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  1. #16
    Incredible Member ekrolo2's Avatar
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    Isn't the whole "I was battle hardened back when you were...!" a thing in fiction. I know for a fact I've seen non-WW stuff get called dirt or something along the same lines when the mythical, ancient bad ass wants to prove how mythical and bad ass they are to the "babies".

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    Eh, I'm not really of the mind that if the movie uses it, it should automatically be used in comics too. The codex thing in Man of Steel was a mess and I hear that they're also making Steppenwolf into Darkseid's nephew instead of his uncle. Some thing, no matter how small should stay the same in order to mainstain the vision of the creator. The way Perez did it, that's the way to do it.
    Perez wasn't the creator though, Marston was. And while Marston created the clay origin, there is some evidence that could be interpreted as him wanting to imply that Hercules was her father without having to directly state it and make it all about her dad. I don't think Morrison pulled that from nowhere.

    Besides, the daughter of Zeus thing was way less controversial than the Amazons. Helps that it actually had a purpose in the story and would be easier to ignore if writers didn't want to address it. Had Azzarello focused on the demigod origin as the only scandalous thing to spark controversy, and left the Amazons alone, I think the New 52 version wouldn't have crashed and burned as quickly as it did.

  3. #18
    Incredible Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Perez wasn't the creator though, Marston was. And while Marston created the clay origin, there is some evidence that could be interpreted as him wanting to imply that Hercules was her father without having to directly state it and make it all about her dad. I don't think Morrison pulled that from nowhere.

    Besides, the daughter of Zeus thing was way less controversial than the Amazons. Helps that it actually had a purpose in the story and would be easier to ignore if writers didn't want to address it. Had Azzarello focused on the demigod origin as the only scandalous thing to spark controversy, and left the Amazons alone, I think the New 52 version wouldn't have crashed and burned as quickly as it did.
    My only issue with her actually being the daughter of Zeus, is that its hardly a unique thing in Greek Mythology. And with the Rebirth Amazons, it brings up the question of how they view men coming to their island.

  4. #19
    Invincible Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    If they ever wanted to do a twist in the future now that they've introduced this Hercules...say HE'S really her father.
    They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son. - Jor-El.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    That was DC's fault for not being more forceful in their one edict. Maybe I could understand it a little bit if we're talking about a writer who guaranteed insta-sales like a Morrison or today's Snyder. It would still be pandering, but I could at least kind of understand the pandering, and even then from a narrative point of view I'd have still considered it sloppy. But there wasn't even that element to it.
    Are you saying that had Rebirth returned WW to her original maternal clay birth it would be "pandering" and "sloppy"? But, the Zeus-daddy origin isn't?

  6. #21
    Invincible Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    No, I'm saying DC placing an edict, but allowing their hand-picked writer to cause so much confusion as to its authenticity in this continuity for an entire run is what was sloppy (I still stand by what I've said in the past, that from my point of view the onus was always on the story to staunchly retcon out the current origin lest my assumption it stayed put, but all the same it obviously caused lots of confusion among readers, and I can at least understand why). It has nothing to do with which origin they went with, just being clear in which one was the one going forward.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 10-12-2017 at 03:46 PM.
    They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son. - Jor-El.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    No, I'm saying DC placing an edict, but allowing their hand-picked writer to cause so much confusion as to its authenticity in this continuity for an entire run is what was sloppy (I still stand by what I've said in the past, that from my point of view the onus was always on the story to staunchly retcon out the current origin lest my assumption it stayed put, but all the same it obviously caused lots of confusion among readers, and I can at least understand why). It has nothing to do with which origin they went with, just being clear in which one was the one going forward.
    When are DC's big continuity retcons not sloppy?

    I get what you are saying about being clear - in this case, I'm kind of glad Rucka wasn't. As a big anti-Zeus WW fan, I can still read and enjoy Year One for years to come, because they chose not to mention Zeus.

    But, it does make it messy given that Johns, apparently, insisted on keeping Zeus and Jason - but, that sloppy decision is his.

  8. #23
    Invincible Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    This is the problem with Dc. It always doesn’t know what Diana should be. It should be made clear. Rucka’s run made strong hints of clay. Now this. She needs a editor
    Where did Rucka make "strong hints" regarding a firm return to the "made of clay" origin?
    Wasn't it in Azzarello/Chiang's run that Diana thought the "made of clay" story was real (though other Amazons knew better) until the truth of her true birth was revealed to her?

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    If they ever wanted to do a twist in the future now that they've introduced this Hercules...say HE'S really her father.
    I still think Hercules should have been the father. He's already a big part of the WW lore, and the myth their subverting (with him and Hippolyta) is the myth Hippolyta is most famous for otherwise. It's also less cliche than using Zeus. Why didn't they? I think him getting killed and leaving her his estate would have even more impact if he was a dad she never knew who wanted to impart something to her, and the confused emotions that would result from that for her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    When are DC's big continuity retcons not sloppy?

    I get what you are saying about being clear - in this case, I'm kind of glad Rucka wasn't. As a big anti-Zeus WW fan, I can still read and enjoy Year One for years to come, because they chose not to mention Zeus.

    But, it does make it messy given that Johns, apparently, insisted on keeping Zeus and Jason - but, that sloppy decision is his.
    I agree that I appreciate Rucka for not focusing on it, but I think he could have spared a page or two in the run to clarify that the Rebirth Hippolyta also slept with Zeus. I think fans are making this way more confusing than it actually is or needs to be due to how transparent everything is from the creators, but it probably would have helped.

    But whatever, I got a year long run with Barbara Ann essentially being the deutragonist and a killer revamp of Dr. Cyber, so I'm fine with letting all this other nonsense wait.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I still think Hercules should have been the father. He's already a big part of the WW lore, and the myth their subverting (with him and Hippolyta) is the myth Hippolyta is most famous for otherwise. It's also less cliche than using Zeus. Why didn't they? I think him getting killed and leaving her his estate would have even more impact if he was a dad she never knew who wanted to impart something to her, and the confused emotions that would result from that for her.
    I agree that Heracles as her father would be much less cliche - but, much would depend on how it's handled. I don't like this aspect of Morrison's Earth One, and I suspect I would side with Azzarello in notmliking what DiDio had planned for nu52.

    I agree that I appreciate Rucka for not focusing on it, but I think he could have spared a page or two in the run to clarify that the Rebirth Hippolyta also slept with Zeus. I think fans are making this way more confusing than it actually is or needs to be due to how transparent everything is from the creators, but it probably would have helped.
    For DC's continuity, it would have cleared things up. But, for me, the less Zeus-daddy is mentioned, the better. DC keeps wanting to redefine WW in male-centric ways, I'm glad Rucka ignored it. It's their mess, let them deal with it.

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Where did Rucka make "strong hints" regarding a firm return to the "made of clay" origin?
    Wasn't it in Azzarello/Chiang's run that Diana thought the "made of clay" story was real (though other Amazons knew better) until the truth of her true birth was revealed to her?
    That was retcon by Rucka. She was told she was Zeus’s daughter on the false island. Also , Diana knows to origins. One the daughter of a affair and the other clay origin which as Rucka’s Hippoltya. New 52 amazons and paradise were false. Meaning when she learned of the Zeus was a lie. Rucka speaks of Perez’s run, also he said when the lie is revealed we know what her origin is. So yea he well for clay. Why else have two different Hippoltya. Form new 52 and rebirth?


    Diana even says in rebirth when she was with Harley she was made from clay

    BA32C342-E552-4AFC-B489-44349CAAF58C.jpg

    Why else make make the blind Hippoltya fake and the false island. Where her origin was revealed. I dislike the Zeus origin. All of it gives where her powers came from and the whole male center plot of Azz was disrespect. You can have a male character but when you make most of the females unless and pawns it’s a slap in the face. Diana n Ed’s a father and her no one speaks of male heroes that don’t have fathers .I mean if you want Diana to have a father fine but it’s dumb to have it be Zeus if you think having a father makes her hunan. Why not have Hippoltya fall in love with a man that wash ashore but he died
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 10-13-2017 at 06:23 AM.
    Please sign this so we can at least show DC we want Legend of Wonder Woman part 2.

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  12. #27
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    You know, it really says something about how obsessed modern writing is with bloodline importance that apparently the only story writers seem interested in telling now is who Diana is or isn't related to. I remember this got really bad in the 2000s were DC had the children of villains become villains themselves or claim they could potentially become villains because that's the only story you can tell with such characters

  13. #28
    Astonishing Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    To me for a while Dc doesn’t care about Dian. Why else have this much unrelated storylines. We had a storyline to fix this and now Dc is messing up. Dc will always screw up Diana . I don’t mind the Jason arc but to add confusion again is a dumb way to go on. We need Diana to have connecting storyline lines to build up her world. We keep having this retcon that will never happen. What can you aspect form Dc. They will screw up her no matter what happening with her. Writers can pretty much make their own storyline and smoke it more of a elsewhere story


    Sadly even if the Jason arc is good. I don’t true Dc to do any good connections once the next storyline. They will not even try to keep things straight. Just keep the same terrible thing. I’m
    Not saying the artist or writers or mad rather the lack of having her storylines connected and not mention often what has happened and how it connects to how Diana feels and does .
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 10-13-2017 at 06:26 AM.
    Please sign this so we can at least show DC we want Legend of Wonder Woman part 2.

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  14. #29
    Spectacular Member TruthAndJustice's Avatar
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    My hope is that we'll discover that both Diana AND Jason were made from clay. (Clay animated by Zeus's powers, whatever, but the clay thing is a unique idea and should be, um, solidified.)

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member sakuyamons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthAndJustice View Post
    My hope is that we'll discover that both Diana AND Jason were made from clay. (Clay animated by Zeus's powers, whatever, but the clay thing is a unique idea and should be, um, solidified.)
    If they do that, I’ll come back to the title, to be honest.

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