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  1. #31
    Fantastic Member Morning's Avatar
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    So to revisit your scenario, it's more like: *Bamf* Oh, that's cute, he side-stepped my punch! Now he's...ARGHH CRAP SONICS... GOT... TO... CONCENTRATE AND *Bamf* Oh, good, I'm a safe distance awa--*explodes from sticky-micro-bomb on his costume*.

    Or something.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morning View Post
    So Nightwing's mind is so much faster than Dick's that he can watch him dodge in slow-motion and cooly consider his options; or Dick is so bad at dodging that after successfully reacting to the first attack, he is incapable of dodging any more; or what exactly are you claiming here?
    Read it again, I'm writing Nightcrawler reacting to Dick's reactions. That is certainly within Nightcrawler's capabilities, given the number of times he's done multports.

    By that, I mean Nightcrawler has done multiple ports so fast that it appears he is attacking from multiple places at the same time quite frequently throughout the 80's. He's done this to Avalanche, a Shi'ar soldier, and Rogue, just off the top of my head. I'm positive there are more examples. It used to be a pretty consistent feat for him. In addition, he's also grabbed people and done about 20 multiports in a few seconds to knock them out.

    There's a reason fans cheered the opening sequence of X-Men 2, because Bryan Singer managed to get Nightcrawler's capabilities exactly right, straight from the comics.

    His current gloves shoot sonic grenades. He doesn't have to reach for, or aim, anything. He also has an AOE attack with his electrified sticks (and an insulated suit). If he can stun Nightcrawler with one of several AOE options long enough to land one clean hit, I think he wins.
    Ok, I concede that this slightly increases Dick's chances. However, I do sincerely believe Kurt is fast enough to port in and out before the AOE hits, given the port speed he frequently showed in the 80's.

    So, it's not the complete slaughter I initially thought it was, but I'd still wager on Kurt winning most fights.

  3. #33
    Fantastic Member Morning's Avatar
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    How will Kurt know when the AOE is going to hit? Assuming Dick does a duck or cartwheel or whatever after the opening attack, he could fire the tiny esoteric grenade pellet at the ground from just inches away. Why would Kurt even notice it, let alone know what it is, let alone think to port “away” when his entire battle strategy is to keep porting within melee range?
    Last edited by Morning; 11-14-2017 at 11:23 PM.

  4. #34
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    If I understand "Rumble" rules correctly, we are essential talking about Kurt Darkholme.

    Nightwing isn't walking away from that one. It would be ugly and one-sided.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morning View Post
    How will Kurt know when the AOE is going to hit? Assuming Dick does a duck or cartwheel or whatever after the opening attack, he could fire the tiny esoteric grenade pellet at the ground from just inches away. Why would Kurt even notice it, let alone know what it is, let alone think to port “away” when his entire battle strategy is to keep porting within melee range?
    Why would you assume that is Kurt's strategy? This is a highly trained X-Man who a) was actually brave enough to take up Wolverine's offer for personal one on one training for years, and b) is also a competent field leader who led Excaliber through the 90's. Kurt is perfectly capable of feints all on his own, or just waiting for Dick to make a move. When Dick is in mid cartwheel, duck, roll, jump, whatever, Kurt ports in and out with a limb before Dick realizes what happened. Dick cannot dodge in the middle of a dodge. It is physically impossible, even for him. That's largely why he loses most of these battles, because a split second is literally all Kurt needs to end the fight.

    You haven't really addressed the port speed issue. Kurt attacks incredibly fast when he is porting. He can attack so fast it seems as if he becomes multiple people attacking all at once. This is a consistent feat throughout an entire decade of X-Men comics. The chances of Dick hitting Kurt even with an AOE are extremely slim.

  6. #36
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morning View Post
    How will Kurt know when the AOE is going to hit? Assuming Dick does a duck or cartwheel or whatever after the opening attack, he could fire the tiny esoteric grenade pellet at the ground from just inches away. Why would Kurt even notice it, let alone know what it is, let alone think to port “away” when his entire battle strategy is to keep porting within melee range?
    He won't be able to do any of that without a head.

  7. #37
    Fantastic Member Morning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Basara View Post
    Why would you assume that is Kurt's strategy?
    Because in 3 pages, that is the only thing anyone on the pro-Kurt side has described. Plus, any way you look at it, he physically needs to be close enough to touch Grayson to hurt him. Sooner or later, he has to get in AOE range. And all Grayson needs to do is dodge for the split-second it takes to exploit it.

    This is a highly trained X-Man who a) was actually brave enough to take up Wolverine's offer for personal one on one training for years, and b) is also a competent field leader who led Excaliber through the 90's. Kurt is perfectly capable of feints all on his own, or just waiting for Dick to make a move.
    And so is Dick. It seems just as likely to me that either of them will fall for the other's feints and whatnot, so I'm just canceling all of that out. I assume you don't need me to read you Grayson's resume too?

    EDIT: If anything, New 52 Grayson's explicit body-reading (which extends to subconscious facial tics and has been shown to reveal people's hidden thoughts, attacks and character to varying degrees), gives him an edge on this front.

    When Dick is in mid cartwheel, duck, roll, jump, whatever, Kurt ports in and out with a limb before Dick realizes what happened. Dick cannot dodge in the middle of a dodge. It is physically impossible, even for him.
    It's not even physically impossible for me to dodge during a dodge, to some extent; so I really don't know what you're talking about. And since he can pop an AOE at the very start of his first dodge, and since you specifically said Kurt's strategy shouldn't be to continuously attack, I would think that going for that limb on the second port would be a tactical mistake.

    because a split second is literally all Kurt needs to end the fight.
    Kurt needs the time it takes to consciously choose to bamf to a given location AND the time that elapses between his disappearance and reappearance. That is, consistently throughout his publication history, enough time for peak humans to effectively aim-dodge him, at least for a moment or two. If they can anticipated where he'll reappear, a peak human can even counter him. How many times do we have to see this before we stop treating teleportation as though it were literally instantaneous?

    You haven't really addressed the port speed issue. Kurt attacks incredibly fast when he is porting. He can attack so fast it seems as if he becomes multiple people attacking all at once. This is a consistent feat throughout an entire decade of X-Men comics. The chances of Dick hitting Kurt even with an AOE are extremely slim.
    I haven't addressed it because it sounds like hyperbole. To whom has it seemed like multiple people at once? To us, the viewer, who see Kurt drawn several times into one panel and assume it must really be like he's everywhere at once--because that happens when Nightwing fights people too. It's just a convention of the medium. If it's more than that, I'm going to need to see proof (and I've been looking at Kurt's feats for this whole discussion). Because the fact is that while he can move his body throughout space very rapidly, his mind still moves at peak-human speed and his punches still move at peak-human speed.

    AT best, Kurt should be able to throw a combo at target from multiple angles as quickly as Dick can throw a combo at a target from one. That's still a big advantage, but not the total deal-breaker you make it out to be.
    Last edited by Morning; 11-15-2017 at 10:25 AM.

  8. #38
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morning View Post
    Because in 3 pages, that is the only thing anyone on the pro-Kurt side has described. Plus, any way you look at it, he physically needs to be close enough to touch Grayson to hurt him. Sooner or later, he has to get in AOE range. And all Grayson needs to do is dodge for the split-second it takes to exploit it.
    Negative.

    There are a few potential scenarios where this is simply not the case.

  9. #39
    Truth and Conviction Hazard's Avatar
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    So this is Kurt vs Sabertooth:


    Kurt can quickly port a bunch of times to hit from all sorts of different angles. Now, you can say Nightwing is faster than Sabertooth. Fine. Problem is he needs to get touched all of one time to lose a limb here. Bloodlusted Kurt is an entirely different animal from regular Kurt. For Nightwing to win, he needs to disable Kurt without getting touched even once.

    And that's just not happening most of the time.

  10. #40
    Fantastic Member Morning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    So this is Kurt vs Sabertooth:


    Kurt can quickly port a bunch of times to hit from all sorts of different angles. Now, you can say Nightwing is faster than Sabertooth. Fine. Problem is he needs to get touched all of one time to lose a limb here. Bloodlusted Kurt is an entirely different animal from regular Kurt. For Nightwing to win, he needs to disable Kurt without getting touched even once.

    And that's just not happening most of the time.
    Elsewhere in the same fight, Sabertooth proves two things conclusively:
    1) that Nightcrawler’s bamf-points can be anticipated and counter attacked by someone at least as quick as Sabertooh
    2) that Nightcrawler’s port-off-your-body-part attack can be partially dodged even after he’s already holding you by someone at least as quick as Sabertooth.

    And like I’ve said, Dick doesn’t have to evade for long. If he can avoid getting touched for about a second, he can catch an attacking Nightcrawler in an AOE stun and finish him off with a sticky bomb before things get any more dangerous.
    Last edited by Morning; 11-15-2017 at 07:37 PM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morning View Post
    Elsewhere in the same fight, Sabertooth proves two things conclusively:
    1) that Nightcrawler’s bamf-points can be anticipated and counter attacked by someone at least as quick as Sabertooh
    2) that Nightcrawler’s port-off-your-body-part attack can be partially dodged even after he’s already holding you by someone at least as quick as Sabertooth.

    And like I’ve said, Dick doesn’t have to evade for long. If he can avoid getting touched for about a second, he can catch an attacking Nightcrawler in an AOE stun and finish him off with a sticky bomb before things get any more dangerous.
    Yes, Dick is a peak human who can dodge a port attack sometimes. I acknowledge that. However, Nightcrawler is one of the few combatants facing Dick that can dodge an AOE attack by being suddenly elsewhere. It also takes time to launch a sonic grenade and for it to detonate.

    And if Nightcrawler is smart (and he is), he's porting in to grab Dick and porting out far away from Dick's body. So say that Dick dodges Kurt and sets off an AOE. It's just as likely that Kurt dodges the AOE. Now, it's a game of cat and mouse. Can Dick always anticipate when Kurt is going to attack? How about when he has no idea where Kurt is before Kurt ports in?

    That's why I believe a majority of these fights go to Kurt. Teleportation is too big an advantage.

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member theoneandonly's Avatar
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    well crossovers are not generally held as canon but just to get a idea relatively of how the bat family stand regarding mutants nightwing gets tagged and put out of the fight temporarily when he has a skirmish with gambit and then he and wolverine steal Batman's bat mobile despite the zillion gizmos he has installed in the car to prevent it.
    The Self is the only existing reality

  13. #43
    Truth and Conviction Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morning View Post
    And like I’ve said, Dick doesn’t have to evade for long. If he can avoid getting touched for about a second, he can catch an attacking Nightcrawler in an AOE stun and finish him off with a sticky bomb before things get any more dangerous.
    He could. Sometimes. Definitely not all and definitely not most.

    Basically, your argument is Nightwing keeps rolling natural twenties while Kurt makes no effort to dodge.

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member The Drunkard Kid's Avatar
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    He could always just 'port so that his tail (or a boot held in his hand) is going through Grayson's head/leg/torso and call it a day.

  15. #45
    Fantastic Member Morning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    He could. Sometimes. Definitely not all and definitely not most.

    Basically, your argument is Nightwing keeps rolling natural twenties while Kurt makes no effort to dodge.
    I mean, my argument is that Dick has a way to win. It’s not a stomp.

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