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  1. #16
    Concerned Citizen Citizen Kane's Avatar
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    The New Gods are supposed to be a tier above the mythological pantheons. However, this doesn't mean the pantheons are any less powerful than the Justice League, and I don't really recall any times they've been treated as such.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan Theo View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I don't expect them to be super above the human intellect, especially in terms of morality, but don't you think each Olympian god should be way more powerful than Wonder Woman, considering Diana is the daughter of Zeus and a immortal-living (age-wise) but mortal Amazon?

    I don't mind them being used to help defeat Darkseid's army but I am certainly hoping that the invading Apokalyptian army came in full force, with or without Darkseid, to validate their necessary participation. It would seem rather silly, that an entire Pantheon of Greek Gods (at least 13 of them, not to even mention to the dozens of demi-gods that exist under Greek mythology that will be in the hundreds) is less effective than the Justice League (not to take anything away from the League). However, I can probably accept a story line that since gods exists within the worship of people, the greek gods were able to preserve themselves by having created the amazons while the other gods of myth died out. They were still around but weakened to almost meta human level, I can understand.

    What's your take on this?

    WW gods should be like GL Oans
    As they are Gods I see them as many orders of magnitude above beings like the Guardians. The way that Berger and Perez defined them in War of the Gods had them as beings of a multitude of dimensions. When you consider how powerful 5 dimensional and 6 dimensional beings are you begin to see the gulf. The New Gods are like the Pans. The Gods however are not.

  3. #18
    Incredible Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    1. I'd really like there to be an exploration of what makes a New God a god. Are they all more resilient than normal humans/metahumans? More powerful on average? Other special abilities their "species" has?

    We know Darkseid, Orion, Big Barda, Kalibak, Knockout, Steppenwolf, and Grail can go head to head with Superman, Wonder Woman, Powergirl, Shazam, etc, in the power department but it seems like anyone could sucker punch Desaad or Lashina, given the opportunity.

    What qualities across the board make their species a single top-tier, multidimensional set of divinities when compared to other low-tier gods tied to a particular Earth. (E.G. Diana's Earth 1 Olympian gods were different from Diana and Flash's Earth 2 [the most recent title] Roman gods.)

    2. We need an explanation of what makes an Olympian or other divinity a god, instead of just a high-powered alien.

    I'd really like to get into the New Gods more (I liked them in Darkseid War), but it'd be a great explanation to get.

    Are Zeus and Hera scared of Darkseid? Of Desaad? Or of Bloody Mary, because of their power? Or can the Olympians hold their own against Apokolips?

  4. #19
    Mad scientist Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    1. I'd really like there to be an exploration of what makes a New God a god. Are they all more resilient than normal humans/metahumans? More powerful on average? Other special abilities their "species" has?

    We know Darkseid, Orion, Big Barda, Kalibak, Knockout, Steppenwolf, and Grail can go head to head with Superman, Wonder Woman, Powergirl, Shazam, etc, in the power department but it seems like anyone could sucker punch Desaad or Lashina, given the opportunity.

    What qualities across the board make their species a single top-tier, multidimensional set of divinities when compared to other low-tier gods tied to a particular Earth. (E.G. Diana's Earth 1 Olympian gods were different from Diana and Flash's Earth 2 [the most recent title] Roman gods.)

    2. We need an explanation of what makes an Olympian or other divinity a god, instead of just a high-powered alien.

    I'd really like to get into the New Gods more (I liked them in Darkseid War), but it'd be a great explanation to get.

    Are Zeus and Hera scared of Darkseid? Of Desaad? Or of Bloody Mary, because of their power? Or can the Olympians hold their own against Apokolips?
    It's not about how much power they have or if they can beat up such or so. It's about where their power comes from.
    The New Gods are powered by the Source.
    They are proper Gods, Jack Kirby said so. It's right their in their origin story.

    And yes, Superman can still beat most of them them up because he's Superman.
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
    - Gerhard Bronner

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen Kane View Post
    The New Gods are supposed to be a tier above the mythological pantheons. However, this doesn't mean the pantheons are any less powerful than the Justice League, and I don't really recall any times they've been treated as such.
    Actually they aren't. The New Gods were supposed to be the next generation of gods compared to the ones Earth is familiar with.

    And while I am not sure if Kirby established this or not, but often enough the New Gods are often shown to be less powerful than their predecessors. Which also fits into the Godwave idea, you had the old gods created from the first pass of the wave, you got the New Gods the second time and the third it gave rise to metahumans, each generation generally weaker than the last.

  6. #21
    Mad scientist Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Actually they aren't. The New Gods were supposed to be the next generation of gods compared to the ones Earth is familiar with.

    And while I am not sure if Kirby established this or not, but often enough the New Gods are often shown to be less powerful than their predecessors. Which also fits into the Godwave idea, you had the old gods created from the first pass of the wave, you got the New Gods the second time and the third it gave rise to metahumans, each generation generally weaker than the last.
    The New Gods are portrayed all over the place.
    When Jim Starlin writes them they really are just some space aliens who are no more godly than Thanagarians with better tech.
    When Grant Morrison writes them they are divine beings who are so powerful just the act of entering the material plane is enough to start to unravel the universe.

    Morrison is a heck of a lot closer to their creator's intentions though.

    The godwave thing is a John Byrne creation. Whose other big New Gods idea was for Barda to make mind-controlled porn with Superman.
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
    - Gerhard Bronner

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    The New Gods are portrayed all over the place.
    When Jim Starlin writes them they really are just some space aliens who are no more godly than Thanagarians with better tech.
    When Grant Morrison writes them they are divine beings who are so powerful just the act of entering the material plane is enough to start to unravel the universe.

    Morrison is a heck of a lot closer to their creator's intentions though.

    The godwave thing is a John Byrne creation. Whose other big New Gods idea was for Barda to make mind-controlled porn with Superman.
    Thats all true... but I could say that Morrison is pretty much the only writer who treats the New Gods like the metaphysical entities they claim to be, it's not just Starlin, Kirby also did it, Johns does it, Azzarello did it and so on...

  8. #23
    Mighty Member richalex's Avatar
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    At one point, the New Gods were spawned from the fight between the Titans and the Olympians. (Atleast thats how Perez wrote it. And to be honest I kinda prefer that.)

    The New Gods can eventually be the most powerful, but I think the Olympians still have some fight in them.
    Richard Alexander

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by richalex View Post
    And to be honest I kinda prefer that.
    Why?

    I feel like I want to right a Titanomachia tell-all after my Hippolyte kids book.

  10. #25
    Mighty Member richalex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Why?

    I feel like I want to right a Titanomachia tell-all after my Hippolyte kids book.
    Well we know the New Gods were spawned from an ancient battle, and we know the Olympians and Titans have an ancient battle. Soooo boom. lol. Ties them all into each other.

    IT is rather interesting that the New Gods were originally supposed to be the Asgardians after Ragnarok over at Marvel, but they wouldn't let Kirby do it.
    Richard Alexander

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by richalex View Post
    Well we know the New Gods were spawned from an ancient battle, and we know the Olympians and Titans have an ancient battle. Soooo boom. lol. Ties them all into each other.

    IT is rather interesting that the New Gods were originally supposed to be the Asgardians after Ragnarok over at Marvel, but they wouldn't let Kirby do it.
    Yeah, the Titanomachia was more of a coup of the natural order than an apocalyptic battle, but I can understand why you'd think that.

    Maybe it's a form of privilege or selfishness, but I want the "New Gods" to be a result of modern, contemporary chaos. Moving "New Gods" to be the result of a battle that marks the separation of the Copper to Bronze Age pushes the concept of New to be simultaneous to whats considered ancient and mythological. Personal tastes, I guess?

    Kirby's idea of making New Gods the inheritors of Ragnarok was a bad idea anyhow, lol.

  12. #27
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    Is it accurate to safe that the top 12 evil gods of Apokalips can beat the Top 12 Deities of WW? I mean Aprhodite, Hestia, Hera & Demeter are not necessarily warriors (thought are still Olympians and can still perform magical feats, but but the remaining 8 are quite tough. If they are, then where does WW stand then, underneath all the New Gods?

  13. #28
    Mighty Member richalex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan Theo View Post
    Is it accurate to safe that the top 12 evil gods of Apokalips can beat the Top 12 Deities of WW? I mean Aprhodite, Hestia, Hera & Demeter are not necessarily warriors (thought are still Olympians and can still perform magical feats, but but the remaining 8 are quite tough. If they are, then where does WW stand then, underneath all the New Gods?
    Isn't Hestia technically the most powerful of the Olympians? And Aphrodite is also a War Goddess I believe.
    Richard Alexander

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan Theo View Post
    Is it accurate to safe that the top 12 evil gods of Apokalips can beat the Top 12 Deities of WW? I mean Aprhodite, Hestia, Hera & Demeter are not necessarily warriors (thought are still Olympians and can still perform magical feats, but but the remaining 8 are quite tough. If they are, then where does WW stand then, underneath all the New Gods?
    Battle Royale matchup conversations have got to be one of the most boring routes to go with regard to divinities. They're egocentric omnipotent immortals. You don't overpower them, you outwit them.

    "Gods of War" are not who you pray to for firepower, they're who you pray to for strategy. Gods start and end in the mind.

    I don't see gods as Oans so much as Myxzptlyks who are fueled by faith and disabled by self-doubt. This is why the marriage of Barda and Scot is so important. He's the New God of Creativity, and she's the New Goddess of Confidence. Together, they're unstoppable.

    I could derail this thread and maybe this forum with my headfanons for a Fourth World reboot, so I'll stop there.
    Last edited by CRaymond; 11-14-2017 at 11:41 AM.

  15. #30
    Mighty Member richalex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Battle Royale matchup conversations have got to be one of the most boring routes to go with regard to divinities. They're egocentric omnipotent immortals. You don't overpower them, you outwit them.

    "Gods of War" are not who you pray to for firepower, they're who you pray to for strategy. Gods start and end in the mind.

    I don't see gods as Oans so much as Myxzptlyks who are fueled by faith and disabled by self-doubt. This is why the marriage of Barda and Scot is so important. He's the New God of Creativity, and she's the New Goddess of Confidence. Together, they're unstoppable.

    I could derail this thread and maybe this forum with my headfanons for a Fourth World reboot, so I'll stop there.
    OOO!!! Is there a listing showing what each New God is God of? I've always been curious about that.
    Richard Alexander

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