Page 29 of 29 FirstFirst ... 192526272829
Results 421 to 429 of 429
  1. #421
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    547

    Default

    This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the Aziz incident.



    Here's the problem with the Ansari situation. When she asked him to stop, he stopped. When he later tried to re initiate and she asked him to stop again and decided to leave he stopped again and helped her leave. That's what you are supposed to do. Non verbal cues don't cut it. Men aren't mind readers, contrary to popular opinion. Aziz Ansari at worst is guilty of wanting sex, being dreadfully unaware, and being pushy and trying to get sex again. He did not rape or sexually assault anyone.

    And yeah she did flat out say that she made this anonymous account because she saw him award. And yes people have been saying (even in this thread) that he should lose his show. There's a line between coercion and assault, but at some point there's a responsibility to say no and not just take part in something you are uncomfortable with because you feel weird saying no. If you are unable to say no, that's one thing. This person was able of saying no and this person was able to leave whenever. At some point you have use your autonomy as an equal person and disengage.

    And it's shit like this that has made it harder for women to come out and share their accounts of rape and sexual assault and be believed. Not because people are all sexist evil assholes. Harvey Weinstein and Kevin Spacey were universally lambasted across the board by all but a tiny minority. It's because it's very easy to take what was essentially a bad date with an unaware horny dude and try to conflate it with a serious crime because one person decided to go along with it to avoid an awkward situation before it got to far instead of being an autonomous adult and saying no from the start and leaving the situation. She could have said no and left from the start.

    Shit like this makes me angry because like others I know people who were sexually harassed, assaulted, and raped. This does not make their lives easier.
    Last edited by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE; 01-16-2018 at 10:37 AM.

  2. #422
    Invincible Member TheInvisibleMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Northeast US
    Posts
    11,139

    Default

    in this particular instance, Ive seen the women I know look at this situation and react "yeah, Ive been there"

    and seen many men defending it

    and non verbal cues are easy to read...IF YOU WANT TO
    “If you listen to the fans, you’ll find yourself sitting with them”

    - Joe Kuharich

  3. #423
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    547

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInvisibleMan View Post
    in this particular instance, Ive seen the women I know look at this situation and react "yeah, Ive been there"

    and seen many men defending it

    and non verbal cues are easy to read...IF YOU WANT TO
    That's not a judgement anyone here is qualified to make. Some people are very unaware. We have no idea how "easy to read" these non verbal cues were. What type of non verbal cue is a guy going to read while a women is naked on his couch with his genitals in her mouth? And either way she was not impaired, she didn't have to go along with it, she could have said no, she could have not done it, she could have left. We know this because when she said no and left it was very easy for her to.

    I don't doubt plenty of women have been there. I also don't doubt that plenty of guys went a long with a sexual encounter they weren't crazy about because they felt awkward about saying no. Personally I've been there too with girlfriends who pressured me into sex when I wasn't up for it, but I'm not going to conflate them with a movement concerning rape, sexual assault, and sexual harassment in the workplace.

    Every person has their own autonomy and the responsibility to leave situations they don't want to take part in. If this was a crime and it was Aziz asking her to steal something and she said "I felt pressured but went along with it and didn't say no initially" would we be giving her a pass? No. The reason being because at some point people are accountable for the actions they do and don't take part in, whether they were entirely comfortable doing it or not. In this case, she wasn't impaired and she did something. When it went too far for her she had no problem saying no. She also wasn't forced against her will and assaulted or raped afterwards. He stopped. Time passed. Tried to initiate again. She said no again and decided to leave this time. He stopped and helped her leave.

    That is not sexual assault, that is not sexually harassment, that is not rape. That is pushy date who wants sex and is unaware of how to read women trying to get sex and a woman who who went a long with it without being completely comfortable until it was getting to a line she could no longer tolerate. The worst thing you could say about Aziz is that he is pushy, awkward and doesn't know how to read women, and a little creep. That doesn't make him some evil predator. That doesn't merit putting him on blast and tying him to a movement that is about rape and sexual assault that she obviously knows could impact his life and career.

  4. #424
    Astonishing Member AndrewCrossett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,210

    Default

    I agree that the Ansari incident pushes too far in trying to redefine somebody being kind of a dick on a date, to being a sexual predator. This was not something that warrants career destruction.

    I agree with the substance of this article by Caitlin Flanagan in The Atlantic:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/entertai...ansari/550541/

  5. #425
    Standing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,822

    Default

    After watching GET OUT recently it got me to thinking about this concept of gaslighting. It doesn't have to be a conscious conspiracy. But some people, like me, tend to worry over our past actions, and when someone gives a completely different version of events from what we remember, we start to question ourselves. Other people aren't as easily manipulated. So some of us will be constantly updating our version of reality based on incoming data, while others are resistant to new information and will go on blithely believing in their own perception of events.

    I don't know which type of person is Aziz Ansari and I have no knowledge of this woman other than what she tells us--so it's impossible to know what was communicated. It could be that this woman just wanted to believe in her own self-narrative and shaped the story to make herself feel better. And by imposing this version of events on Ansari, she was effectivly gaslighting him. And now he has to adjust his perception of events to accord with hers. Or it could be that eveything happened exactly the way she tells and her non-verbal cues were absolutely obvious and clear. In which case, Ansari might have been manipulating her.

    But I empathize with this problem, because it happens all the time and not just on dates. It's like in a Hitchcock movie where the protagonist is accused of a crime he didn't commit yet he feels guilty just the same, because we all carry around these feelings of guilt (most normal people). So you aren't guilty of the crime but you are gullty of something.

    I'm just irked that this story should come out right after I had binge-watched both seasons of MASTER OF NONE.
    In einem unbekannten Land vor gar nicht allzu langer Zeit war eine Biene sehr bekannt von der sprach alles weit und breit. Und diese Biene
    die ich meine nennt sich Maja, kleine freche schlaue Biene Maja. Maja fliegt durch ihre Welt zeigt uns das was ihr gefällt. Wir treffen heute
    uns're Freundin Biene Maja, diese kleine freche Biene Maja. Maja allerliebste Maja--Maja, Maja erzähle uns von dir.

  6. #426
    Invincible Member TheInvisibleMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Northeast US
    Posts
    11,139

    Default

    this I agree with, and thats pretty much it

    “A lot of men will read that post about Aziz Ansari and see an everyday, reasonable sexual interaction. But part of what women are saying right now is that what the culture considers ‘normal’ sexual encounters are not working for us, and oftentimes harmful.”
    “If you listen to the fans, you’ll find yourself sitting with them”

    - Joe Kuharich

  7. #427
    Invincible Member TheInvisibleMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Northeast US
    Posts
    11,139

    Default

    I never liked Ansari, his stand up has one good bit about his nephew, I laughed when his character got fired from 'Scrubs', and I always felt 'Master Of None' was trying too hard to show him as a "good guy"
    “If you listen to the fans, you’ll find yourself sitting with them”

    - Joe Kuharich

  8. #428
    Astonishing Member Cyke's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,963

    Default

    Wellp, Catherine Deneuve apologized for her comments last week. The key thing she was missing imo was differentiating puritanism from prevention -- not fully realizing that some of the more public women making the accusations are also very sex-positive and open about their sex lives and have every right to do so without predatory behavior, along with defense of that widespread behavior on the part of men.

    And yes people have been saying (even in this thread) that he should lose his show
    But not her. I think that needs to be repeated because she's at the center, not others and not people in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    It's because it's very easy to take what was essentially a bad date with an unaware horny dude and try to conflate it with a serious crime because one person decided to go along with it to avoid an awkward situation before it got to far instead of being an autonomous adult and saying no from the start and leaving the situation. She could have said no and left from the start.
    How many times has any one of us gotten intimate with someone, asked them to slow down or stop, and then stayed behind without fooling around any further just so that we could spend time with someone we genuinely like, like cuddling or talking or continuing the movie? He didn't assault her, so she had no reason to treat it like assault had happened. The treatment we're so ingrained with about women is so strong that we'll take a misinterpreted signal and assume it's proactive. Simply asking would have sufficed -- after all, good sex depends on communication, like position and dirty talk and safe words. Permission can also be part of that foreplay or end it, as long as there's clear communication. Hell, as much as we may scoff at it, porn actors are increasing their use of verbal commands and requests in the act. It may seem trivial but it has its various positive effects.

    And I'm not saying that Aziz should be punished or his career should end. I'm also not saying she handled this properly, but that things happen on dates. He seems genuinely open to conversation once he became the news -- that's not easy, but he's acknowledging her. No one's really asked her what she wants out of this. Between them, it seems like it's going to be handled the same way as Harmon and Ganz, which is more productive. But dynamics on dates can indeed get fuzzy and confusing, and one of the things is allowing space to breathe a bit on both ends.

    With that said, I agree there's a way where we can do this, have serious uncomfortable discussions, and centering the accuser, without casting the person who does harm as a monster who is unredeemable, because then you lose out on the communication. There are a number of people who brush this off saying, "I was in a similar situation, and I came out of it fine," which is different than saying, "I was in a similar situation, and it wasn't great. How do we change that?" And that can be done without demonizing Aziz.

    I am glad, though, that there's more nuance coming out of it. It's not Aziz nor his accuser who are invalidating each other's comments.

    Edit: Huh, here's Huffpo's front page article on Aziz.

    If the #MeToo movement is going to amount to sustained culture change ― rather than simply a weeding out of the worst actors in a broken system ― we need to renegotiate the sexual narratives we’ve long accepted. And that involves having complicated conversations about sex that is violating but not criminal.
    ------

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInvisibleMan View Post
    I never liked Ansari, his stand up has one good bit about his nephew, I laughed when his character got fired from 'Scrubs', and I always felt 'Master Of None' was trying too hard to show him as a "good guy"
    Well, more than a few episodes have him making moves on women in intimate spaces but then getting shot down, without him trying to pressure more out of it (at least, not physically). So at least his TV persona handles things differently, at least.
    Last edited by Cyke; 01-16-2018 at 02:17 PM.
    "Until the lion learns to write, every story will glorify the hunter."
    --African proverb

  9. #429
    Astonishing Member Cyke's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,963

    Default

    Sorry to double post, but this post from a friend of a friend resonated with me enough that I felt it warranted is own post.
    Speaking as a guy who's been like Aziz in this kind of situation, it rings painfully true about dating and awkward situations, even if it's all legal. http://https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10104400731330986&id=5500480

    I sympathize with Aziz because I've been there, but I have to make sure that sympathy doesn't distract from his date's experiences and keeping her in the center.
    Last edited by Cyke; 01-16-2018 at 04:52 PM.
    "Until the lion learns to write, every story will glorify the hunter."
    --African proverb

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •