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  1. #61
    Cheers, Old Sport Techno_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by classicgmer View Post
    I've noticed this book seems to rub quite a few people on CBR the wrong way (like that really means anything)
    Why shouldn't people's opinions matter? Just because it's a negative one, it shouldn't be taken into account?

    Quote Originally Posted by classicgmer View Post
    but the book is 24 issues in and still going fairly strong so it would seem it had to be doing something right.
    Yeah, it was launched after 20 years without a Strange solo, and right at the time the movie was released, alongside a rather well-known writer. Bad or not, it was going to sell well enough. And it's not like it's doing gangbusters. It's in the 25k-30k range. It routinely gets outsold by Aquaman, Flash, Green Lantern, etc, etc. So you can't use the sales to say "see, people buy this so it's great", which is already a poor reflection of quality, considering all the mainstream things that "sell" and are "well known".

    Quote Originally Posted by classicgmer View Post
    I didn't mind the way Strange was depicted before this but Marvel has obviously found a take on him people seem to like and i don't see how people can dispute this.
    Even if we pretend that the new, hip and cool generation just LOVES "LOLSORANDOM" Strange and abhores his classic version, why the hell should fans of the character be happy that he was essentially changed from the ground up? He went from a wise older man with a regal flair, to a 40 YO who kisses demons in the middle of a kid's exorcism, wears sneakers, makes Star Wars references, and acts like an immature 20 YO, all the while being forced into a needless "muh magic cost" retcon. That's not Doctor Strange, and at this point you might as well have just written a Wiccan solo book. It's the same way with Constantine being absorbed into the mainstream DCU and losing the majority of the things that made him interesting.

    Just because Marvel's writers aren't imaginative enough to handle powerful characters, doesn't mean I have to sit here and pretend to like this "All-New" version of the character. A character that's been around for decades, I might add. Not every single goddamn protagonist needs to be a quipping and quirky "madman". Variety is one of the most important parts of a publishing line.
    Last edited by Techno_Knight; 09-12-2017 at 07:24 AM.
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  2. #62
    Incredible Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    I figured part of the reason they killed Quicksilver was so they didn't have to put up with the potential problems his powers presented in trying to do a team story.
    I don't really buy that. I think Marvel not wanting to push in a big movie franchise a character that was already being used by a rival company in another big movie franchise might have played a bigger part. I do believe that Whedon wanted to create some shock factor, but I feel like it's possible that Marvel considered Pietro as expendable from the get go, which is why it was easier to pick him out of all other characters.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    I don't really buy that. I think Marvel not wanting to push in a big movie franchise a character that was already being used by a rival company in another big movie franchise might have played a bigger part. I do believe that Whedon wanted to create some shock factor, but I feel like it's possible that Marvel considered Pietro as expendable from the get go, which is why it was easier to pick him out of all other characters.
    I figured it was part of the behind the scenes deal between MP Studios and Fox. Like, "Ok you're going to use Quicksilver as in your film so you keep him and we'll just mainly use Scarlet Witch, deal? Deal!"

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    It would be an interesting question which of the two main companies has the biggest number of over-powered characters.

    I certainly agree with you about DC's "human" level characters.

    They do absolutely ridiculous feats...bullet dodging, etc. And it has a ton of them, the Bat family, Green Arrow, etc, etc. Just risible in an era of "gritty" super hero comics with supposedly ruthless powered villains. I mean...Green Arrow? A normal guy with a bow and arrow? Give me an automatic gun, and a weeks training and I'd fancy my own chances of taking him down. And any villain with a decent power-set who can't take him down in less than 5 minutes is completely gormless.

    But at top end? My own gut feeling is that Marvel has slightly more over-powered characters than DC. There's a load of omega level mutants, a ton of gods, mega powered telepaths, a healthy sprinkling of reality changers, etc...and the science guys like Reed and Tony can do practically anything...and do it quick.
    All of that stuff has been done by Marvel's human characters too. Remember that time Daredevil beat up Ultron with a stick? Marvel even has their own Green Arrow. And don't get me started on Bullseye.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arfguy View Post
    This is a good question, but I hope it is thought about before attempting to answer it. Heck, I'd rather they not address this at all if they are not going to do it right. I do not expect the current regime to do anything worthwhile with this kind of question, but I hope some day better minds come in and start running the show.

    In a way, I am glad that the Marvel speedsters are not all that highly regarded. Now, would I like to see a Marvel speedster become a star? Yeah, I think I would really like that. Would I like to see this character rise to prominence due to massive speed displays? No.

    One of the things I used to love about Marvel is that there was only one of Spider-Man. There was only one of Wolverine. There was only one Captain America. I absolutely detest that in the current Marvel universe, "anyone" can be Spider-Man, Wolverine or Captain America. Not only should their powers be unique, only one character should embody that character, IMO. I could love Gwen Stacy as a character and I could love Spider-Man, but that does not mean that I want Gwen Stacy with spider powers. It feels forced to me. It does not feel earned. Spider-Man is not the strongest, fastest, or smartest. He is Peter Parker with spider powers and only he can be Spider-Man, as far as I'm concerned.

    One of the things I would like to see Marvel and DC distance themselves with is similar type characters. There is no way to avoid having characters from each company have bow and arrows as their superhero gimmick. However, one of the reasons I'd rather read Hawkeye than Green Arrow (aside from me being a Marvel fanboy) is that I like Clint is a bit of an arrogant jerk, who questions people. Sure, I could go read a Guy Gardner Green Lantern comic, but Guy Gardner loses a lot of point for being like the 243rd Green Lantern (exaggeration, of course). I can't get behind liking a Flash, because the DC has made it pretty obvious that anyone can become Flash. When I was growing up, I knew Flash as Wally West. However, there used to be a Barry Allen Flash and some creator was in love with that version of Flash so now, Barry Allen has to be Flash. No thanks. If you can just take the characteristics of Wally West and infuse it into Barry Allen, then Wally West is not worth following and neither is Barry Allen.

    In conclusion, if Marvel comics wants to raise a speedster to prominence, I would love to read it. However, give me a worthwhile speedster to read about. I want to read about a good speedster character. I loved Quicksilver, because I could see why he was always so pissy. It made sense to me. You want to kill him off or turn him into an Inhuman because you don't have full rights, then forget it. I won't pick up your Quicksilver comics. Put some thought and care behind a character, give a good creative team (instead of putting the "powerhouse" creative teams on books you think the audience wants *coughcoughInhumansarenowshittycoughcough*) and the readers will check it out.
    That's who Green Arrow is too. And there's only one Green Arrow

  6. #66
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    Speaking of speedsters, I always wanted to see Speed Demon and Daredevil matchup. I was curious as to how Matt's radar senses would process a person moving at incredible speed. Speed Demon would make a nice foe for Daredevil. Him or Speedfreek if he's still alive.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    All of that stuff has been done by Marvel's human characters too. Remember that time Daredevil beat up Ultron with a stick? Marvel even has their own Green Arrow. And don't get me started on Bullseye.
    The most outrageous thing of the top of my head is that Ult Hawkeye killed some guards by flicking his torn off finger nails at them and forcing them to choke.

  8. #68
    Incredible Member Geek Mangacomic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    I know that Marvel isn't really into Speedsters as much as DC but why are Marvel's speedsters so lacklustre? Marvel's most popular character is Quicksilver. He is a character whose claim to fame has less to do with his speed and more to do with the fact that he was Magneto's son. His biggest moments using his powers come from the X-Men movies where his character is so different that he might as well be a different character.

    Once you get pass Quicksilver....what's left?

    You have The Runner, but he is an Elder Of The Universe and doesn't fit into stories so easily. Is he still alive?
    Makkari isn't bad.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    Marvel has other characters who probably would have been portrayed as much more powerful if they had debuted in solo comics rather than teams - Monica Rambeau, Storm and Vision are examples that come to mind.
    Monica Rambeau first appeared in a Spiderman comic in 1982.

  10. #70
    Mighty Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    I don't really buy that. I think Marvel not wanting to push in a big movie franchise a character that was already being used by a rival company in another big movie franchise might have played a bigger part. I do believe that Whedon wanted to create some shock factor, but I feel like it's possible that Marvel considered Pietro as expendable from the get go, which is why it was easier to pick him out of all other characters.
    There are several "overlap" characters that exist in grey areas between the companies. (Fox owns the Fantastic Four and their universe, for instance but somehow managed to forget to fold the Black Panther into the deal.) Wanda and Pietro are two of them as they straddle the X and Avengers universes. The use of such characters is generally the result of a complex negotiation where both companies give up something to get something in return. I don't see any evidence that Wanda is showing up in any of the Fox projects.

    Pietro was more expendable because he's not really an Avenger while Wanda is a perennial Avenger. Editorially he makes the better sacrifice- both for housekeeping reasons and for character motivations for Wanda going forward. None of us knows if there was any more reason for his death than that's how Whedon wanted it, of course, it's not unlikely that Fox and Marvel worked it out so Pietro would stay with the X (sans Wanda) while Marvel gets Wanda without Pietro.
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  11. #71
    Astonishing Member theoneandonly's Avatar
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    what of baseline speedy fighters who aren't super fast yet have the speedy reflexes and reaction time to tag super speedsters? Which universe has a dearth of such characters?
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by mace11 View Post
    Monica Rambeau first appeared in a Spiderman comic in 1982.
    Right, but that Spider-Man annual was basically a "poorly disguised pilot" to launch the new Captain Marvel, as many other characters and concepts have been tried out in Spider-Man. When I said "debut" I should have said her debut as an ongoing character, which turned out to be in the same writer's Avengers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    Pietro was more expendable because he's not really an Avenger while Wanda is a perennial Avenger. Editorially he makes the better sacrifice- both for housekeeping reasons and for character motivations for Wanda going forward. None of us knows if there was any more reason for his death than that's how Whedon wanted it, of course, it's not unlikely that Fox and Marvel worked it out so Pietro would stay with the X (sans Wanda) while Marvel gets Wanda without Pietro.
    Whedon has said that he shot an alternate ending where Quicksilver lives, though it's never been released publicly. He emphasized though that he wanted Quicksilver's death and the other ending was just in case Disney overruled him.

    He seemed to be in love with the idea of teasing Hawkeye's death for the whole movie, putting in every possible cliché that makes it seem like a character is doomed to die (he has a family, he's promising to retire after this one last job, etc), and then killing someone else instead. Just wanting that subversion might have been a bigger factor than not wanting the character around, though it's obvious that he wanted Vision and Wanda in the Avengers more than he wanted Quicksilver.

  13. #73
    Mighty Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post

    Whedon has said that he shot an alternate ending where Quicksilver lives, though it's never been released publicly. He emphasized though that he wanted Quicksilver's death and the other ending was just in case Disney overruled him.

    He seemed to be in love with the idea of teasing Hawkeye's death for the whole movie, putting in every possible cliché that makes it seem like a character is doomed to die (he has a family, he's promising to retire after this one last job, etc), and then killing someone else instead. Just wanting that subversion might have been a bigger factor than not wanting the character around, though it's obvious that he wanted Vision and Wanda in the Avengers more than he wanted Quicksilver.
    yep. i've heard that too. I don't think our points are mutually exclusive.
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    yep. i've heard that too. I don't think our points are mutually exclusive.
    I don't think so either.

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member Arfguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    That's who Green Arrow is too. And there's only one Green Arrow
    Fair enough. I got into comics around the early 90s and I really got into collecting comics around the time when the Chris Claremont & Jim Lee X-Men issue one came out. I got into collecting comic book cards to and at the time there was only Marvel Universe and Marvel Universe Series II cards.

    The first character I saw with bow and arrows as their schtick was Robin Hood. After that, it was Hawkeye. Around the time I started realizing that there were so many similar type characters between Marvel and DC, Connor Hawke was Green Arrow, I think. Something happened with Oliver Queen that I can't remember and Connor Hawke was an even more bad-ass archer than Oliver ever was.

    I then realized that Wally West was not the first Flash. as far I knew, he wasn't even the second Flash. He was third behind Jay Garrick and Barry Allen. Kyle Rayner was Green Lantern, not Hal Jordan. DC was already onto it's third Robin. Batman was about to be replaced by Jean-Paul Valley.

    Marvel Comics had already been my universe because there weren't different characters with the same powers. I am not saying it's a weakness of DC, because DC has a lot of strengths. However, the main team that I liked (the X-Men...I was never an Avengers fan) did not consist of legacy characters. I find legacy characters mostly lazy. Now that laziness has steeped into Marvel, so I don't read Marvel anymore.
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