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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    To be fair the whole Batman vs Star Wars argument works because DC created Batman, Star Wars just fell into Marvel's lap thanks to Disney.

    Up until the Disney take over Dark Horse was publishing Star Wars books, by all accounts they were doing a very good job of it as well. I've yet to see Marvel create any Star Wars books that can compare to Dark Empire or Star Wars: Legacy.

    If Marvel and Disney keeps running Star Wars into the ground they'll eventually realise that readers can only be pushed so far before they turn away, even with their claws wrapped tightly around the Star Wars IP.
    You can say that the Star Wars titles just fell into marvels lap but it really does not change they have done a great job with them. Quality aside there is no denying the Marvel titles inn general is placing better in the charts then Dark Horse ever did. Thats just a fact. I never read Dark empire but I will take the recent Darth Vader series over most of what I have read from Dark Horse. Dark Horse did some good stuff but there are also plenty of bad older stories that have such bad art I know I am never going to be rereading those.

    I see no particular reason why Marvel would drive Star Wars into the ground before DC reaches a point where Batman will stop being AS big a seller right now. I think its unlikely that readers will continue to buy this many Batman books and one shots.

    I also see no real reason why that argument should count just because DC created Batman 75 years ago. Its not like those creators are still around either.
    Besides if Marvel were not dedicating resources like writers and artists to make these book as succesfull as they have been then that is work that would have been used on other titles.

  2. #17
    Mighty Member Cloudman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFerg714 View Post
    EDIT: Wow, there was some crazy drops in the Legacy titles.
    Deadpool- 94k->34k
    X-Men Gold- 82k->42k
    X-Men Blue- 71k->38k
    Amazing Spider-Man- 110k->53k
    Venom- 76k->26k
    Wolverine- 62k->29k
    Yikes. That's a huge dropoff for ASM. Looks like people aren't buying Legacy.
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxhilary View Post
    If Marvel's Legacy titles are going to drop back to their regular numbers after the lenticular issues, what was the point of the whole 100% of orders lenticular plan?
    Quote Originally Posted by Xelossik View Post
    Deadpool improved his sales by 4 000 (before and after Legacy)
    X-men Blue and Gold +2000 and +200

    but for most books... Legacy didn't improve sales
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudman View Post
    Yikes. That's a huge dropoff for ASM. Looks like people aren't buying Legacy.
    *Sigh* You'd think that people who follow comics would already understand this but I'll explain:

    If there were two issues of a Legacy book in October, retailers would order heavy on the initial issue and then (and this is important) because they don't know yet what the first issue will actually sell in their store (because it hasn't actually come out yet, remember) and they can't yet accurately gauge the demand for the next issue, they will order more conservatively on the second issue, more in line with what the title usually sells.

    This happens all the time when a new #1 comes out and the second issue is released in the same month. Order heavy on the first issue, more modestly on the second.

    So how Legacy is selling will not be reflected immediately. Subsequent months will tell on these titles whether retailers continue to order more, less or the same as before.

  4. #19
    Amazing Member Solid Snake's Avatar
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    These second Legacy issue drops are huge. Series are exactly on the same spot as before. Looks like Legacy is going to boost sales for only one issue per series. And I didn't spot any exceptions that stay rather high on the second Legacy issues. There isn't any, right? Now some people will come and say that the direct market is just a one of many, but even if it is like 10% of total sales, it is saying something via relative comparisons, assuming reader profiles are not different as night and day (and as a digital reader who is not living in the US, I know it isn't). So I guess it's safe to say relaunches that keeps the creative teams intact are not helpful at all. Marvel should get more prominent creative teams.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bor View Post
    You can say that the Star Wars titles just fell into marvels lap but it really does not change they have done a great job with them. Quality aside there is no denying the Marvel titles inn general is placing better in the charts then Dark Horse ever did. Thats just a fact. I never read Dark empire but I will take the recent Darth Vader series over most of what I have read from Dark Horse. Dark Horse did some good stuff but there are also plenty of bad older stories that have such bad art I know I am never going to be rereading those.

    I see no particular reason why Marvel would drive Star Wars into the ground before DC reaches a point where Batman will stop being AS big a seller right now. I think its unlikely that readers will continue to buy this many Batman books and one shots.

    I also see no real reason why that argument should count just because DC created Batman 75 years ago. Its not like those creators are still around either.
    Besides if Marvel were not dedicating resources like writers and artists to make these book as succesfull as they have been then that is work that would have been used on other titles.
    Yes, Batman "fell into" DC's lap as much as Star Wars has fallen into Marvel's.

    It's not as though - especially in the case of Batman, obviously - that any of the original creators are working at DC or Marvel. These are intellectual properties that are being managed by their corporate owners. How they got there makes no difference.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solid Snake View Post
    These second Legacy issue drops are huge. Series are exactly on the same spot as before. Looks like Legacy is going to boost sales for only one issue per series. And I didn't spot any exceptions that stay rather high on the second Legacy issues. There isn't any, right? Now some people will come and say that the direct market is just a one of many, but even if it is like 10% of total sales, it is saying something via relative comparisons, assuming reader profiles are not different as night and day (and as a digital reader who is not living in the US, I know it isn't). So I guess it's safe to say relaunches that keeps the creative teams intact are not helpful at all. Marvel should get more prominent creative teams.
    See the post above yours.

    Those second issue drops aren't "drops" in that they don't reflect sales of the previous issue. Retailers buying two issues of a title in one month are essentially ordering blind and will, naturally, go big on one and play it safer on the second until they know what the actual in-store demand is.

  7. #22
    Amazing Member Solid Snake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    See the post above yours.

    Those second issue drops aren't "drops" in that they don't reflect sales of the previous issue. Retailers buying two issues of a title in one month are essentially ordering blind and will, naturally, go big on one and play it safer on the second until they know what the actual in-store demand is.
    Fair point, but do retailers order a month's issues on advance in a one batch or can they make more than one orders in a month? I mean what is their ordering period? If the period is a month, then you are right and thanks for the info. Next month's sales for these series will show the actual effect of Legacy then, even though I'm pretty sure it will be no different than this.

  8. #23
    Mighty Member Cloudman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    *Sigh* You'd think that people who follow comics would already understand this but I'll explain:

    If there were two issues of a Legacy book in October, retailers would order heavy on the initial issue and then (and this is important) because they don't know yet what the first issue will actually sell in their store (because it hasn't actually come out yet, remember) and they can't yet accurately gauge the demand for the next issue, they will order more conservatively on the second issue, more in line with what the title usually sells.

    This happens all the time when a new #1 comes out and the second issue is released in the same month. Order heavy on the first issue, more modestly on the second.

    So how Legacy is selling will not be reflected immediately. Subsequent months will tell on these titles whether retailers continue to order more, less or the same as before.
    Fundamentally, if retailers aren't buying large quantities of the second issues, then that's because they don't expect to sell them. Comic shops are more than capable of gauging interest for books in advance. Evidently they don't have much faith in Legacy to deliver a consistent sales boost.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudman View Post
    Fundamentally, if retailers aren't buying large quantities of the second issues, then that's because they don't expect to sell them. Comic shops are more than capable of gauging interest for books in advance. Evidently they don't have much faith in Legacy to deliver a consistent sales boost.
    This is how retailers always order when there's a #1 and a #2 within the same month. Always. They only have so much money to spend up front on books.

    And if stores didn't have any faith in Legacy titles selling, they wouldn't have bothered to order big on the first issues to begin with.

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    This is how retailers always order when there's a #1 and a #2 within the same month. Always. They only have so much money to spend up front on books.

    And if stores didn't have any faith in Legacy titles selling, they wouldn't have bothered to order big on the first issues to begin with.
    These numbers include the special covers, which are often sold at a higher price to make up for the investment.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    To be fair the whole Batman vs Star Wars argument works because DC created Batman, Star Wars just fell into Marvel's lap thanks to Disney.
    But Marvel had to create their specific comics in their Star Wars line. They have and are reprinting old Dark Horse stuff, but over three-fourths of the Star Wars comics are new original work. Whether they created the original concept doesn't really factor into whether they deserve credit for making it work. In other words, the Star Wars vs. Batman doesn't work.

    (Also, for what it's worth, Marvel did create the original Star Wars comic series, so, in a sense, they've regained a comic series they helped create.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    Up until the Disney take over Dark Horse was publishing Star Wars books, by all accounts they were doing a very good job of it as well. I've yet to see Marvel create any Star Wars books that can compare to Dark Empire or Star Wars: Legacy.
    The first Darth Vader and Doctor Aphra series have been some of the best Star Wars tie-ins in years, IMHO (the latter has been the Star Wars comics' breakout character). (To be totally fair, my experience with Dark Horse has been extremely limited, so others who've had more experience with both might make a better comparision,

    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    If Marvel and Disney keeps running Star Wars into the ground they'll eventually realise that readers can only be pushed so far before they turn away, even with their claws wrapped tightly around the Star Wars IP.
    Can't speak for general comics readers, but as a Star Wars fan, I can vouch that the Force is with Marvel. I have read a lot of Star Wars tie-ins, so when I say that Marvel's stuff is above average in terms of quality in the franchise, I do know what I'm talking about.
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  12. #27
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    Pardon my ignorance

    Are these retailers purchases or customers purchases?

  13. #28
    Mighty Member Cloudman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kilderkin View Post
    Pardon my ignorance

    Are these retailers purchases or customers purchases?
    Retailers'.
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  14. #29
    Incredible Member suemorphplus209's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    To be fair the whole Batman vs Star Wars argument works because DC created Batman, Star Wars just fell into Marvel's lap thanks to Disney.

    Up until the Disney take over Dark Horse was publishing Star Wars books, by all accounts they were doing a very good job of it as well. I've yet to see Marvel create any Star Wars books that can compare to Dark Empire or Star Wars: Legacy.

    If Marvel and Disney keeps running Star Wars into the ground they'll eventually realise that readers can only be pushed so far before they turn away, even with their claws wrapped tightly around the Star Wars IP.
    Marvel did the original comics for Indiana Jones and Star Wars, they got the rights back after a while in the hands of other publishers. I will say that while I am late on the Marvel/Star Wars bandwagon, Marvel and the current creators at Lucasfilm haven't been all that bad in the sense that they have made some good stories with Darth Vader, for one, or the moves like coming up with a canon interpretation of Grand Admiral Thrawn on Rebels, who was arguably the best, or at least among the best, of what we had in the old Expanded Universe. The old continuity with Dark Horse had its time, but it was going to go back to Marvel. The piece by piece prequel story arcs about Darth Vader so far have been decent, IMO. Dark Empire was okay, IMO, but the repeated cloning of the Emperor made me care less and less about him as a character outside of the movies.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudman View Post
    Retailers'.

    Thanks

    Do we have any way of knowing actual sales to consumers even for older dates?

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