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  1. #796
    Death becomes you Osiris-Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJBopp View Post
    they list everyone because the unions have properly insisted on it, for the most part.
    I guess the people that make movies have a stronger union than the people that make TV shows then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    But "good writing, character development, acting, and general movie construction" all take time for each character. When you do an ensemble movie that introduces multiple new characters, you have to use screen time to establish each one. If the heroes have already had a solo movie, then most of that work is already done and the audience is invested in the characters before the team movie starts. That gives you more time to set up the villain, plot, character interactions, and other fun stuff.

    Marvel may not have thought of this leading up to the Avengers, but that is the result. All of the heroes, the villain, and some of the supporting characters had all been introduced in previous movies. Hawkeye had the least development going into the first Avengers and he was also the character worst served.

    Guardians of the Galaxy has characters that have a much simpler backstory and motivations. And they much more similar than the Avengers characters.

    The X-Men movies are notorious for only focusing on a few characters and having the rest as wallpaper. Ask fans of the X-Men comics how happy they are with the big screen version of Storm or Cyclops.
    Star Wars is another example of a movie with multiple characters that didn't need an individual movie to set them up. It told a great story and we got to know the character that way. And WB did have solo movies
    for Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman prior to Justice League but it still didn't help. Having Aquaman, Flash, and Cyborg with solo movies first wasn't going to make that much difference. If Batman, Superman and
    Wonder Women didn't draw people in, why do you think knowing the intimate details of Cyborg would? What more did we really need to know? He got in an accident and his father found a magical device that turned
    him into a half robot/half man thing.

  2. #797
    The Kid 80sbaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    Star Wars is another example of a movie with multiple characters that didn't need an individual movie to set them up. It told a great story and we got to know the character that way. And WB did have solo movies
    for Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman prior to Justice League but it still didn't help. Having Aquaman, Flash, and Cyborg with solo movies first wasn't going to make that much difference. If Batman, Superman and
    Wonder Women didn't draw people in, why do you think knowing the intimate details of Cyborg would? What more did we really need to know? He got in an accident and his father found a magical device that turned
    him into a half robot/half man thing.
    Star Wars, again, has characters with pretty simple backstories, though. Luke, Han & Leia aren't really all that complex, as far as their abilities/back-stories go. They all start from a similar premise, unlike Cyborg, Aquaman and Flash.

  3. #798
    Incredible Member Iron_Legion87's Avatar
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    Yea one of my gripes with Justice League is that is all felt rushed. Like the characters barely knew each other and had little time to really bond and become a team. The same could be said about the first Avengers but that film still seem to take some time to breath and allow for some character interaction and development of sorts. Plus the avengers had the benefit of have solo movies BEFORE the big team up movie so that was a big help. Like Justice League would have benefited more if each of the members already had their own solo movie and the audience was already familiar with them. That way, Justice League could have more time for other things.

  4. #799
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    I guess the people that make movies have a stronger union than the people that make TV shows then.



    Star Wars is another example of a movie with multiple characters that didn't need an individual movie to set them up. It told a great story and we got to know the character that way. And WB did have solo movies
    for Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman prior to Justice League but it still didn't help. Having Aquaman, Flash, and Cyborg with solo movies first wasn't going to make that much difference. If Batman, Superman and
    Wonder Women didn't draw people in, why do you think knowing the intimate details of Cyborg would? What more did we really need to know? He got in an accident and his father found a magical device that turned
    him into a half robot/half man thing.
    The characters of Star Wars were 1. a boy who dreams of joining the rebellion, whose Aunt and Uncle are killed by the Empire 2. one of the leaders of the rebellion who needs to be rescued and 3. a mercenary who is paid to help rescue the leader and learns there are more important things than money. You can tell one story that introduces the characters all together.

    Same for Guardians of the Galaxy. You have 1. An Earthman turned space scavenger who wants a big payday for the McGuffin, but learns there are more important things than money 2. Deadly Assassin who is going against the man who raised her by keeping the McGuffin from him. 3. A sentient raccoon turned bounty hunter who learns there are more important things than money. 4. Groot 5. A man who wants to kill the villain trying to get the McGuffin from the others. Again, you can tell one story that introduces all the characters without any problems.

    Compare that to the Avengers where you have 1. A Norse God trying to stop his brother 2. A WWII hero that was frozen in ice for decades and just awaken 3. A scientist who turns into an unstoppable rage monster when he gets angry 4. A Russian spy/assassin who defected to the west 5. A secret agent skilled in archer 6. a genius, billionaire, playboy, philanthropist who puts on a weaponized suit of armor. These characters are so different that it is hard to introduce them all in one movie. It also had other characters that were introduced earlier like Loki (how much time in the movie was devoted to his motivations? not a lot, since they covered it in Thor), Nick Fury, Agent Coulson, and Erik Selvig.

    I believe this applies to the Justice League also. You have 1. an alien who is the last of his kind, raised on earth 2. a billionaire who wages a war on crime after his parents were killed 3. a warrior from a mythological society 4. the ruler of an underwater kingdom 5. a nerdy kid who got his powers from accident 5. another kid who was badly injured and his body is mostly machine now.

    Of those, only Superman got a solo movie. Batman (the DCEU version) was introduced as an experienced hero who spends most of his time trying to defeat Superman not in a solo movie. I think his character would have been served better in a solo movie before BvS. I do think Flash, Cyborg, and Aquaman would have benefited form solo movie introductions. We could get insight into their motivations and backgrounds that were not really provided by Justice League.

  5. #800
    Mad scientist Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Of those, only Superman got a solo movie. Batman (the DCEU version) was introduced as an experienced hero who spends most of his time trying to defeat Superman not in a solo movie. I think his character would have been served better in a solo movie before BvS. I do think Flash, Cyborg, and Aquaman would have benefited form solo movie introductions. We could get insight into their motivations and backgrounds that were not really provided by Justice League.
    Wonder Woman also got a solo movie.
    And Batman has had bunches of solo movies. And BatFleck is not really all that different from BatBale or even BatKeaton. Very different from BatClooney though.

    The main Justice League problem is that they hired Zack Snyder for Man Of steel, and this got worse over time. Wonder Woman and Suicide Squad somehow escaped being associated with his name. Justice League did not.
    Last edited by Carabas; 01-10-2018 at 11:48 AM.
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
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  6. #801
    Death becomes you Osiris-Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 80sbaby View Post
    Star Wars, again, has characters with pretty simple backstories, though. Luke, Han & Leia aren't really all that complex, as far as their abilities/back-stories go. They all start from a similar premise, unlike Cyborg, Aquaman and Flash.
    What is so complex about Flash and Cyborg's backstory? They covered that in Justice League. Flash got hit by lighting and Cyborg was in an accident so his father used a magical box to turn him into a half robot/half human thing. You don't need a 2 1/2 hour movie for each of them to tell people that. Aquaman maybe could have used more background. But I doubt if the Aquaman movie had come out first it would have mattered.
    Not knowing the intimate details of how they acquired there powers was the least of the problems Justice League had. Doing movies the Marvel way isn't the be all end all way of doing superhero movies. Marvel got lucky because all the solo movies that came before were hit movie. With DC only the three Batman movies and Wonder Woman movies were critically acclaimed. Man of Steel was panned and Batman v Superman was worse. So giving Superman two movies prior didn't benefit him. There was no guarantee a Flash, Cyborg, or Aquaman movie wouldn't bomb either. Then what does WB do? We already knew enough about Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman that they should have been able to carry the movie on their own without needing three more solo movies to pave the way.

  7. #802
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Wonder Woman also got a solo movie.
    And Batman has had bunches of solo movies. And BatFleck is not really all that different from BatBale or even BatKeaton. Very different from BatClooney though.

    The main Justice League problem is that they hired Zack Snyder for Man Of steel, and this got worse over time. Wonder Woman and Suicide Squad somehow escaped being associated with his name. Justice League did not.
    I think BatFleck is different in that he wants and tries very hard to kill Superman. Throwing in a dead sidekick and brutal methods (including branding criminals) makes him different from Keaton or Bale.

    I'm not a fan of Snyder and think his style has hurt the DCEU, but he is not the only significant problem for the DCEU.

  8. #803
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    What is so complex about Flash and Cyborg's backstory? They covered that in Justice League. Flash got hit by lighting and Cyborg was in an accident so his father used a magical box to turn him into a half robot/half human thing. You don't need a 2 1/2 hour movie for each of them to tell people that. Aquaman maybe could have used more background. But I doubt if the Aquaman movie had come out first it would have mattered.
    Not knowing the intimate details of how they acquired there powers was the least of the problems Justice League had. Doing movies the Marvel way isn't the be all end all way of doing superhero movies. Marvel got lucky because all the solo movies that came before were hit movie. With DC only the three Batman movies and Wonder Woman movies were critically acclaimed. Man of Steel was panned and Batman v Superman was worse. So giving Superman two movies prior didn't benefit him. There was no guarantee a Flash, Cyborg, or Aquaman movie wouldn't bomb either. Then what does WB do? We already knew enough about Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman that they should have been able to carry the movie on their own without needing three more solo movies to pave the way.
    It gets complex when you start throwing in things like Barry's dad being in jail for killing his wife, or Cyborg's relationship with his father. These plot points take time away from a movie that is already got length issues due to the 2 hour cut edicts from the studio.

    Marvel may have gotten lucky and stumbled into a winning rollout method, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a winning method. The DCEU method has been much less successful.

    And if DC has trouble producing solo films, perhaps they should figure out how to make a successful solo movie. They should do that instead of going for an ensemble movie and discover that they have trouble making those too.

  9. #804
    Mad scientist Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    I think BatFleck is different in that he wants and tries very hard to kill Superman. Throwing in a dead sidekick and brutal methods (including branding criminals) makes him different from Keaton or Bale.
    He grows out of it by the end of the movie.

    And BatFleck has got nothing on Keaton, who was almost Joker-Lite at times, smiles and all.
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
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  10. #805
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AJBopp View Post
    they list everyone because the unions have properly insisted on it, for the most part.
    I guess the people that make movies have a stronger union than the people that make TV shows then.
    I've sometimes wondered if there's also a difference in how much outsourced labor/services there are involved in a major film versus a TV production unit. I would imagine that credit is part of their compensation in such cases.

  11. #806
    Astonishing Member AJBopp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    I guess the people that make movies have a stronger union than the people that make TV shows
    http://m.eonline.com/news/58108/why-...redits-so-long

    And no, TV union people are pretty strong too. TV credits are much longer than they were 50 years ago, so much so that they have to fly by so fast you can't read them. Compare today's credits on Flash with those on 1966 Wild Wild West.
    Last edited by AJBopp; 01-10-2018 at 04:10 PM.
    Why yes, I AM a Mark Goodson/Bill Toddman production.

  12. #807
    Spectacular Member GhostPirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    But "good writing, character development, acting, and general movie construction" all take time for each character. When you do an ensemble movie that introduces multiple new characters, you have to use screen time to establish each one. If the heroes have already had a solo movie, then most of that work is already done and the audience is invested in the characters before the team movie starts. That gives you more time to set up the villain, plot, character interactions, and other fun stuff.

    Marvel may not have thought of this leading up to the Avengers, but that is the result. All of the heroes, the villain, and some of the supporting characters had all been introduced in previous movies. Hawkeye had the least development going into the first Avengers and he was also the character worst served.
    Except they don't. It's an economy of storytelling. Good filmmakers can show who a character is through their actions, their interactions, express them through dialogue, their use (or lack of) humor, etc. Ensemble films existed long before the Avengers, the shared universe phenomenon, and the rise of CBMs, and great characters had been developed through these methods, from Seven Samurai/Magnificent Seven to Jaws, the Dirty Dozen, Alien/Aliens/Predator to the original Star Wars films, among many, many others, all along the way.

    In addition, DC didn't need to follow the MCU formula because the companies had such divergent histories. WB has kept so many of their characters in pop culture relevance for so long through various feature films, network tv series and popular cartoons that much of their work had, in fact, been done prior to the DCEU. Marvel had not. Their focus had tended toward Spider-Man, Hulk, the X-Men and FF, all properties the MCU were unable to utilize... and the general audience didn't have the sort of familiarity with Iron Man, Thor and Captain America that they had with Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash and Aquaman. Even Cyborg has had recent exposure through first the Teen Titans, then the TT:G cartoon series; not much compared to the rest, but the fact remains that even cartoons have relevance for building character visibility, as everyone has been a kid at some point in their lives, many children grow up watching cartoons to some extent, being made aware of ones they don't actively watch, and even their parents (at least the responsible ones) tend to have some familiarity with the shows their kids are watching, through buying toys and other merchandise if nothing else.

    Guardians of the Galaxy has characters that have a much simpler backstory and motivations. And they much more similar than the Avengers characters.
    I'd actually argue the Guardians have, by and large, both individually and as a group, much more complex characters, backstories, and motivations than any of the characters in JL. Once again, it was economy of storytelling, as opposed to the DCEU's favored method of alternating between long expositional dumps and big action sequences, that made it feel different.

    The X-Men movies are notorious for only focusing on a few characters and having the rest as wallpaper. Ask fans of the X-Men comics how happy they are with the big screen version of Storm or Cyclops.
    I don't entirely disagree, as I've long been outspoken for my disappointment with the X-franchise. That said, they still managed to introduce and develop at least a handful of much less iconic characters than DC brought to the table without having to resort to introductory solo films.

    Characterization =/= having to know all the minutiae of every individual characters origins and full backstory. As far as I'm concerned, this necessity to know every step of a characters life story is what has diminished once interesting characters like Wolverine and Joker, by removing the air of mystery and replacing it with overly convoluted mundanity. I feel the same way about character development on the big and small screen as well. YMMV.
    Last edited by GhostPirate; 01-10-2018 at 06:29 PM.

  13. #808
    Astonishing Member AJBopp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostPirate View Post
    WB has kept so many of their characters in pop culture relevance for so long through various feature films, network tv series and popular cartoons that much of their work had, in fact, been done prior to the DCEU.
    There is no work that had been done in pop culture to give insight into this version of Superman or, to a large extent, Batman. Nothing had been done to give the audience a familiarity with this Lex Luthor or even Wonder Woman. Audiences might know the names, but the characters are completely unfamiliar - as intended, so that the creators could tell their own story with them.

    And what did they do with Steppenwolf, the one character who lacks even name recognition? Nothing at all. They made a big dumb creature with no story whatsoever, whose only narrative purpose seems to be to show how much the Justice League is irrelevant without (and even with) Superman.
    Why yes, I AM a Mark Goodson/Bill Toddman production.

  14. #809
    Astonishing Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 80sbaby View Post
    Star Wars, again, has characters with pretty simple backstories, though. Luke, Han & Leia aren't really all that complex, as far as their abilities/back-stories go. They all start from a similar premise, unlike Cyborg, Aquaman and Flash.
    Exactly. Luke, Han and Leia all start as part of the same story. Luke and Leia basically have an intertwined background and Han really has no background in the movies other than he's a pirate with a heart of gold and there's a smuggler after him.

    But Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and the others are not part of the same story. They exist in the same world, sure, and in the earliest stories, even that really wasn't true. Superman and Wonder Woman are not Luke and Leia. There's really no connection. They are two separate stories.

    You don't need to introduce Sherlock Holmes in one movie and Dr. Watson in another and then have the movie where they meet because a main theme of the stories has always been the two of them meeting and working together. But Superman and Batman are another story. The main theme of each character is a separate story.

    Of course, the main reason for the setup movies is because that's how Marvel did it and they are trying to copy that success, key word being copy. At the same time, they rushed it and didn't do hardly any actual setup.
    Superman was a beacon to the world. He didnít just save people, he made them see the best part of themselves.

  15. #810
    Death becomes you Osiris-Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    Exactly. Luke, Han and Leia all start as part of the same story. Luke and Leia basically have an intertwined background and Han really has no background in the movies other than he's a pirate with a heart of gold and there's a smuggler after him.

    But Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and the others are not part of the same story. They exist in the same world, sure, and in the earliest stories, even that really wasn't true. Superman and Wonder Woman are not Luke and Leia. There's really no connection. They are two separate stories.

    You don't need to introduce Sherlock Holmes in one movie and Dr. Watson in another and then have the movie where they meet because a main theme of the stories has always been the two of them meeting and working together. But Superman and Batman are another story. The main theme of each character is a separate story.

    Of course, the main reason for the setup movies is because that's how Marvel did it and they are trying to copy that success, key word being copy. At the same time, they rushed it and didn't do hardly any actual setup.
    In regards to the Justice League movie Superman, Flash, Batman, Cyborg, Wonder Woman are as much part of the story as Captain Nemo, Mr. Hyde, Tom Sawyer, Allan Quitermain, Dorien Grey,
    the Invisible Man and Mina Harker are in The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, to cite another movie using characters well known in literature that were brought together in a team up movie
    without prior solo movies. All you need to do is throw together a team of well know names and send them off on a mission. The story should take care of the rest.

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