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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member Old School Ollie 1962's Avatar
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    Cassie does have some astonishing, um, uncanny feats.

  2. #17
    The Tentacle God Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Wolf View Post
    She's DC's version of a mutant without saying the word.
    Quote Originally Posted by Old School Ollie 1962 View Post
    Cassie does have some astonishing, um, uncanny feats.
    But she's really just extra skilled though.

    Cuz DC is afraid of the "metahuman" word.
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  3. #18
    Captain Obvious big_adventure's Avatar
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    This is, as has been stated, Matt and Elektra versus Cass.

    This precise fight has come up before, as have the component pieces. Cass is a bit faster than Matt, as skilled, probably as strong a hitter (and it's splitting hairs anyway), and reads bodies as well or better. Hence, she's probably generally taking 7 or so out of 10 against Matt alone. She's better, stronger, faster than Elektra, enough to win at probably 9 of 10 there.

    Each of the three, alone, takes 10/10 from Bruce, as he's simply not fast enough to deal with any of them.

    But Cass taking both at once, after Bruce perishes with "I'm Ba-" on his lips? Yeah, I'm not seeing it. She might take one or two out of 10 against both - she's just THAT damn good. But not more than that.

  4. #19
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Bruce isn't completely worthless, here. It's not like the fight is some bizarre superspeed blur he can't follow.

    Having said that, it's Cass versus two people that normally give her a good fight, with Bruce added in to try to run interference on one. The problem there is that Bruce being able to get in the way means he stalls one of them only briefly thanks to magical pressure point strikes coupled with the blitz (if they were just hitting him...Bruce eats damage like a pro, and would manage to hold in for a while).

    And then, yeah, it's Cass versus two people who give her a good fight while Bruce takes a sand-nap on the arena floor. Not looking good.

    Side note 1 - while Matt's senses are superior to Cass, going by feats her body-reading combat precog is superior to his.

    Side note 2 - regarding Cass/Meta/Etc.

    Marvel and DC have a long history of people with amazing training doing impossible things. We call Bruce Wayne 'Comic Book Peak Human', but those first two words are there for a reason: the stuff Bruce does would be considered 'metahuman' in our world. It's flat out impossible. The only reason there's weirdness about Cass doing better is because Bruce is billed as 'Peak Human' in the DC universe.

    Marvel has chi - with training, non-metas can learn to harness this and perform in the meta territory, Shang Chi and Iron Fist (even without his magical inner power he got from the dragon) being perfect examples. Marvel also allows for the idea that amazing ninja training can produce metahuman-level results, Daredevil and Elektra being more examples of this. Marvel also has quasi-magical martial arts, where we have people like Stick and Stone of the Chaste doing all kinds of weirdness, like draining life force and the like.

    DC, on the other hand, seems to be allergic to the word chi. It gets mentioned back in the old Richard Dragon series, and we briefly see Shiva do...something...to bring Cass back to life, something that actually exhausts Shiva (it's not some Chinese medicinal technique, it's 'punch Cass in the chest, light show, Cass lives again, Shiva is exhausted'), but DC doesn't seem to like it, otherwise. The writers cleverly get around the aversion to chi by not using the word with regards to Shiva, but it does seem to be weird that it never comes up. So why does DC not have chi-empowered martial artists when they're pretty ubiquitous in popular entertainment?

    Batman.

    If there is such a thing in DC, one would assume Batman would know it. He has the training, etc. However, DC clings to the idea that Bruce is 'just a human who has trained himself to the peak, who can still take on metahumans, look how awesome humans can be!'. No magic powers. No enhancements. So they don't WANT him having chi to amp himself into the meta territory. And if Batman can't have it, nobody can, because they'd be clearly superior to him in martial art knowledge, no ambiguity, nothing (not just superior, but leagues ahead of him).

    So, DC goes with the idea that 'Sufficiently insane training can provide insane results' (which isn't unique to DC, as people have noted - throughout mythology and popular entertainment you see this idea, again and again).

    Cass isn't the first in DC, either. Richard Dragon has some insane feats, including stuff like 'fights by using sonar'. Not 'by hearing', but 'actually using sonar'. And there's also Karate Kid, of course: pure skill, that. Batman, himself, does ridiculous stuff. Shiva, in the more modern, post-crisis version.

    Cass?

    She trained more than Bruce, more rigorously and more focused purely on fighting (Bruce does...well, EVERYTHING). And she did it from when she was a baby, whereas Bruce started...what, when he was 12? Much later?

    That's setting aside the weird idea that DC has that her abilities like body-reading spring partly from her genetics (her mom and her mom's sister could do it, so why can't she? Very odd logic).
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 09-14-2017 at 04:59 AM.
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  5. #20
    Astonishing Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    In sheer hth, Matt holds Cass while Elektra murders Bruce. then they team up for the beatdown. Celebratory sex after to gloat

  6. #21
    Captain Obvious big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    In sheer hth, Matt holds Cass while Elektra murders Bruce. then they team up for the beatdown. Celebratory sex after to gloat
    Send in my victory wenches.

  7. #22
    Ultimate Member Assam's Avatar
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    Clearly I was underestimating Elektra in my initial post based on this consensus.
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  8. #23
    Captain Obvious big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Clearly I was underestimating Elektra in my initial post based on this consensus.
    Seems so: she's a confirmed bullet timer with top tier combat, stealth and tracking skills and zero compunction about killing fools.

    The totem here is:

    Cass
    ...
    Matt
    ...
    Elektra
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ...
    Bruce

    Now, Bruce is by far the most intelligent, and is a brilliant detective, comic book level super-scientist, billionaire and genius industrialist. He's just not on the same tier as the other three in combat.

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    This could be close with gear mainly because DD's more weak to some of Bruce's junk than others. If Cass could hold them momentarily Bruce could do the whole sonics/flash bangs/gas thing to really even things up. The Bat types have special masks to protect against that sort of thing and but for occasional retcons DD and Elektra wear homespun garments not even kevlar (though as noted DD has an occasional armour thing). Elektra doesn't even wear shoes!

    But its not, so eh. Easy win

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    DD's more weak to some of Bruce's junk than others.
    Poor choice of words Dork.

  11. #26
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    ...where's my Gundam pic again...
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers."
    - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move."
    - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman."
    - Pendaran

  12. #27
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    Just adding my voice to the chorus here. Sharp's assessment about the body reading is correct, and I agree with gear the bats might have a shot.

  13. #28
    Voice of the Authorities Cleric of Hell's Brigade's Avatar
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    Ehh, I would give Cass better odds than people have been. She does have a utility belt with sonics, yes? That should allow her to play merry hell with Daredevil and potentially take him out quickly, leaving just Elektra to fight (after she knocks Bruce out).
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  14. #29
    Astonishing Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    It's hth only

    And besides I don't think Cass ever used sonics. Flash bangs once I think.Batarangs (normal ones) a few times . Her whole shtick was that she liked to get up close and personal
    Last edited by The Dork Knight; 09-15-2017 at 05:53 AM.

  15. #30
    Ultimate Member Assam's Avatar
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    I think there's enough of a gap that 1 v 1, Cass would take 10/10 against Matt or Elektra in H2H. If the two were just independent fighters, I might give her decent odds against both at once, but taking teamwork into account, she only takes a couple out of 10.

    Were gadgets allowed, the Bats would stomp. It took half his toys, but Bruce was able to stalemate Cass in their big fight. Cass might actually be able to take the majority solo with gadgets. The skill gap between her and the Marvels is still there, and while gadgets aren't her specialty, she's proven proficient enough with batarangs, and because of the brief instances of her using flash bangs and some other stuff, along with her childhood training to use any weapon, that we have no reason to believe she shouldn't be able to use her tools effectively, if necessary. Hell, give her the Kasumi gear and she stomps.

    Basically, there's a reason H2H was specified.
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