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  1. #16
    For honor... Madam-Shogun-Assassin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    Really, most of these arguments boil down to an excuse to wash your hands of someone or something as an 'intractable problem' so one doesn't need to do anything about it. We want excuses to not dwell on the scope of the problem.
    Took the words right out pf my mouth! Like it was already pointed out a lot of homeless people are actually families that hit hard times due to unforeseeable situations, or situations that was hard to get out of. These aren't drug addicts, or veterans and hobos with mental illness. The latter is a prevailing stereotype that tries to marginalize the problem to just being about crazy people and addicts "who wants to be homeless".

  2. #17
    Formerly Blackdragon6 Emperor-of-Dragons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    Really, most of these arguments boil down to an excuse to wash your hands of someone or something as an 'intractable problem' so one doesn't need to do anything about it. We want excuses to not dwell on the scope of the problem.
    I feel like people dismissing the idea of homeless families and kids is a microcosm of this attitude. I have seen A LOT of homeless families with little kids in shelters. I feel that people intentionally overlook that so they can rationalize not wanting to help. "Oh they're just mentally ill vets and druggies that want to be homeless". It's this perception that causes people to donate their money to helping foreign kids, rather than American kids. They think American kids are better off, except they're not. Kids in certain places within America needs just as much help has a kid in Malawi. I feel like rich liberal/celebrities are donating to the wrong causes.

  3. #18
    Ultimate Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madam-Shogun-Assassin View Post
    Took the words right out pf my mouth! Like it was already pointed out a lot of homeless people are actually families that hit hard times due to unforeseeable situations, or situations that was hard to get out of. These aren't drug addicts, or veterans and hobos with mental illness. The latter is a prevailing stereotype that tries to marginalize the problem to just being about crazy people and addicts "who wants to be homeless".
    Indeed. It is simply a manifestation of the desire to assign blame to those who are already poor. We would rather shame and debase them in our discourse, make them pee in cups, 'prove' they're the 'worthy' poor. Worthy of help, but never worthy of dignity and respect. They dpn't 'deserve' that because their own incorrect decisions brought them there. Rather, they need to be 'punished'. Poor? You can't have a chocolate cake. How dare you consider spending on that! Poor? How dare you try to treat your family to a seafood dinner. Our society is replete with examples of shaming the poor for pretty much anything they do to try to enjoy their lives while being impoverished.

    Once you are forced to acknowledge that this is a large problem, that it is unfair, that these people need help, that there are problems, it becomes much harder to live a comfortable, day to day life and think of yourself as a good person while one does nothing.

  4. #19
    Astonishing Member Trey Strain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy Diamond View Post
    The cellphones that are given are the equivalent of basic burner phones. The same people who talk about 'lazy' also complain that you can't get work. How the fuck are you supposed to work in this day and age if people can not communicate with you by phone? Most of the tax money (which is really the state taking its cut after your employer does) is spent on killing people here and over seas, bailing out failing companies, and empowering the state to further defend capital. This is shown every time the federal budget is released. The spending on social services is a drop in the bucket in comparision and it is done because the contradictions of capitalism require some level of mediation hence welfare programs.

    The ones who do the most complaining don't say anything about the tax credits they get for say being married or having solar panels or a home office. They don't complain when billions are given to bail out banks. But a single mom trying to get buy is what angers them? Come on.
    Obamaphones, as they're called, don't shoot videos or have internet access. They're just phones, nothing else.

    People who scream about paying taxes are very glad to have roads, schools, law enforcement, fire and ambulance service and the countless other things that taxes provide. They just don't want to pay taxes.

  5. #20
    Amazing Member Adam Allen's Avatar
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    An easy thought experiment, for anybody who thinks that all anyone has to do is try hard enough and/or make the right decisions, then they won't be poor: What if absolutely, 100% of the people really did everything right, worked hard, and made all the right decisions? Then what? Would there be no more poor people?

    The heart of the problem is that there has to be some poor people; even if everybody is equally worthy, even if everybody tries equally hard. The system requires that imbalance; the only way we can concentrate wealth in one area is to deprive wealth elsewhere. This is why criticism of poor neighborhoods is bullshit. Those neighborhoods exist because they are part of a larger economic system. This is true even on the worldwide stage; poverty in "third world" countries is exploited, to the benefit of the rest of us.

    The really hard question is, what are we really prepared to give up, to set it right?

    Well, personally I feel like I could give up quite a lot ... but then, I suppose the even harder question really, is where do you even start? How do you break the system, when there is so much and so many committed to keeping it going?
    Last edited by Adam Allen; 11-26-2017 at 03:55 PM.
    We've got the power to be loving each other, no matter what happens -- we've got the power to do that

  6. #21
    Swollen Member GOLGO 13's Avatar
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    President Lyndon B. Johnson once said, "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."

    This is what Republicans are all about. Money, racism & keeping down/control the rest of lower classes.

  7. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Allen View Post
    An easy thought experiment, for anybody who thinks that all anyone has to do is try hard enough and/or make the right decisions, then they won't be poor: What if absolutely, 100% of the people really did everything right, worked hard, and made all the right decisions? Then what? Would there be no more poor people?

    The heart of the problem is that there has to be some poor people; even if everybody is equally worthy, even if everybody tries equally hard. The system requires that imbalance; the only way we can concentrate wealth in one area is to deprive wealth elsewhere. This is why criticism of poor neighborhoods is bullshit. Those neighborhoods exist because they are part of a larger economic system. This is true even on the worldwide stage; poverty in "third world" countries is exploited, to the benefit of the rest of us.

    The really hard question is, what are we really prepared to give up, to set it right?

    Well, personally I feel like I could give up quite a lot ... but then, I suppose the even harder question really, is where do you even start? How do you break the system, when there is so much and so many committed to keeping it going?
    If everyone tried really hard, worked hard, and made all the right decisions, it would go a long way towards reducing poverty.

    There probably has to be a distinction between the American poor, and the global poor, since the former have more money and resources than the latter (and much of this discussion is about the poor in western industrialized countries that compose the majority of CBR readers and would be the only homeless we interact with) but things would be better if the poor stopped wasting their limited resources, invested what they could, were willing to move to new regions with more favorable economic environments, etc.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  8. #23
    formerly edhopper Kirby101's Avatar
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    Mets, I would suggest you read The Grapes of Wrath.
    With Great Power, yadda, yadda, yadda....

  9. #24
    Ultimate Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    If everyone tried really hard, worked hard, and made all the right decisions, it would go a long way towards reducing poverty.

    There probably has to be a distinction between the American poor, and the global poor, since the former have more money and resources than the latter (and much of this discussion is about the poor in western industrialized countries that compose the majority of CBR readers and would be the only homeless we interact with) but things would be better if the poor stopped wasting their limited resources, invested what they could, were willing to move to new regions with more favorable economic environments, etc.
    I gotta say I'm having a good laugh.

  10. #25
    Formerly Blackdragon6 Emperor-of-Dragons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Allen View Post
    An easy thought experiment, for anybody who thinks that all anyone has to do is try hard enough and/or make the right decisions, then they won't be poor: What if absolutely, 100% of the people really did everything right, worked hard, and made all the right decisions? Then what? Would there be no more poor people?
    Outside context problems happen. Someone gets sick, someone get laid off, sometimes of out of nowhere problems happens. Even then, most low income people couldn't avoid them even if they saw it coming. For example impending evictions, me and my sister just saw something completely heartbreaking this morning outside in our apartment complex's parking lot. Basically we saw people's furniture sitting outside, couches, microwave, etc...I see this A LOT. more so than usual in the past few years.
    Last edited by Emperor-of-Dragons; 11-28-2017 at 02:03 PM.

  11. #26
    Boisterously Confused
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    Among the wealthy, the logic is that there's no way for people with less to get more without somehow taking it from the wealthy.

    Among the middle class, and even the poor, there's often a religious element to it: God wouldn't let them be poor unless it's His Will, for whatever reason.

  12. #27
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Allen View Post
    An easy thought experiment, for anybody who thinks that all anyone has to do is try hard enough and/or make the right decisions, then they won't be poor: What if absolutely, 100% of the people really did everything right, worked hard, and made all the right decisions? Then what? Would there be no more poor people?

    The heart of the problem is that there has to be some poor people; even if everybody is equally worthy, even if everybody tries equally hard. The system requires that imbalance; the only way we can concentrate wealth in one area is to deprive wealth elsewhere. This is why criticism of poor neighborhoods is bullshit. Those neighborhoods exist because they are part of a larger economic system. This is true even on the worldwide stage; poverty in "third world" countries is exploited, to the benefit of the rest of us.

    The really hard question is, what are we really prepared to give up, to set it right?

    Well, personally I feel like I could give up quite a lot ... but then, I suppose the even harder question really, is where do you even start? How do you break the system, when there is so much and so many committed to keeping it going?
    Well said.

  13. #28
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    The poor and homeless just need a pep talk from the spunky kid in Tomorrowland! That'll solve everything...won't it?

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor-of-Dragons View Post
    People also tend to have the habit of downplaying homelessness, by framing them as the stereotypical wino vet, with mental illness. I was homeless and there's TONS of actual families out there, with little kids no less. They parents even have jobs. They're called the working poor.
    I can second this as I speak to many in that position in my job.

    I like how everybody in this thread who is complaining about lazy screw ups and the like have outright ignored your statement and its implications.

    Finger pointing is way easier that addressing the disappearance of the manufacturing sector and the implications of same.
    Last edited by Vic Vega; 11-29-2017 at 08:27 AM.

  15. #30
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Allen View Post
    The heart of the problem is that there has to be some poor people; even if everybody is equally worthy, even if everybody tries equally hard. The system requires that imbalance; the only way we can concentrate wealth in one area is to deprive wealth elsewhere. This is why criticism of poor neighborhoods is bullshit. Those neighborhoods exist because they are part of a larger economic system. This is true even on the worldwide stage; poverty in "third world" countries is exploited, to the benefit of the rest of us.
    Nailed it. The concept of 'winners' and 'losers' drives practically everything. Can't have one without the other. So you either change that paradigm, decide to be a winner no matter what, or find some balance in the middle to live out your existence (most of us).
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

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