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  1. #61
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Dredd View Post
    I am just glad he is actually using Morrison's run a bit instead of just ignoring it and doing this well pretending we had not seen Barbatos name pop up just a few years ago.
    I have mixed feelings on Snyder using/coopting Morrison's run overarc for his own run's overarc. On one hand, it's a little unoriginal/too derivative/feels almost stealing-ish. On another, I do like Snyder enough and I love Morrison's run and even Snyder treading on it or spinning it doesn't perhaps disrespect it or dilute it or whatever. I'm sure Snyder would say he's "celebrating it" or whatever, but I don't know. Just weird that Snyder would want to use Barbatos in such a big way when his run came right after Morrison's that used Barbatos (and Morrison kinda suggested and meant that Barbatos wasn't a real thing/being (apart from misconception by humans, which I'm sure Grant wanted to highlight how those happen with myth vs reality, that interplay).

    Maybe it's just a crazy coincidence that both Morrison and Snyder wanted to mine the Milligan Barbatos tale, but I don't know. Weird.


    Part of my struggle with the issue is that the end of Morrison's run (Inc) is sorta kinda a mild diss of the Snyder era of Batman comics (not just Snyder perhaps, but he was shaping the overall tone and wave and trend).
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 11-09-2017 at 01:19 PM.
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  2. #62
    I am the law Judge Dredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBatmanFan05 View Post
    I have mixed feelings on Snyder using/coopting Morrison's run overarc for his own run's overarc. On one hand, it's a little unoriginal/too derivative/feels almost stealing-ish. On another, I do like Snyder enough and I love Morrison's run and even Snyder treading on it or spinning it doesn't perhaps disrespect it or dilute it or whatever. I'm sure Snyder would say he's "celebrating it" or whatever, but I don't know. Just weird that Snyder would want to use Barbatos in such a big way when his run came right after Morrison's that used Barbatos (and Morrison kinda suggested and mean that Barbatos wasn't a real thing/being (apart from misconception by humans, which I'm sure Grant wanted to highlight how those happen with myth vs reality, that interplay).

    Maybe it's just a crazy coincidence that both Morrison and Snyder wanted to mine the Milligan Barbatos tale, but I don't know. Weird.


    Part of my struggle with the issue is that the end of Morrison's run (Inc) is sorta kinda a mild diss of the Snyder era of Batman comics (not just Snyder perhaps, but he was shaping the overall tone and wave and trend).
    If it had been done poorly I would have been very upset that he is using Morrison's ideas, but they seem to be doing good so far. Plus Morrison always seems to get that others are going play with his ideas and seems fine with others expanding on what he does. Snyder seemed to be a big Morrison Batman fan so not surprised he is using it. With Snyder I felt more he was taking from Morrison and Morrison had taken from Milligan so it kind of piggybacks Milligan into Snyder's run also. Dark Knight Dark City is great glad it is getting tons of love for DC. I just hope when Barbatos finally comes Snyder does not screw it up.

  3. #63
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    Ridiculously small mistake in Batman Lost: spelled Hyper Adapter wrong as "Hyper Adaptor"


    Since 2006, it seems Darkseid & Barbatos have been Batman's biggest foes, in terms of in-story effect on...well, his whole life. Joker and Hurt too, but perhaps under these two in a way.
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 11-09-2017 at 01:51 PM.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikdad View Post
    I really liked this story.

    The idea of a bat spirit who preceded Bruce Wayne may date originally to World's Finest #255, in which Superman and Batman cross paths with a very powerful Native American bat god; this was years before Legend of the Dark Knight and its initial Native American bat spirit story, Shaman. Morrison didn't reference those directly, nor did Milligan, but either/both of them may have read it before their turn as writers.

    For what it's worth, Detective #27 indicated that the Chemical Syndicate adventure was not Batman's first case because Gordon was already talking about "the 'Bat-Man'" in the first panel. I don't think we have to concern ourselves whether anything said here is or isn't in continuity because it's all unreal and apparently shifting from moment to moment. We could take it as a kind of meta-reality wherein the Chemical Syndicate case is just Batman's first case in some possible timeline/universe.
    I'd actually deign to say that nothing that happened in Zero Year ... or Year One, for that matter ... was actually like, a private eye/detective/or even police style "Case". In Zero Year, it's "Bruce Wayne" investigating the Red Hood Gang - there is no Batman yet. In Year One, it's Bruce Wayne investigating a fair bit as well - there is no Batman yet. Eventually events in either (or both, if they both happened, whatevs) lead to him becoming Batman. This is a bit of a cheat - as I'm sort of realizing that I guess at least the following up on the "Doctor Death" stuff in Zero Year is somewhat "case-like". But definitely the Riddler parts aren't. That's just a weird "Gotham Catastrophe Survivalist" storyline. But the Doctor Death investigation is at least directly linked to the blackout and the hurricane - so it's still not like Batman was like "Aha, a mystery. I shall take this case!" It was part of a greater storyline and sequence of events.

    Anyway, it's never been all that hard to reconcile your Zero Years, Year Ones, Long Halloweens, Dark Moons Rising or Chemical Syndicates in my head.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBatmanFan05 View Post
    I have mixed feelings on Snyder using/coopting Morrison's run overarc for his own run's overarc. On one hand, it's a little unoriginal/too derivative/feels almost stealing-ish. On another, I do like Snyder enough and I love Morrison's run and even Snyder treading on it or spinning it doesn't perhaps disrespect it or dilute it or whatever. I'm sure Snyder would say he's "celebrating it" or whatever, but I don't know. Just weird that Snyder would want to use Barbatos in such a big way when his run came right after Morrison's that used Barbatos (and Morrison kinda suggested and meant that Barbatos wasn't a real thing/being (apart from misconception by humans, which I'm sure Grant wanted to highlight how those happen with myth vs reality, that interplay).

    Maybe it's just a crazy coincidence that both Morrison and Snyder wanted to mine the Milligan Barbatos tale, but I don't know. Weird.


    Part of my struggle with the issue is that the end of Morrison's run (Inc) is sorta kinda a mild diss of the Snyder era of Batman comics (not just Snyder perhaps, but he was shaping the overall tone and wave and trend).
    The reason I don't mind it is particularly because ... well, I've already praised Tomasi's Batman and Robin run for essentially just being a continuation of Morrison's run. But key thing for both - both Tomasi's storyline and Snyder's as well - is that they were happening in tandem with Morrison's run. For a vast swath of time. They were already affected by that run so hard that to not come full circle would be weird, actually. So Tomasi's run went full tilt into the Ra's al Ghul and Darkseid Apokoliptian stuff to bring back Damian, and now Snyder's run is going full tilt into the Multiversal/Timey-Wimey Barbatos stuff. And Seeley and King are fitting pretty well into it as well - after all, Grayson was also just a continuation of Morrison's run, that then blended with Snyder's run to bring in Owly stuff, and then went full-fusion, then brought back Doctor Hurt to set up Metal. And Tom King is depicting Bruce in a healthy relationship with Selina, akin to the opening chapters of Batman, Incorporated (Japan), and contrasting her against Talia.

    Morrison's run kind of never ended, in a way, though it's more obvious than ever now that Rebirth has fixed all those daffy New 52 meta-concepts.
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  6. #66
    I am the law Judge Dredd's Avatar
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    I love that this is all coming from Darkseid even if he did plan on it a trap within his trap. Plus another possible hole in things this one opening the door to the dark multiverse.

  7. #67
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    The story remind me of this bit of dialogue in Metal#2:
    Dianna: "We've beaten gods and monsters before."
    Barbatos: "because I let you."

    If Barbatos is a meta-plot villain like Morrison's Mandrakk or Gentry, as proofed by him burning story books in a Metal#4 variant cover, he's probably themed around plot armor. He picked Batman as target because Batman is most reliant of character shield.

  8. #68
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    I still think Barbatos ultimately sprang from the hyper-adapter/events of Morrison's run. Batman is sent back in time by Darkseid's omega beam, and then Darkseid sends the Hyper-Adapter to chase after him through time, so that when Batman gains enough chronal energy, the Hyper-Adapter can merge with him and Batman will become Darkseid's ultimate unstoppable weapon of destruction. It is implied, in a take-it-or-leave-it manner, that the entirety of Batman's life and career was engineered/shaped by the Hyper-Adapter for this very purpose. As the Hyper-Adapter arrives in each subsequent time-period where Bruce is, it decidedly becomes more Bat-like... and then when the Justice League separates it from Bruce and sends it hurtling backwards through time, it ultimately arrives at the dawn of man where it manifests as a giant bat and is killed by Vandal Savage, giving rise to the legend of Barbatos especially after Bruce wears its pelt. As Snyder correctly notes, this whole thing is one giant loop/contradiction; Darkseid is the hole in things, the hole in things created Batman, but Batman - by shooting Darkseid - created the hole in things.

    Now, it's not clear if Barbatos' 1765 manifestation before Dr. Hurt was on his way forward through the timeline, or backward, but any rate I sincerely believe, even within the context of Metal - Barbatos did spring from (or is) the corrupted Hyper-Adapter that was bonded and separated from Bruce, whose physical bat-form was "killed" by Savage right before Bruce arrived in the far past. I think all of that is what gave birth to Barbatos as an actual entity.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    I'd actually deign to say that nothing that happened in Zero Year ... or Year One, for that matter ... was actually like, a private eye/detective/or even police style "Case". In Zero Year, it's "Bruce Wayne" investigating the Red Hood Gang - there is no Batman yet.
    Without anyone saying so, I always assumed this is why the creators titled it "Zero Year": It's before the beginning. That doesn't explain why the characters in the story would call it that, which was another reason, but for the creators and fans, it precedes the beginning, and of course, before Year One.

  10. #70
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    There are some curious things about the cause-and-effect of Hurt in Morrison's run, and I'm not sure if he planned something subtle, then revealed it, or wrote the issues according to his muses and left them as plot hole, but here they are:

    1) What put the Hyper Adapter into the same time and place that Old Thomas Wayne and his friends were trying to summon Barbatos? Did their spell work on Darkseid's creation, attracting it, or did Darkseid's creations' passage through their time draw them to it? Total coincidence?

    2) How did it happen that Batman volunteered for the very same Space Medicine experiment that Dr. Hurt was running? Total coincidence?

    Morrison's reckoning of one thing is clear: 1765's Barbatos was created, whether frontwards or backwards, by Bruce Wayne's interaction with the Hyper-Adapter. Batman created himself and by giving him the Omega Effect, Darkseid gave Batman the opportunity to do that. "Everything they touch turns to myth" (Batman #702). It also makes clear that what happened wasn't their plan.

    So if you want to treat this as scripture, Morrison gives an out for some other timeless thing besides Darkseid and Batman to have influenced all of the above, guiding and directing it. Morrison's story implies that Darkseid created the opportunity and Batman seized it. But we might take Snyder's story as an addendum, that a different timeless thing directed that opportunity as well as the two coincidences above. Though Morrison's overall tone, I think, implied no such thing, and that Batman made himself.

  11. #71
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    In Nightwing #19, it seems Hyper Adapter or Darkseid (depend on who this Great Beast is) was plotting against Barbatos:
    https://i1.wp.com/www.comicsbeat.com...4/NTW_19_1.jpg
    Doctor Hurt was collecting Nth Metal and forging it into weapons, so this Great Beast is at least aware of Dark Multiverse and their weakness.

  12. #72
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    So in summary...

    Batman shot Darkseid
    Darkseid created the possibility of Barbatos
    Barbatos created the possibility of Batman

    I can only conclude that we're going to eventually see a throwdown between Barbatos and Darkseid.
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  13. #73
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty3w View Post
    In Nightwing #19, it seems Hyper Adapter or Darkseid (depend on who this Great Beast is) was plotting against Barbatos:
    https://i1.wp.com/www.comicsbeat.com...4/NTW_19_1.jpg
    Doctor Hurt was collecting Nth Metal and forging it into weapons, so this Great Beast is at least aware of Dark Multiverse and their weakness.
    Good observation. Some asserted that arc's connection to Metal, and I was like: what? But I think you're right.
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  14. #74
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    Judging by the cover, Barbatos is going to invade a library in Metal#4. According to Wikipedia:
    The Castle, Dream's abode at the center of the Dreaming. The front gate is guarded by three mythical beasts, a gryphon, a wyvern, and a hippogriff (often mistakenly drawn as a winged horse). It includes Lucien's library, which contains every book that anyone ever dreamt of writing. The library allows its users to read any of its books whether or not the reader speaks the language it was written in or indeed can even read. When one of the dreamed of books is actually written in the real world, the copy in Lucien's library bursts into flames and is destroyed.
    Assuming it is Lucien's library, why would Barbatos wants to destory unwritten books?
    Last edited by qwerty3w; 11-10-2017 at 01:21 PM.

  15. #75
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    Does no one have any thoughts on potentially connecting Gates of Gotham to this with the Anders brothers’ special metal used for Gotham’s foundations and sponsored by Alan Wayne???

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