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  1. #31
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InformationGeek View Post
    Okay, now that just sounds weak. Come on man, "life is never fair"? If life is "never" fair in this universe like our own, then absolutely no superhero should ever ever ever ever ever ever come back and the impossible and unbelievable should not be possible to stop.
    Are you really calling for a major summer event that ends in a total reset? Have you any idea how unpopular that would be. Not only the fans, but the writers would be up in arms.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    True.

    But as the saying goes, "there are some things that only happen in bad fiction and real life."

    AS a narrative end to the story, it absolutely sucks. Yes, Stevil had the ability to make his own choices, but he was acting on completely wrong information, implanted without his knowledge. No one would say that Stevil was acting with informed consent
    I have to disagree. Stevil may have had a different background but there were plenty of times along the way where he could've thought better of his actions, could've developed a conscience, and stopped short of his vilest deeds. He may have not chosen the circumstances of his upbringing but he had free will throughout. Many people come from crazy, difficult backgrounds or are raised on hate but yet find it in themselves to rise above that. Stevil didn't. He embraced it. Ultimately, the fault lies with him.

    And the memories weren't implanted. This wasn't a story about mind control. Stevil was his own entity.

  3. #33
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    And the memories weren't implanted. This wasn't a story about mind control. Stevil was his own entity.
    Warped into being by Kobik to be a loyal Hydra Super Soldier. Which he was.

    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Are you really calling for a major summer event that ends in a total reset? Have you any idea how unpopular that would be. Not only the fans, but the writers would be up in arms.
    Sounds like business as usual .

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Are you really calling for a major summer event that ends in a total reset? Have you any idea how unpopular that would be. Not only the fans, but the writers would be up in arms.
    All throughout SE, the complaint/prediction was that it would all end in a Cosmic Cube reset and none of it would matter and therefore it was stupid to even care.

    Many posters were smugly confident in this.

    But once SE actually ended and events weren't reset, the complaint immediately became "How come it didn't end in a reset?!? That's so unfair!!"

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Warped into being by Kobik to be a loyal Hydra Super Soldier. Which he was.
    He was an entity with an entirely new history, not a brainwashed Steve. And he had free will to react to circumstances as he choose to.

  6. #36
    "Comic Book Reviewer" InformationGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Are you really calling for a major summer event that ends in a total reset? Have you any idea how unpopular that would be. Not only the fans, but the writers would be up in arms.
    Ah, no. Maybe just a better reason then just "the character could, but just doesn't want to." Maybe if Kobik sacrificed her human, sentient form (on purpose or by accident)of trying to undo most of the damage Evil Steve, but wasn't able to fix everything, that might work more. It would be a tragic, but perhaps fitting end for Kobik as she tries to fix everything she caused either directly or indirectly. Plus, you remove a character whose existence may just raise or cause problems about why she just won't do anything help.
    Opinions may vary in quality.

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  7. #37
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    He was an entity with an entirely new history, not a brainwashed Steve. And he had free will to react to circumstances as he choose to.
    But that entire new history, crafted by Kobik's reality-warping, informed the decisions he'd make so that he would lean in a way that served Hydra.

    Which it did.

  8. #38
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Warped into being by Kobik to be a loyal Hydra Super Soldier. Which he was.


    Sounds like business as usual .
    Reality itself was changed yes. Steve wasn't warped he was a product of that different reality. Red Skull used Kobik to make a new reality where Steve had been nurtured by evil, but Steve was still the same guy. That isn't warping anything that is an evil cradling. The weapon didn't change, where it was pointed changed.

  9. #39
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InformationGeek View Post
    Ah, no. Maybe just a better reason then just "the character could, but just doesn't want to." Maybe if Kobik sacrificed her human, sentient form (on purpose or by accident)of trying to undo most of the damage Evil Steve, but wasn't able to fix everything, that might work more. It would be a tragic, but perhaps fitting end for Kobik as she tries to fix everything she caused either directly or indirectly. Plus, you remove a character whose existence may just raise or cause problems about why she just won't do anything help.
    We do have a better reason than "dosen't want to", ignoring the facts won't help win the argument. And rewriting the story is pointless. We have this one.

  10. #40
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Reality itself was changed yes. Steve wasn't warped he was a product of that different reality. Red Skull used Kobik to make a new reality where Steve had been nurtured by evil, but Steve was still the same guy. That isn't warping anything that is an evil cradling. The weapon didn't change, where it was pointed changed.
    Which was thanks to Kobik's powers. HydraCap would not exist without Kobik.

  11. #41
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Which was thanks to Kobik's powers. HydraCap would not exist without Kobik.
    True, but that isnt the point is it? The point is that Hydra Cap is not even alternate reality Steve. He is our Steve but with different nurturing. And the point of the lack of reset is that he was indistinguishable to the world from our Steve, and as such nobody should ever be allowed in that position again, not even our Steve. As was fully teased out in Omega.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    I have to disagree. Stevil may have had a different background but there were plenty of times along the way where he could've thought better of his actions, could've developed a conscience, and stopped short of his vilest deeds. He may have not chosen the circumstances of his upbringing but he had free will throughout. Many people come from crazy, difficult backgrounds or are raised on hate but yet find it in themselves to rise above that. Stevil didn't. He embraced it. Ultimately, the fault lies with him.

    And the memories weren't implanted. This wasn't a story about mind control. Stevil was his own entity.
    What vile deeds, exactly? Because when you get right down to it, Stevil was your generic evil overlord. They dumped the responsibility of Vegas off on his council. His Hydra stuff was really generic more than anything else.

    And the memories Stevil was working from were false, artifically created. He wasn't mind controlled in the traditional sense, but he was incapable of making properly informed decisions

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    True, but that isnt the point is it? The point is that Hydra Cap is not even alternate reality Steve. He is our Steve but with different nurturing. And the point of the lack of reset is that he was indistinguishable to the world from our Steve, and as such nobody should ever be allowed in that position again, not even our Steve. As was fully teased out in Omega.
    What position, exactly? In charge of Shield? Or in charge of spearheading the defense of earth from an alien invasion?

    There was no gradual climb to Hydra fascism in the story. Just Hydra making a quick power grab while the world is distracted by an alien invasion.

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    What vile deeds, exactly? Because when you get right down to it, Stevil was your generic evil overlord. They dumped the responsibility of Vegas off on his council. His Hydra stuff was really generic more than anything else.

    And the memories Stevil was working from were false, artifically created. He wasn't mind controlled in the traditional sense, but he was incapable of making properly informed decisions
    Even if he could escape culpability for Vegas, which as the guy in charge he really can't, there was plenty of stuff done by Hydra which he did approve of and order, ranging from concentration camps to executions to invasions of non-hostile sovereign nations, none of which would have been in any way justified even had his memories of a different world been completely genuine. From the attempted murder of Jack Flag on, he's really proven to be a person who shouldn't have another day of freedom.

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    What position, exactly? In charge of Shield? Or in charge of spearheading the defense of earth from an alien invasion?

    There was no gradual climb to Hydra fascism in the story. Just Hydra making a quick power grab while the world is distracted by an alien invasion.
    As mentioned in this exact issue, as well as previously, the SHIELD Act had apparently made the head of SHIELD not just the boss of that organization, nor even just in charge of the defense of US/the Earth, but actually the (presumably meant to be temporary) head of the entire US government under martial law, usurping both POTUS and the roles of both the legislature and the judiciary. That would seem to have a been a few steps too far, and well beyond the usual powers of the Director of SHIELD.

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