View Poll Results: Should Black Wally Get A Name Change?

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    73 65.77%
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  1. #151
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I know but the point still stands even there. For example, Miles and Anya are currently appearing in the newest Spider-Man cartoon. Also, Static had an entire animated series devoted to him in the 2000s, which naturally featured a plurality of characters of color. So, yeah, I think it just shows that DC wouldn't have to purposefully alter existing characters to appeal to a demographic if they just had faith that their existing POC characters would appeal to audiences.
    What are the chances of Miles starring in the next Spidey film (IOW, no Peter at all)? I wouldn't say impossible, but probably close to minuscule. Also, I was talking about supporting casts (for live-action purposes, Wally is part of Barry's). Starting superheroes are a different story, though, since we have quite a few legacy characters that fill the bill. In those cases, it would make damn good sense to use them before changing the racial identity of a character.

    In the case of Will Smith and Laurence Fishburne being cast, it was probably just the case that they are two really fantastic actors.
    There are a lot of white actors just as good, if not better, than those two. WB wanted a prominent black face and that's why they were changed (and, in the case of Smith, he's a box office draw).

    But in cases where the changes aren't organically arrived at, it doesn't really mirror true diversity. If we change Wally or Deadshot, that doesn't change either of them into strong examples if diversity. Comic book Wally and Deadshot are still white or at least still have decades' worth of comics portraying them as white. So, it doesn't mean DC is suddenly more "hip," it just means they dont have faith that their existing or new minority characters could appeal to the general audience.
    Nobody cares beyond our hobby, though. If Wally or Deadshot are changed, the furor over it is going to be very small. Try changing the Trinity (or any iconic minority character in regard to mainstream audiences), however...
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  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    What are the chances of Miles starring in the next Spidey film (IOW, no Peter at all)? I wouldn't say impossible, but probably close to minuscule. Also, I was talking about supporting casts (for live-action purposes, Wally is part of Barry's). Starting superheroes are a different story, though, since we have quite a few legacy characters that fill the bill. In those cases, it would make damn good sense to use them before changing the racial identity of a character.
    Miles chances of heading up a Spider-Man movie without Peter at all? Those are probably pretty small. But of him being a big part of the franchise going forward? I'd say there's a pretty big chance of that. I'm almost certain he'll be featured prominently in one of the upcoming films.

    Plus, in that department, Marvel doesn't really need to go around changing things to have a prominent African American lead, since you know, they already have the Black Panther film in development.

    There are a lot of white actors just as good, if not better, than those two. WB wanted a prominent black face and that's why they were changed (and, in the case of Smith, he's a box office draw).
    So they used a supporting Superman character who's barely there and a B-list Batman villain? Why not just use Black Spider or Bronze Tiger or one of the countless past African American members of the SS? Also, wouldn't Oscar winning Viola Davis as Amanda Waller count as a strong black character? Why not make John Henry Irons a major supporting Superman player in the DCEU? He'd be more of a presence than Perry and they jumped the gun on the whole death arc anyway.

    For that matter, why not make John Stewart a prominent Green Lantern the DCEU (though that is happening)? Why not green light a Titans film with Bumblebee and Mal Duncan in major roles? Why not do the same for a Blue Beetle movie with a young Jaime Reyes being mentored by Ted Kord? Why not make a Black Lightning or Static film? Or even a Mr. Terrific film with Michael Holt assuming the identity from Terry Sloane ala the MCU Ant-Man movie?

    There are so many great characters that DC could use if representation was their only concern. So I'm just gonna go with the theory that Will Smith proved to be a better fit for the role than others and wasn't JUST cast for such a reason.

    Nobody cares beyond our hobby, though. If Wally or Deadshot are changed, the furor over it is going to be very small. Try changing the Trinity (or any iconic minority character in regard to mainstream audiences), however...
    I wouldn't say that. DC did get enough backlash to backtrack and bring back OG Wally after all.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 10-11-2017 at 10:20 AM.
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  3. #153
    Amazing Member Tenzel Kim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthAndJustice View Post
    "Walter" wouldn't be a retcon. People can legally change their names. Wally (Flash III) could change his, because he thinks it's absurd for two speedsters to have literally the same name, and out of respect for Wally (Kid Flash).
    Well, as speedsters they don't really have the same name as one is called Kid Flash and the other Flash (which causes a different same-name problem). They really shouldn't be using their real names when they are out doing their speedstering.

    Anyway, I'm surprised noone has suggested Willy as that would go perfectly with the nickname of one of his teammates in the Titans

  4. #154
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Miles chances of heading up a Spider-Man movie without Peter at all? Those are probably pretty small. But of him being a big part of the franchise going forward? I'd say there's a pretty big chance of that. I'm almost certain he'll be featured prominently in one of the upcoming films.
    No disagreement there.

    Plus, in that department, Marvel doesn't really need to go around changing things to have a prominent African American lead, since you know, they already have the Black Panther film in development.
    First, please don't use "you know" or "um" or anything like that in your posts from now, if you don't mind. It reads very condescendingly. As for your point, having a Black Panther movie in production doesn't mean anything if another Marvel film has no minority characters that usually features white characters in the comics. One thing Marvel does have in its favor: it was created in the '60s, not '30s like DC, so it was able to diversify their lineup more easily than the older company.

    So they used a supporting Superman character who's barely there and a B-list Batman villain? Why not just use Black Spider or Bronze Tiger or one of the countless past African American members of the SS? Also, wouldn't Oscar winning Viola Davis as Amanda Waller count as a strong black character? Why not make John Henry Irons a major supporting Superman player in the DCEU? He'd be more of a presence than Perry and they jumped the gun on the whole death arc anyway.
    I'm assuming WB had so many characters that could be featured, so they picked and choose the ones that made sense to the story. After that, if there seemed like there were too many white characters, that's when they might change the race of one or more of them.

    For that matter, why not make John Stewart a prominent Green Lantern the DCEU (though that is happening)? Why not green light a Titans film with Bumblebee and Mal Duncan in major roles? Why not do the same for a Blue Beetle movie with a young Jaime Reyes being mentored by Ted Kord? Why not make a Black Lightning or Static film? Or even a Mr. Terrific film with Michael Holt assuming the identity from Terry Sloane ala the MCU Ant-Man movie?
    I'm all for it.

    There are so many great characters that DC could use if representation was their only concern. So I'm just gonna go with the theory that Will Smith proved to be a better fit for the role than others and wasn't JUST cast for his race.
    Wait. That's not what I meant (and I'm fairly sure you know that). Any time a film company can get a Will Smith, you grab it and worry about what to do with him later. Now you have to find a character that he could play and that works with the script in hand. Is he good for Bronze Tiger? Probably not, but Deadshot would work better. None of us knows exactly what is in their minds, of course, but I'm assuming that's their logic when dealing with these issues.

    I wouldn't say that. DC did get enough backlash to backtrack and bring back OG Wally after all.
    I wasn't talking about DC. I was referring to WB, since they're the ones that produce the films and TV shows. I also said the average person outside our hobby (comic books) doesn't care about changing the race of characters they are not familiar with (and that's true).
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  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    As for your point, having a Black Panther movie in production doesn't mean anything if another Marvel film has no minority characters that usually features white characters in the comics. One thing Marvel does have in its favor: it was created in the '60s, not '30s like DC, so it was able to diversify their lineup more easily than the older company.
    But that's not the case. Even if we don't count the characters that aren't people of color in the comics, there are still several prominent characters of color in the MCU other than T'Challa: Rhodey, Falcon, Wong, Luke Cage, Misty Knight, Claire Temple, Robbie Reyes, Cloak, and a bunch more. Technically, T'Challa won't even be the first black protagonist in the MCU, as Luke already beat him to it. And of course, I would like to see more diversity. Who wouldn't? But that's the thing, DC and Marvel have such a wonderfully diverse cast of characters from the comics themselves. They should use them.

    Also, DC being the older company (though DC's not even much older) I don't think is really a reason for lack of diverse characters in the comics compared to Marvel. Marvel may have gotten heavy into the superhero biz in the 60s, but they were both around in the 60s. In fact, though, I don't really think DC has a lack of diverse characters as opposed to Marvel. They've both built up very diverse casts of characters. They just need to have faith in the characters they've created and promote them to the general audience.

    I'm assuming WB had so many characters that could be featured, so they picked and choose the ones that made sense to the story. After that, if there seemed like there were too many white characters, that's when they might change the race of one or more of them.
    I don't think that's really an issue unless there's a dispute regarding the rights to certain characters. As far as I know, DC doesn't really have that problem with WB in regards to the majority of their characters.

    Wait. That's not what I meant (and I'm fairly sure you know that). Any time a film company can get a Will Smith, you grab it and worry about what to do with him later. Now you have to find a character that he could play and that works with the script in hand. Is he good for Bronze Tiger? Probably not, but Deadshot would work better. None of us knows exactly what is in their minds, of course, but I'm assuming that's their logic when dealing with these issues.
    Not saying that he was bad as Deadshot, but why wasn't Bronze Tiger, in your opinion, a good fit for Will? In fact, the way Tom King writes Ben, I'd say he actually acts like Will Smith.

    I wasn't talking about DC. I was referring to WB, since they're the ones that produce the films and TV shows. I also said the average person outside our hobby (comic books) doesn't care about changing the race of characters they are not familiar with (and that's true).
    There are a few instances in which people actually have been justifiably angry at changing the race of characters otherwise unknown to the general audience. For example, when Marvel cast Tilda Swinton, a white woman, to play the Ancient One, who is in the comics an Asian man.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 10-11-2017 at 06:09 PM.
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  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Also, DC being the older company (though DC's not even much older) I don't think is really a reason for lack of diverse characters in the comics compared to Marvel. Marvel may have gotten heavy into the superhero biz in the 60s, but they were both around in the 60s. In fact, though, I don't really think DC has a lack of diverse characters as opposed to Marvel. They've both built up very diverse casts of characters. They just need to have faith in the characters they've created and promote them to the general audience.
    First DC has to have a STAFF willing to do the work and that has been an issue. Beyond tokenism and plot devices and so on. If Duke is being trained by Batman-I need to see it not one page cameos in the main book. We saw Tim, Jason & Dick get training and working aside Batman. That is how they GREW-not one panel spots.

    Second FANS have to be willing to accept these guys. We did not see that in the PAST. We saw backlash to Jason & Jaime & Kyle and ESPECIALLY John Stewart. Funny how Marvel's antics stopped that.

    Third-for supporters PROVE you care

    What message do you send to folks for all that support to Cassandra, Steel, Jaime and toss in OG Wally & Stephanie Brown-they get ERASED? The most successful female of color at Dc is Cassandra Cain. Ms Marvel won't catch her solo issue count for 3 years.

    Why should I invest MONEY in Cyborg when DC acts like they don't want to see growth with him? Or any POC including Black Wally? History shows they will get sent back behind the bus no matter who popular they get. Looking at you John Stewart.

    Marvel caught HELL and still haven't back down as many old favorites return. DC has to get like that instead of ticking off a fan base with a race change. Maybe Dark Matter line will finally stop that.

  7. #157
    Amazing Member Dr. Ellingham's Avatar
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    The race-bending question is really irrelevant. It's already done. There are two Wally Wests.

    Until DC decides there should only be one again, and one of them is shuffled off - to a different Earth, I'd guess.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Ellingham View Post
    The race-bending question is really irrelevant. It's already done. There are two Wally Wests.

    Until DC decides there should only be one again, and one of them is shuffled off - to a different Earth, I'd guess.
    Maybe that happens one day like how Marvel got rid of the extended Hulk-family. Only in this case it's NuWally that gets booted off to that other Earth where everyone (save Batman) were race-bent.

  9. #159
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    But that's not the case. Even if we don't count the characters that aren't people of color in the comics, there are still several prominent characters of color in the MCU other than T'Challa: Rhodey, Falcon, Wong, Luke Cage, Misty Knight, Claire Temple, Robbie Reyes, Cloak, and a bunch more. Technically, T'Challa won't even be the first black protagonist in the MCU, as Luke already beat him to it. And of course, I would like to see more diversity. Who wouldn't? But that's the thing, DC and Marvel have such a wonderfully diverse cast of characters from the comics themselves. They should use them.
    I'm not in any way disagreeing with you. If they're around, use them!

    Also, DC being the older company (though DC's not even much older) I don't think is really a reason for lack of diverse characters in the comics compared to Marvel. Marvel may have gotten heavy into the superhero biz in the 60s, but they were both around in the 60s. In fact, though, I don't really think DC has a lack of diverse characters as opposed to Marvel. They've both built up very diverse casts of characters. They just need to have faith in the characters they've created and promote them to the general audience.
    I was talking specifically of characters and their main supporting casts created before Marvel was created. Characters created after the '50s, yes, that's a different story. As for diverse characters, I think both companies have a ton, FWIW.

    I don't think that's really an issue unless there's a dispute regarding the rights to certain characters. As far as I know, DC doesn't really have that problem with WB in regards to the majority of their characters.
    I'm not following you here. If WB wants to use particular characters they feel work for a story, but they happen to be white, that's where they might do some race bending either for more diversity or because they have an African-American actor they need to find a spot for. BTW, do you know how many TV shows and movies that have been adapted from books that have done the same thing over the years? Countless. The comics industry didn't in any way invent this phenomena.

    Not saying that he was bad as Deadshot, but why wasn't Bronze Tiger, in your opinion, a good fit for Will? In fact, the way Tom King writes Ben, I'd say he actually acts like Will Smith.
    I envision a bigger guy (physically) than Smith to play him, that's all.

    There are a few instances in which people actually have been justifiably angry at changing the race of characters otherwise unknown to the general audience. For example, when Marvel cast Tilda Swinton, a white woman, to play the Ancient One, who is in the comics an Asian man.
    Yes, but the people who cared were comic-book readers (which is a small group). Beyond that, nobody cared because Doctor Strange wasn't in any way iconic outside of comics before the film. If you changed the character's race or gender in any upcoming movies, however, then you might get an uproar beyond the comics community.
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  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Yes, but the people who cared were comic-book readers (which is a small group). Beyond that, nobody cared because Doctor Strange wasn't in any way iconic outside of comics before the film. If you changed the character's race or gender in any upcoming movies, however, then you might get an uproar beyond the comics community.
    Well, there is the Asian-American actors who have pointed out how often Asian characters (or characters that are supposed to be Asian) get cast to fit white actors... like say Ghost in the Shell, or indeed the Ancient One. And there was that debacle over that actor who stepped down from the new Hellboy movie because he was white but the character was Asian. The actors don't march in the streets about it, but they are pointing out that whitewashing it is a problem for them.
    Heck, Cloe Bennet, had to change her name because she is actually half-chinese and had to change it to avoid getting type-cast as secondary characters.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Well, there is the Asian-American actors who have pointed out how often Asian characters (or characters that are supposed to be Asian) get cast to fit white actors... like say Ghost in the Shell, or indeed the Ancient One. And there was that debacle over that actor who stepped down from the new Hellboy movie because he was white but the character was Asian. The actors don't march in the streets about it, but they are pointing out that whitewashing it is a problem for them.
    Heck, Cloe Bennet, had to change her name because she is actually half-chinese and had to change it to avoid getting type-cast as secondary characters.
    Okay, you're talking about something different now. I was talking about the reactionary stance some fans have when their favorite characters are altered for the big and little screens, not about the other political/cultural reasons like the ones you just stated. Let me state it this way: if the Ancient One had been a white male in the comics, there would have been no problems with Tilda Swinton's casting beyond the comic-book crowd, right?
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  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    I'm not following you here. If WB wants to use particular characters they feel work for a story, but they happen to be white, that's where they might do some race bending either for more diversity or because they have an African-American actor they need to find a spot for. BTW, do you know how many TV shows and movies that have been adapted from books that have done the same thing over the years? Countless. The comics industry didn't in any way invent this phenomena.
    That's the point, though. It doesn't have to be only originally white characters. In actuality, many would probably welcome them utilizing more characters of color from the comics.

    I envision a bigger guy (physically) than Smith to play him, that's all.
    Ever see Chris Evans before he was cast as Steve Rogers? Actors tend to bulk up for those roles.

    Yes, but the people who cared were comic-book readers (which is a small group). Beyond that, nobody cared because Doctor Strange wasn't in any way iconic outside of comics before the film. If you changed the character's race or gender in any upcoming movies, however, then you might get an uproar beyond the comics community.
    It wasn't just comic fans. A lot of people were upset. It even got coverage in major media outlets. https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/...tion/93416130/
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 10-12-2017 at 03:32 PM.
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  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    That's the point, though. It doesn't have to be only originally white characters. In actuality, many would probably welcome them utilizing more characters of color from the comics. And in a lot of cases, the characters in movies and TV have been so warped to their core that they might as well be different characters anyway.

    And it just seems that it is nothing more than a bandaid on the larger issue of representation in media and doesn't really create a permanent place for characters of color in the longterm narrative.
    But there are only so many characters a movie or TV show can have for budget constraints and film time, so the producers pick the characters that fit best for the story. At that point, unless the character is iconic enough to the average Joe and Jo on the street like a Bruce Wayne or Peter Parker, they're probably not going to worry about changing the color of a character's skin. Does it mean they always pick the right characters for a story? No. Does it mean they could use an established minority character instead? Yes. Just trying to illustrate their thinking, that's all - whatever your concerns, they're not race bending just for the hell of it or to annoy fans.

    Ever see Chris Evans before he was cast as Steve Rogers? Actors tend to bulk up for those roles.
    True, but I'm not sure Will Smith would want to do that at his age and at his stage of his career. With that said, I concede it wouldn't have been an impossibility. Question: other than WB wanting to use Deadshot instead of Bronze Tiger for creative reasons, what other reason would they not have used BT?

    It wasn't just comic fans. A lot of people were upset. It even got coverage in major media outlets. https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/...tion/93416130/
    Zee, once again, nobody cared about the change beyond comic-book fans for the reasons I stated because the average movie goer never heard of, forget about the Ancient One, Dr. Strange himself before the movie. How can you care about a character if you don't know anything about that character to begin with? The non-comics readers you're referring to who were upset about the change had other reasons for their anger (political, cultural, more employment for Asian actors - I have no personal objections to these reasons, BTW), but it had zip to do about what most people on this site complain about when race bending occurs.
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  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    But there are only so many characters a movie or TV show can have for budget constraints and film time, so the producers pick the characters that fit best for the story. At that point, unless the character is iconic enough to the average Joe and Jo on the street like a Bruce Wayne or Peter Parker, they're probably not going to worry about changing the color of a character's skin. Does it mean they always pick the right characters for a story? No. Does it mean they could use an established minority character instead? Yes. Just trying to illustrate their thinking, that's all - whatever your concerns, they're not race bending just for the hell of it or to annoy fans.
    But they are the ones who choose which characters get focus. They have the discretion to say "you know what, let's include John Henry Irons or Mal Duncan here and cut out [insert character here]." Of course there are constraints from the budget and story. But, again, they're the ones deciding how to manage the budget and which direction the story takes. If they have to drop a few white guys so they can make room for more diverse cast of characters, then nobody would really blame them. We could just as easily have had Randy Robertson as Peter's friend in high school, as opposed to Harry Osborn or Ned Leeds.

    True, but I'm not sure Will Smith would want to do that at his age and at his stage of his career. With that said, I concede it wouldn't have been an impossibility. Question: other than WB wanting to use Deadshot instead of Bronze Tiger for creative reasons, what other reason would they not have used BT?
    That's the point. There was pretty much no reason not to use BT, even with Will as Deadshot. I would rather have seen him than Killer Croc anyway.

    Zee, once again, nobody cared about the change beyond comic-book fans for the reasons I stated because the average movie goer never heard of, forget about the Ancient One, Dr. Strange himself before the movie.
    The article I posted in the post you quoted has several quotes from sources that are decidedly not just any average comic book fan.

    "By showing that Strange expected the Ancient One to fit an Asian stereotype, the filmmakers seem to be making light of the controversy, and expecting praise from viewers for defying that same stereotype," wrote Bustle.

    “Given the dearth of Asian roles, there was no reason a monk in Nepal could not be Asian,” Rob Chan president of the Asian American Media Group said in a statement blasting the casting.

    "This, in the end, is exactly what Hollywood’s problem is with Asian people: they continually allow Asian stories, characters, and experiences be reinterpreted by white lenses, then they call that progress," criticized feminist geek site The Mary Sue.
    Scott Derrickson himself had to come out and defend himself to the press and even Tilda Swinton had to make a statement about it. Obviously, they weren't just responding to a small group of comic fans. They were addressing the larger community's concerns over what was, essentially, whitewashing.

    But, overall, I'm just gonna agree to disagree.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 10-12-2017 at 05:52 PM.
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  15. #165
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    At first, I couldn't believe what they had done to Wally when they introduced him in the N52. I gave him a chance, but he was a total different character, no big resemblances with his previous self. Now that the original Wally is back, it's easier to welcome N52 Wally, and his differences with the original became a possitive thing. I'm really enjoying him in the Deathstroke title. I actually like some of the alternatives some people have given to the name issue, a derivative like Walls or Wally Allen (Leaving behind his father's last name since he's a villain) I found them to be interesting choices. I wouldn't call it an important problem right now, since one is appearing in Titans and the other in The Flash (at least last time I saw a preview of the title) and Deathstroke. They only team up ocassionaly. Still, if DC plans to have them becoming closer, maybe having New Wally being apprentice of the Original Wally, it will become a confusing matter having them with the same name and last name, and there's a couple of time that you can joke about them sharing names before it becomes dull

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