marvel or DC's strategy however.

  9. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by AcesX1X View Post
    you would need to look at overall drop off and bleed. are dc losing customers as fast on as many books as marvel? if it's a question of who is failing the hardest, then it depends on who's losing more money at a faster rate.
    The claim I have heard several times and have argued against is "DC is beating Marvel in sales". Nothing else. And that claim is false.

  10. #295
    Mighty Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    And this is a really important point. At one time this kind of material would have been separated out as an all-ages book set in an alternative universe. Marvel changed their strategy when they decided to push a wider and more diverse set of books. They now have a policy of using the MU wherever possible. The only exception are books that tie-in to cartoons.

    This strategy is designed to create a ladder, to allow readers to move up to more mature books if they are intrigued. The books aimed at a younger demographic still contain dark and sophisticated themes (just look at Ms. Marvel), they don't talk down to their audience, they are still enjoyable if you are an adult, they include introductions to the wider universe and cast, and importantly don't have an "all-ages" tag on the front cover.

    For those struggling to understand Scholastic, the important thing to remember about Scholastic is that the books are effectively being sold via retail. The books are not returnable but will be deep discounted due to scale. Scholastic are also a publisher of comics (the most successful publisher at the moment) and they understand the potential of a wide line of books. Deals with Scholastic are understandably exciting for Marvel because they widen their reach, increase brand recognition, and bring in a new revenue stream.
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  11. #296
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bor View Post
    The claim I have heard several times and have argued against is "DC is beating Marvel in sales". Nothing else. And that claim is false.
    Best to ignore such claims. And as many of us have been saying over and over again brick and mortar retail is in a crisis generally, especially those sectors that can be served online. Comics doubly so, because many of us have no attachment to paper.

  12. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Best to ignore such claims. And as many of us have been saying over and over again brick and mortar retail is in a crisis generally, especially those sectors that can be served online. Comics doubly so, because many of us have no attachment to paper.
    True. And its not like there isnt sources outside of the direct market like digital comics on places like amazon, comixology or marvel unlimited. I doubt any of these are that big by themselves but together they likely make up atleast some sales. I know I am one of those that have adapted and now only buy digital or in some cases collected editions of the stuff I read.

  13. #298
    Astonishing Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mah VM View Post
    There are very loud voices in the comic book fandom predicting the fall of Marvel, not because of any solid evidence but out of a desire to feel vindicated for some perceived attack on "classic readers."
    Saw a YouTube video the other day that fit that to a tee (of the "bad sales month, see we were right all along" variety). It seemed pretty long on speculation and short on facts. It's honestly hard to take the position seriously, given how little substance the evidence such videos provide to support their claims.

    Quote Originally Posted by stillanerd View Post
    Sheesh, and I thought last months sales estimates were bad. And as I said before, who cares which company is leading in market share if the market has such low returns?
    Maybe they want to be "proven" right? Being "the best" would be validation of their worldview, regardless of how meaningful that is in the big picture.

  14. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by stillanerd View Post
    Sheesh, and I thought last months sales estimates were bad. And as I said before, who cares which company is leading in market share if the market has such low returns?

    Number Crunching: the top 20 comics sales estimates for August 2017
    Just noticed a typo on your article; When discussing the Star Wars: Doctor Aphra comic, the commentary paragraph is a repeat of the Spider-Men II commentary above it. You might want to see about fixing that.

  15. #300
    Incredible Member stillanerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Just noticed a typo on your article; When discussing the Star Wars: Doctor Aphra comic, the commentary paragraph is a repeat of the Spider-Men II commentary above it. You might want to see about fixing that.
    Oh man! That's what I get for trying to copy and paste from Word and it selects the wrong thing. Thanks so much for bringing this to my attention, my good sir.

    EDIT: Okay, all fixed now. Thanks again for pointing that out, WL.
    Last edited by stillanerd; 09-13-2017 at 02:08 PM.
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