View Poll Results: How would you rate this issue?

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  • ★★★★★

    4 10.53%
  • ★★★★

    7 18.42%
  • ★★★

    7 18.42%
  • ★★

    14 36.84%
  • 6 15.79%
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  1. #76
    Fantastic Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Well this thread is chock full of differences in opinion.
    It is not!

  2. #77
    Lv 67 Pinsir's Avatar
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    I don't get how this issue earned a 5* by some people...is it just because it stars Wonder Woman?
    Also visit my blog where I expose Wonder Woman for the criminal she is!

    How come these anonymous sources failed to report Zack Snyder had left post-production on Justice League? They seem to know everything now...

  3. #78

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    It's disappointing to hear that this storyline is kind of fizzling out. The first issue of it(#31) had a lot of promise(https://sirmarkussite.wordpress.com/...e-gods-part-1/).

  4. #79
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Jason's success, in my humble opinion, will be determined by Robinson's ability to insert a major character into this seventy-some year old comic, who feels as though he's always been there. Narratively speaking, Jason should feel organic, I think. Frankly, I'm not sure a sparkly elemental does the job, but guess we're stuck with him...

    For awhile.
    FINALLY! The greatest comic book movie, ever made... The ORIGIN of the GOLDEN AGE WONDER BOY!

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Apollo and Artemis are gods, not demi-gods, being the children of Zeus (a god) and Leto (a titan).

    Or did I miss something here?
    I would ask first for the definition of a 'god' in this case.

    I mean if you get the 'demi' simply by only one parent being a god and the other being something else. Then most of Olympus happens to fall under this description, but with many of them having ascended to full god-hood (like Apollo, Artemis and Heracles).

    But if you only get 'demi' if you are the offspring between a god and a human... then the demi-population decreases drastically, and Diana wont be one of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYCER View Post
    In other words, Gaelforce is correct and your extrapolations from Rucka's text and Scott's art from WW #6 are clearly erroneous.
    Only if you take those pages as absolutes... and it's pretty clear by now that DC is not doing that.

    Nothing Rucka wrote supports your contention that "Diana is the daughter of Zeus . . . despite everything else" absent some major mental gymnastics and fanwankery.
    And perhaps you should start considering that Rucka may be the one writing fan-wank here? Diana didn't stop being Zeus' offspring, nothing Rucka wrote changed that, nothing written outside of Wonder Woman changed that. Maybe you'd like to show us where it was changed? Whats your proof?

    Diana received her powers from the patrons because the patrons gave Diana "gifts." If she was already powered up by merely being Zeus's daughter, then why didn't she exhibit any until she ripped off the gate of her jail cell? The proposition you espouse is indeed nonsensical.
    How do you use powers and abilities you dont even know you have? Do we live in a world of the X-Men where powers just manifest at the most inconvenient times in an uncontrolled fashion?

    The return of Jason is simply yet another retcon in a long line of retcons of Diana's origins and mythology. Personally, I'm sick of it, but DC doesn't seem to care to sticking to a definitive version of Wonder Woman's origins.
    They are sticking with the same origins they've stuck with since 2011. Nothing has changed, save for some people who mistakenly thought it had gone back to a previous version.

    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Hercules is the Roman name for Heracles, whose birth name was Alcaeus.

    As Gael says, Apollo and Artemis are twin children of Leto, the goddess of modesty and daughter of the Titans Coeus and Phoebe.

    Dionysus is a tricky case, being twice born as the god Zagreus if you follow that convoluted myth. Pollux is considered immortal following his death, but shares his immortality with his mortal twin brother. Asterion is a mortal monster.
    You could just have called him Heracles or Hercules and we'd all know who you were talking about. :S

    Dionysus... the other myth is that his human mother was tricked by Hera to get Zeus to reveal his true form to her, which killed her, and Zeus sewed Dionysus to his kidney or something so he could born.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    I would ask first for the definition of a 'god' in this case. I mean if you get the 'demi' simply by only one parent being a god and the other being something else. Then most of Olympus happens to fall under this description, but with many of them having ascended to full god-hood (like Apollo, Artemis and Heracles).
    I've never read anything about the twins ascending, and I'm curious where you have. Despite their mother being a second generation Titan, I still consider Leto a goddess, so ascending to a place among the Olympian set isn't as significant as Heracles. If both parents have divine origins, they still qualify as a "god" to me. How do you distinguish the variety of divine creatures that populate the myths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    But if you only get 'demi' if you are the offspring between a god and a human... then the demi-population decreases drastically, and Diana wont be one of them.
    So you consider Amazons to be something other than human? Or just Hippolyta, if you follow the fathered-by-Ares myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    You could just have called him Heracles or Hercules and we'd all know who you were talking about. :S
    The point I was trying to make is that Alcaeus and Diana are their birth names, and Heracles and Wonder Woman are their superhero names. It's another parallel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Dionysus... the other myth is that his human mother was tricked by Hera to get Zeus to reveal his true form to her, which killed her, and Zeus sewed Dionysus to his kidney or something so he could born.
    There's another myth out there that states that Zeus raped his daughter Persephone, and Zagreus was the result. Hera doesn't like a little incest rape-baby being doted on by her husband, so she incites the Titans to attack Olympus, and the baby god is killed in the crossfire. Zeus recovers the baby's heart, turns it into a potion, and feeds it to his flavor of the month, the human Princess Semele, and the baby begins to grow again. Hera finds out, and and persuades Semele to gamble with Zeus, and thereupon is incinerated because of her hubris. The premature divine baby is recovered from the ashes, and for some reason, Zeus decides to sew it into his own thigh until it's ready to be born. When it does, it assumes the name Dionysus, the god of wine, madness, and chaos... because if THAT was your origin and family, you'd have a drinking problem too.

    Greek myth is terrifying and disgusting, and not original in the slightest. The god-of-wine part is pretty novel though.

  7. #82
    Mighty Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Read it today. 3 stars. Good but not good eough. Bad but not bad enough. A somewhat middling issue. Personally i liked their meeting. It has occured to me that Diana is alone. She has no allies of her own, unless you count Steve and his motley group as well as Etta. I was foolishly thinking that this guy is going to be helpful and useful. I always love to see brothers and sisters united. It was cute but then the story changed completely.

    I should have seen this coming from far away. Evil relatives are in vogue. But betrayal hurts when there is trust to begin with. Thus, Jason's turn around does not feel sincere or make sense. The next issue will have his story. So, some sense could be found then. I am still dissapointed to see both on opposite sides. Yet i can't say i wish to see Jason change. Next issue is important because it can make me care for Jason. As of now he feels boring. He was a bit interesting when they were meeting like long lost brothers and sisters. But after his turn around i don't find any interest in him.

    Someone mentioned Diana throwing him away: Get out of my sight! Now please give me more of this stuff. Comics shall be fun like this. That single thing made me give it three stars. Otherwise it deserves two from my side.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 11-10-2017 at 08:18 AM.

  8. #83
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    I would ask first for the definition of a 'god' in this case.

    I mean if you get the 'demi' simply by only one parent being a god and the other being something else. Then most of Olympus happens to fall under this description, but with many of them having ascended to full god-hood (like Apollo, Artemis and Heracles).

    But if you only get 'demi' if you are the offspring between a god and a human... then the demi-population decreases drastically, and Diana wont be one of them.
    By this definition there are no gods in the pantheon as they are all descended from Titans in one way or another.

    Zeus is the son of Chronus and Rhea, both Titans. Leto is the daughter of two titans, but...he's a god and she isn't?

    Anyone directly descended from the Titans without any human parentage has been considered a full god unless you have something that says differently?

    Leto was worshiped throughout Greece, so I'm pretty sure she's no more 'demi-' than Zeus


    Only if you take those pages as absolutes... and it's pretty clear by now that DC is not doing that.
    This is the crux of the problem. DC is allowing absolutes and then ignoring them.

    There is no doubt that Diana was given gifts by the Patrons the way it was written by Rucka. The fact that people need to do these mental gymnastics to make a year-old story approved by editorial fit with the current story shows that these inconsistencies are problematic.


    And perhaps you should start considering that Rucka may be the one writing fan-wank here? Diana didn't stop being Zeus' offspring, nothing Rucka wrote changed that, nothing written outside of Wonder Woman changed that. Maybe you'd like to show us where it was changed? Whats your proof?
    If by 'remaining true to the origin as written almost 75 years ago' as 'fan-wank'? That's a pretty poor and insulting term to use.

    The problem lies with editorial who needs to decide which origin they prefer. To launch 'Rebirth' with a 24 issue story line that clarifies a lot of issues about Diana's origin (why she left the island, how she came to be called Wonder Woman, what was the source of her powers) and then turn around a year later and have another writer contradict this isn't Rucka's fault, nor is it 'fan-wank'.

    How do you use powers and abilities you dont even know you have? Do we live in a world of the X-Men where powers just manifest at the most inconvenient times in an uncontrolled fashion?
    You mean like *every other powered hero in the DC Universe?*

    Superman was lifting tractors as a kid long before Jor-El started helping him out.

    No god was around to explain to Flash that he could now run really fast after a freak accident - he just discovered he could do it.

    Abin Sur died before explaining the ring to Green Lantern, but Hal figured it out pretty quickly.

    Aquaman fell into the water as a child and realized he could breathe it before he knew he was half-Atlantean.

    Why does Diana, daughter of Zeus, need Patrons or anyone to explain to her that she's had powers since she was born? Why is it literally every other meta in the DCU is smart enough (or lucky enough) to figure out/stumble into their powers and learn as they go, but Diana is completely oblivious for 18-20 years?

    They are sticking with the same origins they've stuck with since 2011. Nothing has changed, save for some people who mistakenly thought it had gone back to a previous version.
    No, they aren't and Rucka made this clear about everything *except* her parentage. He spelled out everything from how she was raised, how/why she left the island, how and when she was given powers, how/why she got the name Wonder Woman.

    The Amazons are different. The nature of Diana's leaving is different. The origin of the source of her powers is different.

    You can't just ignore 'The Truth' written by Rucka and write it off as 'fan-wank' while saying Azzarello and Robinson, also written in-canon and approved by DC editorial, is the only origin.

    DC has made a mess of her background and can't make up their minds what they want to do. They let Rucka write his story as the origin of the character, covering just about everything except her actual birth, and then let Robinson fill in the birth part of the story while now contradicting what they published from Rucka.

  9. #84
    Spectacular Member Astroman's Avatar
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    I have a feeling that Rucka's run is going to be increasingly ignored and contradicted by Robinson and people who follow him until it feels like a strange dream sequence that is chalked up to the weird shifts in the literary reality that mark the liminal space of ontological chaos between the New52 and however Rebirth finally 'solidifies' post Doomsday Clock.

    I think we're already seeing this occur, hence the confusion and contradictions between Rucka's run, Robinson's run, Titans, etc.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    I've never read anything about the twins ascending, and I'm curious where you have. Despite their mother being a second generation Titan, I still consider Leto a goddess, so ascending to a place among the Olympian set isn't as significant as Heracles. If both parents have divine origins, they still qualify as a "god" to me. How do you distinguish the variety of divine creatures that populate the myths?
    I tend to lean on how Hera has come to accept them for one reason or another. Like with Athena, we can deduct the problem is basically fear, even Zeus feared what Athena would be. So whats the deal with Apollo and Artemis?

    So you consider Amazons to be something other than human? Or just Hippolyta, if you follow the fathered-by-Ares myth?
    They are not anymore human to me than any of the many human-like aliens. They may look and act human, but no human as far as I know is made of clay or live for thousands of years without aging.

    The point I was trying to make is that Alcaeus and Diana are their birth names, and Heracles and Wonder Woman are their superhero names. It's another parallel.
    I was under the impression Herakles was his actual name.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    By this definition there are no gods in the pantheon as they are all descended from Titans in one way or another.

    Zeus is the son of Chronus and Rhea, both Titans. Leto is the daughter of two titans, but...he's a god and she isn't?

    Anyone directly descended from the Titans without any human parentage has been considered a full god unless you have something that says differently?

    Leto was worshiped throughout Greece, so I'm pretty sure she's no more 'demi-' than Zeus
    That maybe true, but not all of them were equally important or equally revered... likely due to the Greeks doing like everyone else did and made their myths out of hundreds of local legends, traditions and forms of worship.

    This is the crux of the problem. DC is allowing absolutes and then ignoring them.

    There is no doubt that Diana was given gifts by the Patrons the way it was written by Rucka. The fact that people need to do these mental gymnastics to make a year-old story approved by editorial fit with the current story shows that these inconsistencies are problematic.
    There is nowhere in what Rucka wrote that constituted as an absolute. A reader might convince themselves there was one, but let me just remind everyone that 'Year One' falls under the same rules and scrutiny that 'The Lies' imposed on everything else. Not everything you see in 'Year One' is to be taken for granted.

    Chiefly among which you have to consider that Diana in 'Year One' is a Diana who does not know she is Zeus' daughter yet, so yes, she is very open to the possibility of the gods coming down and tell her they have given her powers and all they've really done is give her and excuse to try and do something she knows other Amazons cannot do.

    As for Editorial... well, pardon for saying this, but part of their job is to make books sell as much as possible, and considering the wide scope of influence Rucka was allowed for this project, it's not unlikely editorial was thinking: money first, coherence later. They knew if they just let Rucka do his thing, then this book would sell. What they didn't say or do, was that they would now work from it alone going forwards.

    If by 'remaining true to the origin as written almost 75 years ago' as 'fan-wank'? That's a pretty poor and insulting term to use.

    The problem lies with editorial who needs to decide which origin they prefer. To launch 'Rebirth' with a 24 issue story line that clarifies a lot of issues about Diana's origin (why she left the island, how she came to be called Wonder Woman, what was the source of her powers) and then turn around a year later and have another writer contradict this isn't Rucka's fault, nor is it 'fan-wank'.
    That origins was written 75 years ago... and hasn't been used as written for 75 years... pardon me if I dont get all upset over changing it now.
    I can call it 'writer indulgence' if that's better? Point is Rucka was given the project and decided to write whatever damn well pleased him, he brought back a lot of stuff he created, he brought back stuff and settings he liked, and he went out of his way to remove stuff he didn't, whenever or not other people in DC might be planning on using them or not. This was a passion project to him because he likes the character, but considering what we ended with, it clear he didn't have a bold new idea for it.

    I am saying it's more Rucka's fault than anyone else because Rucka's version is the one that doesn't fit into the wider continuity of the DCU. When he was doing all of his work on WW, everyone else was still using the New 52 Wonder Woman and with only a tiny amount of changes, it seems its still that Wonder Woman that Robinson is using, mostly.

    You mean like *every other powered hero in the DC Universe?*
    No, just X-Men, who seems to be the only ones who find out they have powers by and causing accidents.

    Superman was lifting tractors as a kid long before Jor-El started helping him out.
    Pretty hard for him to do what when he's usually dead. Anyways it's not really an accident and the Kents were able to teach him as he grew.

    No god was around to explain to Flash that he could now run really fast after a freak accident - he just discovered he could do it.
    Yes, after a bolt of lightning and some chemicals hit him.

    Abin Sur died before explaining the ring to Green Lantern, but Hal figured it out pretty quickly.
    When he was dragged to Oa for training by Sinestro.

    Aquaman fell into the water as a child and realized he could breathe it before he knew he was half-Atlantean.
    Yes and living on the coastline getting in the water and holding your breath isn't exactly a world first.

    Why does Diana, daughter of Zeus, need Patrons or anyone to explain to her that she's had powers since she was born? Why is it literally every other meta in the DCU is smart enough (or lucky enough) to figure out/stumble into their powers and learn as they go, but Diana is completely oblivious for 18-20 years?
    Because unlike any of the others she had Hera (or Ares if we use the movie) looming over her shoulders, and if she was revealed prematurely she'd have been a smear on the ground.


    No, they aren't and Rucka made this clear about everything *except* her parentage. He spelled out everything from how she was raised, how/why she left the island, how and when she was given powers, how/why she got the name Wonder Woman.

    The Amazons are different. The nature of Diana's leaving is different. The origin of the source of her powers is different.

    You can't just ignore 'The Truth' written by Rucka and write it off as 'fan-wank' while saying Azzarello and Robinson, also written in-canon and approved by DC editorial, is the only origin.

    DC has made a mess of her background and can't make up their minds what they want to do. They let Rucka write his story as the origin of the character, covering just about everything except her actual birth, and then let Robinson fill in the birth part of the story while now contradicting what they published from Rucka.
    My apologies, perhaps I should have written BIRTH rather than origins?

    If DC can ignore 'The Truth' and the majority of Rucka's run going forwards, then so can I.

    Hey they let Rucka wipe out pretty much everything that had been written since 2011 and making us doubt if any of it actually happened or not and not bother actually explaining why or how any of the remnants now fit in the world. No one should be at all surprised that a future writer would treat his work the same way.

  11. #86
    Moderator Nyssane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astroman View Post
    I have a feeling that Rucka's run is going to be increasingly ignored and contradicted by Robinson and people who follow him until it feels like a strange dream sequence that is chalked up to the weird shifts in the literary reality that mark the liminal space of ontological chaos between the New52 and however Rebirth finally 'solidifies' post Doomsday Clock.

    I think we're already seeing this occur, hence the confusion and contradictions between Rucka's run, Robinson's run, Titans, etc.
    Welcome to Wonder Woman, where the writers will literally ignore anything that came before it if it "benefits" their own messy stories.

    It's nothing new. Rarely do writers ever expand on what is built upon in earlier issues for Wonder Woman, which is why conversations always turn to "why doesn't Wonder Woman have a definitive role in the DC Universe? Who are Wonder Woman's supporting cast/villains? Why doesn't Wonder Woman have a consistent powerset?"

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    I tend to lean on how Hera has come to accept them for one reason or another. Like with Athena, we can deduct the problem is basically fear, even Zeus feared what Athena would be. So whats the deal with Apollo and Artemis?
    It's my headfanon that narcissist Zeus despised his first three children for not being enough like himself. His sons by Hera were monsters, and his daughter by his first wife Metis was, well, a daughter. Rather than try a third time with Hera, his hopes for a proper son led him to meek Leto, who had gorgeous, defiant, mother-adoring twins. Zeus tried to win them over by demanding Helios and Selene give them their dominions, but they remained cold to their philandering father. They demanded Leto be given a home on Olympus, and the three became a tight knit clique of Mean Girls among the gods.

  13. #88
    Spectacular Member Astroman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyssane View Post
    Welcome to Wonder Woman, where the writers will literally ignore anything that came before it if it "benefits" their own messy stories.

    It's nothing new. Rarely do writers ever expand on what is built upon in earlier issues for Wonder Woman, which is why conversations always turn to "why doesn't Wonder Woman have a definitive role in the DC Universe? Who are Wonder Woman's supporting cast/villains? Why doesn't Wonder Woman have a consistent powerset?"
    I completely agree with you and understand that dynamic. I also think that *on top of that precedent* we're seeing the poorly coordinated restructuring of the DC Universe between the various principals in the effort... specifically, while things like the Titans annual from last year supported the Johns, N52, and now Robinson approach, Rucka was implying (or creating a literary atmosphere where the inference was unsurprising) that certain things had changed that we're now finding out didn't actually change.

    I wouldn't be surprised if in Robinson's run we hear Diana say a line like, "You aren't the only one who got surprising powers from our father!" and uses a power that contradicts Rucka's explanation but is in line with the N52 version.

  14. #89
    Invincible Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    While this definitely is a infamous route with Wonder Woman, its hard for me to consider in this instance things being ignored/retconned from the last run because the last run was so incredibly ill-defined in the first place. The few things it really told us for certain was that Diana has never been back to Themyscira and the place she was going back to was false, as was its Amazons. And that has remained true. Because while Jason and the natural birth are still a thing, we've concretely seen that this is just a New 52 aspect that was folded into what is now real (IOW it happened on the real Paradise Island to the real Hippolyta). We also know she got her powers (at the very least the bulk of them) from the patrons again. That hasn't been contradicted yet. Virtually everything else was such a grab bag and up in the air that again, its extremely difficult to say that anything is being outright ignored or contradicted. Because we had so very little clarified for sure coming out of the initial Rebirth run in the first place.

    So long story short, I don't think much of what Rucka did is going to be ignored. Because really, there's only a few things concretely established to be honored in the first place and thus far I'm not seeing those few aspects not being honored at this stage. Titans, now that's another story. I don't read Titans so I have no clue what they're doing with Donna and what the current contradictions are, but I don't doubt they're there because DC has an even worse track record there. So I definitely do see that being wildly off the map and not in sync with anything else because it never is.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 11-10-2017 at 12:13 PM.
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  15. #90
    Spectacular Member Astroman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    While this definitely is a infamous route with Wonder Woman, its hard for me to consider in this instance things being ignored/retconned from the last run because the last run was so incredibly ill-defined in the first place.
    Good point. Perhaps I should amend my speculation to, "The conclusions and assumptions that certain readers took from Rucka's run will be challenged/confused/create cognitive dissonance for them as we move further into future writers and storylines."

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